The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

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Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#481
Nov 22, 2015
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The failure to "see" our union in Christ in our inner man is what causes this self-effort works based living that is really doing things in our flesh....."we" are doing .."we" are doing the righteous deeds..so "we" are righteous.....that is different then "seeing ourselves in Christ" and letting His life flow through and in us to do good deeds/works...

Hence = self-focused or Christ-focused....big difference between the two mindsets...

Willie-T said:
Now, THERE is some real gnostic thinking.
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Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
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Nov 22, 2015
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2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord,are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

It's when we are beholding Christ that we see ourselves as in a mirror...we see who we are in Him and this "seeing' changes us.....from glory to glory....

are being transformed - present tense ( which means continuous action ) passive voice = the action is happening to you - not US doing it..
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

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Feb 7, 2015
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For those not familiar with the term, Docetism was a Gnostic heresy--that was condemned by the Early Church--with several variations concerning the nature of Christ. Generally, it taught that Jesus only appeared to have a body and that He was not really incarnate (Greek, "dokeo" = "to seem"). This error developed out of the dualistic philosophy which viewed matter as inherently evil and that God could not be associated with matter. ("Matter", meaning human flesh......... Basically, "us.")
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#485
#485
Legalism is more in agreement with the gnostic ideas, when you really think about what they believed ...they did not believe in the sinfulness of the flesh..... MANY legalist, don't really believe the flesh is sinful and think to justify themselves by the flesh.
 
InSpiritInTruth

InSpiritInTruth

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#487
Jan 7, 2015
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FreeNChrist said:
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." Romans 8:9
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And that is the question. If you are not truly born again of the Holy Spirit then you are still in the flesh, and in sin. You cannot be "in sin" and also "in Christ" at the same time. So prove yourselves by sin, even by the thoughts of your own mind.


But I also know by the Spirit of Truth if a person is truly abiding "in Christ"; as we shall know them not only by their actions, but also by their words and doctrine=fruits. Because if a person speaks contrary to the words of God, then "the Truth" is not "in them" and neither is Christ "in them". God's Word is Truth, just as the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. No lie is of the Truth, just as those who are living "in sin" are of the Devil.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#488
Nov 22, 2015
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I listened to Dr. Brown's talk against the gnostic view put forth here. He said Gnosticism was just starting back then when John wrote his epistle and it became full blown by a 100 years later.

I reflected on that and all heresy has it's roots in truth. The apostles were preaching that our inner man..our new creation in Christ was circumcised from our flesh. Paul called it the circumcision of Christ..of the flesh and of the heart. Basically it's 2 sides of the same coin. This "apparent" schism from the body gives rise to all sorts of thoughts and in the unregenerate man - strange stuff can come out of that.

We are starting to see our new man in Christ and our union with Him now and so the "gnostic thinking " accusation is coming back.

It's kinda the same principal as people calling grace believers that we are saying it's ok to sin all we want. Paul was accused of the same thing. My point is we can always tell what is being preached by the opposition that comes against it
 
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HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#489
Sep 4, 2012
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Mitspa said:
Legalism is more in agreement with the gnostic ideas, when you really think about what they believed ...they did not believe in the sinfulness of the flesh..... MANY legalist, don't really believe the flesh is sinful and think to justify themselves by the flesh.
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Gnostics believed their identity as spiritual beings prevented the material world from corrupting them. So it wasn't that they didn't believe in the sinfulness of the flesh; they believed the corruption of the natural world was irrelevant.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#490
Sep 4, 2012
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Grace777x70 said:
It's when we are beholding Christ that we see ourselves as in a mirror...we see who we are in Him and this "seeing' changes us.....from glory to glory....
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This is where you have it exactly wrong. We see him, and he changes us. Not we see who we are in him, and that knowledge changes us.

What you are describing is no different than the gnostics thinking their gnosis (awareness, identity) changed them.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#491
#491
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Gnostics believed their identity as spiritual beings prevented the material world from corrupting them. So it wasn't that they didn't believe in the sinfulness of the flesh; they believed the corruption of the natural world was irrelevant.
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Its the same concept ..to deny what the law is really saying ..that all men are guilty before God. The gnostics did not hear the law ..legalist do not hear the law. I would also add that your defining gnostic beliefs according to this one statement ...I suggest you do a more in depth study...this I did years ago and cant remember all the details but it was clear to me at the time that gnostics had much more in common with legalism than those that believed in Gods Grace .. The whole foundation of the doctrines of grace are based on the wretchedness of every mans flesh and that salvation MUST come by the grace of Christ.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#492
Sep 4, 2012
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Mitspa said:
Its the same concept ..to deny what the law is really saying ..that all men are guilty before God. The gnostics did not hear the law ..legalist do not hear the law. I would also add that your defining gnostic beliefs according to this one statement ...I suggest you do a more in depth study...this I did years ago and cant remember all the details but it was clear to me at the time that gnostics had much more in common with legalism than those that believed in Gods Grace .. The whole foundation of the doctrines of grace are based on the wretchedness of every mans flesh and that salvation MUST come by the grace of Christ.
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I'm not really interested in broadly studying what gnostics believed, because gnosticism was a genre of rebellious thought that manifested itself in numerous, various ways; it was not a monolithic doctrine.

The writings of Irenaeus that I posted in the OP demonstrate that the gnostic manifestation during his time was virtually identical (in some regards) with what we're seeing today in new.modern.hyper grace.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#493
#493
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
I'm not really interested in broadly studying what gnostics believed, because gnosticism was a genre of rebellious thought that manifested itself in numerous, various ways; it was not a monolithic doctrine.

The writings of Irenaeus that I posted in the OP demonstrate that the gnostic manifestation during his time was virtually identical (in some regards) with what we're seeing today in new.modern.hyper grace.
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Well if your going to accuse others of gnostic thought...I think you should take the time to study out the issue....don't you?
And Irenaeus himself is accused of heresy ...and there is no evidence he was a direct student of John .... You could say he was one of the first to try to bring power into the Roman church... This mans writings cannot be trusted as evidence for sound doctrine. The scriptures teach the wretchedness of the flesh and the absolute need for the Grace of Christ. Irenaeus is nothing


I would also add that I have defended the holiness that comes with true grace ...more than anyone on this forum. But have done it in the context that grace is only way and real grace has real power to conform believers into the Image of Christ.
 
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PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#494
Feb 24, 2015
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Grace777x70 said:
This is what the "scriptures " say about the believer having a new heart. to deny we have a new heart and spirit in us is to deny the new creation in Christ.
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Jesus called being born of the Spirit, being born again, not born new. It is a change of the very foundation of who we are.
God has made us into a new creation in Christ. Every christian this happens to, it is not a question of denying it, it is merely how we come into the Kingdom.
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

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#495
Feb 24, 2015
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Grace777x70 said:
The failure to "see" our union in Christ in our inner man is what causes this self-effort works based living
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So now faith in Jesus is not enough. You have to see our union. I read so many verses saying you must see the union to walk in Jesus. No. Just walk, obey, exercise the love Jesus has given you. It is so simple even young christians know how to do it. It is instinctive of new borns. But oddly gnostic views start to say you need the knowledge to be right.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#496
#496
PeterJens said:
So now faith in Jesus is not enough. You have to see our union. I read so many verses saying you must see the union to walk in Jesus. No. Just walk, obey, exercise the love Jesus has given you. It is so simple even young christians know how to do it. It is instinctive of new borns. But oddly gnostic views start to say you need the knowledge to be right.
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Grow in grace and knowledge ...knowledge of Christ through the Word of God ..is in no way a gnostic concept.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#497
Sep 4, 2012
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#497
Mitspa said:
Well if your going to accuse others of gnostic thought...I think you should take the time to study out the issue....don't you?
And Irenaeus himself is accused of heresy ...and there is no evidence he was a direct student of John .... You could say he was one of the first to try to bring power into the Roman church... This mans writings cannot be trusted as evidence for sound doctrine. The scriptures teach the wretchedness of the flesh and the absolute need for the Grace of Christ. Irenaeus is nothing

I would also add that I have defended the holiness that comes with true grace ...more than anyone on this forum. But have done it in the context that grace is only way and real grace has real power to conform believers into the Image of Christ.
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My accusations are based on what Irenaeus wrote. I have studied it in-depth. Have you? Or are you biased by your belief that Irenaeus was accused of heresy?

His writings can be trusted to tell us what the gnostics thought. To state otherwise without evidence is extraordinarily biased. And what snippets of church doctrine they contain vis-a-vis gnostic beliefs, in no way contradict what the bible teaches about godly doctrine. So in that context, any implications of heresy on his part are meaningless.

I'm glad you're you're a defender of grace. Take a warning from me. Defending new.modern.hyper grace is not defending GOD's grace.
 
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KennethC

Guest
#498
#498
PeterJens said:
So now faith in Jesus is not enough. You have to see our union. I read so many verses saying you must see the union to walk in Jesus. No. Just walk, obey, exercise the love Jesus has given you. It is so simple even young christians know how to do it. It is instinctive of new borns. But oddly gnostic views start to say you need the knowledge to be right.
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Unity of the Holy Spirit with a believer will be seen in the way they walk and talk..........

When a person is walking in this unity they will administer loving, understanding, mercy, longsuffering, compassion, and other such traits toward others.

They will not be haughty, evil speaking of, contentious, condemning, or show any other type of malice toward others.....


That unity can be broken when a person walks contradictory to the fruit of the Holy Spirit !!!
 
RickyZ

RickyZ

Senior Member
#499
Sep 20, 2012
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FreeNChrist said:
If you're saying that your belief is a work then you are saying that your salvation as 100% false.
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And herein lay a huge part of the problem. I've repeated till I'm blue in the face that belief is not an act of works. And yet here you are thinking I said it was. When will people learn to read things with an open mind, instead of hearing what they want to hear?
 
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