The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[phil36]

Hi grace777x70,

Yes I have read the escape blog..believe me I have spent a good amount of time on it.

The article you refer to actually is a strawman, and this has been one of my points.

I know you do not disregards the words of Jesus.. Why do keep intimating that we do. What I am saying and what everyone else is saying, you make jesus's words fit your theology of exagerated grace... and you prove my very point in your first sentence

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

With all due respect, you have not proven any of that. You've taken a label and attached it to the Gospel of Grace based on what you've heard others say about what Grace preachers teach.

I don't have 'practiced talking points'. I go to Scripture to relay what I believe. You've seen me do it time and again. And have agreed with me many times. I'm asking you to take a fresh look at what Grace teachers ACTUALLY teach, and evaluate from there.

-JGIG

Sure I have. Posts 2 and 3 for starters. More to come if I can get anyone to engage me. The proof's in the pudding. They know that and they're scared.

I look at what they teach everyday. Their stuff is so full of holes, that I point it out, and it gets ignored. One thing I've noticed about this group, is that have absolutely no humility, and no desire to learn or be corrected. That's part of their mindset and training, and what Phil mentioned, that they constantly argue from the straw man of their own former disobedience. They assume everyone else is like them, and it's simply not true.

 

[Grace777x70]

it looks like self-effort in the flesh is out Grandpa...good scripture...

It can't be all about His Grace.

Our works have to be in there somewhere.

They have to be.

Right?

Philippians 3:3-9
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


"We" believe "all" of scripture. Do we?

 

[JGIG]

Well I cn assume you ahve read through the posts as you managed to pick one of mine out..nevermind..ill post again. And yes I have read the thread on 1 john, and I must say very lacking.. anyhow: there is plenty here for you to think about.
this the real issue at hand..


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. —1 John 1:9
That is one of the first verses many new Christians memorize — and rightly so. It holds forth the comforting promise of forgiveness and cleansing for all of us who have struggled with guilt in this sin-stained world. Yet there are some today who, because they fail to comprehend the extent of divine forgiveness, deny the clear teaching of 1 John 1:9 and teach other to do the same. They say that to pray for forgiveness reveals unbelief. After all, a healthy Christian doesn't experience guilt because he understands Christ's total forgiveness. Why seek forgiveness when you already have it?
However, their guilt-free brand of Christianity not only burdens guilty people with more guilt, but also strips away the only means to alleviate the guilt of sin-confession. Rather than helping Christians draw near to God, they are reinforcing the barrier of sin that interrupts their relationship with God. But that's not the end of the story.
The Bible clearly teaches that Christians should seek forgiveness. Consider this:
- In each one of the penitential psalms (Ps. 6; 32; 38; 51; 102; 130; 143), the psalmist is demonstrating the heart of a justified believer when he seeks forgiveness. In each case the psalmist is already a believer, fully forgiven.
- In the gospels, Christ taught believers to ask the Father to forgive their sins (Matt. 6:12; Mark 11:25; Luke 11:4). Some of those to whom He spoke were already born again. In 1 John 1, the verb tenses show that confession and forgiveness should be a continuous experience. Verse 7 literally reads, "The blood of Jesus His Son keeps cleansing us from all sin," and verse 9 likewise says, "If we are continually confessing our sins." Those to whom John wrote were already fully forgiven believers (cf. 5:13).
But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).
Let me show you the difference:
- Judicial forgiveness deals with sin's penalty — parental forgiveness deals with sin's consequences.
- Judicial forgiveness frees us from the condemnation of the righteous, omniscient Judge whom we have wronged — parental forgiveness sets things right with a grieving and displeased but loving Father.
- Judicial forgiveness provides an unshakeable standing before the throne of divine judgment — parental forgiveness deals with the state of our sanctification at any given moment and is dispensed from a throne of divine grace. So the forgiveness Christians are supposed to seek in their daily walk is not pardon from an angry Judge, but mercy from a grieved Father.
Some object to the idea that God could ever be displeased with His own children. They ask: Can our once-and-for-all forgiven sins ever provoke divine displeasure? The answer is a resounding "Yes." In fact, it is because of God's righteous displeasure over your sin that He refuses to leave you the way you are — sinful.
In a very practical sense, God's indignation over your daily sins demonstrates His love for you. That's the thought of Hebrews 12:5-11where some form of the word discipline is used seven times. Divine displeasure over your sin brings discipline, reproof, and scourging. That's a good thing, not only because it helps rid your life of sin, but it also shows His love for you and confirms your relationship to Him — "those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives" (v. 6).
God's discipline — sometimes involving punishment for disobedience — is painful; no one will argue with that. But you must remember: He is causing you to share in His holiness (v. 10); He is training you (v. 11); He is producing in you the "peaceful fruit of righteousness" (v. 11). So when you have sinned, humble yourself, confess your sin, and submit to His loving discipline.
Remorse over sin, daily confession, and a continual attitude of repentance are marks of a healthy Christian life. What's the benefit? Look again at 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (italics added). Forgiveness and cleansing — those promises are as refreshing to the sinner as a cold drink of water to a thirsty man.
David testified to the power of confession in Psalm 32: "When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; my vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer…I acknowledged my sin to You, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my sin to the Lord"; and You forgave the guilt of my sin" (vv. 4-5). The guilt of David's sin affected him physically — he found relief only through full confession.
We've already discussed the difference between judicial and parental forgiveness — the latter is in view in 1 John 1:9. It is a subjective, relational kind of forgiveness. It is the restoration to a place of blessing in the eyes of a displeased father. Similarly, the cleansing of 1 John 1:9 doesn't refer to regeneration. Rather, it is a spiritual washing to rid you of the defilement caused by sin in your daily walk. The verse is speaking of an ongoing pardon and purification from sin, not the cleansing and forgiveness of salvation.
The pardon of justification and the washing of regeneration do not eliminate the need for you to deal with the subjective reality of sin in your life. If you entertain such an idea, you will either be consumed by your guilt or you will steel yourself against the pangs of your conscience — either reaction will separate you from a loving Father.
Instead, keep confessing your sins; seek God's forgiveness and cleansing daily. As the verse says, He is faithful to Himself to forgive your sins and He is just, having already made full atonement for your sins through the sacrifice of His beloved Son. When you confess your sins, you are restored by a loving Father who delights to shower the brokenhearted and repentant with His mercy and compassion.
Adapted from The Freedom and Power of Forgiveness, © 1998 by John MacArthur

But phil, you didn't write ANY of that - it didn't come from YOUR understanding of the Scriptures. You posted what SOMEONE ELSE believes, not shared with us what you believe and backed it up with Scripture that you've studied out. Maybe you have studied it out - but you're not demonstrating that.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Well I cn assume you ahve read through the posts as you managed to pick one of mine out..nevermind..ill post again. And yes I have read the thread on 1 john, and I must say very lacking.. anyhow: there is plenty here for you to think about.
this the real issue at hand..


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. —1 John 1:9
That is one of the first verses many new Christians memorize — and rightly so. It holds forth the comforting promise of forgiveness and cleansing for all of us who have struggled with guilt in this sin-stained world. Yet there are some today who, because they fail to comprehend the extent of divine forgiveness, deny the clear teaching of 1 John 1:9 and teach other to do the same. They say that to pray for forgiveness reveals unbelief. After all, a healthy Christian doesn't experience guilt because he understands Christ's total forgiveness. Why seek forgiveness when you already have it?
However, their guilt-free brand of Christianity not only burdens guilty people with more guilt, but also strips away the only means to alleviate the guilt of sin-confession. Rather than helping Christians draw near to God, they are reinforcing the barrier of sin that interrupts their relationship with God. But that's not the end of the story.
The Bible clearly teaches that Christians should seek forgiveness. Consider this:
- In each one of the penitential psalms (Ps. 6; 32; 38; 51; 102; 130; 143), the psalmist is demonstrating the heart of a justified believer when he seeks forgiveness. In each case the psalmist is already a believer, fully forgiven.
- In the gospels, Christ taught believers to ask the Father to forgive their sins (Matt. 6:12; Mark 11:25; Luke 11:4). Some of those to whom He spoke were already born again. In 1 John 1, the verb tenses show that confession and forgiveness should be a continuous experience. Verse 7 literally reads, "The blood of Jesus His Son keeps cleansing us from all sin," and verse 9 likewise says, "If we are continually confessing our sins." Those to whom John wrote were already fully forgiven believers (cf. 5:13).
But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).
Let me show you the difference:
- Judicial forgiveness deals with sin's penalty — parental forgiveness deals with sin's consequences.
- Judicial forgiveness frees us from the condemnation of the righteous, omniscient Judge whom we have wronged — parental forgiveness sets things right with a grieving and displeased but loving Father.
- Judicial forgiveness provides an unshakeable standing before the throne of divine judgment — parental forgiveness deals with the state of our sanctification at any given moment and is dispensed from a throne of divine grace. So the forgiveness Christians are supposed to seek in their daily walk is not pardon from an angry Judge, but mercy from a grieved Father.
Some object to the idea that God could ever be displeased with His own children. They ask: Can our once-and-for-all forgiven sins ever provoke divine displeasure? The answer is a resounding "Yes." In fact, it is because of God's righteous displeasure over your sin that He refuses to leave you the way you are — sinful.
In a very practical sense, God's indignation over your daily sins demonstrates His love for you. That's the thought of Hebrews 12:5-11where some form of the word discipline is used seven times. Divine displeasure over your sin brings discipline, reproof, and scourging. That's a good thing, not only because it helps rid your life of sin, but it also shows His love for you and confirms your relationship to Him — "those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives" (v. 6).
God's discipline — sometimes involving punishment for disobedience — is painful; no one will argue with that. But you must remember: He is causing you to share in His holiness (v. 10); He is training you (v. 11); He is producing in you the "peaceful fruit of righteousness" (v. 11). So when you have sinned, humble yourself, confess your sin, and submit to His loving discipline.
Remorse over sin, daily confession, and a continual attitude of repentance are marks of a healthy Christian life. What's the benefit? Look again at 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (italics added). Forgiveness and cleansing — those promises are as refreshing to the sinner as a cold drink of water to a thirsty man.
David testified to the power of confession in Psalm 32: "When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; my vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer…I acknowledged my sin to You, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my sin to the Lord"; and You forgave the guilt of my sin" (vv. 4-5). The guilt of David's sin affected him physically — he found relief only through full confession.
We've already discussed the difference between judicial and parental forgiveness — the latter is in view in 1 John 1:9. It is a subjective, relational kind of forgiveness. It is the restoration to a place of blessing in the eyes of a displeased father. Similarly, the cleansing of 1 John 1:9 doesn't refer to regeneration. Rather, it is a spiritual washing to rid you of the defilement caused by sin in your daily walk. The verse is speaking of an ongoing pardon and purification from sin, not the cleansing and forgiveness of salvation.
The pardon of justification and the washing of regeneration do not eliminate the need for you to deal with the subjective reality of sin in your life. If you entertain such an idea, you will either be consumed by your guilt or you will steel yourself against the pangs of your conscience — either reaction will separate you from a loving Father.
Instead, keep confessing your sins; seek God's forgiveness and cleansing daily. As the verse says, He is faithful to Himself to forgive your sins and He is just, having already made full atonement for your sins through the sacrifice of His beloved Son. When you confess your sins, you are restored by a loving Father who delights to shower the brokenhearted and repentant with His mercy and compassion.
Adapted from The Freedom and Power of Forgiveness, © 1998 by John MacArthur

Oh, and 'judicial' and 'parental' forgiveness are made-up terms used to support an INTERPRETATION of what the Scriptures say, not what the Scriptures themselves say.

-JGIG

 

[phil36]

And this is something written by someone about something written by someone else. With quotes from the MLJ source taken out of context.

You do have a Bible, don't you, phil?

Do you read it for yourself?

-JGIG

Hi Jgig,

Now you have proven my point..remember your meant to be the one with all the grace; ) your statement is very ignorant.. Have you read the MLJ book... I have it on my shelf... .I think your statement shows that 'critique' hyper grace menatallity and ignorance.

 

[Grace777x70]

We said that..but we were in error it seems because we are antinomians.....

Oh, and 'judicial' and 'parental' forgiveness are made-up terms used to support an INTERPRETATION of what the Scriptures say, not what the Scriptures themselves say.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Sure I have. Posts 2 and 3 for starters. More to come if I can get anyone to engage me. The proof's in the pudding. They know that and they're scared.

I look at what they teach everyday. Their stuff is so full of holes, that I point it out, and it gets ignored. One thing I've noticed about this group, is that have absolutely no humility, and no desire to learn or be corrected. That's part of their mindset and training, and what Phil mentioned, that they constantly argue from the straw man of their own former disobedience. They assume everyone else is like them, and it's simply not true.

I'll revisit your first few posts and see if I can address them specifically later - what you're describing above is not what I've heard from those who preach/teach the Gospel of Grace.

I MUST go do some errands before the pharmacy closes. But I'll be back !

Much love in Christ,
-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It can't be all about His Grace.

Our works have to be in there somewhere.

They have to be.

Right?

"We" believe "all" of scripture. Do we?

Doesn't it bother you the way they interpret 1 John 1:9?

 

[Grandpa]

Doesn't it bother you the way they interpret 1 John 1:9?

The only thing that bothers me is when people place their works and what they have to do over the Work of Christ and what He has Acomplished.

 

[JGIG]

Hi Jgig,

Now you have proven my point..remember your meant to be the one with all the grace; ) your statement is very ignorant.. Have you read the MLJ book... I have it on my shelf... .I think your statement shows that 'critique' hyper grace menatallity and ignorance.

Grace can see straw men, and it's okay to point them out, phil.

I have not read the MLJ book - and I don't have it on my shelf.

My Bible is my go-to Book.

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

" But He gives greater grace. Therefore it says, ' GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. ' Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. " James 4:6-7

Humility is saying I agree with the finished work of Jesus Christ and I align myself up to its truths.

" Submit therefore to God. " The word 'submit ' is in the passive voice which means the person is ' being acted up '. God does it to us.

It is letting God's life and truth come to us.

" Resist the devil " - he is trying to get us into unbelief and self-effort but stand against that and submit to the finished work of Christ. Then our enemy flees from us!

" Doing in self-effort " = pride " Done in Him" = humility in Christ

 

[JGIG]

Must go do errands - be back later. There should be only a couple hundred more posts by then, ha!

Love you guys,
-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The only thing that bothers me is when people place their works and what they have to do over the Work of Christ and what He has Acomplished.

So does a belief in the Work of Christ and what He has Acomplished without righteous works bother you? By righteous works I mean what Paul said about being sure to maintain good works, as well as the righteous deeds of the saints mentioned in Revelation.

 

[Grandpa]

So does a belief in the Work of Christ and what He has Acomplished without righteous works bother you? By righteous works I mean what Paul said about being sure to maintain good works, as well as the righteous deeds of the saints mentioned in Revelation.

I think if a person relies solely on Christ all that will work itself out.

If not, then we have some pope defining what is and what isn't righteous works.

Romans 14:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

 

[phil36]

" But He gives greater grace. Therefore it says, ' GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. ' Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. " James 4:6-7

I do Love those verbs...MMmm what are verbs again ?? I can't remember...

Why do you think that we are saying we do things in self effort..thats very silly and and you know thrue believers don't believe that.... Yet I love that synergy.

Oh by the way don't you think the devil is also trying to get you to sin (tempt you)??? it's usually your own sinful nature of course unless you go against what true believers have always beieved?

 

[Grace777x70]

ROTFL.....sorry not biting.......you guys are funny!...lol

 

[Grace777x70]

I have to go have some supper..you guys play nice now...Bless you!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And the sad reality is the fact that if we think our battle is against sin................sin has dominion over us.

Hello gr8grace, it's very nice to meet you!
I don't understand what you say here.
My own experience has been a struggle against unbelief. Not total unbelief, but in things like...learning to not complain about the circumstances I find myself in because if I believe God, it is Him guiding my steps. So even in what I think is a bad situation, it's where He placed me and I should stay at peace in Him and wait to see what He will do. If I believe Him when He says He guides my steps, what could there possibly be to grumble about?

Another example is how I used to become very depressed when I couldn't stop murdering everyone. If I believe God about everything He says He will do, there is no cause for that depression. I just rely on Him to see to my lack of virtue instead of striving over it.

So unbelief is what I have struggled against. And whatever is not faith is sin. So...how is my struggle not against sin? I guess I am...asking for clarification of what you meant?

 

[Grandpa]

Another example is how I used to become very depressed when I couldn't stop murdering everyone.

Whoa...

What???