Trinity haters on CC

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sparkman

Guest
#81
#81
Crustyone said:
I would probably be called a Trinity hater, but I don't think I am, as I believe in the Trinity, but not as a Trinity that has always existed. I only suspect, don't necessarily believe, that The Word was created and attained His Godhood from His creator afterward. Micah 5:2 says in some versions that The Word had an origin. Nothing can originate if it is already there.
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This is Arianism and is refuted by a proper reading of John 1:1-3. Get the book "Forgotten Trinity" by James White.

To claim Christ was created is an error. God by definition is uncreated, unique, and alone worthy of worship. If all things were created by Christ, as Scripture clearly teaches, obviously he is not created.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#82
#82
jaybird88 said:
no where in any of that does Jesus say salvation is not obtainable if one does not accept the trinity.

from my understanding the trinity concept was just a way to explain the qualities of Jesus and was never a salvation issue.
i have read His teachings on salvation and i see nothing on accepting specific triune aspects.
IMO making this a salvation issue is taking the doctrine way to far.
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I don't doubt there are some saved Oneness people, but those who are defiant and try to cause issues and discredit the rest of Christianity over the accepted position don't reflect Christianity. I think there's a difference between someone being ignorant and someone being defiant.

By the way, Colossians 2:9 easily refutes the Oneness position. This was written years after the ascension, when the Holy Spirit had been sent. It says that in Christ all the fullness of the Godhead dwells (present tense) in bodily form.

If I understand Oneness theology correctly, Christ would not be dwelling in bodily form after the sending of the Holy Spirit.
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#83
Nov 19, 2012
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#83
jaybird88 said:
no where in any of that does Jesus say salvation is not obtainable if one does not accept the trinity.

from my understanding the trinity concept was just a way to explain the qualities of Jesus and was never a salvation issue.
i have read His teachings on salvation and i see nothing on accepting specific triune aspects.
IMO making this a salvation issue is taking the doctrine way to far.
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But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4.23 - 24)

True worship of God:

Father
Son
Spirit
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#84
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
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#84
I don't think salvation is based on if you believe in the holy trinity or not but it sure would make it more difficult in your relationship with God. in the beginning in genesis it says that the word was with God and the word was God to me Jesus is the only one who can fit the category of the word in that scripture and also if Jesus was merely a man then how could he have never sinned? Yes he was born without sin but only God himself is without sin man is born into sin Jesus was not.
and the holy spirit is the very essence and power and fire of God himself so if these three are not intertwined then how should we see them and speak with them? should we speak to father and not Jesus seeing as how if the trinity s false we are not talking God when we talk to Jesus? or perhaps when we call upon the holy spirit for help we should not regard him as God and rather as a source of power?

how many scriptures can we find to point to the trinity vs scriptures that point otherwise?
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#85
Nov 19, 2012
5,484
27
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#85
Blain said:
I don't think salvation is based on if you believe in the holy trinity or not but it sure would make it more difficult in your relationship with God. in the beginning in genesis it says that the word was with God and the word was God to me Jesus is the only one who can fit the category of the word in that scripture and also if Jesus was merely a man then how could he have never sinned? Yes he was born without sin but only God himself is without sin man is born into sin Jesus was not.
and the holy spirit is the very essence and power and fire of God himself so if these three are not intertwined then how should we see them and speak with them? should we speak to father and not Jesus seeing as how if the trinity s false we are not talking God when we talk to Jesus? or perhaps when we call upon the holy spirit for help we should not regard him as God and rather as a source of power?

how many scriptures can we find to point to the trinity vs scriptures that point otherwise?
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Salvation has always been reserved for those who worship God as Triune.....even in the OT.


Enoch worshiped The Triune God...

Gen 5.22 - 24

And Enoch walked with HaElohim (literal.. ‘all the Gods’)three hundred years after he fathered Methuselah. And he fathered sons and daughters.And all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty five years. And Enoch walked with HaElohim. Then he was not, for God took him.



Noah worshiped The Triune God...


Gen 6.9

These are the generations of Noah. Noah, a righteous man, had been perfected among his family. Noah walked with HaElohim(literal.. ‘all the Gods’).



 Abraham, Isaac and Jacob worshiped The Triune God...

Gen 48.15

And he blessed Joseph and said, HaElohim (literal.. ‘all the Gods’)before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, HaElohim who has fed me since I was born until today;




 
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Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#86
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#86
Bowman said:

Salvation has always been reserved for those who worship God as Triune.....even in the OT.


Enoch worshiped The Triune God...

Gen 5.22 - 24

And Enoch walked with HaElohim (literal.. ‘all the Gods’)three hundred years after he fathered Methuselah. And he fathered sons and daughters.And all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty five years. And Enoch walked with HaElohim. Then he was not, for God took him.



Noah worshiped The Triune God...


Gen 6.9

These are the generations of Noah. Noah, a righteous man, had been perfected among his family. Noah walked with HaElohim(literal.. ‘all the Gods’).



 Abraham, Isaac and Jacob worshiped The Triune God...

Gen 48.15

And he blessed Joseph and said, HaElohim (literal.. ‘all the Gods’)before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, HaElohim who has fed me since I was born until today;




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Salvation is based upon the cross the blood of Christ and us simply accepting him into our hearts, there is only one way to salvation
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#87
Nov 19, 2012
5,484
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#87
Blain said:
Salvation is based upon the cross the blood of Christ and us simply accepting him into our hearts, there is only one way to salvation
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Scripture...?
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#88
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#88
Bowman said:
Scripture...?
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You need scripture to know how to get salvation? are you not a Christian? did you become saved because you had a certain belief about God? Jesus said he is the way the truth and the light that none come to the father except through him even if you believed in the trinity had Jesus not done what he did none of us would be free.

So many people try to make an alternate route to salvation be that works the amount of scripture they know heritage or some other means but Jesus is the one and only way the cross is the symbol of salvation his blood made us clean even small children know and understand this shouldn't you?
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#89
Nov 19, 2012
5,484
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#89
Blain said:
You need scripture to know how to get salvation? are you not a Christian? did you become saved because you had a certain belief about God? Jesus said he is the way the truth and the light that none come to the father except through him even if you believed in the trinity had Jesus not done what he did none of us would be free.

So many people try to make an alternate route to salvation be that works the amount of scripture they know heritage or some other means but Jesus is the one and only way the cross is the symbol of salvation his blood made us clean even small children know and understand this shouldn't you?
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I asked for scripture.....not a lecture, blain.

Lacking confidence?
 
M

mystic7

Senior Member
#90
Jul 27, 2013
289
64
28
#90
Zmouth said:
I would be interested in hearing someone explain how did they came to believe in the Trinity, did they hear about in Church or did they learn some other way?
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I read the bible and believed what God said:John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
#91
#91
Bowman said:

Salvation has always been reserved for those who worship God as Triune.....even in the OT.

Enoch worshiped The Triune God...
Gen 5.22 - 24
And Enoch walked with HaElohim (literal.. ‘all the Gods’)three hundred years after he fathered Methuselah. And he fathered sons and daughters.And all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty five years. And Enoch walked with HaElohim. Then he was not, for God took him.
Noah worshiped The Triune God...
Gen 6.9
These are the generations of Noah. Noah, a righteous man, had been perfected among his family. Noah walked with HaElohim(literal.. ‘all the Gods’).
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob worshiped The Triune God...
Gen 48.15
And he blessed Joseph and said, HaElohim (literal.. ‘all the Gods’)before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, HaElohim who has fed me since I was born until today;
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but no where in any of that does it say understanding the nature of our Lord (or defining Him as 3) is a salvation issue.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#92
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#92
Bowman said:
I asked for scripture.....not a lecture, blain.

Lacking confidence?
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Confidence in what? if you want scripture then there is this John 14:6 Jesus himself said he is the only way to salvation I quoted him in my last post but I guess you missed that
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#94
Nov 19, 2012
5,484
27
0
#94
Blain said:
Confidence in what? if you want scripture then there is this John 14:6 Jesus himself said he is the only way to salvation I quoted him in my last post but I guess you missed that
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Adding context for you...

And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you. Yet a little while and the world no longer sees Me, but you see Me. Because I live, you also shall live. In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is that one who loves Me; and the one that loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and will reveal Myself to him. Judas said to Him, not the Iscariot, Lord, what has happened that You are about to reveal Yourself to us and not at all to the world? Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My Word, and My Father shall love him. And We will come to him and will make a dwelling place with him. The one who does not love Me does not keep My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father who sent Me. I have spoken these things to you, abiding with you; but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you. I leave peace to you; My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be timid. You heard that I said to you, I am going away, and I am coming again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I am going to the Father; for My Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it occurs, that when it shall occur you may believe. I shall no longer speak many things with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. But that the world may know that I love the Father, even as the Father commanded Me, so I do. Rise up, let us go from here.(John 14.16 – 31)






You just hamstrung yourself as context shows that Father, Son and Spirit are present with the believers.


This is The Trinity!


 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#95
#95
Bowman said:
Yes.
It does.
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"And Enoch walked with HaElohim (literal.. ‘all the Gods’)three hundred years after he fathered Methuselah. And he fathered sons and daughters.And all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty five years. And Enoch walked with HaElohim. Then he was not, for God took him."

lets start on the 1st one. where in this passage above is it talking about salvation?

are you referring to this "HaElohim (literal.. ‘all the Gods’)" ?
to me this would only mean more than one and not limited to 3 and only 3.
but you seem to want it to mean - 3 and if you dont understand nor accept you will never receive salvation.
im not an expert on Hebrew so im not going to say it means this or that or someones salvation depends on understanding it the same way i do.
like i said before i think your taking this way to far trying to lead people to believe this is a salvation issue.
Jesus gave specific teachings on salvation and never mentioned anything like what your saying. not from what i have read anyway.
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#96
Nov 19, 2012
5,484
27
0
#96
jaybird88 said:
"And Enoch walked with HaElohim (literal.. ‘all the Gods’)three hundred years after he fathered Methuselah. And he fathered sons and daughters.And all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty five years. And Enoch walked with HaElohim. Then he was not, for God took him."

lets start on the 1st one. where in this passage above is it talking about salvation?

are you referring to this "HaElohim (literal.. ‘all the Gods’)" ?
to me this would only mean more than one and not limited to 3 and only 3.
but you seem to want it to mean - 3 and if you dont understand nor accept you will never receive salvation.
im not an expert on Hebrew so im not going to say it means this or that or someones salvation depends on understanding it the same way i do.
like i said before i think your taking this way to far trying to lead people to believe this is a salvation issue.
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The first example is from Gen 5 - which contains the same exact thrice 'bara', 'bara', 'bara' creation formula of mankind as first found in Gen 1, when the Triune God created man.

Thus, 'HaElohim' must refer to the same Triune God who created mankind, as it also resides within the same chapter.

Further, the lexicons refer to 'walking in His name', of Yahweh, as the prevailing ones.





Jesus gave specific teachings on salvation and never mentioned anything like what your saying. not from what i have read anyway.
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Jesus always taught that Salvation comes from the Triune God.

Why do you think that He referenced The Shema as the most important thing?
 
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sparkman

Guest
#97
#97
I'd suggest getting a copy of the book Forgotten Trinity By James White and reviewing it. The Trinity is solidly biblical.

I also think it would be hard to rationalize Jesus' sinlessness if he was not God. I don't understand how someone can be saved if they deny the deity of Christ for this reason.

However, I know a person can be mixed up concerning facts of doctrine and still be saved. When I was saved, I was in effect a bi-theist who believed in two gods, Jesus Christ and God the Father, and I did not think the Holy Spirit was a person, but was the force that God used to accomplish his will on earth.

So, it is possible to be saved and be poorly informed on doctrine. I wasn't teaching bad doctrine, though. For those who are trying to teach bad doctrine to others, that places them in an entirely different camp. They are obligated to look at both views honestly, otherwise they will be held accountable to God as a false teacher. And teaching false things carries with it a severe penalty. Read Matthew 7.

Most of these people are simply spouting the teachings of their organization without considering the other point of view. Their beliefs seem coherent to them, but they are not in fact coherent when viewed from the other perspective. And, the other perspective carries the weight of church history, which is not something to be discredited lightly.

In many cases, the organizations who teach against the Trinity also teach other false doctrines. Often, one bad doctrine has a cascade effect that affects their view on other doctrines. And, quite often they are engaged in attempting to call the orthodox Christian view "pagan" or "so-called Christian" or "Satan's religion". So, I view it as a big warning sign when the Trinity doctrine is challenged, because often that isn't the only thing being challenged.
 
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Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#98
Nov 19, 2012
5,484
27
0
#98
sparkman said:
I'd suggest getting a copy of the book Forgotten Trinity By James White and reviewing it. The Trinity is solidly biblical.
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Yes, this is a good resource. I have a hard copy, and it also can be read online....
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#99
#99
sparkman said:
So, it is possible to be saved and be poorly informed on doctrine. I wasn't teaching bad doctrine, though. For those who are trying to teach bad doctrine to others, that places them in an entirely different camp. They are obligated to look at both views honestly, otherwise they will be held accountable to God as a false teacher. And teaching false things carries with it a severe penalty. Read Matthew 7..
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this is the problem i see. many only see the one view and ignore other teachings that are taught in scripture. i will not let doctrine lead me away from scripture.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#100
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#100
Bowman said:

Adding context for you...

And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you. Yet a little while and the world no longer sees Me, but you see Me. Because I live, you also shall live. In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is that one who loves Me; and the one that loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and will reveal Myself to him. Judas said to Him, not the Iscariot, Lord, what has happened that You are about to reveal Yourself to us and not at all to the world? Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My Word, and My Father shall love him. And We will come to him and will make a dwelling place with him. The one who does not love Me does not keep My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father who sent Me. I have spoken these things to you, abiding with you; but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you. I leave peace to you; My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be timid. You heard that I said to you, I am going away, and I am coming again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I am going to the Father; for My Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it occurs, that when it shall occur you may believe. I shall no longer speak many things with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. But that the world may know that I love the Father, even as the Father commanded Me, so I do. Rise up, let us go from here.(John 14.16 – 31)






You just hamstrung yourself as context shows that Father, Son and Spirit are present with the believers.


This is The Trinity!
Click to expand...
It speaks of the trinity but where does it say that believing in the trinity is the key to salvation? Mine clearly said who leads us to salvation. I mean think of this, if I was not saved but I believed God was real and because of how I was raised I believed in the trinity but I never accepted Jesus into my heart am I saved?
 
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