The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[JGIG]

With all due respect, you have not proven any of that. You've taken a label and attached it to the Gospel of Grace based on what you've heard others say about what Grace preachers teach.

I don't have 'practiced talking points'. I go to Scripture to relay what I believe. You've seen me do it time and again. And have agreed with me many times. I'm asking you to take a fresh look at what Grace teachers ACTUALLY teach, and evaluate from there.

-JGIG

Am I mistaken, but I thought this thread was about the Gospel of hyper-grace, not the Gospel of Grace.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,12teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Starting in 2013, a manufactured label, ‘Hyper-Grace’, was made popular and applied to the Gospel of Grace. Personally, I embrace the term, because in my opinion, the Living God coming to Earth as a man to die for our sin and bear the judgement due us, and then to give those who believe the gift of Righteousness and New Life in order to reconcile us to Himself is a pretty Hyper Grace!

That aside, not all believers embrace the term, and many are uncomfortable with the concept of pure Grace. Rather those who mix Law and Grace use the term as a derogatory label, on which they pile false accusations about what the Gospel of Grace is and how those who walk in Grace live their lives.
​

The above is from an article I wrote nearly 2 years ago. You can read more here if you wish:

What About ‘Hyper-Grace’???
Posted on February 26, 2014 by JGIG
​

So the 'Hyper-Grace' label, though intended as a derogatory term, actually more accurately describes God's Gospel of Grace manifested in the Work of Christ.

Scripture itself confirms that God's Grace is 'hyper':

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound (G5248 - hyperperisseuō): (from Romans 5:20)​

G5248 - hyperperisseuō

​

1. to abound beyond measure, abound exceedingly
2. to overflow, to enjoy abundantly

And yes, Grace teaches us \o/!

Grace does not demand, nor does it condemn us when we fail. With never-ending patience, Grace teaches us to, as another translation puts it in Titus 2,

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It [Grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (from Titus 2)
​

Couple that with these Scriptures:

20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. (from Eph. 4)

8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. (from Col. 3)
​

And you can see that learning to say 'No' to ungodliness is a process - and for ALL of us it is a life-long process as we are being renewed - recognizing more and more who we are in Christ. This is the renewing of our minds.

Putting our focus on ourselves is a mistake - we are exhorted to do the following as believers:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. (from Hebrews 12)​

The throwing off of hindrances is possible only if we're fixing our eyes on Jesus, not on self, for HE is the pioneer (other translations say author) and perfecter of faith.

6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. (from Col. 2)​

Sometimes we're going to sin. Some may live in a pattern of sin for a period of time in their lives. Those who live under a system of Law or a circle of denominational or an ideological circle of laws will actually sin more because the Bible says that law arouses sinful passions (Rom. 7).

Live by the Spirit and His Grace and sin will be reduced in your life.

Why?

Because Grace teaches us.

What does law actually do for us?

Nothing except point out our sin. It does nothing to keep us from sinning, it simply sits there accusing us when we do sin.

Grace provides a redemptive context when we do sin - the Work of Christ and who we are in Him - and assures us thus:

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. (from 1 Jn. 2)​

And that advocacy relies on who He is, not on what we do or do not do:

25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (from Heb. 7)​

That's what the Gospel of Grace teaches in a nutshell - Fix your eyes on Jesus:

• Who Jesus is
• What He came to do
• What that actually accomplished, and
• Who we are in Him

Out of grasping those Truths and fixing our eyes on Christ, REST comes, and then His Fruit \o/!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

You do realize Greek words have multiple meanings and usages don't you ???

They do not have one meaning and one usage.........

We absolutely DO recognize that fact.


Do you recognize the fact that where there is more than one meaning to a word that context, not selecting which meaning fits your preconceived notions, is what determines WHICH definition applies?

And context encompasses not only a verse, but, well, this diagram says it better and more clearly:



For instance, when a New Covenant writer is talking about commandments, one must, through context, determine what is being spoken about. What are the commands for us after the Cross?

Also here you go instead of agreeing or disagreeing with what I said, you start debating and ranglling over word usage. You do know Paul says to avoid such people that are doing what you just did ???

I think I will take his advice !!!

We're not wrangling - we're applying context to determine which meaning(s) apply to words as they appear in their context. Big difference.

-JGIG

 

[Magenta]

We absolutely DO recognize that fact.

Have you been absent for a while? Welcome back!

 

[JGIG]

I do not believe it is our works that maintains our salvation, but rather abiding in Christ does. Our works is a by product of our faith. And yes, intent is a big factor. I'm not perfect in obedience, I mess up sometimes and I don't lose my salvation because of this. I repent and ask for strength for the next time. I need lots of work. However, by living in willful sin I can not be of any service to God nor maintain any relationship with Him. There is a difference from continued willful sin and a sin committed in human weakness, our ignorance.

Salvation is a matter of the heart, a contrite heart. See physical circumcision was the one act of obedience the Jews or non-Jew for that matter, to be included in the covenant promised to Abraham. That was a type, the anti-type to that is the circumcision of the heart, a changed heart. A heart after God. Just because our salvation is possible solely on the Grace of God doesn't mean a change isn't required. God always required a change, no change in our sinful ways always led to destruction and judgment always started with those who He called His people. God's grace never changed from the OT to the NT, God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

That said, in Matthew 28 Jesus commanded the 11 disciples to go and make disciples of in all nations, nothing is mentioned specifically here about about the Jews.

A few questions based on what you wrote above, and then consider how the answers to these questions might change what you've written above:

• Is abiding in Christ a continued act of our will AFTER our salvation or is it the reality after our re-birth?

• Is abiding in Christ and resting in Christ the same thing?

• Would you agree that when someone puts their faith in Christ that the circumcision is a circumcision of the heart? The Old is cut away and the New is put in place (this is the New Birth/New Creation)? If you do agree with that, Who performed that change? Are there any passages that show that God EVER revokes that act of spiritual circumcision?

• Judgment for sin in the Old Testament was before the Work of the Cross. Do you believe that those in Christ - those who have received the forgiveness/cleansing for all unrighteousness - will be judged for sins already bled and died for? Would that not be judging the same sins twice - once in Christ and once in us, and be an unjust act, putting the Blood of Christ to shame, indicating that the Blood of Christ was NOT ENOUGH?

Thanks for considering the above,
-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

JGIG...that is a through and well documented review of the so-called hyper-grace message of the gospel of the grace of Christ. I'm with you in that I don't mind the term hyper-grace because it is hyper. Just because people use the term in a derogatory attitude doesn't negate the truth of the greatness of God's grace toward us.

I recommend everyone that has an open heart for Jesus and you want to know Him more and to grow in the grace and knowledge of Him - to look at the website. You will see clearly what it really means to be under the grace of Christ. The majesty and beauty of our Lord will shine into your hearts and make you fall on your knees with a heart full of thankfulness and awe and reverence for Him.

Remember the gospel means "good news"..if it isn't good news - it isn't the gospel of Christ. It's "another gospel" that Paul talked about in Galatians.

Galatians 1:6-7 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


I always ask myself 3 questions about truth or a teaching.

1) Does it make Jesus bigger in your heart when you see His work and majesty?

2) Does it make you depend on Jesus and His finished work? ( or does it make you look at myself )

3) Does it make you fall deeply in love with your Lord, our Father and with all people?

If I can answer these questions in the affirmative - then I'm in..super-grace me!

Here is the website and I especially recommend watching Rob Rufus " A Biblical Defense of the Gospel of Grace " which has a link to it on the website.

https://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2014/02/26/what-about-hyper-grace/

 

[JGIG]

Have you been absent for a while? Welcome back!

Thanks!

This is a short appearance - have a little time right now (should actually be doing other things, ha), but yes, I've been away.

One of our seven children (son, age 11) was diagnosed with brain and spine cancer this past August. We've been pretty consumed with his treatment (2 brain surgeries, 6 weeks of radiation, and now chemotherapy) along with going back and forth to Memphis (he's being treated at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital - best place and the best Doc on the PLANET for what he has \o/), parenting our other six children, and maintaining two households (St. Jude's provides housing for us when we're in Memphis - such a huge blessing!). He's doing well, by the way, responding well to treatment, but we have a long road ahead. Prayers are appreciated!

I lurk at CC on occasion, and have been itching to participate, but just have been swamped. Taking a little break from things because I believe this thread is very important - but I can't be here for long.

Love and miss you all!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I agree, it's hard to believe, and a mystery to me. The only reason I can come up with is that men in general love themselves more then God. They want to throw off the chords of God, His claim on us, for the sake of their pride and lustful pleasures.

I think there's another, maybe even more prevalent reason - and we see it here on this thread:

• Grace can't possibly be this good.

• I must have to do something to maintain my right-standing with God.

I don't know that it does any good to tell people how prideful we may think they are, or to try to measure their love for God vs. their love for themselves - who can actually do that, really?!

No, I believe it is our job to gently, persistently, build believers up in who they are in Christ. Point them to Christ and His Work. Point them to what that actually accomplished. Point them to who they are in Him.

-JGIG

 

[Magenta]

Thanks!

This is a short appearance - have a little time right now (should actually be doing other things, ha), but yes, I've been away.

One of our seven children (son, age 11) was diagnosed with brain and spine cancer this past August. We've been pretty consumed with his treatment (2 brain surgeries, 6 weeks of radiation, and now chemotherapy) along with going back and forth to Memphis (he's being treated at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital - best place and the best Doc on the PLANET for what he has \o/), parenting our other six children, and maintaining two households (St. Jude's provides housing for us when we're in Memphis - such a huge blessing!). He's doing well, by the way, responding well to treatment, but we have a long road ahead. Prayers are appreciated!

I lurk at CC on occasion, and have been itching to participate, but just have been swamped. Taking a little break from things because I believe this thread is very important - but I can't be here for long.

Love and miss you all!

-JGIG

I am so sorry to hear about your son! Seven children, my goodness but you must be busy! I have seven sisters and three brothers I will pray for your family... nice to see you stopping by!

 

[Gr8grace]

Thanks!

This is a short appearance - have a little time right now (should actually be doing other things, ha), but yes, I've been away.

One of our seven children (son, age 11) was diagnosed with brain and spine cancer this past August. We've been pretty consumed with his treatment (2 brain surgeries, 6 weeks of radiation, and now chemotherapy) along with going back and forth to Memphis (he's being treated at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital - best place and the best Doc on the PLANET for what he has \o/), parenting our other six children, and maintaining two households (St. Jude's provides housing for us when we're in Memphis - such a huge blessing!). He's doing well, by the way, responding well to treatment, but we have a long road ahead. Prayers are appreciated!

I lurk at CC on occasion, and have been itching to participate, but just have been swamped. Taking a little break from things because I believe this thread is very important - but I can't be here for long.

Love and miss you all!

-JGIG

Wow. the rubber hit the road in your life didn't it. Very humbling.........your circumstances and your faith. This is true fruit Sister.

Prayers your way!!

 

[JGIG]

Hebrews 5:9
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,


Here is a perfect opportunity to clear the air.

Is Salvation a gift and not of works? (Ephesians 2)

If you agree that it is then all the things "required" for eternal salvation must also be a gift. Right?

So obedience must be contained in Salvation. Obedience doesn't come from self-effort. It comes from abiding in Christ.

If not, then why would we need imputed righteousness?

Abiding in Christ is self-effort. Abiding in Christ is obedience. Justification and initial sanctification are gifts, but after that point abiding in our sanctification requires work (self-effort, whatever you want to call it).

We abide in Christ the moment we are born into the family of God through Christ.

After you were born, and I'm assuming you weren't abandoned or orphaned as a child, what effort did you exert to remain a member of your family?

So it is when we abide in Christ. If you are in Christ, you are abiding in Christ.

REST. Now, rest, REST is a different matter. Hebrews tells us to strive to enter into His REST. A paradox, to be sure, but goes to show us that it's something that we have to purpose to do - to choose to rest in the Work of Christ and not strive in our own works - and out of that comes Fruit.

Stressed plants don't tend to bear great fruit. They may squeeze out a good piece here or there, but there is no consistency or harvests.

In Christ, we're promised life, and life in abundance. I don't believe that necessarily means health and wealth (though those are not bad things), but it does mean that there will be Fruit in our lives - love, joy, peace, patience, self-control, etc., and those things in the midst of our circumstances because in every one of life's circumstances, Christ promises to never leave or forsake us.

We can be born-again and abiding in Christ, yet not resting in the Truth of who we are in Him based on Who He is and what He's done - AND that He walks with us ALWAYS.

So abide AND rest . . . that's where Fruit happens!

-JGIG

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I am so sorry to hear about your son! Seven children, my goodness but you must be busy! I have seven sisters and three brothers I will pray for your family... nice to see you stopping by!

Wow! Now THAT'S a big family! Thanks so much for your prayers .

Wow. the rubber hit the road in your life didn't it. Very humbling.........your circumstances and your faith. This is true fruit Sister.

Prayers your way!!

Thank you!

God's Grace has been all over us - our son's diagnosis came a bit by surprise. We took him to our local ER (a top children's hospital) for a wrist X-ray after a tumble and he had also bumped his head, so they did a CT and saw 'something'. A very long MRI of his brain and spine later, metastatic brain and spine cancer was diagnosed. A fantastic catch by the ER docs - had it gone undetected our son would have soon been irreversibly paralyzed (one area of tumor growth was in the spinal cord in his neck) and at that point it would have likely been too late to treat. He was not showing signs of disease - he passed every neuro test they gave him with flying colors (much to their amazement). Though the diagnosis was devastating, we are so VERY thankful that it was found.

Through a series of events, treatment was determined by St. Jude's to be the best thing (by far), and we are so blessed to be there. St. Jude Children's Research Hospital is as much a ministry as any out there. They are 10-15 years ahead of other institutions in treating cancer in children, and they FREELY share their research and protocols with doctors and hospitals WORLDWIDE. For every child cured at St. Jude's, that child represents thousands more around the globe who benefit from the research and treatments developed at St. Jude's.

Childhood cancer cure rates were around 20% in 1962 when St. Jude's was founded. Cure rates are more like 80% now (dependent on cancer type and stage), and for many cancers >90%, largely because of the research that has and continues to be done at St. Jude's. Much of the research that they do at St. Jude's includes reducing side effects while achieving cure rates, which is also so important, especially for growing children.

No family ever receives a bill for their child's treatment, and the support system for the patient and their families is AMAZING, from provided housing, to help with food costs, to transportation when needed . . . they do it all with an abundance of excellence, having provisions already in place for needs you don't even know you have/will have.

Our son's case is high risk, and his prognosis is between 60 and 70 percent for a cure, but we are very hopeful. He's covered in a LOT of prayer! We choose to trust God, whatever the outcome, knowing that whatever happens, our son knows God and God knows our son - and in that the will of God has already been done in his life \o/. And there is a lot of peacefulness in that!

God has led us clearly as we've walked this path, and like David, though he trusted that God could slay the giant, he still had to pick up his sling shot, choose the stones with which he would load it, and take aim. That is how God has led us. Surgery, radiation, and chemotherapy are those stones. The doctors are expertly firing those stones and they are killing the cancer in our son.

The prayer is that those 'stones', as tools in God's Hand, will go to every cancer cell in every nook and cranny, fold and crevice and kill them dead, while God protects the healthy cells in our son's body. That's how we've been led to pray. Please pray also for his stamina and protection from infection (chemo wipes out the immune system periodically during treatment) - it is hard on a body - and though the body does recover, it is a very tough road.

Beyond the diagnosis and treatment issues, God has provided so well for our family through the local and extended Body of Christ in this time. We are so grateful for the hands and feet that are loving and serving our family so well during this time \o/!

Resting in His Arms,
-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Nothing new there. It's that old lie that God saves us, but now it's up to us to keep ourselves saved. A lie right out of the pit.

Spoken by the gnostic spirit within you.

No, my friend:

6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (from Philippians 1)

​

-JGIG

 

[Willie-T]

I agree, it's hard to believe, and a mystery to me. The only reason I can come up with is that men in general love themselves more then God. They want to throw off the chords of God, His claim on us, for the sake of their pride and lustful pleasures.

Consider, too, that all of the Jews who crucified Jesus, loved God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

1. Is abiding in Christ a continued act of our will AFTER our salvation or is it the reality after our re-birth?
2. Is abiding in Christ and resting in Christ the same thing?
3. Would you agree that when someone puts their faith in Christ that the circumcision is a circumcision of the heart? The Old is cut away and the New is put in place (this is the New Birth/New Creation)? If you do agree with that, Who performed that change? Are there any passages that show that God EVER revokes that act of spiritual circumcision?
4. Judgment for sin in the Old Testament was before the Work of the Cross. Do you believe that those in Christ - those who have received the forgiveness/cleansing for all unrighteousness - will be judged for sins already bled and died for? Would that not be judging the same sins twice - once in Christ and once in us, and be an unjust act, putting the Blood of Christ to shame, indicating that the Blood of Christ was NOT ENOUGH?

1. It doesn't take an act of the will to remain in covenant with GOD, but believers can definitely walk contrary to Christ (not do his will) by an act of their will. So it really depends on what you mean by the term abiding in Christ.
   
   
   The one who says [that he] abides in him ought also to walk just as that one walked. 1 John 2:6
   
   And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 John 2:28-29​
   .
2. We don't have to do anything to remain in covenant with GOD, so in that sense resting in Christ and abiding in Christ are synonymous. We are in that regard resting in Christ's finished work.
   
   However, efforts on our part to remain set apart from the world and sin cannot not be considered rest. So again, it really depends on what you mean by the term abiding in Christ.
   
   
   For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Titus 2:11-12​
   .
3. Physical circumcision could become uncircumcision through disobedience.
   
   
   For circumcision is of value if you do the law, but if you should be a transgressor of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Romans 2:25​
   
   In the same way, spiritual circumcision can become uncircumcision through disobedience.
   
   
   ​Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​
   .
4. Christians can only be judged for their sins if they unrepentantly deny the lord, either in words or deeds.
   
   
   if we endure, we will also reign with [him]; if we deny [him], he also will deny us; 2 Timothy 2:12
   
   To the pure all [things are] pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing [is] pure, but both their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny [him], [because they] are detestable and disobedient, and unfit for every good deed. Titus 1:15-16​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Consider, too, that all of the Jews who crucified Jesus, loved God.

You SARC LOCK key was on when you typed that.

 

[Magenta]

Praise God for St. Jude's, and the workers and researchers at St. Jude's! I hear them being advertised, not sure where, perhaps on the Christian talk radio station I listen to occasionally. It sounds like he is in good hands, and your faith in the right place My closest sister has recently finished radiation following chemo after a mastectomy, and is now looking at a second mastectomy

 

[kohelet]

WHAT preachers?

NAME them.

SHOW EXAMPLES of their lack of grace.

Because the Grace preachers I'm familiar with are very willing to step by step, using contextual Scripture and being faithful to the original intent of the language, communicate the Gospel of Grace. These teachers include, but are not limited to:

Bob George
Andrew Farley
The folks at BasicGospel.net
Rob Rufus
Ryan Rufus
Paul Ellis
D. R. Silva
. . . and others

Hi JGIG,

It's been a while!

What preachers? We should name them and show examples of their lack of grace?

Rob Rufus refers to people who don't see grace as he does as "grace haters" in his book Living in the Grace of God (Milton Keynes: Authentic Media, 2007), p. 14, where he says,

"Grace haters are the legalists who will try to intimidate, manipulate and dominate people with a spirit of witchcraft. The religious spirit in them want everyone stereotyped and conformed to their own bondage. They are parrots and puppets, no longer voices for God, but echoes, not pursuing God but pursuing opportunities for position and prestige. They are cloned to act the same, dress the same and speak in the same religious tones. You know where everyone looks the same you can be sure a religious spirit is operating!"

So because I don't share his views I am motivated by the need to "intimidate, manipulate and dominate people" - and do so "with a spirit of witchcraft"! I'm a "parrot" and a "puppet" and I don't pursue God, but am motivated by position and prestige.

It's difficult to imagine less gracious words. What is extraordinary is that they are used by someone apparently "living in the grace of God".

Paul Ellis, in The Gospel in Ten Words, p.147, says that people who don't view grace as he does are preaching a "counterfeit gospel", which "will teach you to fear authority making you a target for tyrants and manipulators." So I'm a tyrant and a manipulator too, evidently.

Perhaps this is the sort of thing Phil had in mind.

 

[Willie-T]

You SARC LOCK key was on when you typed that.

No.... no sarcasm in that, at all. Just a very serious thought that seems to have escaped us entirely.

 

[JGIG]

Not at all. Those who preach the Gospel of Grace will tell you the same things. Those are normal, healthy, responses in our relationship with God in Christ. Grace teaches us, however, that our relationship with God in Christ is NOT dependent on us doing those things, however, or that God will cut us off.

We are in Christ and remain there by birth (spiritual re-birth), not by behavior.

-JGIG

Our relationship is not dependent upon our doing things, but doing the wrong things will definitely affect the relationship in a detrimental way. Big difference.

Agreed - sin will affect our relationship with God, but not His relationship with us. He is absolutely committed to us - so much so that He was willing to come in the flesh and shed His own Blood.

To quote again,

6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (from Philippians 1)​

That promise is not thwarted by our screw-ups. We have an infinitely patient Father Who knows that when we understand Whose we are and what that means, it changes how we behave.

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No.... no sarcasm in that, at all. Just a very serious thought that seems to have escaped us entirely.

Oh I see what you were saying. I didn't go back far enough.