The Lie of Parental Forgiveness: Rebuilding the Veil Jesus Broke

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ROFL......okie dokie.....:rolleyes:

phil36 said:
Yep Christ is our righteousness no one is saying he is not.. What we do not like is your re - interpriting scripture to fit your own theology..Well I know its not yours..your getting it eslwhere..but you are teaching the error here.
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Grace777x70:::
“a righteous act or deed”: Revelation 19:8 , the righteous act of one (Christ) in his giving himself up to death, opposed to the first sin of Adam, Romans 5:18
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It is becoming very hard to take anything you say seriously now grace777x70. One minute you say the Greek does not use the word act/deed, the when it is pointed out to you that it actually does mean that, you then try a deceptive manoeuver and use a short definition..trying to prove your point. I say that with a loving heart because everyone can read what you are saying.

Then when the full definition is pointed out you finally admit yes it does mean 'deeds', but because you don't wnat to be wrong you post the above. remember context is key. as everyone can see you have tried your best to twist to fit your theology.

This may help you.

19:7-8

With the prostitute destroyed, the Lamb's pure bride is announced. Arrayed in purity it was granted. HER gown of righteouss deeds is HER Grooms gift of grace... cf Isa 61:10; Rev 6:11,

For the fine linen IS the righteous deed's Of the Saints
 
FreeNChrist said:
Law and grace are opposed to each other at every point, it is impossible for them to co-exist, either as the ground of acceptance before God or as the rule of life.
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Nonsense. God's grace and commandments go hand in hand, it is sin that is the problem.

Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The law is spoken of as just, good, holy, true, but you will not hear that about sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
 
InSpiritInTruth said:
Nonsense. God's grace and commandments go hand in hand, it is sin that is the problem.

Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The law is spoken of as just, good, holy, true, but you will not hear that about sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
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No. It's illegitimately bringing Old Covenant precepts and principles over into the New Covenant that is the problem.
 
LOL..what I did was try to find where someone said that "acts" could be used and added in the word greek word used righteous. ( this rev 19:8 is the only place where the word "acts" was added to righteous ).and I did find it ..so I put it in there..

I do love your scripture in Isaiah and Rev..tho..thanks for showing them..

Isaiah 61:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] I will rejoice greatly in the LORD, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.


Revelation 6:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

this is the end of the discussion for me as you obviously have an "other agenda"...so play nice with the others and have a great day.. Bless you!


phil36 said:
It is becoming very hard to take anything you seriously now grace777x70. One minute you say the Greek does not use the word act/deed, the when it is pointed out to you that it actually does mean that, you then try a deceptive manoeuver and use a hort definition..trying to prove your point.

Then when the full definition is pointed out you finally admit yes it does mean 'deeds', but because you don't wnat to be wrong you post the above. remember context is key. as everyone can see you have tried your best to twist to fit your theology.

This may help you.

19:7-8

With the prostitute destroyed, the Lamb's pure bride is announced. Arrayed in purity it was granted. HER gown of righteouss deeds is HER Grooms gift of grace... cf Isa 61:10; Rev 6:11,

For the fine linen IS the righteous deed's Of the Saints
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Hi grace777x70,

Thank you for your teaching, I do find it to be erroneous and very close to antinomianism, infact it actually is antinomianism in regards to the Law (3rd use). The Churh (body of true believers) has never believed or taught what your are saying and not just you there are 2 or 3 others here aswell.

This is very dangerous teaching indeed, and that is the reason why it needs to called out. It would not be a loving 'act' to not call out erroneous teaching.
 
FreeNChrist said:
No. It's illegitimately bringing Old Covenant precepts and principles over into the New Covenant that is the problem.
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It is akin to Moses breaking the tablets yet again and telling the people............

Gen 2:17~~New American Standard Bible
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

 
The BIble is clear : "Confess ye one another's sins". Period....it keeps us humble..it allows for intercessory prayer warriors as a backup. It keeps us focused on the straight and narrow, as opposed to going headstrong down a very wide super highway to hell. No, I do not believe in dark confessional booths, little sliding doors and ritualistic absolutions made to an earthly priest, but I do believe in falling on my knees and confessing that I am weak and HE is strong..it keeps things in perspective and spiritual order!
 
If one is a servant of sin, then they are sold under the law of sin, for the natural law was not made for the righteous, but for sinners.

The law of sin working in mankind is like the law of gravity, you cannot be set free from it, nor rise above it, until the Lord gives you wings to fly! :)
 
So true!! Well said!

Now that is a great study..eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ...as opposed to eating from the tree of Life which is Christ..Jesus said .." Here..eat of my flesh and blood".."unless you do so..you have no part in Me "

there is a lot of "stuff" in there for us to learn..help us Holy Spirit..reveal Jesus to us!

Gr8grace said:
It is akin to Moses breaking the tablets yet again and telling the people............

Gen 2:17~~New American Standard Bible
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
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I understand Phil36....and I believe you mean well and have a good heart...have a great rest of your day and God bless you abundantly!


phil36 said:
Hi grace777x70,

Thank you for your teaching, I do find it to be erroneous and very close to antinomianism, infact it actually is antinomianism in regards to the Law (3rd use). The Churh (body of true believers) has never believed or taught what your are saying and not just you there are 2 or 3 others here aswell.

This is very dangerous teaching indeed, and that is the reason why it needs to called out. It would not be a loving 'act' to not call out erroneous teaching.
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BenFTW said:
The qualms of sin confession, ever distancing ourselves from a loving Father. I reference you to this thread http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/120367-obsession-confession-1-john-1-9-sin-confession.html in order to see that sin confession for the believer is unwarranted and unnecessary for the forgiveness of sins (Jesus took care of sin at the cross).

This thread is addressing a particular doctrine of sin confession that comes in agreement with the above statement that sin confession does not grant us forgiveness in our judicial standing with God (I.e, we are justified before God). However this doctrine of sin confession makes a distinction that there is judicial forgiveness and then parental forgiveness, in saying this they are saying that we break fellowship with God when we sin (I.e, alienate Him).

One way its proponents word it is to say, "Sin doesn't break union with Christ, but communion with Him." This thread will attempt to refute this doctrine as it contradicts the Gospel, what Jesus accomplished at the cross and the entire plan of reconciliation. As the title of this thread suggests, it is attempting to rebuild the veil that Jesus tore by His sacrifice at the cross. Lets address this...

To start this we need to get an understanding of what the veil is, and its intended purpose. You may wonder why I am speaking of a veil and so let me tell you, this is a necessary back drop to understand that the plan of reconciliation is for man to enter God's presence (once again, after the Fall). Here are some verses to understand that behind the veil in the temple resided God's presence, it was the Holy of Holies (with the Ark of the Covenant).

Hebrews 9:1-3King James Version (KJV)

9 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

The purpose of the veil was to separate sinful man from God, and only the high priest could enter in (to the Holy of Holies).

Isaiah 59:1-2King James Version (KJV)

59 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.


Hebrews 9:7King James Version (KJV)

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Now, we've established what the veil was, and its purpose (I.e, to separate sinful man from God's presence), and we've also made clear that only the high priest entered. Man still needed reconciliation to God while these things were in place, and these were all but a shadow of the things to come. In comes our High Priest, Jesus Christ. Man being alienated from God because of sin and in the need of saving (and reconciliation) Jesus then goes to the cross all a part of God's plan of reconciliation.

I'm sure most of you reading understand the Gospel and what Jesus did at the cross when He died and then resurrected on the third day. He died to pay the penalty of our sins (death) and sacrificed Himself for us. Something, however, significant happened at this moment. The veil was broken, it was torn!

Matthew 27:50-51King James Version (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Remember the purpose of the veil, to separate sinful man from God. It being torn is significant! Jesus paid for our sins (even the world's sin as He is the propitiation for the sins of the world; not Universalism but all inclusive, as in all are invited) and in doing this He has eliminated the factor by which we were alienated from God. Sin has been dealt with, forever. Here are some verses to back that claim up...

Hebrews 10:10-18King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

There is a lot said in those verses above. There are more but those paint it so clearly. Sin has been dealt with for "where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." Jesus took away our sin! Even the idea of sin confession goes contrary to this, because if these sins have experienced remission what more is there to say? There is no more offering for sin, its been dealt with.


Hebrews 7:23-27King James Version (KJV)

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

It is clear. Jesus did one sacrifice for sins forever, He is our High Priest ever interceding on our behalf, and sin has been dealt with. Unlike the priests before Him, He is eternal and His sacrifice was Himself and it isn't something to be repeated again and again (making it common) but He did it once and took care of sin forever.

Lets take a moment to tie everything together before we continue. Jesus took care of the issue that separated man from God in obedience to God's plan of reconciliation. Jesus in dying on the cross and paying sin's penalty tore the veil (it signified that which separated man is broken, restoration has been made). Access to God's presence is now available, not through the temple's veil or man made temple but through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:19-20King James Version (KJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh

Reconciliation has been made and it is through God's Son Jesus Christ and the issue of sin has been dealt with having received remission through the blood of Jesus Christ. Sin doesn't break fellowship or communion with God because it has been dealt with by the blood of Jesus. The very issue of alienation was due to sin and that is precisely why Christ went to the cross. Did Jesus fail in His mission? Of course not, and that is why we may have boldness to enter into the holiest, to enter into God's presence without fear or judgement. Praise Jesus!

To summarize, the doctrine of sin confession that argues for parental forgiveness is false, a lie. It is not the truth because it denies what Christ accomplished at the cross. He took care of what alienated man from God (sin). He paid the price and set us free and through Him He gave us access to the Father's presence. As I read some time ago, "Jesus tore the veil and religion is trying to sow it back up." Sin confession is religion in action, it is man trying to reach God by some other means than Jesus Christ. It is putting some middle man in between God and you instead of simply trusting in the finished work of the cross. Sin confession is not the means to reconciliation, Jesus is and He did it at the cross of Calvary. The veil is broken and God is waiting for you, not to come ashamed but washed in the blood of Jesus boldly coming before Him by His grace and love.

1 John 3:20-21King James Version (KJV)

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
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And that veil was THICK. It might as well been called a wall. I have read in various places that the veil, which represents a mediator between us and God, an example is Moses, was between 4 and 8 inches thick, depending on the source.
Praise God !
 
I made this thread because it was stirring in me and it was disturbing me how people can say the Lord alienates Himself from us because of sin. It didn't make sense to me because, as was attempted to be presented in the OP, sin was taken care of by Jesus for the very reason of reconciliation. The idea is that the barrier between man and God was torn and now we are reconciled to God, hence why Jesus went to the cross to bear man's sins.

So when people started making posts about sin and breaking fellowship it dawned on me that it is man with his false perception of God who is doing the alienating and not the Lord Himself. He took care of sin, it is our own preconceived ideas of Him that now separates men from Him. They think He is angry, and full of wrath towards them not realizing He sent Jesus into the world not to condemn but save. He loves us, and sin is something that He dealt with so that we could once again walk with Him. To have communion and fellowship and there be no hindrances.

In other words, its the Gospel, its the Good News. Jesus paid the price for our sins and we are reconciled to God. I think we should really consider the Apostle Paul's words...

Romans 6:11King James Version (KJV)

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
Well said..Our perceptions of our good, loving Father are warped by our old Covenant mindset. I personally think a lot of this comes from the Old Covenant mindset and not knowing the New Covenant ..then trying to mix them up. It just causes a mess..

Jesus is perfect theology

Jesus is the exact representation of the Father. Jesus said no one knows my Father. So, whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the Father will be inaccurate.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Sometimes we "mix" the covenants and skewed views of God can occur. Things under the OT were definitely different but we know that scripture is progressive in it's unveiling of the nature and character of our Father and Jesus is to be our true example of Him.



BenFTW said:
I made this thread because it was stirring in me and it was disturbing me how people can say the Lord alienates Himself from us because of sin. It didn't make sense to me because, as was attempted to be presented in the OP, sin was taken care of by Jesus for the very reason of reconciliation. The idea is that the barrier between man and God was torn and now we are reconciled to God, hence why Jesus went to the cross to bear man's sins.

So when people started making posts about sin and breaking fellowship it dawned on me that it is man with his false perception of God who is doing the alienating and not the Lord Himself. He took care of sin, it is our own preconceived ideas of Him that now separates men from Him. They think He is angry, and full of wrath towards them not realizing He sent Jesus into the world not to condemn but save. He loves us, and sin is something that He dealt with so that we could once again walk with Him. To have communion and fellowship and there be no hindrances.

In other words, its the Gospel, its the Good News. Jesus paid the price for our sins and we are reconciled to God. I think we should really consider the Apostle Paul's words...

Romans 6:11King James Version (KJV)

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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BenFTW said:
I made this thread because it was stirring in me and it was disturbing me how people can say the Lord alienates Himself from us because of sin. It didn't make sense to me because, as was attempted to be presented in the OP, sin was taken care of by Jesus for the very reason of reconciliation. The idea is that the barrier between man and God was torn and now we are reconciled to God, hence why Jesus went to the cross to bear man's sins.

So when people started making posts about sin and breaking fellowship it dawned on me that it is man with his false perception of God who is doing the alienating and not the Lord Himself. He took care of sin, it is our own preconceived ideas of Him that now separates men from Him. They think He is angry, and full of wrath towards them not realizing He sent Jesus into the world not to condemn but save. He loves us, and sin is something that He dealt with so that we could once again walk with Him. To have communion and fellowship and there be no hindrances.

In other words, its the Gospel, its the Good News. Jesus paid the price for our sins and we are reconciled to God. I think we should really consider the Apostle Paul's words...

Romans 6:11King James Version (KJV)

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Click to expand...



The problem BenFTW is when the teaching arises that Jesus going to the cross to die for our sins overrides anything the Lord said that puts us under that Grace of God to receive His remission.

Jesus dying on the cross for us does not override the need for repentance, baptism, confession, and living in love to be done. They all go hand and hand in the ministry of reconciliation !!!

Jesus died for our sins but we have to make the conscience choice to accept what He did for us, and that comes from a true faith established when one hears the Word of God and trusts in it to do what is said !!!

Forgiveness of sins is not imputed on everybody before they do what Christ as commanded and been born again, and from there we must continue to walk properly in the faith. Believing in Him is a continuous position, not a one time act !!!

Apostle Paul understood this clearly as he explained to others the faith in Christ unto salvation is like that of running a race, we must continue to run that race and keep the faith to receive the promise.

Paul knew some would not continue in the faith, which he warned more than anybody about not losing heart and departing from the faith.

The gospel is Good News of salvation through Christ who paid for our sins, but that in no way takes our part out of the equation of having to put our faith and trust in Him !!!

God's word comes with multiple warnings if one does not continue abiding in Christ, those also need to be shared with believers elsewise God's Grace is not taught in its entirety !!!
 
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