Are women allowed to Preach?

[Dino246]

It seems best to understand that part of Gen 3:16 to be saying that the husband was given authority in any future marriage relationships and, because of this loss of co-sovereignty, the wife would have a desire for her husband that would tend to keep the partnership together.
And, more so, that even the extreme pain in childbirth (the judgment of the first part of the verse)...

Hmmm, your quote acknowledges that this passage touches on judgment (I think 'consequence' is a better term), but interprets the first part of it as though it gives husbands authority.

Why would God, Who is good and loving, give such authority to now-sinful men? Perhaps a more consistent interpretation would be that, as a result of sin, men would exercise authority... by force.

 

[Depleted]

Matthew 28:16-20 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto ME in heaven and in earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [SUP]20 [/SUP]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

EVERY christian is a disciple. EVERY christian has this charge.
WHY would Jesus say this without respecter of persons IF women were to be excluded? And don't give me that 'preach, yes, but not be a "designated" preacher' bit, either..... Everyone was called to declare the Gospel..... with no respecter of persons WHO preaches it or WHO receives it.

"Designated" preachers were called by man..... in the beginning it wasn't so.

Now we live in a society where only "certain" people (men) preach, & the church believes they're the only ones meant to do it. What garbage we swallow nowadays..... unproven traditions of the so-called "elders" of the RCC. Protestantism inherited the garbage from the RCC..... it's nowhere in the NT.

These novices first use their "favorite" scripture to get their wives under submission; then use the SAME SCRIPTURE to keep them from preaching the Gospel to the public. What else will they use it for? They don't even know the difference between huper & hyper.

IMO, there's too many novices lifted up in pride & arrogance thinking only THEY should have the control. Hypocrites they are, refusing women ministers in their churches, as if THEIR WORD was law.

There's a woman on here whose knowledge & understanding exceeds most men here by 300%. If you're so right, WHY ISN'T your education greater than hers? IF God didn't want her preaching, why did He allow this? Your incompetence & ignorance to top her gives you away..... your "anointing" isn't breaking the yoke. If your doctrine was so, God would honor His word & MAKE YOU THE HEAD, wouldn't He?

PROVE YOUR POINT WITH EVIDENCE..... I'm sick of your vain words with no profit.

3 John 1:9-10 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Sound familiar? There's nothing new under the sun.

The Word asks husband to love their wives as Christ loves the Church and wives to submit to their husbands. I truly believe God wants us off our A Game, because when we're relaxed and in our element, we get cocky and think we can do it all by ourselves. Out of our element, and we need to lean on God more.

In general, women love easily. It's our go-to thing. We're naturals at it. BUT, we bulk at being submissive. (Ain't no way, Babe!) So God told us to do what it is against our nature to do, so we remember everything we do for him is also done through him.

Meanwhile, men are geared to take control. "Take care of my family." "Help my community." "Get what's needed and get 'er done." "Fix it and forget it." Harder yet, then they get married and what they want to do is instantly fix every problem their wife tells them about. (Still, after 35 years of marriage and hubby is the one who taught me this stuff -- that women would rather their guys just listen to them and love them through it, instead of fix it all the time -- I sometimes make the mistake of telling hubby my next project. It's a mistake because he instantly goes at it to do it for me. Um? My project. I wanted to do this.) One of the hardest things for a man to do is simply be still and love the wife instead of jumping in to fix.

So, God told wives and husbands to do the opposite of what they're comfortable doing. Only way to do that is seek God and his ability in us. (If you doubt what I say about how much submission doesn't come easy for us, just read any post where a man unrelated to us, tries to tell us how to act. Pants! Always the pants! lol)

BUT, since it's just easier for men to have women do for them, than to take that much effort to hear and be patient, often the reason there are women preachers is because guys won't take on their God-given role of loving the church like Christ did. That's literal too. And women -- we who like to be in full control, instead of submit -- are perfectly fine going back to the worldly role we had before salvation. (Move out of the way, buddy, and let me at it!)

So, basically, if men did what they were supposed to do and women did what we're supposed to do, there would be no reason whatsoever for a women to run a church when we should be preparing the children and the next generation of women how to follow God with us. If it's comfortable doing it, chances are good, you shouldn't be doing it for God. (That goes for me giving classes to men about God and men sitting back to watch me.) It is just as much pride and arrogance from women who think they have all rights to be over a man when it comes to God's word.

 

[Depleted]

I disagree with your view, and here's why: There are many cultures that were not based on the "Adam and Eve" story, but instead had other creation stories for their culture. Some of these stories involve women in a more elevated way. However, matriarchies (women-led cultures) have been very few and far between.

The subjugation of women (and children, and the handicapped, etc.) has always been due to perceived vulnerability and weakness. So, because in ancient times there was a greater need for physicality in day-to-day living, men were perceived as superior due to their greater physiological strength. Also, in the absence of any enforced social order, MIGHT actually does make RIGHT. Without enforced laws, for example, stronger people can mistreat weaker people and benefit from it. I don't think it's shocking for anyone to say that the history of humankind is the history of the pursuit of self. If you are only concerned about meeting your own needs and desires, you won't hesitate to do anything to make that happen--including manipulating and subjecting the weak. This, btw, STILL happens. Laws cannot force people to be moral. For example, while it's *morally right* to pay workers a living wage, insure safe conditions, etc., there are plenty of companies that engage in legal but immoral shenanigans to increase the profit margins of a few at the expense of the masses. You even (unfortunately) see this within Christianity as well. The vast majority of televangelists make their exorbitant incomes off of the backs of the poor, sick, and disenfranchised.

However, when you look at the bible as a whole, it is very clear that God has a heart for the weak, poor, sick, and disenfranchised. His agenda is for these groups to be cared for by those who are stronger, richer, and more able. Part of the measure of any civilization (if you look through Christian lenses) is how that culture takes care of its most vulnerable members. This is why there are verses about how rape should be handled, for example. (Verses that might seem harsh to modern readers, but that were actually exercising justice at that time). There are lots of examples of God elevating and valuing females in the bible--ultimately culminating in the birth of the Savior from an impregnated woman. Jesus consistently valued women in his ministry. The NT has lots of examples of women actively working with the Apostles to build the church.

In my opinion, the reason we have laws protecting the women and the weaker members of society is a manifestation of the Christianizing of the world. (The WHEAT does grow with the tares). For example, children were once considered the "property" of parents. Parents could mistreat and abuse children in many ways without consequence. Now, we have lots of laws to help protect children from abuse. The same is true for women. Women used to be property owned first by their fathers and then by their husbands. Now, women (in the Western world, especially) have political agency, they can own property and businesses, they have access to education, and can achieve comparable incomes to males in most fields.

If a person's philosophy is that women are less valuable than men, it's easy to misquote or misinterpret scripture to prove that. However, that really has nothing to do with God's clearly revealed perspective. So, if someone wants to stand on "Eve sinned first" as a reason to malign or mistreat women, ultimately that person will stand before God to answer for it.

Sociology 101. America is a matriarchal society.

 

[jb]

...Are women allowed to Preach (AND teach)?...

A most resounding "YES"!

Gal 3v28, Eph 4v7-16 (and so forth)

Anything else is of Satanic origin!

The context of 1Cor 14v34,35 and 1Tim 2v11 is to do with domestic matters!

 

[Depleted]

I'm going to approach this subject from the position of an old man who has grown up in church.

Without the wonderful women teachers in my life (mother, grandmothers, and Sunday school teachers), I probably would never have read a single scripture. If I had followed the example of most of the men that I grew up around, I would rarely set foot in church, spend most of my life criticizing preachers, telling mama to stay home from that den of hypocrites, spend every weekend at the local tavern, and a long list of other things. The funny thing about those men was that each and every one of them were raised and taught by many of the same women who taught me. There was one difference. One of my grandfather's was forced by the mother of the woman that he was madly in love with, to return to church and regularly attend it before he could marry her. Some twenty years after he married her, he was saved, and he spent the remainder of his life showing his grandchildren what a life lived for Christ was like. He was never a teacher of scripture, or a preacher. He never directly lead a single sole to Christ, but the last forty plus years of his life was an example that resulted in many others coming to Christ.

Why did I post the above? Without Godly women, who studied the Bible, and read it daily with their children, taught it weekly in a Sunday school class, and always lived a life for God, the church that I grew up in, and many other churches of the time would no longer exist. Most of those women have gone on to be with the lord, but they left behind a new teachers and Godly mothers who, without exception, would tell you that under no circumstances would they accept a woman as a pastor. They would cite 1 Timothy 3:1-11. In my eyes, and most men who grew up in my community, all of these women knew more than most pastors that we have ever known. Whether these wonderful women believed it or not, they were the true pastors in our lives.

The question, "Are women allowed to preach?" will be debated until Jesus returns. There are several women on this site who are pastors, and I have a great respect for both their dedication, and their knowledge of the scriptures. I also feel that God has called them to their ministries. As many have used scripture to demonstrate that God uses women for various purposes, I believe that God will use these dedicated women to his glory, and I will pray for them and their ministry. My answer to the question is "yes".

Don't forget... God. He would fill the gap.
Luke 19:40 He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.”

 

[John146]

A most resounding "YES"!

Gal 3v28, Eph 4v7-16 (and so forth)

Anything else is of Satanic origin!

The context of 1Cor 14v34,35 and 1Tim 2v11 is to do with domestic matters!

What about 1 Timothy 3 where the Lord has outlined some of the conduct and qualifications to be a pastor? They are to be the husband of one wife...ruling well his own house...a man, he, him.

Verses 14-15, "These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

 

[Dino246]

What about 1 Timothy 3 where the Lord has outlined some of the conduct and qualifications to be a pastor? They are to be the husband of one wife...ruling well his own house...a man, he, him.

The principles which apply to the men also apply to the women, aside from the obvious, that a woman cannot be a husband. Yes, vvs 2-10 use masculine pronouns. However, v. 11 uses a feminine pronoun. The Greek word behind it is also legitimately translated 'women' as well as 'wives'. Also, this passage speaks to qualifications for elders and deacons, not who may or may not teach.

Back to the OP question; the most biblically-consistent interpretation of 1 Timothy I have come across suggests that Paul and Timothy were dealing with a mystery cult which would later be known as the Gnostics. The cultists taught that Eve was formed first, among other things. In this context, v2:12 might be understood as, "I do not allow such a woman (who has been steeped in the mystery cults and wants to teach that trash to the church) to teach; she must learn (the truth first) in quietness and full submission." I hold this lightly, but it does make good sense of the letter as a whole, and especially this contentious passage.

Part of the reason I consider this interpretation is that Paul used a singular noun, 'a woman' rather than the plural 'women'.

 

[John146]

Maybe Eve was formed first, after all, the same principles which apply to the men also apply to the woman It's not a matter of application for all. It is an application for the house of God. Men have their roles, women have theirs. Yes, sometimes the men are not very qualified or are failing to do their role right, but that does not give a reason to go against the Word.

 

[Angela53510]

The issue here is not preaching or teaching but teaching and having authority over men.
Of course they can be evangelists, missionaries, teachers of other women and children.

TIme for me to jump in and discuss this with my friend, Crossnote!


"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV

"διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ." 1 Tim. 2:12 Greek.

Authority - in Greek, Exousia. A noun in both languages.

Authentein - αὐθεντεῖν. Authentein. NOT authority in Greek! This word is a verb - and infinitive, to be exact. That means, the translation needs to be "to....." So authority does not fit this at all. A noun, not a verb, and an infinitive at that. So translators literally need to add the word "exercise" because authority does not work in this sentence.

αὐθεντεῖν is also a hapax legomena. That is a word that is used only ONCE in the Bible. So Paul used it for a reason, because he has written in other places about "authority," (Romans 7:1, 13:1, 13:2, 13:3; 1 Cor. 9:18, 11:10, 15:24; 2 Cor. 10:8, 13:10; Eph. 1:21, 2:2; Col. 2:10; 1 Tim. 2:2, Titus 2:5) I think we an safely assume he knows the difference between exousia and authentein.

Because authentein appears no where else in the Bible, we have to look at extra-biblical contemporaneous sources to try and get a handle on the meaning. First, we know it has to be a verb, and not a noun. But this word actually has over 50 meanings. So if you look at the frequency of where the word appears the most, and drop off the meanings that obviously don't apply here (like murder and copulate) the most common use of this word is "domineer."

So most likely, Paul is speaking to Timothy, in a private letter about a situation in Ephesus, which is likely to do with the priestesses of Diana or Artemis, coming in and domineering meetings. And not just in teaching, but in worship, and maybe trying to cause problems, so people will leave the church and go back to the temple of Artemis. (So very much cultural and situational, not universal!)

Paul is chiding the women for two reasons. One - because they are not to dominate the assembly and the men leaders. Why are the men leaders only? Because Jewish, Greek and Roman women were not generally taught to read, or to learn. So the men were the ones who could quote the OT and also read any of the letters of Paul or the other Apostles, which were circulating by then.

"A woman is not - to domineer". A much better translation both in the correct usage of the word, and in using the proper grammar.

Strange how KJV translators decided to make this a verse to keep women from teaching and preaching, by actually using the wrong word, and how many translators have continued this outright error.

The part about "not teaching" comes from the same cultural background. Women who were not studied in the Word of God, were not teach, because they needed to learn first. So, once again, KJV has a bad translation for the word ἡσυχίᾳ or asuchia. It means "quiet" not silent. So we cannot base our exegesis on the word "silent."

In fact, the later part of this statement in 2:12 is very liberating for women. First, they are allowed to learn. So Paul is encouraging women to "study to show themselves approved." The other thing is, when a rabbi took on students, they had to sit quietly to learn. So these women are being equated with rabbinical students.

Thus, a faulty translation to discourage women from following the call of God. God called me twice to go to seminary, and the first time I disobeyed God because of passages like 1 Tim. 2:12. How grateful I am that God called me a second time, to learn, to grow and to follow God's calling on my life. So for those of you who do not know, I am an ordained pastor.

Although I will say Eph. 4:11 is incorrect also in many translations of the Greek.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Eph. 4:11 KJV


"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers," Eph. 4:11 ESV

"αὐτὸς ἔδωκεν τοὺς μὲν ἀποστόλους, τοὺς δὲ προφήτας, τοὺς δὲ εὐαγγελιστάς, τοὺς δὲ ποιμένας καὶ διδασκάλους," Eph. 4:11 Greek

Poimenas or ποιμένας is the plural of poimane and it does mean shepherd. In fact the NT has no actual word "pastor" in it anywhere. So perhaps we need to use a different word, instead of "pastor" myself included!

Finally, to point out one more error in KJV, the word "some" or tis, ti, in the Greek does not appear in Eph. 4:11. The word used, as you can see above in the Greek is tous, which is the accusative case article plural, or "the." That is a lot of mistakes for one passage!

Sorry, not going to exegete 1 Cor. 14. This post is already too long. Maybe later??

 

[Stephen63]

Looks like the old Bishop of Canterbury has struck again, eh, Angela? Give a guy title & power, & they'll do or say anything to keep from losing it!

 

[John146]

TIme for me to jump in and discuss this with my friend, Crossnote!


"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV

"διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ." 1 Tim. 2:12 Greek.

Authority - in Greek, Exousia. A noun in both languages.

Authentein - αὐθεντεῖν. Authentein. NOT authority in Greek! This word is a verb - and infinitive, to be exact. That means, the translation needs to be "to....." So authority does not fit this at all. A noun, not a verb, and an infinitive at that. So translators literally need to add the word "exercise" because authority does not work in this sentence.

αὐθεντεῖν is also a hapax legomena. That is a word that is used only ONCE in the Bible. So Paul used it for a reason, because he has written in other places about "authority," (Romans 7:1, 13:1, 13:2, 13:3; 1 Cor. 9:18, 11:10, 15:24; 2 Cor. 10:8, 13:10; Eph. 1:21, 2:2; Col. 2:10; 1 Tim. 2:2, Titus 2:5) I think we an safely assume he knows the difference between exousia and authentein.

Because authentein appears no where else in the Bible, we have to look at extra-biblical contemporaneous sources to try and get a handle on the meaning. First, we know it has to be a verb, and not a noun. But this word actually has over 50 meanings. So if you look at the frequency of where the word appears the most, and drop off the meanings that obviously don't apply here (like murder and copulate) the most common use of this word is "domineer."

So most likely, Paul is speaking to Timothy, in a private letter about a situation in Ephesus, which is likely to do with the priestesses of Diana or Artemis, coming in and domineering meetings. And not just in teaching, but in worship, and maybe trying to cause problems, so people will leave the church and go back to the temple of Artemis. (So very much cultural and situational, not universal!)

Paul is chiding the women for two reasons. One - because they are not to dominate the assembly and the men leaders. Why are the men leaders only? Because Jewish, Greek and Roman women were not generally taught to read, or to learn. So the men were the ones who could quote the OT and also read any of the letters of Paul or the other Apostles, which were circulating by then.

"A woman is not - to domineer". A much better translation both in the correct usage of the word, and in using the proper grammar.

Strange how KJV translators decided to make this a verse to keep women from teaching and preaching, by actually using the wrong word, and how many translators have continued this outright error.

The part about "not teaching" comes from the same cultural background. Women who were not studied in the Word of God, were not teach, because they needed to learn first. So, once again, KJV has a bad translation for the word ἡσυχίᾳ or asuchia. It means "quiet" not silent. So we cannot base our exegesis on the word "silent."

In fact, the later part of this statement in 2:12 is very liberating for women. First, they are allowed to learn. So Paul is encouraging women to "study to show themselves approved." The other thing is, when a rabbi took on students, they had to sit quietly to learn. So these women are being equated with rabbinical students.

Thus, a faulty translation to discourage women from following the call of God. God called me twice to go to seminary, and the first time I disobeyed God because of passages like 1 Tim. 2:12. How grateful I am that God called me a second time, to learn, to grow and to follow God's calling on my life. So for those of you who do not know, I am an ordained pastor.

Although I will say Eph. 4:11 is incorrect also in many translations of the Greek.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Eph. 4:11 KJV


"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers," Eph. 4:11 ESV

"αὐτὸς ἔδωκεν τοὺς μὲν ἀποστόλους, τοὺς δὲ προφήτας, τοὺς δὲ εὐαγγελιστάς, τοὺς δὲ ποιμένας καὶ διδασκάλους," Eph. 4:11 Greek

Poimenas or ποιμένας is the plural of poimane and it does mean shepherd. In fact the NT has no actual word "pastor" in it anywhere. So perhaps we need to use a different word, instead of "pastor" myself included!

Finally, to point out one more error in KJV, the word "some" or tis, ti, in the Greek does not appear in Eph. 4:11. The word used, as you can see above in the Greek is tous, which is the accusative case article plural, or "the." That is a lot of mistakes for one passage!

Sorry, not going to exegete 1 Cor. 14. This post is already too long. Maybe later??

Continue to attack the KJV, but God always sees that His word is honored. Can you please give us a Bible that we can trust every word to be right.

 

[Angela53510]

Continue to attack the KJV, but God always sees that His word is honored. Can you please give us a Bible that we can trust every word to be right.

ESV is a lot closer than KJV, for sure. But the Masoretic text for the OT and either Åland Nestle or UBS Greek is the way to go, since the Greek versions note all the textual variations.

That require learning Hebrew and Greek. But seriously, ESV is modern, and although I don't agree with every word, it is probably the best modern translation.

 

[PoetMary]

Sociology 101. America is a matriarchal society.

A matriarchy is a social organizational form in which the mother or oldest female heads the family. Descent and relationship are determined through the female line. It is also government or rule by a woman or women. While those definitions apply in general English, definitions specific to the disciplines of anthropology and feminismdiffer in some respects.
Most anthropologists hold that there are no known societies that are unambiguously matriarchal, but some authors believe exceptions may exist or may have. Matriarchies may also be confused with matrilineal,matrilocal, and matrifocal societies. A few people consider any non-patriarchal system to be matriarchal, thus including genderally equalitarian systems, but most academics exclude them from matriarchies strictly defined.

This is from wikipedia. Feel free to quote from any Sociology textbook that claims that the United States is a matriarchy.

 

[Gr8grace]

TIme for me to jump in and discuss this with my friend, Crossnote!


"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV

"διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ." 1 Tim. 2:12 Greek.

Authority - in Greek, Exousia. A noun in both languages.

Authentein - αὐθεντεῖν. Authentein. NOT authority in Greek! This word is a verb - and infinitive, to be exact. That means, the translation needs to be "to....." So authority does not fit this at all. A noun, not a verb, and an infinitive at that. So translators literally need to add the word "exercise" because authority does not work in this sentence.

αὐθεντεῖν is also a hapax legomena. That is a word that is used only ONCE in the Bible. So Paul used it for a reason, because he has written in other places about "authority," (Romans 7:1, 13:1, 13:2, 13:3; 1 Cor. 9:18, 11:10, 15:24; 2 Cor. 10:8, 13:10; Eph. 1:21, 2:2; Col. 2:10; 1 Tim. 2:2, Titus 2:5) I think we an safely assume he knows the difference between exousia and authentein.

Because authentein appears no where else in the Bible, we have to look at extra-biblical contemporaneous sources to try and get a handle on the meaning. First, we know it has to be a verb, and not a noun. But this word actually has over 50 meanings. So if you look at the frequency of where the word appears the most, and drop off the meanings that obviously don't apply here (like murder and copulate) the most common use of this word is "domineer."

So most likely, Paul is speaking to Timothy, in a private letter about a situation in Ephesus, which is likely to do with the priestesses of Diana or Artemis, coming in and domineering meetings. And not just in teaching, but in worship, and maybe trying to cause problems, so people will leave the church and go back to the temple of Artemis. (So very much cultural and situational, not universal!)

Paul is chiding the women for two reasons. One - because they are not to dominate the assembly and the men leaders. Why are the men leaders only? Because Jewish, Greek and Roman women were not generally taught to read, or to learn. So the men were the ones who could quote the OT and also read any of the letters of Paul or the other Apostles, which were circulating by then.

"A woman is not - to domineer". A much better translation both in the correct usage of the word, and in using the proper grammar.

Strange how KJV translators decided to make this a verse to keep women from teaching and preaching, by actually using the wrong word, and how many translators have continued this outright error.

The part about "not teaching" comes from the same cultural background. Women who were not studied in the Word of God, were not teach, because they needed to learn first. So, once again, KJV has a bad translation for the word ἡσυχίᾳ or asuchia. It means "quiet" not silent. So we cannot base our exegesis on the word "silent."

In fact, the later part of this statement in 2:12 is very liberating for women. First, they are allowed to learn. So Paul is encouraging women to "study to show themselves approved." The other thing is, when a rabbi took on students, they had to sit quietly to learn. So these women are being equated with rabbinical students.

Thus, a faulty translation to discourage women from following the call of God. God called me twice to go to seminary, and the first time I disobeyed God because of passages like 1 Tim. 2:12. How grateful I am that God called me a second time, to learn, to grow and to follow God's calling on my life. So for those of you who do not know, I am an ordained pastor.

Although I will say Eph. 4:11 is incorrect also in many translations of the Greek.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Eph. 4:11 KJV


"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers," Eph. 4:11 ESV

"αὐτὸς ἔδωκεν τοὺς μὲν ἀποστόλους, τοὺς δὲ προφήτας, τοὺς δὲ εὐαγγελιστάς, τοὺς δὲ ποιμένας καὶ διδασκάλους," Eph. 4:11 Greek

Poimenas or ποιμένας is the plural of poimane and it does mean shepherd. In fact the NT has no actual word "pastor" in it anywhere. So perhaps we need to use a different word, instead of "pastor" myself included!

Finally, to point out one more error in KJV, the word "some" or tis, ti, in the Greek does not appear in Eph. 4:11. The word used, as you can see above in the Greek is tous, which is the accusative case article plural, or "the." That is a lot of mistakes for one passage!

Sorry, not going to exegete 1 Cor. 14. This post is already too long. Maybe later??

So Paul Might be saying that women should not domineer men in the local assembly. And teaching should be with authority.

Not convinced for me.

Paul absolutely does not allow woman to have authority or maybe domineer over men. And true bible doctrine is with authority.

ouk~~Strong negative. Paul ABSOLUTELY does not allow a woman to have authority, or in your words, domineer over a man.........And true bible doctrine is taught with authority or dominance with the man who has the gift.

 

[DaTK]

Very Fascinating

 

[Angela53510]

So Paul Might be saying that women should not domineer men in the local assembly. And teaching should be with authority.

Not convinced for me.

Paul absolutely does not allow woman to have authority or maybe domineer over men. And true bible doctrine is with authority.

ouk~~Strong negative. Paul ABSOLUTELY does not allow a woman to have authority, or in your words, domineer over a man.........And true bible doctrine is taught with authority or dominance with the man who has the gift.

Did you miss the part in my post that talked about the culture in Ephesus, and the private letter Paul wrote to Timothy to help him deal with the situation?

Of course women are not to domineer over men. But neither are men to domineer women! Yes, Paul tells Timothy to NOT allow women to dominate. But that was with regards to a specific situation, which is why Paul addressed the letter to the young leader, Timothy. He did not address this in his letters which were passed around to be read openly to all the congregations in Asia Minor.

Therefore, not universal but cultural!

 

[yoninah]

Authentein - αὐθεντεῖν. Authentein. NOT authority in Greek!

The web page that a couple oif us have linked to examines the use of this word and goes with 'usurp authority' based on its extra-Biblical uses because, as you point out (and I did earier), it doesn't mean 'authority' in Greek.

But, again - and I say this to others who have posted here - if you don't interpret the I Tim passage with the foundation of the Bible behind you, you are in error.

 

[yoninah]

Authentein - αὐθεντεῖν. Authentein. NOT authority in Greek!

Oh, and one other thing I forgot to add - the I Tim passage says that a woman 'mustn't have authority' and that 'she is saved by bearing children'. The text runs that the latter is what undermines and stops the former. No one - as far as I can see - has explained this. The web page linked to has, of course, because it views all Scripture relating to women and paints as wide and as accurate a picture on ALL the Scriptures not just what I Tim might be pressed to mean by those who detest women and their relevancy to the proclamation of the Gospel.

 

[wolfwint]

I just received the question from one of my friends, What is the best explanation to this?

1Ti 2:11-14
(11) Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively.
(12) I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.
(13) For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve.
(14) And it was the woman, not Adam, who was deceived by Satan, and sin was the result.

Is there a mixup of the Jewish culture and christianity?

If you read Genesis 3,16, then 1. Tim 2, 12-14 comes to a clear sense. I never read in the bible that woman should not preach because the are not able to do that.
But and this is the main point and it is not a cultural problem. When a woman preaches/teaches, she has automaticly authority over man. And this as Paul said: I will not allow to teach!!
I know today many christians dont agree with it.
But this is a problem generaly with the scripture. That the time spirit is relevating the word of god. I would encourage to have the view which the bible writers had when they wrote leaded from the Holy Spirit and not what some bible outlayers have today. In germany present it becomes big issue in the protestant church, that homosexuell people can have the same level than man and wife when they marry. I mean the bible is clear in this. If we follow the time spirit we will turn on a wrong way.

 

[didymos]

I just received the question from one of my friends, What is the best explanation to this?

1Ti 2:11-14
(11) Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively.
(12) I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.
(13) For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve.
(14) And it was the woman, not Adam, who was deceived by Satan, and sin was the result.

Is there a mixup of the Jewish culture and christianity?

Women are NOT allowed to preach, Scripture is very clear about that (let no liberal contextualized interpretation confuse you). Apart from that I'm no fan of women preaching; they usually don't concentrate on the Word, but focus on human feelings, poems, stories about refugees and little bunny rabbits and such so no thanks.