Revelation Timeline

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DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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Originally Posted by DiscipleDave


Tell me, Does God require a person to study Hebrew and Greek in order to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH?

Seek the Truth through Prayer and from the help of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. Those who seek the Truth via some other way, is trying to enter the field NOT though the gate. i in the past studied Hebrew and Greek extensively, it is but dung compared to what God can teach you.
A person who reads a verse in the Bible and merely believes what it says, is far better off than a person who reads a verse in the Bible, don't believe what it plainly says, and therefore goes to the Hebrew and/or Greek to try to get a better understanding of what the verse is actually trying to say. There will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

^i^
i agree, however is our faith a blind faith? Should we not search diligently? Study to show yourself approved?
Sure we are to study to show ourselves approved, but it does not say to study Hebrew and Greek to show thyself approved does it? We are to study the Word of God to show ourselves approved. i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, and am still learning from the Word of God each time i read it. And we are to search diligently in the Word of God.

Are you saying I'm doing something wrong by doing deep studies to insure what I read is accurate according to scripture?
And therein is your confessed error. Are we not to BELIEVE what it says, NOT try to prove it is accurate or not? My point is if you have to go to the Hebrew and Greek to INSURE that what you are reading is accurate, then you already lack Faith that it IS ACCURATE? But you have made my point exactly. Many who read a verse in the Bible that they do NOT believe is accurate, will take that verse to the Hebrew and Greek. WHY? because they do not believe what the verse says.

If someone doesn't have a mentor and is a new convert should they should just sit there and read the bible only guessing at the interpretation?
Again, another confessed error. Who made you an interpreter of the Word of God? If you have studied the Word of God itself, you would have learned interpretations belong to GOD, NOT to men.

Gen 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.


God told Joseph what the interpretation was. Joseph did not interpret anything at all.

Gen 41:16 And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace.


Joseph himself testifies that the interpretation is NOT in him. But God will give the interpretation of it.

Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;


Even the Prophet Daniel taught us that it is God that revealeth secrets. God told Daniel what the interpretation of the Kings dream was. It was NOT Daniel that interpreted the Dream. The interpretation was given to Daniel by God. Again i will say, Daniel did not do the interpretation, God told Daniel what the interpretation was.

Many people from this generation interprets the Word of God through their own intellect, their own studies, and then turn around and teach others THEIR interpretation of the Word of God, wicked and evil generation this is. God reveals secrets to His prophets. God interprets the Word of God, but leave it to this wicked generation to interpret the Word of God and then teach others that their interpretation is TRUTH, they will not escape the wrath of God when it comes upon the Earth. They have altogether FAILED to learn and understand the TRUTH, that interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN.

Yes the bible is the ultimate source. And yes, if what I read doesn't match scripture then I throw it away.
If you testify that the Bible is the ultimate source, then what need is there to go to another source?

God has given me a brain and I must use it to glorify Him. When I do this and am true to the gospel then what else matters.
i am not saying studying the Hebrew and Greek is wrong, or sinful, only saying it is a waste of time, when you can be reading and studying the Word of God instead. As i said above, i have read the entire Word of God front to back over 80 times in my life and am still learning. i would have been able to say "i have read the entire Word of God front to back over 90 times in my life and am still learning" if i did not waste time by all the study i did in the Hebrew and Greek.

and to answer your question. No a person does not have to refer back to Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew in order to find truth. Truth, as you know, is absolute. It can be found anywhere God desires it to be shown. (Mainly His Word)
Agreed.

^i^
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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This is going to be difficult, since I'm not looking back to everything I wrote as a reference:



My reply on that referred you to Dan.8 about the 2300 days. I assumed you already knew about the "one week" division written in Dan.9:27, which is about the 3.5 years, or 1260 days, or a time, times and a half elsewhere in the Book of Daniel. If I had to quote every piece of that, I might as well have run through Dan.2 all the way to the end of Dan.12 to cover those things, which I assumed you already knew. I don't have time to go to that depth, nor would the moderators allow it here.

The 2300 days of Dan.8 ends with the full end of the 70 weeks Dan.9 prophecy, with the cleansing of the sanctuary. So that end is the ending anchor point for the 2300 days. The only other thing left to do is count from the end backwards with that 2300 days within the "one week" timing of Dan.9:27, which divides the first 1260 days of the "one week" into two other periods of 220 days and 1040 days (220 + 1040 = 1260 days of the first half of Daniel's final "one week").

I already read where you agree a temple at the end must be built. Per the Dan.9:27 and Dan.11 Scripture, sacrifices and the oblation must occur prior to the one of Dan.9:27 ending them in the middle of the "one week". Simple. That automatically points to the existence of another temple with old covenant sacrifices having started up again. Thus the two subjects, building of the temple, and sacrifices, fall within the first 1260 days period, prior to the AOD of Dan.9:27 and Dan.11 being placed which ends those sacrifices. Thus my speculation that the first small period of 220 days is about the building of that temple and the 1040 days is when sacrifices and services are established. The 2300 days prophecy in Dan.8 gives us that division in the first half of the "one week".



Yes, there are other references, but they involve 'when' that "another beast" working will be. That "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, who works the wonders and miracles in the sight of men, is the same one our Lord Jesus warned of in Matt.24:23-26, and Paul warned of in 2 Thess.2:3-4. Those 3 Scripture examples tie together about the coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem to play God, working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world into worshiping him as The Messiah, i.e, Christ, or whatever messiah type other religions are expecting (like Islam's Mahdi).

Jesus showed a specific timing for that false one's appearance, during the time of "great tribulation" He warned of there in Matt.24 and Mark 13. He even linked that false one's coming there to the placing of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel. Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 gave a specific timing for that false one being revealed also, prior to Christ's coming and gathering of His Church, which again, points directly to the time of "great tribulation" Jesus taught. Because the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward is the same false one working those great signs and wonders, that links to the timings Jesus and Paul gave us. It puts the events of Rev.13:11 forward in the "great tribulation" timing.

When our Lord Jesus quoted from Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" for the "great tribulation" period in Matt.24, that linked to the Dan.9:27 and Dan.11 prophecy of when... that AOD will be placed, i.e., right in the middle of the "one week", which shows the tribulation time is the latter 1260 days period of that "one week" of Dan.9:27.

I'll stop here for now. I'm going to have to copy what you first wrote and my reply to refer to it to go any further.
Brother, please just show me Scriptures which proves something in the timeline is INCORRECT. So far all i have seen is your opinion why something is incorrect, then you give references to your opinion. Please show me references that contradict what i have in the time line, NOT references to your opinion why YOU think the timeline is wrong. Show me concrete Scriptures that contradict what is in the timeline. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

^i^
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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In line 4, you have "Mark of the Beast Optional" in the first 1260 day period. I disagree with that. The mark we are shown in Rev.13:11 forward isn't instituted until that "another beast" begins to demand to be worshiped. For that to occur, the AOD must be in place first, along with his command to be worshiped in place of the sacrifices.
Timeline updated.

Revelation Timeline (uncompleted).jpg

^i^
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
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Brother, please just show me Scriptures which proves something in the timeline is INCORRECT. So far all i have seen is your opinion why something is incorrect, then you give references to your opinion. Please show me references that contradict what i have in the time line, NOT references to your opinion why YOU think the timeline is wrong. Show me concrete Scriptures that contradict what is in the timeline. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

^i^
Ah, you know better than to say something like that, when I have... shown you, and specifically. Not just my opinion either. Because it doesn't align with your belief on men's doctrine of the Pre-trib secret Rapture theory is not enough to throw away the Scripture evidence I pointed you to.

Now the starting of the building of the temple and sacrifices again per the 2300 Dan.8 division of 220 and 1040 days of the first 1260 days half of Dan.9 "one week", you can say that's my opinion when... those events begin. But that division of the 1260 days period by that 2300 days prophecy is not my opinion. Nor is it my opinion when the tribulation period is, nor when the AOD is placed in relation to Daniel's symbolic "one week", etc., etc.
 
S

SIRGEORGIAN

Guest
Sure we are to study to show ourselves approved, but it does not say to study Hebrew and Greek to show thyself approved does it? We are to study the Word of God to show ourselves approved. i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, and am still learning from the Word of God each time i read it. And we are to search diligently in the Word of God.


And therein is your confessed error. Are we not to BELIEVE what it says, NOT try to prove it is accurate or not? My point is if you have to go to the Hebrew and Greek to INSURE that what you are reading is accurate, then you already lack Faith that it IS ACCURATE? But you have made my point exactly. Many who read a verse in the Bible that they do NOT believe is accurate, will take that verse to the Hebrew and Greek. WHY? because they do not believe what the verse says.



Again, another confessed error. Who made you an interpreter of the Word of God? If you have studied the Word of God itself, you would have learned interpretations belong to GOD, NOT to men.

Gen 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.


God told Joseph what the interpretation was. Joseph did not interpret anything at all.

Gen 41:16 And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace.


Joseph himself testifies that the interpretation is NOT in him. But God will give the interpretation of it.

Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;


Even the Prophet Daniel taught us that it is God that revealeth secrets. God told Daniel what the interpretation of the Kings dream was. It was NOT Daniel that interpreted the Dream. The interpretation was given to Daniel by God. Again i will say, Daniel did not do the interpretation, God told Daniel what the interpretation was.

Many people from this generation interprets the Word of God through their own intellect, their own studies, and then turn around and teach others THEIR interpretation of the Word of God, wicked and evil generation this is. God reveals secrets to His prophets. God interprets the Word of God, but leave it to this wicked generation to interpret the Word of God and then teach others that their interpretation is TRUTH, they will not escape the wrath of God when it comes upon the Earth. They have altogether FAILED to learn and understand the TRUTH, that interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN.



If you testify that the Bible is the ultimate source, then what need is there to go to another source?



i am not saying studying the Hebrew and Greek is wrong, or sinful, only saying it is a waste of time, when you can be reading and studying the Word of God instead. As i said above, i have read the entire Word of God front to back over 80 times in my life and am still learning. i would have been able to say "i have read the entire Word of God front to back over 90 times in my life and am still learning" if i did not waste time by all the study i did in the Hebrew and Greek.



Agreed.

^i^

I'm not sure how we got here lol. Mostly my fault I think. My written communication is lacking. Saying that I appreciate your responses. However, I never claimed to study Hebrew or Greek and I never claimed to only study anything other than the bible. I study the bible, although I lack there as well. I use the Hebrew and Greek to help enhance my studies from time to time, last resort type thing. I don't use Hebrew, Greek to prove anything. I believe the bible is God's word without error. However, I am not without error, I'm tarnished with sin so when using "other" trusted materials I am making sure I'm not improperly reading God's perfect word. Since we are in a revelation chat we can use it for an example. Who is right, Dispensationalism view? (an evangelical futurist interpretive system for understanding the overall flow of the Bible. Pre or Post? amillennialism? They are all interpretations. So by using these tools which go hand in hand with God's revealed truth (the bible was written in Hebrew, Greek) am I not being faithful to the bible?

Do do you read commentaries? When you state something are you claiming to be the divine or used by the divine? Yes Joseph didn't interpret but he was a tool for God to interpret. Just like other books aren't divine they still may have truth in them. AS LONG AS THEY DON'T CONTRADICT THE BIBLE.

i hope I cleared my thoughts properly but one more question. You "rebuked" everything except my last section. The section where I more or less summarized my argument.?! How can we agree on that but not the rest? The gospel is the end game. Not how many times we read or don't read the bible. The Pharisees did this. Nothing wrong with it until it becomes about what we sinners did for the gospel and not what the gospel did for the us sinners.
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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In line 5 - you have the "Great Falling Away" in the first 1260 days half of Daniel's symbolic "one week". Per 2 Thess.2:3-4, it's when the false one sits in the temple showing himself that he is God, and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, is when the great falling away occurs.
It is your opinion that the Great Falling away happens at the exact same time as the false one sits in the Temple. In reading II Thess 2: 3-4 There is no indication whatsoever that they happen simultaneously. It only states that those things must happen first before Christ Returns. The Falling away could happen 3 1/2 years prior to the false one sitting in the Temple and II Thess 2:3-4 would still be Correct. The Falling away is not a single event. The Falling away happens during the whole of the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period. However most will fall away as soon as Tribulation starts, and they are those who believed in a pre-trib Rapture. When Tribulation starts and Jesus DID NOT COME as they have falsely believed their entire lives, will lose Faith altogether that any of it was real, these will fall away from the Faith. When the Tribulation starts all the way up to the point Christ Returns there will be people who fall away from the Faith, Not only the Christian Faith, but all faiths of the world will be falling away during this 3 1/2 year period.

It coincides with his being revealed in the temple exalted as God.
It is your opinion they coincide. Scriptures does not teach they do. If you think Scriptures does, then show the verse where Scriptures teach they coincide.

Paul called that event the "strong delusion" in that 2 Thess.2 chapter.
The Strong Delusion is not a reference to the Falling away though. The strong delusion is to those who will believe the false one is the Messiah. When the antichrist appears on the stage of the world, the Jews will believe he is the promised Messiah. Likewise the Muslims will also believe he is their promised Mahdi (Messiah) This is the only reason their is a Peace agreement between Israel and Jerusalem, the only reason the Temple is allowed to be built.

I realize many preachers today claim that falling away is about believers that stray in their daily living away from Christ, quit going to Church, quit reading their Bible, and basically beginning to alienate our Lord Jesus in their lives, but that is only a prep for the coming "strong delusion", and not the actual "strong delusion" itself, which will be that false one actually proclaiming to be God and working the great signs, wonders, and miracles that will cause even many atheists to believe.
The antichrist will be working all those great signs, wonders, and miracles during his reign. his reign is the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period. The Strong delusion happens during his reign. It is at the end of the 3 1/2 years that the desolation happens, which is at that time when the Jew realized that he is NOT the Messiah, it is also when the Muslems realize he is not their Mahdi, hence the reason the Peace agreement is broken. Also just as a side note. the antichrist does not proclaim himself to be God, it will be the Jews and the Muslims which proclaim him to be God. The antichrist (atheist) takes advantage of this, not that he thinks he IS God, because he does not believe in any God whatsoever, but if the Jews and the Muslims want to give him the Power of a God, he will take it. He will be their God.

.... ... ..... ... .. . .. .....but that is only a prep for the coming "strong delusion", and not the actual "strong delusion" itself, which will be that false one actually proclaiming to be God and working the great signs, wonders, and miracles that will cause even many atheists to believe. Thus, that period is set for the latter half of Daniel's "one week", the latter 1260 days period, which is the actual time of "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus warned.
The antichrist will have no power at all during the last half of the 7 year tribulation period, that is why i changed the timeline to reflect what it does now. Jesus Christ is here at the 7th Trumpet, it is at this time when Jesus becomes KING of all kings of the Earth, even the antichrist. When Christ gets here after 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period, the antichrist will have no power at all. Of coarse it will be him who rallys the nations to attack Jesus (Holy City) when it first gets here, but in one days time, all of Jesus enemies that come against Him will be utterly destroyed.

Also on line 5 - you have "Nations Fight Against Christ" within... the latter 1260 day period of the "one week", when that event is actually at the end of the latter 1260 days period when Jesus returns.
Please look at the Timeline, Nations fight against Christ is not indicated during the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week, but is plainly pointing at the line which indicates the Time of the Rapture. When Jesus shows up in the New City Jerusalem, this is when the nations come against Him, this is the time they will attack. It is not possible to attack Jesus before He gets here. Therefore Jesus must arrive here, before He is attacked. Therefore Jesus arrives, which starts the last part of the 3 1/2 year of the Tribulation Period (7 vials) So then at the start of the latter 3 1/2 years is when they will attack Him.

That is when He gathers His Church
The teaching that He gathers His Church at the 7th Vial contradicts other inspired by God verses in Scriptures, therefore can't possibly be correct. God told me "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is WRONG" Scriptures plainly teach the Rapture happens at the last Trumpet sounding, which is the 7th Trumpet of Revelations.

That is when He gathers His Church and fights the battle of Armageddon of Rev.16 on the final 7th Vial, because notice at Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial He is still warning His Church of His coming "as a thief" (which ties to 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10 about the "day of the Lord" events that will end this present world. The events of Rev.9:12 through Rev.11:15 are on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, and that is when the latter 1260 days period is, with the devil in control upon the earth over all nations, and that is the time of "great tribulation".
Revelations 16:15 is not a warning to the Church DURING the time of the 6th vial. It is merely a warning to the Church for those who will be reading Revelations prior to His coming. Jesus comes as a thief in the night, and Scriptures plainly teaches it is at the last Trumpet sounding, it does NOT teach it is at the 6th vial or at the last vial being poured out. Verse 15 was included for OUR sakes, those who would be reading it NOW. That warning could have been written in any one of the 7 vials being poured out. my point is just because it was written in the 6th vial does not mean that is when Christ would return, it was written merely as a warning to the Church, those who would be reading Revelations in the future. Scriptures does not teach Christ is going to get the Church at the last Trumpet sounding AND also going to get the Church at the 6th or 7th vial. Scriptures plainly teach He is going to get His Church at the last Trumpet sounding, therefore the interpretation that He is going to get the Church at the 6th or 7th vial because of what verse 15 says, Can't possibly be TRUE. Therefore verse 15 is merely a warning to the CHURCH, those who would be reading Revelations prior His Return.

In line 6 - you have the Seals prior to the "one week" and going into the first 1260 days a little, then the trumpets blown in the first 1260 days, and then the vials in the latter 1260 days. Per our Lord Jesus' parable of the fig tree, all the signs He gave upon the Mount of Olives (Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21) are for the final generation that will see His 2nd coming. He only gave us 7 Signs in that, not 21. In Revelation He went into more detail with 3 sets of those same 7 Signs. So I do not interpret those as men's traditions do like you have them.
And who made you an interpreter? Do you think you are so special that you can interpret the Word of God? If YOU interpret the Word of God, how is that not from YOU? From your own MIND? Your own Thoughts, your own intellect? Your own opinions, your own ideals? This generation does greatly error in adding their own intepretations to the Word of God, as if men could actually do that. Those who try to interpret the Word of God via their own selves opens the door for satan to enter into the process of that interpretation. INTERPRETATIONS belong to God NOT to men.

Our Lord Jesus returns and gathers His Church on the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial is what I see.
Are you one of those people who will hold on to what you see, over and above what Scriptures actually teaches? Many people teach that the 7th Trumpet and 7th vial are one and the same. But does Scriptures teach that? Or is that yet another interpretation done by men persuaded by satan, because they try to interpret the Word of God.

So then according to your statement above "Our Lord Jesus returns and gathers His Church on the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial " So are you saying there are Two Raptures? Scriptures only teach of one. So then if your not saying there are two Raptures then you must be saying the 7th Trumpet and the 7th vial are one and the same, the same event described two different ways. If you seriously want the Truth, i hope you will believe the Scriptures which plainly PROVES they are not the same thing, not the same event. Consider:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; (This is the 7th Trumpet sounding) and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail
.


When, according to the Inspired by God Scriptures, was the Temple of God in Heaven opened? It was opened at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Now what does Scriptures teach about what comes out of the Temple?

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles
.

So Scriptures plainly teach that when the temple was opened in Heaven, 7 Angels came out of the Temple to pour out the 7 plagues.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

So recapping: When was the Temple of God in Heaven opened? at the 7th Trumpet. And what came out of the Temple once it was opened? The 7 Angels with the 7 vials. So then how can it possible be that the 7th vial and the 7th Trumpet are one and the same? It is that the 7th Trumpet that the Temple is opened, then after it is opened is when the the first vial is poured out, then the second, then the third, then the fourth, then the fifth, then then the sixth, then the seventh. How then can the pouring of the 7th vial be the same as the 7th Trumpet which started the pouring out of all the vials? You do error thinking they are one and the same. The Question now is will you continue to hold on to your own interpretation or believe what the Word of God teaches? Will you change your belief to match Scriptures, or do what this generation does best and change the Scriptures to match your belief?

Again, remember at Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial, He is still warning His Church that He comes "as a thief", and for us to keep our garments lest we appear in shame; and that ties directly to the timing of the "day of the Lord" which Paul and Peter both taught is at the end of this world (as also written in the OT prophets).
Verse 15 is indeed a warning to the Church, it is not a warning to a Church during the pouring out of the 6th vial, because the Church was Raptured up at the last Trumpet sounding, right before the 7 vials were to be poured out afterwards.

Is it not men's interpretation that teaches if a verse is mentioned in this place or that place it means that is what is to be in that place or this place? Is it not men's interpretation that teaches if something is NOT mentioned in a particular event that means it does not exist during that event? Men with their interpretation have been misinterpreting the Word of God since the Word of God came out. Saying such things like, because the Church is not mentioned during chapters such and such, that means the Church is NOT there. or because the Church is warned in telling of the prophesy concerning the pouring of the vials, that means the Church is still there during the pouring of the vials. All interpretations of men, and NOT from God.

And here is a warning to all of you who interpret the Word of God, Interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN, you have been warned.

In the Millennium timing, where you have "Age Limit Restored", I disagreed with that. This is what I wrote, which I still hold to:

During the thousand years, you have an idea there about age limit restored. Not sure what you mean by that.
And how difficult is it to ask "What do you mean by that?" Also it is not my ideal, it is what God has revealed to me. Please do not give me credit for something He has given me.

My understanding is that everyone alive on earth on the last day when Jesus comes, will be changed to the "spiritual body"
This understanding comes from interpretations of men, not from Scriptures.

Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 with the "last trump" sounding, the 7th of Rev.11 (see also Isaiah 25 about the idea of death swallowed in victory, who all it is to). Man's time in a flesh body will then be over forever.
Man's time in the flesh will then be over forever. Scripture please. or is this but another interpretation of Scriptures made by man.

The wicked outside the gates of the holy city will still be subject to perish though, the "second death", and will be in that state throughout Christ's thousand years reign. Those are the nations outside the holy city which Christ with His elect will reign over with a rod of iron in that time (Rev.22:14-15 and Rev.20 and end of Zech.14).
Christ will reign over them for 3 1/2 years after His arrival here on Earth. He will rule them with an rod of iron. But during this time those same wicked, those who were not taken up with Him when He got here, are being wiped out by the pouring of the vials, as you see in the Timeline. Christ Returns, then the vials are poured out. It is because of the vials being poured out upon them, that the battle of Armageddon takes place, led by the antichrist, which lost His power when Christ showed up and became King of Kings of the Earth.

^i^
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
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Originally Posted by DiscipleDave


If i say "Jesus shall confirm the names in the Book of Life" Does that mean this has already taken place? Surely you know prophesies most of the time can have duel meaning. The statement "He shall confirm" can apply to any time in the future, because of the word "Shall" So at the time of that particular writing when that statement was written "He shall confirm" is to mean something AFTER the time of that particular writing, you agree with that yes? i mean at the moment in time that Daniel wrote that prophesy, it was not yet fulfilled correct? So then that prophecy can be fulfilled at any time in the future AFTER Daniel spoke it, correct? So then the question is when? KJV1611 believes it was fulfilled at the time of Jesus, Others believe it is still yet to be fulfilled. my point is this, the prophesy that Daniel gave, could be fulfilled ANY time AFTER it was given. It could have been 2000 years ago, or it could still yet happen. And KJV1611 just because you believe it was already fulfilled in the past, DOES NOT MEAN it can't possibly be fulfilled again in the future. Duel prophecies.

^i^
We don't have to guess when the covenant was confirmed, we are told in Galatians that the covenant was confirmed in Christ.
That is True, but you seem to not know there are many covenants made throughout the entire Bible. So then is it not True that the covenant that was confirmed in Christ you are assuming is the SAME covenant that is being discussed here?

All the promises made to Abraham were to Abraham and his seed Christ. The promises were confirmed when the promised seed Christ came. Do you see what I'm talking about?
Sure, one of many promises was fulfilled when Christ came. but all promises were not accomplished with Jesus on His first visit as a man. Scriptures teach that Abraham looked for a City to come, one that was not made with hands. How did He know of the Holy City New Jerusalem, He was told about it by God. This promise that was apparently made to Abraham has not been accomplished even though He looked for it. As i said before, by Christ coming sure one covenant was confirmed, but there are MANY covenants.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


This has not yet been fulfilled.

The promises made to Abraham are moot if Jesus doesn't come but he did come and that confirmed that yes the promises made to Abraham will come to fruition... it's a done deal and can't be undone.
Again there are many covenants, not just the one.

Galatians 3:17 KJV
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
The covenant of the Law, was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The covenant of circumcision was fulfilled by Abraham, when he did as per the agreement, circumcised all the males. Christ fulfilled the Law, fulfilled that covenant, this is all True.

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DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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Originally Posted by DiscipleDave


oohh i know this one.

The covenant that will be agreed upon will be between the Muslims and Jerusalem, it will be a 7 year peace agreement brought about by the antichrist, which the whole world will look up to during a time of great distress among all the nations of the world. The Antichrist will be the Jews Messiah, and he will also be the Muslim awaited Messiah "The Mahdi" He will be the one that seems to bring temporary Peace to the known world. This peace agreement, this covenant will be broken after 3 1/2 years when both the Muslims and the Jews realize he is not their messiah.
Where does all of that come from? It's not in the bible, nothing even remotely close.
And if i told you the TRUTH, would you believe it? Nevertheless i will tell the Truth, not because of those who will not believe it, but for those who know the TRUTH when they hear it.

What i teach is what God told me. Is it God's fault that people of this generation does not believe God speaks to people any more? Is it not written God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He spoke to people in the past, is it His fault if the last days generation does not believe God speaks with people any more? What i teach is What God told me. Is it not written to try the Spirits? If something i said above is contrary to Scriptures, then don't believe it and call me false. How is it though with this generation they find what i say NOT to be contrary to Scriptures but contrary to what they themselves believe to be the TRUTH and thereby calling me false, because i teach contrary to what they believe, NOT contrary to what Scritpures teach. Why can't this generation be like the Bereans? When they heard something that they did not believe, what did they do, they went to the Scriptures to see if what was being said lines up with Scriptures, oh how Righteous were the Bereans, comparing what was said to the Word of God itself. No not this generation, this generation stops their ears from hearing when they hear anything that is contrary to what they themselves believe is the TRUTH, and not go to the Scriptures at all. There will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

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DiscipleDave

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Sep 4, 2012
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Originally Posted by DiscipleDave


just a comment, the Jews to this day desire to build a Temple, are you saying that will never happen, that somehow the Jews will no longer desire to have their sins forgiven? Know you not that a True Jew today can't have his sins forgiven because they can't sacrifice animals because they have no Temple, they desire more than anything to have a Temple. But what is stopping them? The Dome of the Rock, the Muslims are stopping them from making a Temple, the Jews would have to destroy the Dome of the Rock in order to build their Temple, if they did so they would be utterly destroyed by the Muslims. So it is only when their is a Peace agreement between the Muslims and the Jews, that they are allowed to rebuild their Temple which they will do, despite those who say there will not be a third Temple.

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Dave,

No doubt, the Jews very much want to rebuild their temple. I was just there in Sept '15 and saw the passion and emotion at the Wailing Wall. I have absolutely no doubt that if given the chance, a 3rd temple would be built. However, as you point out, the Muslims would never let that happen. The Temple could actually be built next to the Dome of the Rock as there is room there without touching one stone of the Dome.
The main problem is that the Jews do not KNOW the exact location of the Holy of Holies, it has been lost in time. It is believed it is right were the Dome of the Rock (Muslim's Mosque) is currently at. To build it next to it would not be correct for them. They have to build the Temple where the Holy of Holies is located, in order for the Priest once a year to go into for the sins of the people. Oh to walk where Jesus actually walked in Jerusalem, i feel Blessed even talking with you, a person who has walked where He walked. For me that probably will not happen until i walk with Him in the Holy City.

I didn't say that a third man-made Jewish Temple would not be built. I merely argued that we have no direct prophesy of one being built.
And you are absolutely correct.

The idea that Jesus would return and enter a man-made Jewish temple is not taught either although many think that He does.
Jesus will not enter into that Temple, The New City Jerusalem is His Temple, His City, His Bride, That Temple comes down out of Heaven to the Earth, where the Earth will forever be its footstool. Being that His Temple comes down out of Heaven to the Earth, there would be no need for Him to enter into a Temple made by human hands. Your are correct again.


I seriously question whether or not Jesus would accept another Temple which represents the Law which He did away with at the Cross. Jesus is not coming back to re-institute the Mosaic Law, so keep that in mind.
All True.

Further, there is no specific and direct prophesy of a Peace Treaty with Israel. Dan 9 does not tell us this.
This is also True, However i know what He told me, and i know there will be a Peace Agreement made. The Jews are to this day looking for the Messiah to come. Likewise the Muslims to this day is looking for their messiah to come as well. The antichrist will be Messiah to both, that is How he causes Peace in the World.

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DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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Originally Posted by PlainWord



Further, there is no specific and direct prophesy of a Peace Treaty with Israel. Dan 9 does not tell us this.
But Daniel 11 does tell us there a pact made in Jerusalem:

Dan 11:21-23
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.


22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.


23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV
What PlainWord said is still True. But what you say here is also TRUE.

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DiscipleDave

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Sep 4, 2012
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Originally Posted by DP


But Daniel 11 does tell us there a pact made in Jerusalem:

Dan 11:21-23
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.


22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.


23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV
This is in the past. A "Vile Person" was Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175 BC -164 BC) who seized the throne through treachery.
"They shall be swept away" refers to the Egyptians. The Prince of the Covenant was Onias III, the high priest in Jerusalem who bore that title.
In Verse 23, the "He" again refers to Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He took from the rich and gave to the poor.
Just because it seems to fulfilled in the past does not mean it can't be fulfilled in the future as well.

Dual Fulfilment of Prophecy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_fulfillment

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DiscipleDave

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Originally Posted by DiscipleDave


Brother, please just show me Scriptures which proves something in the timeline is INCORRECT. So far all i have seen is your opinion why something is incorrect, then you give references to your opinion. Please show me references that contradict what i have in the time line, NOT references to your opinion why YOU think the timeline is wrong. Show me concrete Scriptures that contradict what is in the timeline. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

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Ah, you know better than to say something like that, when I have... shown you, and specifically.
To tell me specifically is to say something like line 2 is wrong because of this Scripture. i don't want opinions, i don't want interpretations, and i don't want interpretations of Scriptures, i want Scriptures which proves that what the Timeline shows is incorrect. And to my knowledge you have not done that. If you have done that, then excuse my ignorance, and show me again what part you disagree with and what Scriptures is contrary to what is in the Timeline.

Not just my opinion either. Because it doesn't align with your belief on men's doctrine of the Pre-trib secret Rapture theory is not enough to throw away the Scripture evidence I pointed you to.
Again, i am sorry if i did not get what you showed me. Please tell me what you disagree with and show me Scriptures which is contrary to what the Timeline shows. I seriously don't recall you doing this. So then please just tell me which part of the Timeline is wrong, and what Scripture proves is it wrong. What i am asking for is something like this.

Israel Starts Sacrifices is wrong because of this verse xyz:1:2

What i get instead is this:

The Place where you got Israel Starts Sacrifices should not be there, because they do not have a Temple, and verse xyz 1:2 shows that the Temple is not yet built. And then there is the verse xyz 1:2 which states that sacrifices are ceased at the end of the 2569 day of the Sabbath, which correlates with the verse xyz 1:2 and I also believe it can refer to the Desolation of the Temple in verse xyz 1:2 and therefore since no third temple is mentioned in the Bible at all, there is no 3rd temple to be built.

None of which shows me a Scripture which is contrary to what is in the Timeline. And what i get is full of man's interpretation, and opinions. Consider:

The Place where you got Israel Starts Sacrifices should not be there, because they do not have a Temple
(This is an opinion), and verse xyz 1:2 shows that the Temple is not yet built.(Looking up the verse, it does not say there is no Temple, but it is the interpretation of that person saying this verse means there is no Temple) And then there is the verse xyz 1:2-9 which shows that sacrifices are ceased at the end of the 2569 day of the Sabbath, (Shows according to their own interpretations of the 9 verses given, which none of them teach that sacrifices are actually ceased, but is that persons interpretation of those nine verses) which correlates with the verse xyz 1:2 (The verses actually don't correlate with each other at all, but because of that person interpretations of each of the verses, that person believes they do correlate) and I also believe (Opinion) it can refer to the Desolation of the Temple in verse xyz 1:2 and therefore since no third temple is mentioned in the Bible at all,(a method that is used by men who interpret the Word of God) there is no 3rd temple to be built. (All according to that persons interpretations of the verses referenced)

But does that show any Scripture which shows that it is incorrect? NO it does not, because it is full of opinions and man's interpretations. i am not interested (in this thread, start another if you like that would be great) to understand WHY you think it is wrong then give Scriptures based on your own belief and opinions and interpretations. i want to see Scriptures which plainly shows that what is in the Timeline is not Scriptural. Here is the format i am looking for:

This is wrong because of this Scripture.


Now the starting of the building of the temple and sacrifices again per the 2300 Dan.8 division of 220 and 1040 days of the first 1260 days half of Dan.9 "one week", you can say that's my opinion when... those events begin. But that division of the 1260 days period by that 2300 days prophecy is not my opinion. Nor is it my opinion when the tribulation period is, nor when the AOD is placed in relation to Daniel's symbolic "one week", etc., etc.
OK you say all this, and i have no clue whatsoever which part of the Timeline you are disagreeing with, and in this whole comment not one Scripture is given, But you do reference two whole chapters of Dan 8 and 9. Then i turn around and say: "Just tell me what you disagree with, and what Scripture is contrary to what is in the Timeline"

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DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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I'm not sure how we got here lol.
That is something you need to take up with your Mom and Dad, they know how you got here? lol, a little bit of humor there. As you can tell, i'm not that good at it.

Mostly my fault I think. My written communication is lacking.
written communication is inherently lacking to begin with (except if done by God), because 90 percent of communication is not in words, but is body language, which we can't see in writing in these posts.

Saying that I appreciate your responses. However, I never claimed to study Hebrew or Greek and I never claimed to only study anything other than the bible.
i do not recall saying that you did these things. You have to understand, it is the Preacher in me. Most everything i say, it is not to a particular person but to all. If then i make a statement such as "Anyone who studies Hebrew and Greek to learn the TRUTH is seeking to find the TRUTH not through the gate but some other way" i am not saying this to the person whose thread i said that in, but in general.

I study the bible, although I lack there as well.
As do we all.

I use the Hebrew and Greek to help enhance my studies from time to time, last resort type thing. I don't use Hebrew, Greek to prove anything.
Nothing wrong with that.

I believe the bible is God's word without error. However, I am not without error, I'm tarnished with sin so when using "other" trusted materials I am making sure I'm not improperly reading God's perfect word. Since we are in a revelation chat we can use it for an example. Who is right, Dispensationalism view? (an evangelical futurist interpretive system for understanding the overall flow of the Bible. Pre or Post? amillennialism? They are all interpretations.
Sorry, i have no clue what Dispensationalism is or what it means, and have no desire to learn it. Evangelical futurist interpretive system ? Never heard of it and don't care to. Amillennialism? No clue as to what that means or what it is, don't care. What i teach is what God told me, Now what He told me and which i believe, may make me some sort of Title that men give to others. such as if you believe God will come before the Tribulation Period that makes you a pre-trib believer. Or if you believe He comes middle of Tribulations, then you are a mid-trib believer. Or if you believe He comes after the Tribulations that makes you a post-trib believer. i can care less about Titles. i believe the Truth, i know Jesus is coming in the middle of the Tribulation Period because that is what He told me, not because i favor the mid-trib believers, Not because i agree with what mid-tribs teach, not because of my own interpretations which makes me believe mid trib is correct. i believe what God told me, and He told me middle Tribulation Period, so i guess because i believe that He will come during the Tribulation Period, that makes me a mid-trib believer according to men giving out Titles. But Truthfully i can care less about all that, Dispensationalism, Amillennialism, xxxxxxxism, Can care less, i believe and teach the TRUTH, no matter what category men class me as based on what i believe.

So by using these tools which go hand in hand with God's revealed truth (the bible was written in Hebrew, Greek) am I not being faithful to the bible?
The Hebrew Bible was written for who? Those who read Hebrew.
The Greek Bible was written for who? Those who read Hebrew.
The English Bible was written for who? Those who read English.
Pretty simple.

Do do you read commentaries?
Yes read a lot of them back when i was studying the Word of God and studying Hebrew and Greek.

When you state something are you claiming to be the divine or used by the divine?
If what i say comes from me, it is not divine. If what i say comes from Him, then it is divine. Everyone is used by the divine, even the antichrist is used by the divine.

Yes Joseph didn't interpret but he was a tool for God to interpret.
Joseph was not a tool for God to interpret. Joseph was like me, a tool for God to repeat what God told him. Joseph did not interpret anything at all, He merely told them what God told him to say. i have not interpreted the Word of God at all, i merely teach this generation what God has told me the Word of God means.

Just like other books aren't divine they still may have truth in them. AS LONG AS THEY DON'T CONTRADICT THE BIBLE.
This is absolutely True. A purpose Driven life is full of Truths, Cost of Discipleship is full of the wisdom of God. i have never said outside sources could not reveal Truths, i encourage people to read books which reference the Word of God all the time. But the difference is people do not study the Book called "A Purpose Driven Life" to validate the Word of God, or to better understand the Word of God, they do not read a verse in Scripture that they do not agree with and go to "A Purpose Driven Life" to see what the verse is actually saying. Other Books which reference Scriptures are basically good. Does the Hebrew and Greek quote Scriptures? Nope. People need to wake up and realize the Hebrew and Greek is for those who read Hebrew and Greek. God made the English Word of God for the English speaking people. leave it to satan to try to convince people that it is not good enough, that they need the Hebrew and Greek to fully understand the Word of God.

i hope I cleared my thoughts properly but one more question. You "rebuked" everything except my last section. The section where I more or less summarized my argument.?!
Sorry, but i don't know what post you are referring to.

How can we agree on that but not the rest? The gospel is the end game. Not how many times we read or don't read the bible. The Pharisees did this. Nothing wrong with it until it becomes about what we sinners did for the gospel and not what the gospel did for the us sinners.
Again, sorry, have no clue to what post you are referring to here.

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G

GaryA

Guest
Daniel 11:

[SUP]31[/SUP]
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. [SUP]32[/SUP] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [SUP]33[/SUP] And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [SUP]34[/SUP] Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [SUP]35[/SUP] And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


The phrases in red indicate "some time" between "now" and "the end"; if "now" is the time of what is happening in verse 31, what does this say about the flow of history with regard to what is happening in verse 31? ;)

:)
But I don't interpret "because it is yet for a appointed time" meaning that. Instead, I interpret it to mean the prophecy Daniel was given for "the time of the end." Compare to Rev.9:15.
The phrase 'because it is yet for a time appointed' indicates that 'it' ( 'the time of the end' ) is "still yet future" -- with the implication that it is by-no-means the near future.

The phrase 'even to the time of the end' indicates a 'continuance' of "And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white" until "the time of the end"...

Taken together, it means that there will be "some time" between what is indicated in verse 35 ( and preceeding verses connected with it ) and "the time of the end"...

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DP

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It is your opinion that the Great Falling away happens at the exact same time as the false one sits in the Temple. In reading II Thess 2: 3-4 There is no indication whatsoever that they happen simultaneously. It only states that those things must happen first before Christ Returns. The Falling away could happen 3 1/2 years prior to the false one sitting in the Temple and II Thess 2:3-4 would still be Correct.
That it doesn't is just your opinion, and forgets the conjunction of the 2 Thess.2:3 verse. The conjunction "and" in that verse ties those two events of the falling away and the revealing of the false one together, as does Paul's idea of the "strong delusion" in that Chapter.

2 Thess 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
KJV

It is your opinion they coincide. Scriptures does not teach they do. If you think Scriptures does, then show the verse where Scriptures teach they coincide.
With v.4, which goes with that event of v.3 is included, that's... what let's us know what that great falling away really is:

2 Thess 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV


When that false one shows up and does that, which is what Paul meant by that one being revealed in verse 3, that will cause the greatest event of deceived believers falling away from Christ that this world will ever have seen. In Matt.24:23-26 our Lord Jesus showed that false one is coming to play Him in Jerusalem. And per the Daniel events about the "vile person", which is this same one that will be revealed in Jerusalem for the end, that false one does not set the abomination idol in place until sacrifices are first ended per Dan.11, which per Dan.9:27 is in the middle of the symbolic "one week" (or at the start of the latter 3.5 years).

The Strong Delusion is not a reference to the Falling away though. The strong delusion is to those who will believe the false one is the Messiah. When the antichrist appears on the stage of the world, the Jews will believe he is the promised Messiah. Likewise the Muslims will also believe he is their promised Mahdi (Messiah) This is the only reason their is a Peace agreement between Israel and Jerusalem, the only reason the Temple is allowed to be built.
Because deceived Jews in Jerusalem will actually believe that false one is God's proclaimed Messiah, that is what makes it the "strong delusion" Paul spoke of. The word delusion is about deceit, fraudulence. That's exactly what that false one coming to play Messiah in Jerusalem is about, a fraud, which is the meaning of Greek pseudo-Christos in Matt.24:24, i.e., a spurious Messiah.

Not only will orthodox Jews fall away to that false one as Messiah, but many Christian brethren will also. Many Churches today support the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem with building their temple again and some with helping them to prepare for sacrifices, sending funds, and some actually sending red heifers (Jesus, Inc. in 1997). Some Churches think if they help the Jews in that, it will help usher in Christ's return.

The antichrist will be working all those great signs, wonders, and miracles during his reign. his reign is the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period. The Strong delusion happens during his reign. It is at the end of the 3 1/2 years that the desolation happens, which is at that time when the Jew realized that he is NOT the Messiah, it is also when the Muslems realize he is not their Mahdi, hence the reason the Peace agreement is broken. Also just as a side note. the antichrist does not proclaim himself to be God, it will be the Jews and the Muslims which proclaim him to be God. The antichrist (atheist) takes advantage of this, not that he thinks he IS God, because he does not believe in any God whatsoever, but if the Jews and the Muslims want to give him the Power of a God, he will take it. He will be their God.
Then you don't believe what Paul really said in verse 4 then, that false one will exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped. That means he is coming to play God in Jerusalem. I wish you could actually know who that false one will be, but evidently your spiritual eyes are still closed to that revelation from God's Word, as many still are today.

The antichrist will have no power at all during the last half of the 7 year tribulation period, that is why i changed the timeline to reflect what it does now. Jesus Christ is here at the 7th Trumpet, it is at this time when Jesus becomes KING of all kings of the Earth, even the antichrist. When Christ gets here after 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period, the antichrist will have no power at all. Of coarse it will be him who rallys the nations to attack Jesus (Holy City) when it first gets here, but in one days time, all of Jesus enemies that come against Him will be utterly destroyed.
You are wrong. It's specifically the latter 1260 days when he will be exalting himself as God in Jerusalem, and demanding all to bow to the "image of the beast" of Rev.13, just as king Nebuchadnezzar did as king of Babylon.

The final battle, which is the Armageddon event at the end of Rev.16, is the final event to end this present world on the "day of the Lord" timing. That is the time of our Lord Jesus' second coming and gathering of His Church. Both Apostles Paul and Peter marked that event of the "day of the Lord" in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10, when Jesus comes "as a thief". Because you're heeding a doctrine of men with the Pre-trib Rapture theory, it has those events confused in your mind as to their order in God's Word.

Please look at the Timeline, Nations fight against Christ is not indicated during the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week, but is plainly pointing at the line which indicates the Time of the Rapture. When Jesus shows up in the New City Jerusalem, this is when the nations come against Him, this is the time they will attack. It is not possible to attack Jesus before He gets here. Therefore Jesus must arrive here, before He is attacked. Therefore Jesus arrives, which starts the last part of the 3 1/2 year of the Tribulation Period (7 vials) So then at the start of the latter 3 1/2 years is when they will attack Him.
That's what men's doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture has taught you. But it's not the true order per God's Word.

On the 6th Vial, in Rev.16:15, the reason our Lord Jesus gave a warning to His Church there that He comes "as a thief", is because His coming is not until the 7th Vial, which is when the "day of the Lord" event is, which is also when the battle of Armageddon happens. That is the timing Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5 when he remarked, that when they (deceived) say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. That day of "sudden destruction" is the "day of the Lord" timing, the time of Jesus coming "as a thief in the night".

In 2 Peter 3:10, Peter also reiterated this point, and gave us yet another point when he linked it with the time of the elements burning up with a fervent heat, which is about God's consuming fire poured out on that "day of the Lord", as they both were covering that from the OT prophets about the "day of the Lord" events. That's the particular "wrath" that Paul was speaking of, i.e, God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked and... Satan's great army out of the northern quarters coming upon God's people to attempt a final destruction. See Zeph.3:8 in conjunction with Zech.14 about that as a plague; and also Ezekiel 38 & 39. This is why the latter part of Zech.14 speaks of the leftovers that came up against Jerusalem on the last day being required to go up to Jerusalem and worship The King, The LORD of hosts from year to year during Christ's Millennial reign.

The teaching that He gathers His Church at the 7th Vial contradicts other inspired by God verses in Scriptures, therefore can't possibly be correct. God told me "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is WRONG" Scriptures plainly teach the Rapture happens at the last Trumpet sounding, which is the 7th Trumpet of Revelations.
No it doesn't. It contradicts the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men. Big difference. The 7th trumpet and 7th vial timing are together. It's because of men's doctrines that they can't understand our Lord Jesus only gave 7 signs in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, which are about the Seals of Rev.6. Rev.6 is even showing our Lord Jesus' coming in the 6th Seal. The very last sign of the end Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 is that of His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church. That ends all reign by the wicked one and his host on earth.

Revelations 16:15 is not a warning to the Church DURING the time of the 6th vial. It is merely a warning to the Church for those who will be reading Revelations prior to His coming. Jesus comes as a thief in the night, and Scriptures plainly teaches it is at the last Trumpet sounding, it does NOT teach it is at the 6th vial or at the last vial being poured out. Verse 15 was included for OUR sakes, those who would be reading it NOW. That warning could have been written in any one of the 7 vials being poured out. my point is just because it was written in the 6th vial does not mean that is when Christ would return, it was written merely as a warning to the Church, those who would be reading Revelations in the future. Scriptures does not teach Christ is going to get the Church at the last Trumpet sounding AND also going to get the Church at the 6th or 7th vial. Scriptures plainly teach He is going to get His Church at the last Trumpet sounding, therefore the interpretation that He is going to get the Church at the 6th or 7th vial because of what verse 15 says, Can't possibly be TRUE. Therefore verse 15 is merely a warning to the CHURCH, those who would be reading Revelations prior His Return.
Did I ever say our Lord Jesus comes on the 6th Vial? No, so you're making stuff up that I didn't say, no doubt doing that to try and discredit.

Jesus comes on the 7th Vial, 7th Trumpet, 6th Seal. All those events are linked together in God's Word, and they aren't that difficult to read and understand.

Within... the 6th Vial timing, which is the Rev.16:15 verse, He is warning all of His Church that is still on earth, not just some "tribulation saints" only idea that the Pre-trib Rapture doctors have fabricated. Then His coming occurs on the 7th Vial with that battle of Armageddon. The 6th Vial timing is the prep period for gathering His enemies together on earth for that final battle He comes to fight. Do you think He didn't know Paul had already taught the Church that His coming will be "as a thief in the night"? Yes He no doubt knew, which is why He gave us that warning that He comes "as a thief" there in Rev.16:15 through His Apostle John. It's a wake up call for His Church to mark the actual time of His coming on the 7th Vial with the "day of the Lord" events Paul and Peter covered.

And who made you an interpreter? Do you think you are so special that you can interpret the Word of God? If YOU interpret the Word of God, how is that not from YOU? From your own MIND? Your own Thoughts, your own intellect? Your own opinions, your own ideals? This generation does greatly error in adding their own intepretations to the Word of God, as if men could actually do that. Those who try to interpret the Word of God via their own selves opens the door for satan to enter into the process of that interpretation. INTERPRETATIONS belong to God NOT to men.
Only by listening to men's doctrine instead of asking our Lord directly for understanding while showing Him disciplined study in His Word can the believer get confused as to the order of events concerning His coming and gathering of His Church. He laid it out plainly in His Word. But there are certain men crept into the Church that are there to deceive, which our Lord also warned us about that too in His Word. Because you have chosen to default to men's doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture theory, confusion away from the times and the seasons in God's Word is what you get. Blame yourself, not me.
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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Originally Posted by DiscipleDave


It is your opinion that the Great Falling away happens at the exact same time as the false one sits in the Temple. In reading II Thess 2: 3-4 There is no indication whatsoever that they happen simultaneously. It only states that those things must happen first before Christ Returns. The Falling away could happen 3 1/2 years prior to the false one sitting in the Temple and II Thess 2:3-4 would still be Correct.
That it doesn't is just your opinion,
Let us assume that it is my opinion. Is that not what i am asking by making this Thread? my point is, lets say it is an opinion that the Falling Away happens during the first 3 1/2 years. Am i not asking for you to show me any Scriptures which proves that to be incorrect? So the question still remains. if you disagree with where i have the Falling away at, then show Scriptures which proves it to be incorrect. This is the whole purpose of this thread, which is revealed in the OP.

That it doesn't is just your opinion, and forgets the conjunction of the 2 Thess.2:3 verse. The conjunction "and" in that verse ties those two events of the falling away and the revealing of the false one together, as does Paul's idea of the "strong delusion" in that Chapter.
OK Consider this example.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Now YOU say because of the conjunction word "AND" that means they happen at the exact same time. So then is the next statement that way also?

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for the Super Bowl shall not come, except the first football game starts, and the playoffs are completed;

Are you trying to tell me, because of the conjunction word "And" that means the first football game and the playoffs are at the exact same time? Well that is exactly what you are doing to the Inspired by God verse above is it not?

Pay attention to the verse itself.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come ( what is He saying here, that day shall not come until, and now He is fixing to give a LIST of things that must happen Before that day shall come) 1) a falling away first (Even in saying "FIRST" indicates this happens BEFORE what comes next), and (Conjunction word, meaning something else in that list) 2) that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

YOUR interpretation of that verse is to tie them together, when that is not what it reveals at all. Jesus merely says, that day shall not come until This AND That is fulfilled. But for some reason ( i would imagine to fit into your own belief) YOU tie them together as being the same event, when there is nothing to indicate that whatsoever, it is only YOUR interpretation that teaches they are the same event, so that it fits your own doctrine.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
KJV



With v.4, which goes with that event of v.3 is included, that's... what let's us know what that great falling away really is:

2 Thess 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV


Verse 4 is ONLY referring to the 2nd part of verse 3.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who (Man of sin) opposeth and exalteth himself (Man of sin) above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he (Man of sin) as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself (Man of sin) that he is God.

Notice verse 4 has nothing to do with whatsoever the Falling away, but is COMPLETELY referring to the Man of sin. So then verse 4, contrary to what you believe, has NOTHING to do with the Falling away, but everything to do with Man of sin.

When that false one shows up and does that, which is what Paul meant by that one being revealed in verse 3, that will cause the greatest event of deceived believers falling away from Christ that this world will ever have seen.
That is your interpretation, NOT what Scriptures teach. Even Jesus Himself in the verse in question plainly teaches the Falling Away happens FIRST, then the revealing of the Man of Sin. Do you believe Scriptures?

In Matt.24:23-26 our Lord Jesus showed that false one is coming to play Him in Jerusalem. And per the Daniel events about the "vile person", which is this same one that will be revealed in Jerusalem for the end, that false one does not set the abomination idol in place until sacrifices are first ended per Dan.11, which per Dan.9:27 is in the middle of the symbolic "one week" (or at the start of the latter 3.5 years).
The Sacrifices end BECAUSE of the abomination. YOU say the Sacrifices are first ended then the abomination take place. Show Scriptures which teaches that. If it is not your interpretation, then show the Scriptures which reveal it.

^i^
 

DiscipleDave

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DiscipleDave said
The Strong Delusion is not a reference to the Falling away though. The strong delusion is to those who will believe the false one is the Messiah. When the antichrist appears on the stage of the world, the Jews will believe he is the promised Messiah. Likewise the Muslims will also believe he is their promised Mahdi (Messiah) This is the only reason their is a Peace agreement between Israel and Jerusalem, the only reason the Temple is allowed to be built.
Because deceived Jews in Jerusalem will actually believe that false one is God's proclaimed Messiah, that is what makes it the "strong delusion" Paul spoke of. The word delusion is about deceit, fraudulence. That's exactly what that false one coming to play Messiah in Jerusalem is about, a fraud, which is the meaning of Greek pseudo-Christos in Matt.24:24, i.e., a spurious Messiah.
OK so you agree with what is said above.

Not only will orthodox Jews fall away to that false one as Messiah, but many Christian brethren will also. Many Churches today support the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem with building their temple again and some with helping them to prepare for sacrifices, sending funds, and some actually sending red heifers (Jesus, Inc. in 1997). Some Churches think if they help the Jews in that, it will help usher in Christ's return.
agreed.

DiscipleDave said
The antichrist will be working all those great signs, wonders, and miracles during his reign. his reign is the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period. The Strong delusion happens during his reign. It is at the end of the 3 1/2 years that the desolation happens, which is at that time when the Jew realized that he is NOT the Messiah, it is also when the Muslems realize he is not their Mahdi, hence the reason the Peace agreement is broken. Also just as a side note. the antichrist does not proclaim himself to be God, it will be the Jews and the Muslims which proclaim him to be God. The antichrist (atheist) takes advantage of this, not that he thinks he IS God, because he does not believe in any God whatsoever, but if the Jews and the Muslims want to give him the Power of a God, he will take it. He will be their God.
Then you don't believe what Paul really said in verse 4 then, that false one will exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped.
Please Reread what i wrote above, i have put in bold, why the false one will exalt Himself. Not because he thinks He IS God, but if they want to make Him a God, He will be their God, thereby exalting Himself as they wanted. Of coarse He exalts Himself, they say He is God, so He will play the part. The antichrist would not be able to exalt himself at all, if it were not for the people who were willing to do it, it will be the people who make him their God. As i said. the antichrist does not believe in a God at all, he will be atheist. After Tribulation starts and billions of people are reaping what they have sown, for it is written if you sow to the flesh of the flesh you SHALL reap corruption. So when Tribulation Starts and billions of people who have stored up wrath for themselves (Christian included, they are not excluded from the Word of God) Stored up wrath for themselves because it is written Tribulation and Anguish upon EVERY soul that does evil, Jews and Gentiles, NOBODY will be able to escape that verse. But when the Tribulation Starts and billions of people are suffering in the flesh because of their own sins they have committed in the past, they will hear a man on the TV world wide saying "Where is your God now?" A Great falling away will begin to happen. All Faiths of the World will be falling away from their Faith because of the destruction, because of the corruption in their flesh, and will they repent of their sins and turn to God, NO, NO, NO. They will curse God because of the corruption in their own flesh, they will not realize they are the one's who brought it upon their own selves by continueing to live in sins day after day after day, sowing in the flesh their sins of the flesh, then when it comes times that the Bible comes True, because God can't lie, and it says if you sow to the flesh of the flesh you shall reap corruption, and since that corruption does not come immediately, (blessed are they that it does) but store up corruption for themselves for the hour of Temptation (to fall away) when that corruption does come when the Tribulation Period begins, they will not understand, they will not repent of their sins, they will not realize they are being punished for their sins, they will doubt God and curse Him because of the corruption which they brought upon themselves. Woe to this generation indeed, for who does not sow to the flesh?

That means he is coming to play God in Jerusalem.
He is coming to play God in Jerusalem, But not because he thinks he is God. He is coming to play God in Jerusalem because Jerusalem will make him God, and therefore because Jerusalem will make him out to be the Son of God, the Messiah, he will do as they want him to do, he will exalt himself to be a God, NOT because he thinks he actually is one, but because that is what the people want, so he will take advantage of it.

Here is an example of what i am trying to say. If you were to go to an island that has never been discovered, ever. and there was a tribe of people there, primitive. But you get there and you can make fire instantly which seems to come out of your hands (lighter in the hand) you can light up the night with blinding light (flashlight) and many other things you do in front of them, these primitive people think you are a God, they begin to worship you, they bring you their daughters to marry, they treat you as a God, whatever you say, they do. Now you take advantage of this, of coarse you exalt yourself to be a God, NOT because you actually believe you are a God, but you are as the people want you to be, they treat you like a God, therefore you will be their God. You even let them call you God. Do you think you are God? No, you know you are not God, but if this primitive people are going to call you a God and treat you like a God, OH, Well go with it, take advantage of it, be their God. Hope that analogy helps, because it is exactly what the antichrist will do. he will be an atheist and a man of science (my opinion, not from God). he will be able to bring down fire from the sky, and it is my opinion (not from God) that he will accomplish that through his knowledge of science not yet discovered by this generation. he will appear to us, even as you appeared to the primitive people of that island above. You are not God, but because of what you know, you sure will be considered one. Because believe it or not, even with all our technology, we are primitive.

I wish you could actually know who that false one will be, but evidently your spiritual eyes are still closed to that revelation from God's Word, as many still are today.
Some things are sealed for a reason. Even if God were to have revealed to me who the antichrist will be, i would not be able to reveal it. And since i would not be able to reveal it, i would rather not have that information, and therefore i never desired to know that information. If the antichrist is revealed, then who would follow him. Scriptures teach that he will decieve many, even the very elect. If he is revealed, how can that be fulfilled? The antichrist is not to be revealed, even if God makes him known to His prophets. There is a specific time that he will be revealed, it is NOT before many things must happen first which concern him.

DiscipleDave said
The antichrist will have no power at all during the last half of the 7 year tribulation period, that is why i changed the timeline to reflect what it does now. Jesus Christ is here at the 7th Trumpet, it is at this time when Jesus becomes KING of all kings of the Earth, even the antichrist. When Christ gets here after 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period, the antichrist will have no power at all. Of coarse it will be him who rallys the nations to attack Jesus (Holy City) when it first gets here, but in one days time, all of Jesus enemies that come against Him will be utterly destroyed.
You are wrong. It's specifically the latter 1260 days when he will be exalting himself as God in Jerusalem, and demanding all to bow to the "image of the beast" of Rev.13, just as king Nebuchadnezzar did as king of Babylon.
OK, YOU say that the antichrist exalts Himself as God in Jerusalem the latter 3 1/2 years. If you can show me the Scriptures which teach as you are saying here, then i will most gladly change the Timeline to reflect that. But on this particular matter i know you can't do that, because there is NO Scriptures that teach what you are saying, it is your opinion that it takes place the latter 3 1/2 years. Notice the Timeline. Jesus comes in the middle of the 7 years. If than He is here on Earth setting up His Kingdom, how can the antichrist set up his kingdom if Jesus is already here ruling with a rod of iron. Now if you don't believe He Returns to the Earth to set up His Kingdom in the middle of the Tribulation Period then show the verses which teach that it can't possibly be that way.

The final battle, which is the Armageddon event at the end of Rev.16, is the final event to end this present world on the "day of the Lord" timing.
You are doing it again brother. Show me any Scriptures which teach that the battle of Armageddon is a final event to end the present world.

That is the time of our Lord Jesus' second coming and gathering of His Church.
So you teach it is NOT at the last Trumpet, but it is at the last vial being poured out? Have you not read the Scriptures which proves the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial are NOT the same event, or do you still hold on to a false doctrine that teaches they are the same event?

Both Apostles Paul and Peter marked that event of the "day of the Lord" in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10, when Jesus comes "as a thief". Because you're heeding a doctrine of men with the Pre-trib Rapture theory, it has those events confused in your mind as to their order in God's Word.
Do you have ears but can't hear? have i not made it perfectly clear in almost every single thread i write in, that what i teach is what God told me. But then you turn around and say something like what you say above. You say i am heeding a doctrine of men with the Pre-trib. Even my Timeline is NOT pretrib. You say i am confused in my own mind yet i plainly say what i teach is from God NOT from my own mind, or my own thinking, why are you saying now that i am heeding a doctrine of men and confused in my mind? Man did not tell me what i teach. God told me what i teach. Here is a Truth, which i am most certainly sure will upset people, but is the Truth none the less. If you disagree with what i teach, then you disagree with what God told me. Which is fine if that is what you desire to do. God told me This. i tell people what God told me, then people turn around and say you believe doctrines of men.

Talking to the public:
What is wrong with the Faith of this generation? Does God speak to people? i testify that He does, i reveal to you what He has told me, but you do not believe, Why? Because the Truth is NOT in you. Those who have Christ Truly in them will recognize the TRUTH when they hear it, not because it is from me, but it is from God.

^i^