Revelation Timeline

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave

Please look at the Timeline, Nations fight against Christ is not indicated during the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week, but is plainly pointing at the line which indicates the Time of the Rapture. When Jesus shows up in the New City Jerusalem, this is when the nations come against Him, this is the time they will attack. It is not possible to attack Jesus before He gets here. Therefore Jesus must arrive here, before He is attacked. Therefore Jesus arrives, which starts the last part of the 3 1/2 year of the Tribulation Period (7 vials) So then at the start of the latter 3 1/2 years is when they will attack Him.

That's what men's doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture has taught you. But it's not the true order per God's Word.

Can we try to set something straight right now. For some reason you have lumped me in with the pre-trib believers which i am adamantly not a part of, Don't believe it, adamantly teach against that false doctrine. But for some reason you seem to think that is what i teach and/or believe. You do error. Even my Timeline Proves i am not pre-trib.

Pre-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church BEFORE the 7 year Tribulation Period begins.
Mid-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church in the Middle of the 7 year Tribulation Period begins.
Post-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church AFTER the 7 year Tribulation Period begins.

Now it is apparent you are a post-trib believer. And it is also apparent you think i am a pre-trib believer. You are wrong.

God told me one time this "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is WRONG"

There are verses which contradict the pre-trib theory.
There are verses which contradict the Post-trib theory
There are absolutely no verses whatsoever which is contrary to a Mid-trib theory.

Here is a TRUTH: We will go through some of the Tribulation Period but not all of it. That is the TRUTH.
The timeline that i have presented in this thread CLEARLY and PLAINLY indicates a MID-TRIB belief. So if you would be so kind, please stop accusing me of being in the pre-trib camp, it is lying if you continue to do so. Thanks.

On the 6th Vial, in Rev.16:15, the reason our Lord Jesus gave a warning to His Church there that He comes "as a thief", is because His coming is not until the 7th Vial, which is when the "day of the Lord" event is, which is also when the battle of Armageddon happens.

And using the same false logic, Can't a person claim that Jesus comes back at the 6th vial and not the 7th. Is a warning to the church is in the 7th vial. NOPE. therefore according to the same logic used. HE does NOT come in the 7th vial because the church is not given a warning in the 7th vial. The Church is warned in the 6th vial as a thief, Therefore since the warning is specifically on the 6th vial, it is the 6th vial that he comes as a thief in the night. Now you say He comes on the 7th vial, are you in TRUTH assuming He is coming on the 7th vial solely because of the warning HE gave in the 6th vial. Of course to believe he comes on the 6th or even the 7th vial, we have to make void other verses in the Word of God. So we need to interpret those verses away, or make them void, let us take those verses which says He comes at another time, and take them to the Hebrew and Greek, so we can better understand those verses and not have to believe what they actually say. Yes Jesus comes on the 6th or 7th vial, NOWHERE else in all of Scriptures does it remotely teach that, but hey that verse is enough, we have interpreted that verse to mean what we want it to mean, right. Pathetic generation.

to Public:

Believe the Scriptures NOT what men teach. Scriptures teach at the last Trumpet Sounding Christ will come. Scriptures teach at the 7th Trumpet the Temple in Heaven is opened. Scriptures teach when the Temple is opened in Heaven, the last 7 plagues are poured out on the Earth. Anyone who teaches different than what Scriptures plainly teach, they are teaching false doctrines of men, based solely on their own interpretations or the interpretations of other people. Interpretations belong to God NOT TO MEN. Anyone who teaches contrary to what the Word of God PLAINLY teaches, will not escape the wrath of God that will come upon this wicked and perverted (PORN viewing) generation. Tell me, does what i teach sound like the words of a devil? Do you think the conversations i have had with God was a demon, telling me things like LOVE ONE ANOTHER, STOP obeying my enemy the devil, Yeah words of a demon there huh. i teach more than anything to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and to Go and Sin no more. Are they too words of a demon? Have i been listening to devils my whole life? i testify to you, that what i teach is what God told me, It is not His Fault that you do not believe God speaks to people, but i have not failed to tell any of you the Truth, which was given to me by God, He told me "It is not your place to convince anyone of the TRUTH, only to present it to them"
Is it not written to try the spirits. TRY me. Find anything that i have said on any thread that is contrary to any verse in the Word of God, then i will be false, fake, not True, a liar, a deceiver. But if you can't find one thing i have said and taught in any of these threads where i have posted, that is contrary to the Word of God, then would it not behoove you listen and believe. NO, Not this generation, they stop their ears from hearing the moment i say something that they do not agree with, they stop their ears from hearing the moment i say something that is contrary to what THEY think is the Truth.
Some times i get the evil thought in my head "What's the point, with this generation" Then i remember one of our conversations, when i said to Him, they will not believe me, this is not what most Christians believe. He said "It is not your place to convince them of the TRUTH" then i said to Him, then why tell them at all, if you already know they will not hear it? He then told me, "They will have no cloak for their sins" i did not understand that statement of His until later when i was pondering upon it, then i remembered that sounded like Scriptures, then i read the Scriptures, then i understood. i tell you what He has told me, not to try to convince you that it is TRUE, but to present the TRUTH to you. So that when you do stand before God on Judgment Day you will not be able to plead ignorance "Lord, I did not know" Because His servant DiscipleDave has told you the Truth, told you who it was from, and you still did not believe it.
So then you have a choice believe what i say or don't believe what i say, but know this it is not me that you believe or not believe, but it is God that you do not believe or you do believe.

^i^

 

[GaryA]

Pre-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church BEFORE the 7 year Tribulation Period begins.
Mid-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church in the Middle of the 7 year Tribulation Period begins.
Post-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church AFTER the 7 year Tribulation Period begins.

I am guessing you really meant to say:

Pre-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church BEFORE the 7 year Tribulation Period begins.
Mid-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church in the Middle of the 7 year Tribulation Period.
Post-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church AFTER the 7 year Tribulation Period ends.

What you should have said:

Pre-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church BEFORE the Tribulation Period begins.
Mid-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church in the Middle of the Tribulation Period.
Post-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church AFTER the Tribulation Period ends.

I don't believe there will be any 7-year Tribulation Period...

( Just messin' wit' ya' Dave. )

 

[GaryA]

Thanks!

Another question...

Seeing that the 'Two Witnesses' share the same time frame as 'Trumpets Blown' in your diagram, would you say that what is said in Revelation 11:6 is describing [ some of ] the Trumpet events?

**** BUMP ****

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

The teaching that He gathers His Church at the 7th Vial contradicts other inspired by God verses in Scriptures, therefore can't possibly be correct. God told me "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is WRONG" Scriptures plainly teach the Rapture happens at the last Trumpet sounding, which is the 7th Trumpet of Revelations.

No it doesn't. It contradicts the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men. Big difference. The 7th trumpet and 7th vial timing are together. It's because of men's doctrines that they can't understand our Lord Jesus only gave 7 signs in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, which are about the Seals of Rev.6. Rev.6 is even showing our Lord Jesus' coming in the 6th Seal. The very last sign of the end Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 is that of His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church. That ends all reign by the wicked one and his host on earth.

i highly doubt you will answer these questions, because if you do answer them, it should reveal to you that what you believe is not Scriptural.

According to Scriptures which event describes that the Temple in Heaven is Opened?
According to Scriptures What comes out of the Temple which was opened in Heaven?
According to Scriptures When the Temple was opened in Heaven, and the 7 Angels came out of the Temple what were they holding?

Now if you answer those questions you will plainly see, that it is NOT POSSIBLE for the 7th trumpet, and the 7th vial to be the same event. Of coarse if you don't believe Scriptures then you can certainly make them the same event.

Are you a hypocrite? i hope not. You adamantly hold that it is the 7th vial when Christ comes back. You adamantly believe that because of verse 15 which gives a warning to the Church, so because of that warning you believe the Church is still present during the 6th vial. So you adamantly believe what you do because and solely because of that warning in verse 15 right?

Well there is a verse that clearly teaches the Temple is opened in Heaven at the 7th Trumpet sounding. There is a verse that Plainly teaches when that Temple is opened 7 Angels come out of that Temple holding the 7 last vials. So how is it you adamantly believe one verse but so easily discard all verses which contradict what you believe to be True, based off of an interpretation of verse 15? You deny Scriptures to hold on to an interpretation. and it is an interpretation Surely you realize that right. Verse 15 is merely a warning to the Church. It is your interpretation that MEANS, the Church is still present, it is your interpretation that Christ comes back at the 7th vial, and that interpretation is based on the interpretation of verse 15 where Jesus gives a warning to the Church. But Scriptures is not an interpretation. Scriptures teach at the 7th Trumpet the Temple is opened, then comes out of the Temple 7 angels with the 7 last vials. Will you argue against the Word of God? You would have been better off to read that, and say, "Oh my, what i believe can't be True"
Scriptures proves without a shadow of a doubt that when the 7th Trumpet is blown, it is at that time the Temple is opened and the the 7 vials begin to be poured out. How will you escape that Truth in order to hold on to your own doctrine?

DiscipleDave said

Revelations 16:15 is not a warning to the Church DURING the time of the 6th vial. It is merely a warning to the Church for those who will be reading Revelations prior to His coming. Jesus comes as a thief in the night, and Scriptures plainly teaches it is at the last Trumpet sounding, it does NOT teach it is at the 6th vial or at the last vial being poured out. Verse 15 was included for OUR sakes, those who would be reading it NOW. That warning could have been written in any one of the 7 vials being poured out. my point is just because it was written in the 6th vial does not mean that is when Christ would return, it was written merely as a warning to the Church, those who would be reading Revelations in the future. Scriptures does not teach Christ is going to get the Church at the last Trumpet sounding AND also going to get the Church at the 6th or 7th vial. Scriptures plainly teach He is going to get His Church at the last Trumpet sounding, therefore the interpretation that He is going to get the Church at the 6th or 7th vial because of what verse 15 says, Can't possibly be TRUE. Therefore verse 15 is merely a warning to the CHURCH, those who would be reading Revelations prior His Return.

Did I ever say our Lord Jesus comes on the 6th Vial? No, so you're making stuff up that I didn't say, no doubt doing that to try and discredit.

Please reread what i have said above and show me where i have accused YOU of saying or teaching that our Lord Jesus comes on the 6th vial. Just make where i accused YOU of saying that in bold, underline it if you want to so i do not miss where i have done what you are accusing me of doing. i have reread what i have said above, and i can't see anywhere at all where i have accused you of teaching the Lord Jesus comes on the 6th vial, so help me out and show where i have done this, or is it you trying to make stuff up to discredit? Now i did say several times that the Lord Jesus does not come on the 6th or 7th vial, but i NEVER not once said that is what you said, i said that because there is also a belief that He does come on the 6th vial. Please try to understand what i teach is not to one person only, but to all. Its kind of like in a huge classroom, you ask a question, to which i turn and face the whole classroom and talk to everyone, not specifically to the person who asked the question or wrote the post in this case. i merely said He does not come on the 6th or 7th vial, directed to those who believe He comes on the 6th vial, and also to those who believe He comes on the 7th vial. But i NEVER not one time did as you are now accusing me, i have never said that you said He comes on the 6th vial, that would be a lie, like you have done accusing me of doing that.

Jesus comes on the 7th Vial, 7th Trumpet, 6th Seal. All those events are linked together in God's Word, and they aren't that difficult to read and understand.

They are not that difficult to read and understand, the problem is you are not reading them, nor understanding them. Consider:

I can prove to you over and over again how there is not only 7 events like you teach. of coarse you have to believe the Word of God in order to see the TRUTH of that.

For example let us look at the islands and mountains.

6th seal description says :

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

7th vial description says :

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

These are two entirely different events. in the 6th seal islands and mountains are merely moved. in the 7th vial they are gone. So these two can't possibly be the same event even though they are very similar in descriptions. But what do you teach? YOU teach they are the same event. So which is then, which one of the above verses is a lie. Both can't be True. Are the mountains moved or are they gone, CAN'T be both like you are trying to teach. Even these Scriptures is contrary to what YOU believe is the TRUTH, will Scriptures convince you of the TRUTH or will you even now continue to hold on to the doctrine that you hold on to?

Within... the 6th Vial timing, which is the Rev.16:15 verse, He is warning all of His Church that is still on earth, not just some "tribulation saints" only idea that the Pre-trib Rapture doctors have fabricated. Then His coming occurs on the 7th Vial with that battle of Armageddon. The 6th Vial timing is the prep period for gathering His enemies together on earth for that final battle He comes to fight. Do you think He didn't know Paul had already taught the Church that His coming will be "as a thief in the night"? Yes He no doubt knew, which is why He gave us that warning that He comes "as a thief" there in Rev.16:15 through His Apostle John. It's a wake up call for His Church to mark the actual time of His coming on the 7th Vial with the "day of the Lord" events Paul and Peter covered.

Oh only if this generation would believe the words that God told me "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is WRONG"

There could be 15 verses that back up a particular belief a person has, but there is one verse that is contrary to that persons belief. That person's belief is wrong even though 15 verses backs it up. a hundred verses could back it up, but if one verse is contrary to that belief, that belief is WRONG. satan is a genius people, better start realizing that FACT. He knows full well that all false doctrines have Scriptures that will back up that doctrine that is believed. It is written that he can appear as an angel of light. Which appears to be Good, HOLY, and the such. satan takes a few verses which are Truth and uses those few verses to start a false doctrine, even though there will ALWAYS be verses in Scriptures which PROVES which doctrines are false. For example, the false doctrine that Once You are Saved, you are Always Saved has verses which contradict that belief. All the verse which speak of a name being blotted out of the Book of Life, PROVES OSAS is not TRUTH. When a person gets Saved their name is written in the Book of Life, this is TRUTH. There are verses which teach a person name can be blotted out of the Book of Life, therefore a person was Saved, because their name was written in the Book of Life, but is now not longer Saved because their name has been removed from the Book of life. Please email me if you want to talk about that subject. my point is, if what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is WRONG. It is only when your belief does not contradict ANY verse in Scriptures that you are touching the TRUTH of God. The belief that the 6th seal and the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th vial are the same event, is WRONG. Why? not because it is contrary to what DiscipleDave thinks or believes, because it contradicts the Word of God, there are verses that do not line up with that belief. that belief is false. Do not do at this generation does, do not change Scriptures to fit your belief. Change your belief to fit Scriptures, when you do that, the Holy Ghost will be able to reveal even more TRUTHS to you. But as long as you are interpreting the Word of God, ADDING meaning and the such, you will never come to the TRUTH of God.

DiscipleDave said

And who made you an interpreter? Do you think you are so special that you can interpret the Word of God? If YOU interpret the Word of God, how is that not from YOU? From your own MIND? Your own Thoughts, your own intellect? Your own opinions, your own ideals? This generation does greatly error in adding their own intepretations to the Word of God, as if men could actually do that. Those who try to interpret the Word of God via their own selves opens the door for satan to enter into the process of that interpretation. INTERPRETATIONS belong to God NOT to men.

Only by listening to men's doctrine instead of asking our Lord directly for understanding while showing Him disciplined study in His Word can the believer get confused as to the order of events concerning His coming and gathering of His Church.

Are you saying that what you teach did NOT come from the minds of men? Are you saying that what you know to be the TRUTH is now from God? Funny you never said before that what you know is divine, but only say it now. But you are absolutely correct when you said

by listening to men's doctrine instead of asking our Lord directly for understanding while showing Him disciplined study in His Word can the believer get confused as to the order of events concerning His coming and gathering of His Church.

Which i know is what you have altogether have done. If the Lord hath granted you understanding you would not be teaching something that is contrary to Scriptures. God does not teach anything that is contrary to His own teaching. The Word teaches at the 7th Trumpet the Temple in Heaven is opened, and then 7 angels come out and start the 7 vials. You say and teach that the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial are one and the same event, which is contrary to what God says in His Word. You teach that the 6th seal and the 7th vial are the same event. Yet God in His Word teaches that at the 6th seal, all the islands and mountains are moved out of their places, and the 7 vial God teaches all the islands and mountains are GONE, which makes since because Rev 21 teaches there are no more seas (oceans) If there are no oceans there wouldn't be any islands would there be? My point is what you teach does not line up with what Scriptures teach, therefore what you teach can't possibly be from God, but from the minds of men.

He laid it out plainly in His Word.

He did, but you are not seeing it. 7th Trumpet opens Temple out comes 7 angels with the last 7 vials, i don't say that, the Word Plainly says that. 6th seal teaches islands and mountains are moved. 7th vial teaches islands and mountains are gone. You teach they are the same event. if so, then which is it? Are the islands and mountains moved, or are they Gone? which one is a lie?

But there are certain men crept into the Church that are there to deceive, which our Lord also warned us about that too in His Word.

Careful now, you are talking about someone you know VERY well.

Because you have chosen to default to men's doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture theory, confusion away from the times and the seasons in God's Word is what you get. Blame yourself, not me.

i am not confused, what i know is the TRUTH. Are you not the one who is confused? Can you explain how on the 7th Trumpet the Temple is opened and it is at the 7th Trumpet that the seven Angels come out of the Temple and start to pour out the vials on the Earth? Do you not teach they are the same event. How can you possibly explain this to fit your doctrine? You also say that the 6th seal and the 7th vial are the exact same event. How are you not confused in being able to explain why the 6th seal says mountains are moved but the 7th vial says they are gone. Seems to me i would be very confused how to explain them to be the same exact event like you claim they are. i am not confused, i KNOW what God has told me, and i KNOW what He told me is TRUE.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

I am guessing you really meant to say:

Pre-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church BEFORE the 7 year Tribulation Period begins.
Mid-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church in the Middle of the 7 year Tribulation Period.
Post-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church AFTER the 7 year Tribulation Period ends.

What you should have said:

Pre-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church BEFORE the Tribulation Period begins.
Mid-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church in the Middle of the Tribulation Period.
Post-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church AFTER the Tribulation Period ends.

I don't believe there will be any 7-year Tribulation Period...

( Just messin' wit' ya' Dave. )

Sorry, i will stick with what i said, because i have seen no Scriptures to prove it otherwise. Thanks though.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by GaryA

Thanks!

Another question...

Seeing that the 'Two Witnesses' share the same time frame as 'Trumpets Blown' in your diagram, would you say that what is said in Revelation 11:6 is describing [ some of ] the Trumpet events?

**** BUMP ****

Sorry have no clue as to what ****BUMP **** means.


Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

You ask

Seeing that the 'Two Witnesses' share the same time frame as 'Trumpets Blown' in your diagram, would you say that what is said in Revelation 11:6 is describing [ some of ] the Trumpet events?

What Revelation 11:6 is describing what the Two Witness will do. Now can what they do be viewed as some of the Trumpet judgements? Sure there will be people who will believe they are exactly that. Can what they do be viewed as the work of the devil and they are evil? Sure there will be many people who will believe that, hence the reason most of the world will celebrate when they are dead. But as for the verse itself it merely describes what the two witnesses WILL DO. How it is seen will be up to those who are seeing it. Now if you are wanting to know if God has revealed to me if they are a description of the trumpet judgements, He has not revealed that to me, maybe He has to another, but not to me. Now if you are wanting to know what i think personally, my own opinion if they are a description of the trumpet judgments, i really never have thought about it, (hence the reason i never asked God when He was talking to me) so i guess my personal answer would be "i don't know"

^i^

 

[MsKy]

If Anyone can show me Scriptures which proves something in this picture is not correct, i would like to see it, please.
Please keep personal opinions, personal interpretations, personal thoughts, personal beliefs, out of it. Please just show me Scriptures which proves something in the picture below is not accurate.

View attachment 141823

How could anyone keep their personal beliefs about interpreting scripture out of a reply, isn’t interpreting scripture and applying it to our lives what we are supposed to do as believers? Your request seems unattainable.

The argument of who is correct in the question of the millennial will go on long past your post and there are a whole lot of theologians with fancy letters behind their names in every corner. It doesn’t matter to me if you believe in dispensational premillennialism, historic premillennialism, postmillennialism or amillennialism.

Who Cares? Seriously. Are to be in in heaven with your chart shouting, “I told you”? I doubt it.

There are some basic points to Christianity and the rest…. Who knows why God gave us this information? Maybe He wanted to laugh at our feeble attempts to explain a Holy God with our limited brains?

I’m not trying to be rude. I appreciate your passion for orthodox theology but dude…. You posted a chart and made a challenge to be kicked off your theological throne; it’s kind of funny.

 

[PlainWord]

Antiochus IV (165 B.C.) was only a type for the final Antichrist at the end. The placing of the "abomination of desolation" in Dan.11 was foretold of by our Lord Jesus in Matt.24 approximately 200 years AFTER... Antiochus had already been dead! So the Antiochus thingy doesn't work.

Sorry, I got behind.

I am not saying the Abomination of Desolation was placed by Antiochus, not at all. The A of D had to come after Christ. I also don't believe there was any A of D set up by Titus. Titus destroyed the Temple, he didn't place anything there. Further, we are not told that the A of D is set up in "the Temple" but rather, a holy place.

To understand what the A of D is or will be, we must first understand who the desolate are. Paul teaches that there are two covenants. These covenants were given to Abraham, one concerning Isaac, one concerning Ishmael. A study of the below, broke this whole thing wide open for me. Paul tells us who the desolate are in Gal 4:

Two Covenants

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, [SUP]24 [/SUP]which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— [SUP]25 [/SUP]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— [SUP]26 [/SUP]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written:“ Rejoice, O barren,You who do not bear! Break forth and shout ,
You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.” [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

A study of Galatians 4 reveals that in today's context, the Desolate are Muslims. If anyone doubts me that the Desolate are Muslims, let me know and I can walk you through a study of the above. Notice how Paul compares and contrasts Jews and Muslims in the above passage. Some of the same terms Paul uses are the same Jesus uses and the same John uses in Revelation. Who are the pregnant, who has the children?

"Rejoice and shout, you who are not in labor!!" See that? The Barren are the Jews. Conversely then, who are the "pregnant?" Who does Jesus warn in Mat 24?

[SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Jesus warns the "pregnant" which are the Muslims living in Judea. Woe to the Muslims (especially) but all in Judea are to flee.

Now look at this passage from Rev 18 concerning the Harlot.

‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

Oh, but she is a widow. She has no husband. She has many children but no husband therefore also, she is a harlot. According to Paul, we have a husband and we are the Bride and John agrees in Rev 19:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’”

A study of Mat 13, Wheat and Tares, also reveals that Jesus is discussing Jews and Muslims who look alike and grow up beside each other. They look alike because they have the same father (Abraham). Many, many Christians misinterpret the Wheat and Tares into true Christians and apostolic Christians but this idea is false. There were no churches or Christians when Jesus gave this lesson. Anyway, I digress.

Therefore the Abomination is of the Desolate or is of the Muslims.

Therefore we can discount any notion that a Roman or Greek places or placed the A of D in the context of Jesus' comments in Mat 24. Thus, look for an A of D placed by Muslims. Has this happened yet???

 

[PlainWord]

As for Dan 11, and as Gary points out, there are multiple "he(s)" doing things. Which "he" does what? Let's go back to the beginning of the Chapter:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And now I will tell you the truth: Behold, three more kings will arise in Persia, and the fourth shall be far richer than them all; by his strength, through his riches, he shall stir up all against the realm of Greece.

So, we see 4 Kings total (after Darius) from Persia (IRAN). The 4th is the richest. These are all in the past!!

Darius (under Cyrus) then:

1. Cambyses (530-522 BC)
2. Gaumata (522 BC)
3. Darius I (522-486 BC)
4. Xerxes (486-465 BC) who was the richest due to his severe taxation

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then a mighty king shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

The scene shifts to Greece and this King is of course Alexander the Great.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he has arisen, his kingdom shall be broken up and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not among his posterity nor according to his dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom shall be uprooted...

Alexander's Kingdom (as we know) was broken up in four but not for his posterity (not among his heirs).

even for others besides these.

The "others" where his four generals.

I believe from this point in Dan 11 through verse 28 refers to the past. Verse 28 is talking about Antiochus. Notice how verse 29 starts>

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter.

"At the Appointed time..." What do we know about the "Appointed Time?"

Dan 10: The message was true, but the appointed time was long; and he understood the message, and had understanding of the vision.

The appointed time was long. I see a skip here.

Dan 11: 27: Both these kings’ hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time.

The End will still be at the Appointed Time.

Dan 11:35: And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

They will fall (to be purified) until the time of the end, which is the Appointed Time. So, when we start seeing "appointed time" and "end" being discussed, then we know it's future. Clearly, the below is at the END.

Dan 11:40: “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.

Therefore, I believe verses 29-45 deal with the End Times. I too am still studying. One thing is for sure, these Kings of North and South are to the North and South of Israel. All of the countries around Israel are predominately Muslim. So, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the so-called AntiChrist or Man of Sin, will be Muslim. The people he deceives will also be Muslim and their false religion, their Harlot religion is ISLAM. So, we do not need to wait for some new religion to appear as it is already here.

 

[DP]

DiscipleDave



Can we try to set something straight right now. For some reason you have lumped me in with the pre-trib believers which i am adamantly not a part of, Don't believe it, adamantly teach against that false doctrine. But for some reason you seem to think that is what i teach and/or believe. You do error. Even my Timeline Proves i am not pre-trib.

Pre-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church BEFORE the 7 year Tribulation Period begins.
Mid-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church in the Middle of the 7 year Tribulation Period begins.
Post-trib believes Christ will come and get the Church AFTER the 7 year Tribulation Period begins.

Now it is apparent you are a post-trib believer. And it is also apparent you think i am a pre-trib believer. You are wrong.

God told me one time this "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is WRONG"

There are verses which contradict the pre-trib theory.
There are verses which contradict the Post-trib theory
There are absolutely no verses whatsoever which is contrary to a Mid-trib theory.

Here is a TRUTH: We will go through some of the Tribulation Period but not all of it. That is the TRUTH.
The timeline that i have presented in this thread CLEARLY and PLAINLY indicates a MID-TRIB belief. So if you would be so kind, please stop accusing me of being in the pre-trib camp, it is lying if you continue to do so. Thanks.



And using the same false logic, Can't a person claim that Jesus comes back at the 6th vial and not the 7th. Is a warning to the church is in the 7th vial. NOPE. therefore according to the same logic used. HE does NOT come in the 7th vial because the church is not given a warning in the 7th vial. The Church is warned in the 6th vial as a thief, Therefore since the warning is specifically on the 6th vial, it is the 6th vial that he comes as a thief in the night. Now you say He comes on the 7th vial, are you in TRUTH assuming He is coming on the 7th vial solely because of the warning HE gave in the 6th vial. Of course to believe he comes on the 6th or even the 7th vial, we have to make void other verses in the Word of God. So we need to interpret those verses away, or make them void, let us take those verses which says He comes at another time, and take them to the Hebrew and Greek, so we can better understand those verses and not have to believe what they actually say. Yes Jesus comes on the 6th or 7th vial, NOWHERE else in all of Scriptures does it remotely teach that, but hey that verse is enough, we have interpreted that verse to mean what we want it to mean, right. Pathetic generation.

to Public:

Believe the Scriptures NOT what men teach. Scriptures teach at the last Trumpet Sounding Christ will come. Scriptures teach at the 7th Trumpet the Temple in Heaven is opened. Scriptures teach when the Temple is opened in Heaven, the last 7 plagues are poured out on the Earth. Anyone who teaches different than what Scriptures plainly teach, they are teaching false doctrines of men, based solely on their own interpretations or the interpretations of other people. Interpretations belong to God NOT TO MEN. Anyone who teaches contrary to what the Word of God PLAINLY teaches, will not escape the wrath of God that will come upon this wicked and perverted (PORN viewing) generation. Tell me, does what i teach sound like the words of a devil? Do you think the conversations i have had with God was a demon, telling me things like LOVE ONE ANOTHER, STOP obeying my enemy the devil, Yeah words of a demon there huh. i teach more than anything to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and to Go and Sin no more. Are they too words of a demon? Have i been listening to devils my whole life? i testify to you, that what i teach is what God told me, It is not His Fault that you do not believe God speaks to people, but i have not failed to tell any of you the Truth, which was given to me by God, He told me "It is not your place to convince anyone of the TRUTH, only to present it to them"
Is it not written to try the spirits. TRY me. Find anything that i have said on any thread that is contrary to any verse in the Word of God, then i will be false, fake, not True, a liar, a deceiver. But if you can't find one thing i have said and taught in any of these threads where i have posted, that is contrary to the Word of God, then would it not behoove you listen and believe. NO, Not this generation, they stop their ears from hearing the moment i say something that they do not agree with, they stop their ears from hearing the moment i say something that is contrary to what THEY think is the Truth.
Some times i get the evil thought in my head "What's the point, with this generation" Then i remember one of our conversations, when i said to Him, they will not believe me, this is not what most Christians believe. He said "It is not your place to convince them of the TRUTH" then i said to Him, then why tell them at all, if you already know they will not hear it? He then told me, "They will have no cloak for their sins" i did not understand that statement of His until later when i was pondering upon it, then i remembered that sounded like Scriptures, then i read the Scriptures, then i understood. i tell you what He has told me, not to try to convince you that it is TRUE, but to present the TRUTH to you. So that when you do stand before God on Judgment Day you will not be able to plead ignorance "Lord, I did not know" Because His servant DiscipleDave has told you the Truth, told you who it was from, and you still did not believe it.
So then you have a choice believe what i say or don't believe what i say, but know this it is not me that you believe or not believe, but it is God that you do not believe or you do believe.

^i^

I could have sworn that I read you preaching a pre-trib rapture idea. I stand corrected if that is so, but a mid-trib rapture is really not that much different, because both of those doctrines are from men and not written in God's Word.

In 2 Thess.2 Paul was specific that TWO things MUST occur first prior to what? Prior to Christ's 2nd coming AND His gathering of the Church. Right there Paul sets the timing of our Lord Jesus' coming and gathering of the Church in concrete.

2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
KJV

That verse there by Paul also marks the order of Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church. What can't you understand that by our Lord Jesus destroying the revealed false one by the "brightness of His coming", that means the very END of that false one's reign, and thus the end of all the wicked's reign on earth?

There's no way to interpret a rapture on the 6th Vial by what our Lord Jesus said there. It's very easy to know that simply because of the subject of the very next 16-17 verses:

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

 

[DP]

Sorry, I got behind.

I am not saying the Abomination of Desolation was placed by Antiochus, not at all. The A of D had to come after Christ. I also don't believe there was any A of D set up by Titus. Titus destroyed the Temple, he didn't place anything there. Further, we are not told that the A of D is set up in "the Temple" but rather, a holy place.

The "holy place" Jesus referred to is about the temple in Jerusalem. See Greek of Acts 21:28 which is about the temple and compare with Matt.24:15. Whether the idol is placed just outside the temple for all to see, or placed in the holy of holies, no matter, it's still involving the temple. Since Antiochus IV is the blueprint, it's inside the temple, for inside the 2nd temple in 165 B.C. is where he placed an idol to Zeus in false worship.

To understand what the A of D is or will be, we must first understand who the desolate are....

No, we only need to understand what the Book of Daniel plainly showed it is, and our Lord Jesus in His Olivet Discourse when His disciples pointed Him to the Temple Mount complex and He warned them from the Book of Daniel about it. That means getting outside the Book of Daniel to try and explain what the "abomination of desolation" is won't work.

It specifically is an idol abomination that spiritually desolates the temple in Jerusalem. Antiochus is the blueprint, remember? Thus it is not about a destruction of the temple, nor a destruction of the land, etc., but a desecrating of the temple in Jerusalem with setting up idol worship.

 

[PlainWord]

The "holy place" Jesus referred to is about the temple in Jerusalem. See Greek of Acts 21:28 which is about the temple and compare with Matt.24:15. Whether the idol is placed just outside the temple for all to see, or placed in the holy of holies, no matter, it's still involving the temple. Since Antiochus IV is the blueprint, it's inside the temple, for inside the 2nd temple in 165 B.C. is where he placed an idol to Zeus in false worship.

Your rationale for the A of D to be inside the Temple is fine. However, there is no temple. There is also no prophesy of a third temple being built.

No, we only need to understand what the Book of Daniel plainly showed it is, and our Lord Jesus in His Olivet Discourse when His disciples pointed Him to the Temple Mount complex and He warned them from the Book of Daniel about it. That means getting outside the Book of Daniel to try and explain what the "abomination of desolation" is won't work.

That's a bold statement and its a false statement. John, in Revelation, uses many of the same symbols that Daniel used such as "beasts," "horns", "earth," "sea," "time, times and half a time," etc. Clearly they are discussing many of the same topics. As you point out, Jesus discussed Daniel's prophesy in the Olivet so also does John without naming him.

It specifically is an idol abomination that spiritually desolates the temple in Jerusalem.

An Idol Abomination cannot be Muslim in nature?

Thus it is not about a destruction of the temple

Agreed. In fact, didn't I say that?

I also don't believe there was any A of D set up by Titus. Titus destroyed the Temple, he didn't place anything there.

Appears I did.

Antiochus is the blueprint, remember?

He certainly was a "type."

desecrating of the temple in Jerusalem with setting up idol worship.

Again, the word, "TEMPLE" is not found in association with the A of D. Instead Jesus specifically does NOT use the word Temple. Jesus has uttered the word, "Temple" in the past so He clearly knows how to say the word, but doesn't in the Olivet, doesn't that bother you? This is what Jesus said specifically:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

"HOLY PLACE"
"WHERE IT OUGHT NOT"

Let me ask you, is the Temple the only place the Jews consider "holy" today? What about the Temple Mount or the Western Wall? Funny, Daniel doesn't use the word "Temple" either when he discusses the A of D. Daniel uses the word, "Temple" twice in Chapter 5 so clearly Daniel knows what the temple is or was. But Daniel never uses the word "temple" anywhere in Chapter 9, 11 or 12 where the "Abomination(s)" are discussed, just as Jesus never says "temple."

Now your version could be correct. A third temple could be built. All I am saying is to not have tunnel vision on this issue. There are other possibilities as well. We are both speculating.

 

[PlainWord]

I could have sworn that I read you preaching a pre-trib rapture idea. I stand corrected if that is so, but a mid-trib rapture is really not that much different, because both of those doctrines are from men and not written in God's Word.

So much misunderstanding of what the Tribulation is. The Great Tribulation is all about Israel.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Where is Judea? Where is the Sabbath observed? So, where does the Great Tribulation happen then? DP, you say the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the third temple in Jerusalem, so where is Jerusalem located?

What does Daniel say?

And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never wassince there was a nation, Even to that time.

What Nation do you suppose Daniel was discussing?

What does Jeremiah say in Chapter 30:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah. [SUP]5 [/SUP]“For thus says the Lord: ‘We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale?[SUP]7 [/SUP]Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble.


Who is the above concerning? Israel and Judah? Time of who's trouble? Jacob? Who or what is Jacob?

So you see, the GREAT TRIBULATION is all about ISRAEL and her people. There is no need for God to save the CHURCH out of it.

 

[DP]

So much misunderstanding of what the Tribulation is. The Great Tribulation is all about Israel.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Where is Judea? Where is the Sabbath observed? So, where does the Great Tribulation happen then? DP, you say the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the third temple in Jerusalem, so where is Jerusalem located?

You forgot this version of that Scripture...

Luke 21:21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
KJV


Do you think our Lord Jesus was speaking that just to Israelites in those far off countries, telling them not to go to Jerusalem/Judea in that time? He was speaking that to His Church, all of His Church that will still be alive on earth at that timing, even in far off countries.

Who were believing scattered Israelites among during Apostle Paul's time that Paul was preaching The Gospel to? Among the Gentiles in Gentile nations, i.e., where Paul was chosen to take The Gospel to especially. Trying to separate believing Israel in that is like trying to separate believing Israelites from believing Gentiles in Christ's Church as one Body. It doesn't work. Likewise, there are Israelites in Jerusalem today that are Christians, and will be so when that event occurs. Jesus spoke that for all His Church, even those outside the middle east, not just those of His in Judea at that future time.

What does Daniel say?

And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never wassince there was a nation, Even to that time.

What Nation do you suppose Daniel was discussing?

That's really 'reaching' man. The meaning is even before any... nation existed on earth. Israel wasn't the first nation on earth, by the way.

What does Jeremiah say in Chapter 30:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah. [SUP]5 [/SUP]“For thus says the Lord: ‘We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale?[SUP]7 [/SUP]Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble.


Who is the above concerning? Israel and Judah? Time of who's trouble? Jacob? Who or what is Jacob?

So you see, the GREAT TRIBULATION is all about ISRAEL and her people. There is no need for God to save the CHURCH out of it.

You're wrongly trying to treat only the geographical nation of Israel in the middle east as God's Israel per His Word. Many brethren wrongly do that, even with the label of Jews which only represents one part of total Israel.

Didn't you catch that Jer.30 Scripture revealing Israel and Judah as two separate groups? If you had heeded OT history per God's Word, you'd recognize how God separated them into two different houses long ago, and made them apart from each other, which is why the word "Judah" had to be mentioned in that "Israel and Judah" phrase separately.

Jer 30:3
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of My people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
KJV

That "Judah" represents the "house of Judah" after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms and peoples, and then scattered the ten tribed "house of Israel" apart from the "house of Judah". The "house of Judah", and thus "Judah" there, represents ONLY the Jews of the three tribes Judah, Benjamin, and Levi which became the "house of Judah".

But that "Israel" there only represents the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" after the 1 Kings 11-12 split. What happened to the "house of Israel" at 2 Kings 17? God removed them from the holy land, scattered them among the nations. They lost their known heritage as part of Israel also, but Judah (Jews) did not.

My point? The majority of the ten-tribed house of Israel is still scattered among the Gentile nations today, as it also will be when that Luke 21 event occurs in our near future. And I'm talking especially about western nations where The Gospel of Jesus Christ was sent to after the passion of Christ. Likewise, many of Judah are still scattered among the nations too.

 

[KennethC]

Your rationale for the A of D to be inside the Temple is fine. However, there is no temple. There is also no prophesy of a third temple being built.



That's a bold statement and its a false statement. John, in Revelation, uses many of the same symbols that Daniel used such as "beasts," "horns", "earth," "sea," "time, times and half a time," etc. Clearly they are discussing many of the same topics. As you point out, Jesus discussed Daniel's prophesy in the Olivet so also does John without naming him.

An Idol Abomination cannot be Muslim in nature?

Agreed. In fact, didn't I say that? Appears I did.

He certainly was a "type."

Again, the word, "TEMPLE" is not found in association with the A of D. Instead Jesus specifically does NOT use the word Temple. Jesus has uttered the word, "Temple" in the past so He clearly knows how to say the word, but doesn't in the Olivet, doesn't that bother you? This is what Jesus said specifically:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

"HOLY PLACE"
"WHERE IT OUGHT NOT"

Let me ask you, is the Temple the only place the Jews consider "holy" today? What about the Temple Mount or the Western Wall? Funny, Daniel doesn't use the word "Temple" either when he discusses the A of D. Daniel uses the word, "Temple" twice in Chapter 5 so clearly Daniel knows what the temple is or was. But Daniel never uses the word "temple" anywhere in Chapter 9, 11 or 12 where the "Abomination(s)" are discussed, just as Jesus never says "temple."

Now your version could be correct. A third temple could be built. All I am saying is to not have tunnel vision on this issue. There are other possibilities as well. We are both speculating.

Amos 9:11

"On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, and repair its damages: I will raise up its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old.

 

[DP]

Your rationale for the A of D to be inside the Temple is fine. However, there is no temple. There is also no prophesy of a third temple being built.

Your statement "there is no temple" is easy to say, since the 2nd temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. But your last statement you had to have your tongue to the side, because Revelation 11 reveals a standing temple during the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, and the AOD from the Book of Daniel, especially Dan.11, is about an idol being placed at or in a temple built by the Jews. Antiochus IV even served as the blueprint for that final future event of Dan.11.

That's a bold statement and its a false statement. John, in Revelation, uses many of the same symbols that Daniel used such as "beasts," "horns", "earth," "sea," "time, times and half a time," etc. Clearly they are discussing many of the same topics. As you point out, Jesus discussed Daniel's prophesy in the Olivet so also does John without naming him.

Declaring where... that AOD event is to occur per the Book of Daniel is not... a bold statement. This is why our Lord Jesus specifically referred to the Book of Daniel when He forewarned about it in His Olivet Discourse. You have no other... Biblical source for where it is to occur, which is why the Preterist doctrine you espouse has to try and change the meaning of that "abomination of desolation" to mean some other idea instead of an idol abomination that desolates the sanctuary as per the Book of Daniel.

An Idol Abomination cannot be Muslim in nature?

Agreed. In fact, didn't I say that? Appears I did.

It could be an idol image of any false god, which the point of which kind isn't really the matter. Not bowing in false worship to it is the matter. Yet we have the pattern of what the king of Babylon did with setting up a golden idol image of himself, and demanded all to bow in worship to it at the sound of the Psalter or be killed. That's the pattern we're shown in Rev.13:11 forward also. And didn't Paul warn in 2 Thess.2:4 about a false one coming to exalt himself in the temple as God? Thus, God's Word didn't leave us completely guessing who that idol image will most likely be of.

He certainly was a "type."

Antiochus Epiphanes wasn't just a type, but the... type for the coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem to cause the AOD to be placed there.

Again, the word, "TEMPLE" is not found in association with the A of D.

What our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24:15 referencing Daniel depends on already knowing what's written in the Book of Daniel about the AOD:

Dan 8:13-14
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV


That's a first hint in the Book of Daniel of the placing of the AOD of Daniel 11:31. The idea of that transgression causing the "sanctuary" to need cleansing automatically reveals something to cause that sanctuary (i.e., temple) to become spiritually desolated involving false worship. We know it's involving false worship, and not a literal destruction of a building, because those sacrifices were part of the old covenant worship, thus showing something put in place instead of those sacrifices.

Dan 11:30-32
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
KJV


Because that mentions "the holy covenant", that has to mean the old covenant. And of course what was required by the old covenant worship? Animal sacrifices, either with the tabernacle or temple sanctuary. Do you not see that word "sanctuary" there? Let's see, those two ideas linked together, an abomination that makes desolate, and a sanctuary. Not hard to figure out at all.

Instead Jesus specifically does NOT use the word Temple. Jesus has uttered the word, "Temple" in the past so He clearly knows how to say the word, but doesn't in the Olivet, doesn't that bother you?

Doesn't it bother me that our Lord Jesus didn't use the word 'temple' when he quoted from Daniel about the placing of the "abomination of desolation"? No, not at all. And I showed why in my explanation above from the Book of Daniel. Your argument is simply ad hoc, and not Scriptural at all.

This is what Jesus said specifically:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

"HOLY PLACE"
"WHERE IT OUGHT NOT"

Let me ask you, is the Temple the only place the Jews consider "holy" today? What about the Temple Mount or the Western Wall? Funny, Daniel doesn't use the word "Temple" either when he discusses the A of D. Daniel uses the word, "Temple" twice in Chapter 5 so clearly Daniel knows what the temple is or was. But Daniel never uses the word "temple" anywhere in Chapter 9, 11 or 12 where the "Abomination(s)" are discussed, just as Jesus never says "temple."

Let's see. Christ's disciples upon the Mount of Olives with Him mention the great buildings on the Temple Mount complex. The Mount of Olives happens to be located on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount area in Jerusalem. In that time, where... was "the holy place"??? In the 2nd temple that was standing there, which they could see from the Mount of Olives. How much common sense does it take to realize that prophecy for the end in Jerusalem requires a standing Jewish temple? Not really that much, and lo and behold, look at what is standing in Jerusalem per the Rev.11:1-2 prophecy, ANOTHER TEMPLE!

I did also mention the Acts 21:28 "holy place" also being about the temple in Jerusalem, as the Jews were complaining against Paul bringing Greeks into the temple:

Acts 21:28
28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
KJV

Now your version could be correct. A third temple could be built. All I am saying is to not have tunnel vision on this issue. There are other possibilities as well. We are both speculating.

But you do appear to have tunnel vision, even because you're making an unrealistic requirement for the word 'temple' to be specifically written before you will admit that's what the subject is where the abomination idol is placed.

 

[GaryA]

Your statement "there is no temple" is easy to say, since the 2nd temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. But your last statement you had to have your tongue to the side, because Revelation 11 reveals a standing temple during the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, and the AOD from the Book of Daniel, especially Dan.11, is about an idol being placed at or in a temple built by the Jews. Antiochus IV even served as the blueprint for that final future event of Dan.11.

Revelation 11:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. [SUP]2[/SUP] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


This has to be speaking of the current temple ( at the time John received and wrote the Revelation ), not a future one. It speaks of a "God-sanctioned" temple; since the resurrection of Christ, there can-not-be and will-not-be any more such built-by-the-hands-of-men temples!

What our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24:15 referencing Daniel depends on already knowing what's written in the Book of Daniel about the AOD:

Dan 8:13-14
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV


That's a first hint in the Book of Daniel of the placing of the AOD of Daniel 11:31. The idea of that transgression causing the "sanctuary" to need cleansing automatically reveals something to cause that sanctuary (i.e., temple) to become spiritually desolated involving false worship. We know it's involving false worship, and not a literal destruction of a building, because those sacrifices were part of the old covenant worship, thus showing something put in place instead of those sacrifices.

So -- you believe that there will be another [ future, third ] "God-sanctioned" temple -- which will be 'desecrated' and then "trodden under foot" for [ either 42 months or 2300 days ] - and then "cleansed" after that?

Then what? Will the Jews offer animal sacrifices in it?

Dan 11:30-32
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
KJV


Because that mentions "the holy covenant", that has to mean the old covenant. And of course what was required by the old covenant worship? Animal sacrifices, either with the tabernacle or temple sanctuary. Do you not see that word "sanctuary" there? Let's see, those two ideas linked together, an abomination that makes desolate, and a sanctuary. Not hard to figure out at all.

This is past history -- circa 70 A.D.

Remember, this happens [ "some time" / well ] before 'the time of the end' of Daniel 11:35 - which is 'yet for a time appointed'.

Let's see. Christ's disciples upon the Mount of Olives with Him mention the great buildings on the Temple Mount complex. The Mount of Olives happens to be located on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount area in Jerusalem. In that time, where... was "the holy place"??? In the 2nd temple that was standing there, which they could see from the Mount of Olives. How much common sense does it take to realize that prophecy for the end in Jerusalem requires a standing Jewish temple? Not really that much, and lo and behold, look at what is standing in Jerusalem per the Rev.11:1-2 prophecy, ANOTHER TEMPLE!

Not another [ third ] temple, but the [ second ] temple that was standing when John received and wrote the Revelation.

Prophecy for the "end in Jerusalem" does not require a standing Jewish temple; the "end in Jerusalem" is called by the name of 'Armageddon'...

 

[KennethC]

Revelation 11:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. [SUP]2[/SUP] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


This has to be speaking of the current temple ( at the time John received and wrote the Revelation ), not a future one. It speaks of a "God-sanctioned" temple; since the resurrection of Christ, there can-not-be and will-not-be any more such built-by-the-hands-of-men temples!



So -- you believe that there will be another [ future, third ] "God-sanctioned" temple -- which will be 'desecrated' and then "trodden under foot" for [ either 42 months or 2300 days ] - and then "cleansed" after that?

Then what? Will the Jews offer animal sacrifices in it?



This is past history -- circa 70 A.D.

Remember, this happens [ "some time" / well ] before 'the time of the end' of Daniel 11:35 - which is 'yet for a time appointed'.



Not another [ third ] temple, but the [ second ] temple that was standing when John received and wrote the Revelation.

Prophecy for the "end in Jerusalem" does not require a standing Jewish temple; the "end in Jerusalem" is called by the name of 'Armageddon'...

Revelation is a prophetic book for the end times, it does not apply to John's day.

Also how do you then take the prophecy from Amos 9:11 that states clearly the temple will be rebuilt ???

 

[GaryA]

Revelation is a prophetic book for the end times, it does not apply to John's day.

Also how do you then take the prophecy from Amos 9:11 that states clearly the temple will be rebuilt ???

Well - first of all, I do not believe that Amos 9:11 "states clearly" what you are suggesting...


In a way, Revelation does apply to John's day. It applies to the entirety of the past ~2000 years...

Each of the first four 'seals' - one seal at a time - has been "opened" over the past ~2000 years.


The Bible refers to [ the time of the first century, when there were apostles still alive on the earth ] as the 'last days'...

Now - I will agree that there is such a thing as "the end" ( "the very end" ) which is still future; however, in prophetic terms, we are in the 'last days' now - and have been for ~2000 years. This must be remembered when considering what the Bible says about "end times"; sometimes it is referring to "the very end" - and sometimes [ in the more broad sense of "the end" - i.e., ] the 'last days'.


You also have to be careful so as not to assume that everything mentioned in a particular passage is "all happening at the same time"...


Acts 2:

[SUP]17[/SUP] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [SUP]18[/SUP] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: [SUP]19[/SUP] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [SUP]20[/SUP] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


Verses 17 and 18 are referring to past events; verses 19 and 20 are referring to future events -- all during "the last days"...

The Bible describes things "in God's time frame" -- prophecy must be interpreted within that time frame.


How much of the book of Amos is talking about "the very end"...?


This is referring to "the very end":


Amos 8:

[SUP]9[/SUP] And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day: [SUP]10[/SUP] And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.


This is not:


Amos 8:

[SUP]11[/SUP] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: [SUP]12[/SUP] And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. [SUP]13[/SUP] In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.


What is this talking about? The "four hundred years of silence", perhaps?

 

[KennethC]

Well - first of all, I do not believe that Amos 9:11 "states clearly" what you are suggesting...


In a way, Revelation does apply to John's day. It applies to the entirety of the past ~2000 years...

Each of the first four 'seals' - one seal at a time - has been "opened" over the past ~2000 years.


The Bible refers to [ the time of the first century, when there were apostles still alive on the earth ] as the 'last days'...

Now - I will agree that there is such a thing as "the end" ( "the very end" ) which is still future; however, in prophetic terms, we are in the 'last days' now - and have been for ~2000 years. This must be remembered when considering what the Bible says about "end times"; sometimes it is referring to "the very end" - and sometimes [ in the more broad sense of "the end" - i.e., ] the 'last days'.


You also have to be careful so as not to assume that everything mentioned in a particular passage is "all happening at the same time"...


Acts 2:

[SUP]17[/SUP] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [SUP]18[/SUP] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: [SUP]19[/SUP] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [SUP]20[/SUP] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


Verses 17 and 18 are referring to past events; verses 19 and 20 are referring to future events -- all during "the last days"...

The Bible describes things "in God's time frame" -- prophecy must be interpreted within that time frame.


How much of the book of Amos is talking about "the very end"...?


This is referring to "the very end":


Amos 8:

[SUP]9[/SUP] And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day: [SUP]10[/SUP] And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.


This is not:


Amos 8:

[SUP]11[/SUP] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: [SUP]12[/SUP] And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. [SUP]13[/SUP] In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.


What is this talking about? The "four hundred years of silence", perhaps?

Yes I do understand that we have been in the last days since John !!!

However Revelation was given to John when he was exiled on the island of Patmos, and was told these were things to come in the future, not things that existed during his time !!!

Also what makes you think apostles still don't exist ???

If you are going by the definition that they had to personally see and walk with Christ, that is false because the Word of God names a number of other people who became apostles under Paul, Peter, and John years later after Jesus had already ascended.

Apostle Paul himself did not walk with Christ, he was named an apostle years later !!!