GOD IS FOR YOU, NOT AGAINST YOU

ladylynn · Jan 31, 2016

I'm sorry., It takes me a loooong time to finish a post while here at work. So when you and crossnote posted I had been working on that last one so the "my buddies" comment was about Grace777 and JGIG who don't listen to JP as much as me.

It takes some time to hear someone out forthAngel. I'm afraid you didn't hear Prince out because I get very concrete and solid teaching from him. Current and meaty stuff. He never dances around the Gospel. He reads Scripture all the time. No empty words at all as far as I'm concerned. I've been listening to him for about 3yrs now and find him so interesting I listen to cds in my car from him. He is the first preacher that I heard preach a grace message.

1 Cor.5:12 is talking about the church leaving judgement of unbelievers to God and concentrate on setting it's own house in order. If your in a church situation where you can do this because you know one another. 6:1 we don't take our brothers to the unsaved to be judged. The saints with judge the world because of our union with Christ, we will be associated with Him in this judgment during the millennium (Matt.19:28) we will also judge angels (v.3) 2Peter 2:4,9 Jude 6. Bible commentary Ryrie

About repentance? it has been posted many times especially on Ben's thread about 1John 1:9 Obsession with confession. Prince is not the only grace preacher that discusses repentance. Also about how the Holy Spirit does not convict the believer of sin as crossnote asked for a clarification. I will post in another post here.

ForthAngel · Jan 31, 2016

ladylynn said:

No problem. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I do understand that it takes some times to hear someone out. I think I have heard enough to make a sound judgment however. I've been listening to him a lot recently as well because of all the hyper stuff being brought up on the boards to see if his theology has changed at all since I was listening before. Still a lot of WoF teaching mixed in with his messages. He is very subtle about it, but it's there.

I will admit that he makes some good points and is not exactly wrong about everything. But I think he has taken the Gospel out of his message entirely. Grace itself seems to be the object of faith in his gospel and not Christ. This is what I get out of listening to his version of the Gospel. In any given sermon, you may here Jesus a few times, but the rest of the time it's faith in the gospel of grace, faith in grace, belief in grace. Don't worry about those sins and trust in grace. Everyone here who likes him and others who teach the gospel of grace will deny that this teaching gives a license to sin, but while listening to his sermons it's difficult for me to come to that same conclusion.

He condemns everyone who preaches obedience to Christ as pharisees and lawkeepers. But Christ himself said if we love him, we will obey his commands. He teaches a form of anti-law. Complete lawlessness, even by the new covenant standard of obeying Christ. We are free in Christ, but not lawless. I am not talking about justification by old covenant law, which is the general accusation against those of us against the gospel of grace he preaches. I simply mean obedience to Christ. He preaches against the denial of self but to indulge self and to expect money, expect health, expect miracles. The most convincing lie is one that is mostly truth. But we know a little leaven leavens the whole lump. I know that, in context, that is speaking of lawkeepers, but I think it works just as well on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Fair enough. I agree with this. I think this can be expanded to beyond local church bodies however. Christian chat for example is a community of Christians. A virtual meeting place for the body. Should we not be as on guard (getting the house in order so to speak) here and judging those in our midst who would pervert the grace of God and turned it into sensuality, or an idol all on its own? Should we let the sheep fall prey to wolves simply because this is not a local body of believers?

Repentance is a key part of the true Gospel of Christ crucified. It can't be removed from the Gospel and still be able to be called the Gospel. Like I said in the previous post, it's like Prince believes his entire audience is already saved, so the full Gospel is never even preached. So we end up with a repentless gospel promising fleshly gain.

ladylynn · Jan 31, 2016

crossnote said:

Teachers in the Body of Christ is good. But every specialized movement have their 'certain' teachers and apparently this so called Hyper Grace movement is no different.

OK, since you and I have posted on these forums together for a while I can say based on your posts, you are most probably and for sure a real Christian man. And even though I find your posting style sometimes a bit sarcastic and even mean..., and even though you don't agree with me on all issues in the Bible,.... I would give you enough credit (and grace) that it would not be an assumption on my part to believe you would not ignorantly follow any Tom, Dick or Harry preacher and I would treat you with the respect due another believer in Christ.

What makes it cult-like, is not so much the teachers but their starry eyed followers who can speak of no others, nor can they speak of other topics.

Yet.... you in a usual sarcastic fashion elude to those who like to listen to J.Prince (me) as being starry eyed followers who can speak of no others nor can they speak of other topics.

After over 40 years a Christian, the pattern is all too familiar. I'll let the conviction fall where it may.[/QUOT

And after your 40 years as a Christian (even in light of my 34 years as a Christian) the pattern is all to familiar and you will let the conviction fall where it may....

Crossnote., what about my 34yrs and my evidence here as having a position as a sister in Christ? Does that count for something that might cause you to not throw me into the camp of the starry eyed followers of some current "specialized movement" ? (Just a question)

sharkwhales · Jan 31, 2016

Didn't read the whole thread to see how it got on the topic of Prince, so I will just say a little bit.

Preachers are usually not 100% correct on their doctrine because they're all still learning and their positions change as they learn.

Even if Prince holds to one wrong position, but on the other hand teaches many truthful things, those truths all belong to God and can be used by God. It is unfair to condemn a whole ministry because of a few errors, if they are not the main focus of the ministry.

Grace is not an error, it is necessary these days because there are many spiritually wounded people who need grace to focus on relationship with God. Law is impossible without relationship being a higher priority, because all the laws are to protect and value relationship (especially w/ God). Grace just gets out of balance when it becomes about the self and not about reuniting with God. So I guess what matters IMO is whether the ministry's grace focus is bringing people closer to God.

Grace777x70 · Jan 31, 2016

The Lord has sent us gifts to the body of Christ so that we would grow up in Him. Teachers are one of them. Some teachers are anointed to teach on certain areas of truth. If we reject teachers teaching us we are cutting ourselves off from what the Lord has for us.

The Holy Spirit uses teachers to help with us to learn the things of Jesus. He is the One inside us that witnesses to the truth. The very question as to why we need teachers is basic unless we know everything now. So, unless people have arrived as outlined in verse 13 below - we will always need teachers.

Ephesians 4:11-13 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Acts 13:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

crossnote said:

Grace777x70 · Jan 31, 2016

Here is your answer....

[video=youtube;cM-821HWRDo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM-821HWRDo[/video]

crossnote said:

Grace777x70 · Jan 31, 2016

Here is another one from a different person ..

[video=youtube;VqWC5v7LlZM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqWC5v7LlZM[/video]

crossnote said:

Grace777x70 · Jan 31, 2016

Here is a complete version as the first one was just 6 minutes..

[video=youtube;wrLW8t3vOVo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrLW8t3vOVo[/video]

crossnote said:

Grace777x70 · Jan 31, 2016

That is just a ridiculous false accusation and is driven by something else......*shakes head*

crossnote said:

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jan 31, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Neither Prince nor this person know what they're talking about. Both false teachers.

Jesus convicts (proves wrong) both the world and believers of sin. Reprove and rebuke in the verses below are the same word.

Reprove/Rebuke
G1651 ἐλέγχω elegcho (el-eng'-kho) v.
1. to confute, admonish

Jesus convicts the world of sin

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: John 16:8

Jesus convicts believers of their sin

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Revelation 3:19

Gr8grace · Jan 31, 2016

crossnote said:

I know of these men but have never listened to them.But the folks that have listened seem to have a pretty good grasp on salvation and grace IMO.

Gr8grace · Jan 31, 2016

sondra333 said:

That morsel of bread was Judas' last chance at grace.

The guest of honor received the first morsel and Jesus Christ was the guest of honor. Judas new this and knew he had a choice to make, he chose himself.

and once again we see Jesus Christ honoring our choice. The disciples were clueless that it was Judas who would betray him...................because Judas was the guest of honor, he got the first dipped morsel.

crossnote · Jan 31, 2016

crossnote said:

Grace777x70 said:

This didn't even address my question. I'm referring to Prince's claim that the Spirit never convicts the believer of sin, never points out your faults...seems like a feminized version of our faith.
Do you have that quote from his book in context?

Grace777x70 · Jan 31, 2016

Did you listen to the full message?..

crossnote said:

crossnote · Jan 31, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

The Lord has sent us gifts to the body of Christ so that we would grow up in Him. Teachers are one of them. Some teachers are anointed to teach on certain areas of truth. If we reject teachers teaching us we are cutting ourselves off from what the Lord has for us.

The Holy Spirit uses teachers to help with us to learn the things of Jesus. He is the One inside us that witnesses to the truth. The very question as to why we need teachers is basic unless we know everything now. So, unless people have arrived as outlined in verse 13 below - we will always need teachers.

Ephesians 4:11-13 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Acts 13:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Yawn, agreed with the above.
I just don't see Prince as a true teacher of Scripture...at least not from what I've read from the posts here of his followers.

crossnote · Jan 31, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

So it is ok to judge my observations but I can't judge your 'holy ones'?

Grace777x70 · Jan 31, 2016

Ok..thanks for telling the truth...I can understand that and why the malice towards for him is evident...everyone is free to believe what they want about leaders in the body of Christ...and you are entitled to yours too...it conflicts with your religious beliefs....I fully understand that...have a great day!..hope things are well in Cal!

crossnote said:

crossnote · Jan 31, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

I want the context from the book. I wasted 6 min on the 1st video.

crossnote · Jan 31, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

You too, btw, false teachers are not our leaders in the Scriptures.

Gr8grace · Jan 31, 2016

crossnote said:

I pretty much agree with that statement, if I am reading it in the right context.

Believers judge themselves, by their own conscience(Doctrine in our soul)

Acts 24:16And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

The Holy Spirit convinces us that we are out of Gods plan, and we need to get back in His plan.

I always focus on the quenching of the Spirit, which is religion and our own righteousness. The Holy Spirit is not going PAY,PAY,PAY because we are stuck in religion. or PAY,PAY,PAY because we sit in a pew to feel better about ourselves.

He gives us a one liner from a teacher who is teaching TRUTH on a radio station or a bit of truth from another believer and we can make a positive or negative decision to that truth.

He convicts the world(Cosmos/unbelievers) of their sin of unbelief. We are not of this world.

GOD IS FOR YOU, NOT AGAINST YOU

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