Calvinism vs. Arminianism: Good article

[sparkman]

The unconverted are dead in their sins, and unable to do anything to correct their dilemma...not merely sick


Ephesians 2:1-5 2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins[SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— [SUP]3 [/SUP]among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[SUP][a][/SUP] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]4 [/SUP]But[SUP][c][/SUP] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [SUP]5 [/SUP]even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Ephesians 4:17-18 [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. [SUP]18 [/SUP]They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

Colossians 2:13 [SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The unconverted are dead in their sins, and unable to do anything to correct their dilemma...not merely sick


Ephesians 2:1-5 2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins[SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— [SUP]3 [/SUP]among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[SUP][a][/SUP] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]4 [/SUP]But[SUP][c][/SUP] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [SUP]5 [/SUP]even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Ephesians 4:17-18 [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. [SUP]18 [/SUP]They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

Colossians 2:13 [SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses

You still have the issue of a man made alive while still dead in sin apart from being justified.

He who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe in condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son..

A person in unbelief is still in a condemned state he could not have been made alive yet.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, [SUP]15 [/SUP]that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [SUP]18 [/SUP]“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

A picture of moses, and the serpent. A child of Israel had to chose to look at the serpent to be saved. If they did not, they died.

God supplied the way to be saved, We must trust him,, and stop trusting self.. Are we going to believe (look at the serpent) or continue in unbelief (refuse to look up)

 

[John146]

Acts 16:14, why did the Lord open her heart to the teaching of Paul? Because she was already seeking and worshipping God. Paul would show her a more excellent way.

Ephesians 2:8-9, it's not my faith, but the faith of Christ. Grace is a gift from God. A gift is not forced but received. Many refuse this gift.

Philippians 1:29, it has been given on behalf of Christ that all would believe. God is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.

Acts 11:18, salvation is come even to the Gentiles. It's no longer a Jew thing only.

2 Timothy 2:25, speaking of those believers who have been taken captive by the devil and the lusts of this world. In meekness, bring them back to the truth.

Ephesians 2:1-5, if God has elected those to be saved from the foundation of the world, that would mean His wrath was never against us, ever.

How do you explain these verses?

Acts 16:14 [SUP]14 [/SUP]One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

Ephesians 2:8-10 [SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Philippians 1:29 [SUP]29 [/SUP]For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Acts 11:18 [SUP]18 [/SUP]When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

II Tim 2:25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth

Regarding the relationship between faith and repentance, faith is turning toward God and repentance is turning away from sin. In these verses, it's apparent that faith, repentance, and salvation as a whole are gifts of God, and that God acts monergistically to save mankind, who is spiritually dead and incapable of responding to God without his intervention. See Ephesians 2:1-5. It is emphatic that mankind is dead in sins, and is incapable of responding to God...not seriously sick but dead.

 

[John146]

I love to talk about it. Who knows how long Paul resisted the Holy Spirit, kicking against the pricks. God showed Himself to Paul in order that he would become the Apostle to the Gentiles. Apostleship demanded seeing the resurrected Savior. Ironically, Paul would preach to the Gentiles that faith cometh by hearing, by faith and not by sight. Paul was a Jew however, who came to faith by sight.

Pretty funny....Paul and his Damascus Road experience is definitely one that the free-willers don't want to talk about

God is Sovereign!

 

[John146]

Great point as this was a shadow of Christ.

John 3:14-15, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, [SUP]15 [/SUP]that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [SUP]18 [/SUP]“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

A picture of moses, and the serpent. A child of Israel had to chose to look at the serpent to be saved. If they did not, they died.

God supplied the way to be saved, We must trust him,, and stop trusting self.. Are we going to believe (look at the serpent) or continue in unbelief (refuse to look up)

 

[Gr8grace]

How do you explain these verses?

Acts 16:14 [SUP]14 [/SUP]One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

Ephesians 2:8-10 [SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Philippians 1:29 [SUP]29 [/SUP]For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Acts 11:18 [SUP]18 [/SUP]When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

II Tim 2:25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth

Regarding the relationship between faith and repentance, faith is turning toward God and repentance is turning away from sin. In these verses, it's apparent that faith, repentance, and salvation as a whole are gifts of God, and that God acts monergistically to save mankind, who is spiritually dead and incapable of responding to God without his intervention. See Ephesians 2:1-5. It is emphatic that mankind is dead in sins, and is incapable of responding to God...not seriously sick but dead.

Very simple. The Holy Spirit is the one who opens the ears of us all...............some willingly flip him the bird. Some willingly do not.

2 Cor 6:2~~New American Standard Bible
for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU." Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION "--

We are in the Kingdom conflict. Satan has accused God that He is unfair in His judgement of satan.

What Calvinism says, is exactly what satan is accusing God of.......," God, you are unfair in my sentencing. You made me like this, you made me to fall and it was not my fault."

We use our God given freewill to Glorify the Lord and Prove(witness) to satan that God is fair,just and righteous in His sentencing of satan.

 

[KennethC]

I love to talk about it. Who knows how long Paul resisted the Holy Spirit, kicking against the pricks. God showed Himself to Paul in order that he would become the Apostle to the Gentiles. Apostleship demanded seeing the resurrected Savior. Ironically, Paul would preach to the Gentiles that faith cometh by hearing, by faith and not by sight. Paul was a Jew however, who came to faith by sight.

The bold is not true, as the Word of God list a number of people that did not walk or talk with the Lord but were made Apostles under the guidance of the original 11.

Salvanus, Timothy, Barnabas, and others all came later and not once does it say any of them walked with or even seen the resurrected Savior.

 

[Tinuviel]

what if we are neither? why do we have to discuss calvin or arminian anyway, they have been dead for how long now?

Because ONE of them (or, as the article said, a mix) believes in the Gospel truly set forth, and that is important. As my favorite teacher says, (with all due respect) "it doesn't have to be called that, it might as well be called "Paulisim", "Mosesisim", or "Jesusisim"; quite plainly, it is the Gospel. because of all the false teachings out there, it is nice to have a handle, so when someone asks, you can say, "I'm a bible believing christian that believes ______"

 

[John146]

They were apostles, not Apostles. The bible never addresses Timothy as Apostle Timothy.

The bold is not true, as the Word of God list a number of people that did not walk or talk with the Lord but were made Apostles under the guidance of the original 11.

Salvanus, Timothy, Barnabas, and others all came later and not once does it say any of them walked with or even seen the resurrected Savior.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because ONE of them (or, as the article said, a mix) believes in the Gospel truly set forth, and that is important. As my favorite teacher says, (with all due respect) "it doesn't have to be called that, it might as well be called "Paulisim", "Mosesisim", or "Jesusisim"; quite plainly, it is the Gospel. because of all the false teachings out there, it is nice to have a handle, so when someone asks, you can say, "I'm a bible believing christian that believes ______"

I am a bible believein Christian that believes.

I am not calvanist. (although I know they are saved, I think they got a few things messed up)

I reject arminian outright as heresy..

So again, I ask my question.. What if we are niether..lol

 

[Tinuviel]

Here's a good article on Gotquestions.org concerning Calvinism vs. Arminianism.

Wow, Good article Robert! I guess if you want to get a lot of buzz and answers, this is a good topic. Keep up the good work bro.

 

[Tinuviel]

I am a bible believein Christian that believes.

I am not calvanist. (although I know they are saved, I think they got a few things messed up)

I reject arminian outright as heresy..

So again, I ask my question.. What if we are niether..lol

Well, I personally believe that Calvinism is supported by the bible, but I'm not a bigot; You can totally NOT believe in most of the 5 points of Calvinism all your life, and still believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and be saved!

So if you're neither, you're not going to hell (provided you believe in Christ's sacrifice, as I stated above). You just don't have that super easy handle. And I feel really bad for people who don't believe in the Westminster Confession, Shorter Catechism etc. because those are awesome references, but...lets not go there.

 

[KennethC]

They were apostles, not Apostles. The bible never addresses Timothy as Apostle Timothy.

There is no such thing as different apostles, there is only one position for that in the Church, not two !!!

As for Timothy yes it does, in 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 2:6 it states there that Silvanus and Timothy are apostles, and Paul gives them the same standing as him !!!

 

[KennethC]

Well, I personally believe that Calvinism is supported by the bible, but I'm not a bigot; You can totally NOT believe in most of the 5 points of Calvinism all your life, and still believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and be saved!

So if you're neither, you're not going to hell (provided you believe in Christ's sacrifice, as I stated above). You just don't have that super easy handle. And I feel really bad for people who don't believe in the Westminster Confession, Shorter Catechism etc. because those are awesome references, but...lets not go there.

This is a quote from John Calvin:

"If falling away were possible then they were never believers to begin with"


That however is not what the Word of God says, as in Matthew 24:10-13, Acts 20:28-31, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 3:12-14, 6:4-6, 1 Timothy 4:1, Romans 11:19-22, Colossians 1:22-23, James 1:12, 5:12, 5:19-20 as well as others show falling away from the faith is possible !!!

 

[John146]

Paul and the twelve held the office of Apostle, while the others were given the gifts of apostleship to continue the work the Apostles started. They were considered apostles, small a, never Apostles, capital A.

There is no such thing as different apostles, there is only one position for that in the Church, not two !!!

As for Timothy yes it does, in 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 2:6 it states there that Silvanus and Timothy are apostles, and Paul gives them the same standing as him !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, I personally believe that Calvinism is supported by the bible, but I'm not a bigot; You can totally NOT believe in most of the 5 points of Calvinism all your life, and still believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and be saved!

So if you're neither, you're not going to hell (provided you believe in Christ's sacrifice, as I stated above). You just don't have that super easy handle. And I feel really bad for people who don't believe in the Westminster Confession, Shorter Catechism etc. because those are awesome references, but...lets not go there.

I have the bible.. Thats all I need, I try not to listen to men, Men have proven since the Hebrews made all their extra books, to take the word of God and distort it..lol

Thats why I do not like name calling, Paul said not to be followers of men but God..

I just take Gods word at value, If he says it he meant it.. That's all we need. At least that's how I feel.

I agree though, it is all about the cross.. Legalism (of which arminain is one of many who follow these self righteous gospels) is not a gospel of God..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a quote from John Calvin:

"If falling away were possible then they were never believers to begin with"


That however is not what the Word of God says, as in Matthew 24:10-13, Acts 20:28-31, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 3:12-14, 6:4-6, 1 Timothy 4:1, Romans 11:19-22, Colossians 1:22-23, James 1:12, 5:12, 5:19-20 as well as others show falling away from the faith is possible !!!

Fact,
If falling away is possible. Then we better WORK very very hard in all our strength not to fall away.

So much for Ken not teaching a self righteous works based Gospel.

Calvin was right in that statement, A true believer will never fall away, But we have to warn our churches, because many who attend the are not yet true believers, and can easily fall away.

 

[John146]

Galatians 5:1-5 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."

If a lost man gets circumcised, Christ's death is meaningless. If a lost man gets uncircumcised then Christ's death is meaningless. In either case, a lost or saved man who gets circumcised voluntarily subjects himself to do the whole law under the penalty of the curse, Christ is dead in vain.

If verse 4 is addressed to the saved, then this would follow...spirituality would be a result of doing the law rather than doing as a result of spirituality. The Bible evidence of spirituality is often difficult to measure but obvious in evidence.

If fallen from grace meant the loss of your security in Christ, the context dictates that the only way to justify yourself is by keeping the whole law and getting circumcised.

Those "ye" in verse 4 is different than the "we" Paul uses in verse 5.

Fact,
If falling away is possible. Then we better WORK very very hard in all our strength not to fall away.

So much for Ken not teaching a self righteous works based Gospel.

Calvin was right in that statement, A true believer will never fall away, But we have to warn our churches, because many who attend the are not yet true believers, and can easily fall away.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Galatians 5:1-5 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."

If a lost man gets circumcised, Christ's death is meaningless. If a lost man gets uncircumcised then Christ's death is meaningless. In either case, a lost or saved man who gets circumcised voluntarily subjects himself to do the whole law under the penalty of the curse, Christ is dead in vain.

If verse 4 is addressed to the saved, then this would follow...spirituality would be a result of doing the law rather than doing as a result of spirituality. The Bible evidence of spirituality is often difficult to measure but obvious in evidence.

If fallen from grace meant the loss of your security in Christ, the context dictates that the only way to justify yourself is by keeping the whole law and getting circumcised.

Those "ye" in verse 4 is different than the "we" Paul uses in verse 5.

The context is those who have added the law to grace. person who has not yet made the decision to follow God in grace, is easily sedued to go back to the law 9what they were before) because they have not yet been saved.

If they add the law to the gospel. they will never accept grace as a means of salvation they have passed the point of no repentance.

It is no different than a lifetime catholic hearing the gospel and trying this different church out, iif he returns to his faith (catholic) he will never try grace again.. They have fallen from Grace (truth)

 

[John146]

Agreed. Notice Paul addresses this letter, not to the church of Galatia, but the churches of Galatia. There were lost people amongst the believers. When Paul would address the church as in other epistles, he is addressing the body of believers in that area, the body of Christ.

The context is those who have added the law to grace. person who has not yet made the decision to follow God in grace, is easily sedued to go back to the law 9what they were before) because they have not yet been saved.

If they add the law to the gospel. they will never accept grace as a means of salvation they have passed the point of no repentance.

It is no different than a lifetime catholic hearing the gospel and trying this different church out, iif he returns to his faith (catholic) he will never try grace again.. They have fallen from Grace (truth)