-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
That's really easy.
The Holy Spirit.
Nobody has been born solely by God the Father and not by a flesh father since Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ was born perfect, in flesh, like no other.
If we had the ability to walk righteously according to our will the Lord Jesus Christ would never have said Without Me you can do nothing.
He would never have said With men this is impossible but With God All things are Possible.
Why is it impossible with men? Because of inability. Impossible.
The sin nature is directly linked to mans free will. Read Romans 7. If men had ability to walk righteously, to choose righteously, to do righteously, then there's no point in the Work of Christ.
People could just say "Thanks for the boost, I've got it from here". And then they could condemn all the people who aren't walking as "righteously" as they are.
But Christians can't do that because we rely completely on the Lord Jesus Christ and not on our ability, which is inability.
The Holy Spirit.
Nobody has been born solely by God the Father and not by a flesh father since Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ was born perfect, in flesh, like no other.
If we had the ability to walk righteously according to our will the Lord Jesus Christ would never have said Without Me you can do nothing.
He would never have said With men this is impossible but With God All things are Possible.
Why is it impossible with men? Because of inability. Impossible.
The sin nature is directly linked to mans free will. Read Romans 7. If men had ability to walk righteously, to choose righteously, to do righteously, then there's no point in the Work of Christ.
People could just say "Thanks for the boost, I've got it from here". And then they could condemn all the people who aren't walking as "righteously" as they are.
But Christians can't do that because we rely completely on the Lord Jesus Christ and not on our ability, which is inability.
S
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Note that ALL those that the Father gives Jesus WILL come to him, and those same individuals will NEVER be cast out.
Sounds like irresistible grace and preservation of the Holy Spirit (a better description of perseverance of the saints) to me
Note that ALL those that the Father gives Jesus WILL come to him, and those same individuals will NEVER be cast out.
Sounds like irresistible grace and preservation of the Holy Spirit (a better description of perseverance of the saints) to me
Attachments
E
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Note that ALL those that the Father gives Jesus WILL come to him, and those same individuals will NEVER be cast out.
Sounds like irresistible grace and preservation of the Holy Spirit (a better description of perseverance of the saints) to me
Note that ALL those that the Father gives Jesus WILL come to him, and those same individuals will NEVER be cast out.
Sounds like irresistible grace and preservation of the Holy Spirit (a better description of perseverance of the saints) to me
But I disagree irresistible grace.
God gave based on foreknowledge.. Not because his grace was irresistible. if it was irresistible. everyone would receive it. and no one would be lost..
S
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Notice that NO ONE CAN come to Christ, unless the Father draws him, and that he WILL HIM UP on the last day.
Sounds like moral inability, unconditional election, irresistible grace (see word studies below) and preservation of the Holy Spirit (perseverance of the saints) to me
And..yes...."draw" means to be "dragged" in Greek
See these word studies:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/6/44/t_conc_1003044
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1670&t=KJV
Notice that NO ONE CAN come to Christ, unless the Father draws him, and that he WILL HIM UP on the last day.
Sounds like moral inability, unconditional election, irresistible grace (see word studies below) and preservation of the Holy Spirit (perseverance of the saints) to me
And..yes...."draw" means to be "dragged" in Greek
See these word studies:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/6/44/t_conc_1003044
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1670&t=KJV
Attachments
G
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Notice that NO ONE CAN come to Christ, unless the Father draws him, and that he WILL HIM UP on the last day.
Sounds like moral inability, unconditional election, irresistible grace (see word studies below) and preservation of the Holy Spirit (perseverance of the saints) to me
And..yes...."draw" means to be "dragged" in Greek
See these word studies:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/6/44/t_conc_1003044
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1670&t=KJV
Notice that NO ONE CAN come to Christ, unless the Father draws him, and that he WILL HIM UP on the last day.
Sounds like moral inability, unconditional election, irresistible grace (see word studies below) and preservation of the Holy Spirit (perseverance of the saints) to me
And..yes...."draw" means to be "dragged" in Greek
See these word studies:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/6/44/t_conc_1003044
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1670&t=KJV
John 12:32~~New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
S
Divine Sovereignty
Charles Spurgeon
There is no attribute of God more comforting to his children than the doctrine of Divine Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe troubles, they believe that Sovereignty hath ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all. There is nothing for which the children of God ought more earnestly to contend than the dominion of their Master over all creation—the kingship of God over all the works of his own hands—the throne of God, and his right to sit upon that throne.
On the other hand, there is no doctrine more hated by worldlings, no truth of which they have made such a foot-ball, as the great, stupendous, but yet most certain doctrine of the Sovereignty of the infinite Jehovah. Men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne. They will allow him to be in his workshop to fashion worlds and to make stars. They will allow him to be in his almonry to dispense his alms and bestow his bounties. They will allow him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever-moving ocean; but when God ascends his throne, his creatures then gnash their teeth; and when we proclaim an enthroned God, and his right to do as he wills with his own, to dispose of his creatures as he thinks well, without consulting them in the matter, then it is that we are hissed and execrated, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on his throne is not the God they love. They love him anywhere better than they do when he sits with his sceptre in his hand and his crown upon his head. But it is God upon the throne that we love to preach. It is God upon his throne whom we trust. It is God upon his throne of whom we have been singing this morning; and it is God upon his throne of whom we shall speak in this discourse. I shall dwell only, however, upon one portion of God's Sovereignty, and that is God's Sovereignty in the distribution of his gifts. In this respect I believe he has a right to do as he wills with his own, and that he exercises that right.
Divine Sovereignty
Charles Spurgeon
There is no attribute of God more comforting to his children than the doctrine of Divine Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe troubles, they believe that Sovereignty hath ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all. There is nothing for which the children of God ought more earnestly to contend than the dominion of their Master over all creation—the kingship of God over all the works of his own hands—the throne of God, and his right to sit upon that throne.
On the other hand, there is no doctrine more hated by worldlings, no truth of which they have made such a foot-ball, as the great, stupendous, but yet most certain doctrine of the Sovereignty of the infinite Jehovah. Men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne. They will allow him to be in his workshop to fashion worlds and to make stars. They will allow him to be in his almonry to dispense his alms and bestow his bounties. They will allow him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever-moving ocean; but when God ascends his throne, his creatures then gnash their teeth; and when we proclaim an enthroned God, and his right to do as he wills with his own, to dispose of his creatures as he thinks well, without consulting them in the matter, then it is that we are hissed and execrated, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on his throne is not the God they love. They love him anywhere better than they do when he sits with his sceptre in his hand and his crown upon his head. But it is God upon the throne that we love to preach. It is God upon his throne whom we trust. It is God upon his throne of whom we have been singing this morning; and it is God upon his throne of whom we shall speak in this discourse. I shall dwell only, however, upon one portion of God's Sovereignty, and that is God's Sovereignty in the distribution of his gifts. In this respect I believe he has a right to do as he wills with his own, and that he exercises that right.
Divine Sovereignty
E
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Notice that NO ONE CAN come to Christ, unless the Father draws him, and that he WILL HIM UP on the last day.
Sounds like moral inability, unconditional election, irresistible grace (see word studies below) and preservation of the Holy Spirit (perseverance of the saints) to me
And..yes...."draw" means to be "dragged" in Greek
See these word studies:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/6/44/t_conc_1003044
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1670&t=KJV
Notice that NO ONE CAN come to Christ, unless the Father draws him, and that he WILL HIM UP on the last day.
Sounds like moral inability, unconditional election, irresistible grace (see word studies below) and preservation of the Holy Spirit (perseverance of the saints) to me
And..yes...."draw" means to be "dragged" in Greek
See these word studies:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/6/44/t_conc_1003044
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1670&t=KJV
Many are called few are chosen.
God goes and draws many to him who will never be saved, How do we know this.
1. Whoever is given the gospel has heard the word of God. and is drawn to him.
2. The HS is sent to convict the world of righteousness sin and judgment (not just the elect)
3. Paul tells us in romans 1. We all know God, and his righteous judgment, Because his creation draws us to him. in fact, because of this, No one on judgment day will have an excuse.
So sorry, Irresistable grace is a lie.
Again if it was so irresistible. NO ONE WOULD REJECT IT.
E
Gods sovereignty does not send people to hell based on the sole reason, he did not chose them..
That would make God no better than satan..
Gods sovereignty does give us great hope. I was chosen before the foundation of the world. and thus I am secure in Christ.
It does not mean, God just chose me, It means God secured me.
That would make God no better than satan..
Gods sovereignty does give us great hope. I was chosen before the foundation of the world. and thus I am secure in Christ.
It does not mean, God just chose me, It means God secured me.
S
I like these definitions of the doctrines of grace (TULIP) points They are presented in James White's book Potter's Freedom, which is an excellent defense of the doctrines of grace:
Total Depravity
Man is dead in sin, completely and radically impacted by the Fall, the enemy of God, incapable of saving himself. This does not mean that man is as evil as he could be. Nor does it mean that the image of God is destroyed, or that the will is done away with. Instead, it refers to the pervasiveness of the effects of sin, and the fact that man is, outside of Christ, the enemy of God.
Unconditional Election
God elects a specific people unto Himself without reference to anything they do. This means the basis of God's choice of the elect is solely within Himself; His grace, His mercy, His will. It is not man's actions, works, or even foreseen faith, that "draws" God's choice. God's election is unconditional and final.
Limited Atonement
Since it is God's purpose to save a special people for Himself, and He has chosen to do so only through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ, Christ came to give His life "a ransom for many" so as to "save His people from their sins" (Matt 1:21). The intention of Christ in His cross-work was to save His people specifically. Therefore, Christ's sacrifice is perfect and complete, for it actually accompanies perfect redemption.
Irresistible Grace
This is the belief that God is able to raise the spiritually dead sinner to life. This is an act of efficient grace. When God chooses to bring one of His elect to spiritual life, it is an act similar to when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead: just as Lazarus was incapable of resisting the power of Christ in raising him from the dead, so too the dead sinner is incapable of resisting the power of God that raises him to spiritual life. This is not to say that men have not resisted God's grace. This doctrine speaks specifically to the grace that brings regeneration, not to individual acts of sin committed by believers or unbelievers.
Perseverance of the Saints
Some prefer saying "the preservation of the saints" to emphasize that this is the work of God; others use the phrase "eternal security" to emphasize the impossibility of God's perfect work of salvation being undone. But whatever one calls it, it is the belief that when Christ saves one of His elect, He will not fail to keep that saved person throughout life and bring them safely into His presence. It is, in short, the belief that Christ is able to save perfectly.
Total Depravity
Man is dead in sin, completely and radically impacted by the Fall, the enemy of God, incapable of saving himself. This does not mean that man is as evil as he could be. Nor does it mean that the image of God is destroyed, or that the will is done away with. Instead, it refers to the pervasiveness of the effects of sin, and the fact that man is, outside of Christ, the enemy of God.
Unconditional Election
God elects a specific people unto Himself without reference to anything they do. This means the basis of God's choice of the elect is solely within Himself; His grace, His mercy, His will. It is not man's actions, works, or even foreseen faith, that "draws" God's choice. God's election is unconditional and final.
Limited Atonement
Since it is God's purpose to save a special people for Himself, and He has chosen to do so only through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ, Christ came to give His life "a ransom for many" so as to "save His people from their sins" (Matt 1:21). The intention of Christ in His cross-work was to save His people specifically. Therefore, Christ's sacrifice is perfect and complete, for it actually accompanies perfect redemption.
Irresistible Grace
This is the belief that God is able to raise the spiritually dead sinner to life. This is an act of efficient grace. When God chooses to bring one of His elect to spiritual life, it is an act similar to when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead: just as Lazarus was incapable of resisting the power of Christ in raising him from the dead, so too the dead sinner is incapable of resisting the power of God that raises him to spiritual life. This is not to say that men have not resisted God's grace. This doctrine speaks specifically to the grace that brings regeneration, not to individual acts of sin committed by believers or unbelievers.
Perseverance of the Saints
Some prefer saying "the preservation of the saints" to emphasize that this is the work of God; others use the phrase "eternal security" to emphasize the impossibility of God's perfect work of salvation being undone. But whatever one calls it, it is the belief that when Christ saves one of His elect, He will not fail to keep that saved person throughout life and bring them safely into His presence. It is, in short, the belief that Christ is able to save perfectly.
G
Salvation does not reveal the Sovereignty of God. Or His Love. The Cross revealed Gods Love, salvation of a man reveals His justice or righteousness.
If God saved us through His sovereignty and choose, arbitrarily, who went to heaven and who went to hell..........he would be UNJUST.
If God saved us through His Love, everybody would be saved............He would be UNJUST. Christ was unjustly sacrificed on the Cross.
Ps 98:2~~New American Standard Bible
The LORD has made known His salvation; He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations.
Rom 1:17~~King James Bible
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Ps 98:9~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.
Ps 9:8~~New American Standard Bible
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.
Every divine attribute of God goes through His righteousness first. God cannot be unjust or unrighteous.
If God saved us through His sovereignty and choose, arbitrarily, who went to heaven and who went to hell..........he would be UNJUST.
If God saved us through His Love, everybody would be saved............He would be UNJUST. Christ was unjustly sacrificed on the Cross.
Ps 98:2~~New American Standard Bible
The LORD has made known His salvation; He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations.
Rom 1:17~~King James Bible
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Ps 98:9~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.
Ps 9:8~~New American Standard Bible
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.
Every divine attribute of God goes through His righteousness first. God cannot be unjust or unrighteous.
S
I don't know how Arminians get around the Golden Chain of Redemption (Romans 8:28-30)...not only that, but I don't know how they fail to connect the context of Romans 9 with these verses. The common Arminian defense concerning Romans 9, which speaks very clearly on predestination, is that it is talking about corporate election. However, it's very apparent that Romans 8:28-30 is speaking of individuals. There are no chapter breaks in Scripture, so there's no justification for shifting context.
Note that Paul speaks of salvation in a completed, past tense for the elect:
Romans 8:28-30 [SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[SUP][a][/SUP] for those who are called according to his purpose. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
I've seen individuals claim to break the "golden chain of redemption" but their explanations are ridiculous.
The ultimate conclusion on this matter, for me, is that God is Sovereign, and man is not. Our desire to be sovereign is part of the Fall..we basically told God to get lost, and declared our independence from Him. Arminians are retaining the illusion of self-rulership. I don't know the deal they had with God, but my deal was unconditional surrender. I am not sovereign in my salvation or anything else; God is.
Note that Paul speaks of salvation in a completed, past tense for the elect:
Romans 8:28-30 [SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[SUP][a][/SUP] for those who are called according to his purpose. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
I've seen individuals claim to break the "golden chain of redemption" but their explanations are ridiculous.
The ultimate conclusion on this matter, for me, is that God is Sovereign, and man is not. Our desire to be sovereign is part of the Fall..we basically told God to get lost, and declared our independence from Him. Arminians are retaining the illusion of self-rulership. I don't know the deal they had with God, but my deal was unconditional surrender. I am not sovereign in my salvation or anything else; God is.
Last edited:
G
Now honestly, the arminian side of the debate is what I LOATHE. At least the calvinist side has the Gospel right.
Romans 8 does not say ," predestined to salvation." ALL believers are predestined to a pre-designed plan that was before the foundation of the world.
We are not predestined to believe or predestined to salvation........we are predestined to a pre-designed plan.
Adoption and all the benefits that go along with it........eternal security arguably being the FIRST that the believer needs to get straight in their head.
Romans 8 does not say ," predestined to salvation." ALL believers are predestined to a pre-designed plan that was before the foundation of the world.
We are not predestined to believe or predestined to salvation........we are predestined to a pre-designed plan.
Adoption and all the benefits that go along with it........eternal security arguably being the FIRST that the believer needs to get straight in their head.
S
Here's a good article in regards to the differences between Calvinist and Arminian Theology regarding the order of events in salvation.
Note that in the Calvinist view, regeneration must precede faith. This is perfectly consistent with what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3. No one can even SEE the kingdom of God, let alone enter into it, until he is born again (born from above or regenerated). Mankind is dead in sins and trespasses..not simply "sick" and in need of a doctor.
Note also that regeneration is a sovereign work of God. You don't choose to be born physically, and neither do you choose to be born spiritually. As the verses say, the wind blows where it wishes....the Holy Spirit is pictured as wind in these verses. Being regenerated, which precedes faith, is a sovereign act of God.
John 3: 1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. [SUP]2 [/SUP]This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” [SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ [SUP]8[/SUP]The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”[SUP]9 [/SUP]Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? [SUP]11 [/SUP]Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. [SUP]12 [/SUP]If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? [SUP]13 [/SUP]No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, [SUP]15 [/SUP]that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[SUP][b][/SUP] have eternal life. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [SUP]18 [/SUP]“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God".
What is the ordo salutis?
by Matt Slick
The ordo salutis is Latin for "order of salvation." It deals with what God has revealed to us about how He saves sinners regarding the order of His work upon them. Though the Scriptures do not list a direct order of the events ordained by God that bring us salvation, different theological camps have, nonetheless, proposed different orders.
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Calvinist[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Arminian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Catholic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Of importance is the order of faith and regeneration.
In the Calvinist perspective, regeneration proceeds faith where in the Arminian and Catholic perspectives, faith precedes regeneration.
In the Calvinist perspective, this is a logical order and not necessarily a temporal one. In Arminianism and Catholicism, it is temporal.
The logical necessity of regeneration preceding faith, according to the Calvinist perspective, would be the same as the logical necessity of electricity preceding light in a lightbulb. It is logically necessary that electricity precedes light, but it is not logically necessary that light precedes electricity.
When electricity is present, the light is the necessary result but not the reverse.
In Arminianism and Catholicism, faith precedes regeneration temporally. In other words, both of their orders affirm that there is a duration of time where faith temporally precedes regeneration. They teach that a person must be enabled by God to believe: prevenient grace in Arminianism and actual grace in Roman Catholicism.
The Calvinist perspective would teach that a person is not able to believe in God from within his sinfulness and must experience regeneration before he is able to believe.
In all three perspectives listed above, the final state of the ordo salutis is the glorification of the individual. This glorification is the full resurrection and glorified bodies which all true Christians will enjoy for eternity in the presence of God.
References:
https://carm.org/what-is-the-ordo-salutis
Note that in the Calvinist view, regeneration must precede faith. This is perfectly consistent with what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3. No one can even SEE the kingdom of God, let alone enter into it, until he is born again (born from above or regenerated). Mankind is dead in sins and trespasses..not simply "sick" and in need of a doctor.
Note also that regeneration is a sovereign work of God. You don't choose to be born physically, and neither do you choose to be born spiritually. As the verses say, the wind blows where it wishes....the Holy Spirit is pictured as wind in these verses. Being regenerated, which precedes faith, is a sovereign act of God.
John 3: 1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. [SUP]2 [/SUP]This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” [SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ [SUP]8[/SUP]The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”[SUP]9 [/SUP]Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? [SUP]11 [/SUP]Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. [SUP]12 [/SUP]If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? [SUP]13 [/SUP]No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, [SUP]15 [/SUP]that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[SUP][b][/SUP] have eternal life. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [SUP]18 [/SUP]“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God".
What is the ordo salutis?
by Matt Slick
The ordo salutis is Latin for "order of salvation." It deals with what God has revealed to us about how He saves sinners regarding the order of His work upon them. Though the Scriptures do not list a direct order of the events ordained by God that bring us salvation, different theological camps have, nonetheless, proposed different orders.
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Calvinist[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Arminian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Catholic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
- Election--God's choice of people to save. This choice occurred before the foundation of the world.
- Predestination--The work of God to ordain to salvation those who have been elected to it.
- Calling--The preaching of the gospel message.
- Regeneration--The change in the person produced by God.
- Faith--The trust an individual has in the work of God on the cross.
- Repentance--Turning from sin.
- Justification--The imputation of righteousness to the individual thus making him righteous according to the law.
- Sanctification--God's work in the individual to make him more like Christ.
- Perseverance--God's work in the individual results in the person continually believing throughout his life.
- Glorification--Resurrection to glory with God.
[TD]
- Calling--The preaching of the gospel.
- Prevenient Grace --A grace from God that enables a person to believe.
- Faith--The trust an individual has in the work of God on the cross.
- Repentance--Turning from sin.
- Regeneration--The change in the person produced by God.
- Justification--The imputation of righteousness to the individual thus making him righteous according to the law.
- Perseverance--God's work in the individual results in the person continually believing throughout his life.
- Glorification--Resurrection to glory with God.
[TD]
- Actual Grace--God enables a person to respond to God's call of faith.
- Faith--The trust an individual has in the work of God on the cross.
- Contrition--Attitude of remorse for sins committed.
- Regeneration/Baptism--The change produced in a person at baptism where all previous sins are removed.
- Penance--The process of regaining grace lost via sinning so that salvation is maintained.
- Glorification--Resurrection to glory with God.
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Of importance is the order of faith and regeneration.
In the Calvinist perspective, regeneration proceeds faith where in the Arminian and Catholic perspectives, faith precedes regeneration.
In the Calvinist perspective, this is a logical order and not necessarily a temporal one. In Arminianism and Catholicism, it is temporal.
The logical necessity of regeneration preceding faith, according to the Calvinist perspective, would be the same as the logical necessity of electricity preceding light in a lightbulb. It is logically necessary that electricity precedes light, but it is not logically necessary that light precedes electricity.
When electricity is present, the light is the necessary result but not the reverse.
In Arminianism and Catholicism, faith precedes regeneration temporally. In other words, both of their orders affirm that there is a duration of time where faith temporally precedes regeneration. They teach that a person must be enabled by God to believe: prevenient grace in Arminianism and actual grace in Roman Catholicism.
The Calvinist perspective would teach that a person is not able to believe in God from within his sinfulness and must experience regeneration before he is able to believe.
In all three perspectives listed above, the final state of the ordo salutis is the glorification of the individual. This glorification is the full resurrection and glorified bodies which all true Christians will enjoy for eternity in the presence of God.
References:
- Grudem, Wayne (2009-05-18). Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (p. 670). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.
- monergism.com/topics/ordo-salutis
- frame-poythress.org/salvation-and-theological-pedagogy
- arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2009/03/17/the-arminian-and-calvinist-ordo-salutis-a-brief-comparative-study/
https://carm.org/what-is-the-ordo-salutis
Last edited: