Are You Pro-Life?

[Ultimatum77]

So you think it's acceptable for innocent people to sit in prison for years and then be killed on the off-chance that we might really be killing someone wicked?

Unfortunately it happens so yes, the justice system is not perfect (it's human run after all), I think the good of killing more hardened criminals outweighs the 1 innocent person who slipped through the cracks...

Why waste tax payer money when prisoners get to eat, sleep, exercise, earn degrees, have free housing no bills to pay all because some dirt bag decided to kill someone or go sell dope? Those who don't murder should be spared but forced to work not sit on their rear all day getting a free ride...murderers who are unrepentant should be done away with, while those who do show remorse can be spared but should also be forced to work....

 

[KimPetras]

It's not really possible to have 100% knowledge and proof. The justice system will make mistakes because it is a human system. And it's not possible to err on the side of caution if there's things to be cautious about on both sides. Some arguing for death penalty are also being cautious about the risks involved in keeping a murderer alive.

Of course it’s not possible to know 100%. That is why it’s important to let God be the one who gives/takes life. He is a perfect judge, man isn’t. I can understand the opposing argument that some are being “cautious” by wanting to execute a potentially innocent person out of fear he/she will do harm unto others. People on death row have their own housing units typically. They don’t kill anyone. They are no danger to other inmates. Keeping them there and abolishing the death penalty alleviates those risk factors, it also alleviates the chance, however small you think it is, of killing an innocent person.

 

[KimPetras]

All this pedantics falls flat, because I'm focusing on the norm, you're focusing on the exception. And I am focusing on the whole of innocent lives instead of narrowly focusing on one group of innocent lives. If there are more innocent lives in those other groups I mentioned, then your argument is sunk. However if you had statistics saying 50% of death row inmates are innocent, then you'd be making more sense, saying it does more harm than good.

I focus on life, of guilty and innocent. Even if there were accurate statistics that showed a small percentage of wrongly convicted and executed people, does that justify the shedding of innocent blood? Your argument is “We don’t need to be 100% certain to execute someone. The innocent people killed doesn’t happen often. If we killed innocent people at a higher rate, 50% or so, then we should revisit this issue. Until then, the shedding of innocent blood in capital punishment cases is a non issue.”

Furthermore, what “good” is done by killing them? It costs a lot more, they are unable to kill anyone else on death row, and they will be punished by spending the rest of their life locked up.

 

[Elizabeth619]

If a person commits a crime with knowledge the penalty is death then they signed their own death warrant.

 

[KimPetras]

"Someone who supports the death penalty is pro-death, just as someone who supports abortion." Inversely you seem to hold that being pro-life means being against abortion and against death penalty. If that is your belief, it creates a sort of equivalence. You're associating the ethical situation of the unborn, with the ethical situation of those on deathrow. It takes a very simplistic black-and-white perspective to do that.

So specifying that a label (pro-death) fits for someone who supports abortion and someone who supports the death penalty is the equivalence of comparing a “guilty person’s” life and the “unborn”? There is no ethics involved in determining labels. Languages defines these labels which you strongly disagree with. Pro = for, death = to kill, life = someone/something living. We can remove all morals and ethics when deciding who or what someone is (pro-life or not). In the case of capital punishment, someone against it values human life, hence, pro-life. Someone that is pro capital punishment may still value human life in general, but is clearly pro-death (of the accused, even without knowing with 100% certainty that he/she is truly guilty).

 

[KimPetras]

You say "It's better to let a guilty man stay in prison for life than it is to shed the blood of an innocent person." This heavily depends on how often an innocent person dies on death row and how often convicted murderers take lives after conviction. So do you have statistics relating to this?

It’s difficult to get accurate statistics on this. I can show you, or google can do this better, a multitude of people put to death where they were innocent and/or at the very least, doubt of their guilt. States, who could do the best job of accumulating data to show statistics would be shooting themselves in the foot if they decided to validate all the wrongful executions they have committed. It’s not in their best interest to go into the past and gather these statistics. Fortunately, however, there are many (not all obviously) cases posted online that we can revisit.

I have tried googling an instance where someone on death row killed another person. Do you think this has happened? If so, can you site your source? If it hasn’t happened, would you agree wrongfully convicted people have, definitely, been executed (at the very least one)? If you do, then I guess you’d agree with me that it’s better to let an guilty man rot in prison than it is to kill an innocent person.

 

[Elizabeth619]

So specifying that a label (pro-death) fits for someone who supports abortion and someone who supports the death penalty is the equivalence of comparing a “guilty person’s” life and the “unborn”? There is no ethics involved in determining labels. Languages defines these labels which you strongly disagree with. Pro = for, death = to kill, life = someone/something living. We can remove all morals and ethics when deciding who or what someone is (pro-life or not). In the case of capital punishment, someone against it values human life, hence, pro-life. Someone that is pro capital punishment may still value human life in general, but is clearly pro-death (of the accused, even without knowing with 100% certainty that he/she is truly guilty).

You seem to be referring to innocent people on death row and not the guilty. There's far more guilty on death row than innocent. Besides, it's up to the court system to determine ones innocence. Not ours unless we are chosen to serve on a jury.
I support capital punishment and I have my reasons for it. I'm not talking about killing the innocent either.

 

[KimPetras]

If a person commits a crime with knowledge the penalty is death then they signed their own death warrant.

Moses murdered an Egyptian. Moses, in order to escape Pharaoh's death penalty, fled to Midian (a desert country south of Judah).

Did the Pharaoh have the authority to kill Moses? Yes, the penalty at the time was death for what Moses did. I'm glad Moses wasn't executed, personally.

 

[KimPetras]

You seem to be referring to innocent people on death row and not the guilty. There's far more guilty on death row than innocent. Besides, it's up to the court system to determine ones innocence. Not ours unless we are chosen to serve on a jury.
I support capital punishment and I have my reasons for it. I'm not talking about killing the innocent either.

I focus on both lives. If it appears I focus entirely on the innocent, that is because no one is paying any attention whatsoever to them.

We both agree the courts decide if we are guilty or not guilty. Where we differ is I err with caution when it comes to human life (when it comes to the convicted) and I believe Christ taught against the death penalty.

When they were going to stone the woman, which was 100% justifiable for her sins in that time, Christ stopped it. If any of you are without sin, let him cast the first stone.

I believe we should err with caution in conjunction to following the New Testament sentiments about capital punishment.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Moses murdered an Egyptian. Moses, in order to escape Pharaoh's death penalty, fled to Midian (a desert country south of Judah).

Did the Pharaoh have the authority to kill Moses? Yes, the penalty at the time was death for what Moses did. I'm glad Moses wasn't executed, personally.

Moses, a man of God who freed the Jews from bondage murdered an Egyptian? I think you need to read exodus again. Moses avenged the mistreatment of one of his own and fled Egypt where he began his journey to free the slaves. Moses did not sin in "murdering" the Egyptian. As a matter of fact it was likely all in Gods plan for him. To pharaoh he was in the wrong. To God he was not. Gods law trumps Pharohs

 

[Elizabeth619]

I focus on both lives. If it appears I focus entirely on the innocent, that is because no one is paying any attention whatsoever to them.

We both agree the courts decide if we are guilty or not guilty. Where we differ is I err with caution when it comes to human life (when it comes to the convicted) and I believe Christ taught against the death penalty.

When they were going to stone the woman, which was 100% justifiable for her sins in that time, Christ stopped it. If any of you are without sin, let him cast the first stone.

I believe we should err with caution in conjunction to following the New Testament sentiments about capital punishment.

The NT says governments do not bear the sword in vain either. If the penalty is death the it's best not to commit a crime.

 

[KimPetras]

The NT says governments do not bear the sword in vain either. If the penalty is death the it's best not to commit a crime.

Yes, that means that God has given the government the authority. As I said previously, Pilot had the authority to kill Jesus, but did God really want that?

One can be allowed to do something, it doesn't necessarily mean we should. Especially when Christ clearly opposed it. It's a huge distinction.

The US government recently allowed marriage equality for all, does that mean God ordains homosexuality and gay marriage?

 

[Elizabeth619]

Yes, that means that God has given the government the authority. As I said previously, Pilot had the authority to kill Jesus, but did God really want that?

One can be allowed to do something, it doesn't necessarily mean we should. Especially when Christ clearly opposed it. It's a huge distinction.

The US government recently allowed marriage equality for all, does that mean God ordains homosexuality and gay marriage?

im serious here. Are you even a Christian?

 

[Elizabeth619]

Making something legal does not mean we have to live that way. Just bc the government says it's ok for homosexual marriage that isn't forcing us to marry someone against our will.
Homosexuality was a sin long before American government existed. Making it legal isn't forcing us to become homosexual either.
As a matter of fact there have been some Christians in government here that have been persecuted for not issuing marriage liscense to gay couples

 

[Elizabeth619]

And willingly went to jail

 

[KimPetras]

Making something legal does not mean we have to live that way. Just bc the government says it's ok for homosexual marriage that isn't forcing us to marry someone against our will.
Homosexuality was a sin long before American government existed. Making it legal isn't forcing us to become homosexual either.
As a matter of fact there have been some Christians in government here that have been persecuted for not issuing marriage liscense to gay couples

Who said anything about the government forcing us to be gay? God grants government entities authority to govern us. This doesn't mean what they do/say is necessarily what God wants. For this reason, while capital punishment is authorized, it's hard to discredit what Christ taught in his ministry about it.

As for Christians not doing their job by granting marriage licensing, they aren't forced to work in a secular job. A cop or fireman should go to the rescue of a homosexual just as he ought to for a heterosexual. If a cop or fireman isn't willing to do that for homosexuals, they would be punished, and rightfully so.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Who said anything about the government forcing us to be gay? God grants government entities authority to govern us. This doesn't mean what they do/say is necessarily what God wants. For this reason, while capital punishment is authorized, it's hard to discredit what Christ taught in his ministry about it.

As for Christians not doing their job by granting marriage licensing, they aren't forced to work in a secular job. A cop or fireman should go to the rescue of a homosexual just as he ought to for a heterosexual. If a cop or fireman isn't willing to do that for homosexuals, they would be punished, and rightfully so.

What exaclty did Christ teach about capital punishment?

 

[Elizabeth619]

Here you go Kim. Here is a good article on this issue and pretty much where I stand on it.

Question: "What does the Bible say about the death penalty / capital punishment?"

Answer: The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts: murder (Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24), and several other crimes. However, God often showed mercy when the death penalty was due. David committed adultery and murder, yet God did not demand his life be taken (2 Samuel 11:1-5, 14-17; 2 Samuel 12:13). Ultimately, every sin we commit should result in the death penalty because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Thankfully, God demonstrates His love for us in not condemning us (Romans 5:8).

When the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery to Jesus and asked Him if she should be stoned, Jesus replied, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:7). This should not be used to indicate that Jesus rejected capital punishment in all instances. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to trick Jesus into breaking the Old Testament law; they did not truly care about the woman being stoned (where was the man who was caught in adultery?) God is the One who instituted capital punishment: “Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). Jesus would support capital punishment in some instances. Jesus also demonstrated grace when capital punishment was due (John 8:1-11). The apostle Paul definitely recognized the power of the government to institute capital punishment where appropriate (Romans 13:1-7).

How should a Christian view the death penalty? First, we must remember that God has instituted capital punishment in His Word; therefore, it would be presumptuous of us to think that we could institute a higher standard. God has the highest standard of any being; He is perfect. This standard applies not only to us but to Himself. Therefore, He loves to an infinite degree, and He has mercy to an infinite degree. We also see that He has wrath to an infinite degree, and it is all maintained in a perfect balance.

Second, we must recognize that God has given government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7). It is unbiblical to claim that God opposes the death penalty in all instances. Christians should never rejoice when the death penalty is employed, but at the same time, Christians should not fight against the government’s right to execute the perpetrators of the most evil of crimes.


http://www.gotquestions.org/death-penalty.html

 

[KimPetras]

I should have reposted the sources I used for the woman being stoned. Earlier in the thread, I did post the exact passages. Next time, I promise to source it again. My apologies.

 

[Elizabeth619]

I should have reposted the sources I used for the woman being stoned. Earlier in the thread, I did post the exact passages. Next time, I promise to source it again. My apologies.

Ill go back and read it all later. No need to repost. I know what you are referencing though. I do need to log off for the day though.