Local church

[Complete_In_Him]

Ok, I'm going to try to address what you said, then I'll be done with our back and forth... it appears that you are as blindly against any church other than one that agrees with your narrow view

Thank you for the 'Christian chat'

Yes, I am against putting myself under a worldly system of religious worship. Pick a church, go to church, love your church. I don't love church, any one of them on the block, no not one. My narrow view is Christ and His gospel given to our apostle, we are begotten by this gospel, saved by grace through the faith of Christ, no water required in the commissioning of apostle Paul, or else the scripture could not say, "Christ sent me not to baptize"

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

[hornetguy]

I didn't condemn any church, I'm not sure where you got that from what I wrote. The "Church of Christ" denomination just isn't for me.

As far as instruments, that's the "Church of Christ" assumption that instruments were not used. Just because Instruments weren't mentioned in the NT doesn't mean they didn't use them. I can't understand how God would be against them when instruments were used in worship in the OT, and God not never omitted them.

I don't believe the doctrine that you must be baptized to be saved that the Church of Christ holds too, and their works based doctrine.

When the CoC says they are the only true church, I don't believe that. Sounds cultish to me.

I'm not say there isn't any real Christians in the donomination, I'm not say you aren't a Christian because you go there.

I must have misunderstood what you were saying then... my apologies...

I agree about the instruments... but because it was never mentioned that they were used in worship, the CofC's decided to NOT use them. I have no problem with that.. I DO have a problem with the CofC's teaching (back in the day) that it was a sin to use them. I disagree with that, and like I said, many of the CofC's have stopped that teaching, going back at least 10 years. I just disagreed with you saying that the CofC's "no instrument" policy somehow made them unscriptural, or "questionable". I don't see how God could be against their use, either, unless the instruments, or the band, becomes the focus of the worship. In my opinion, God doesn't want our worship service to become a concert.. He wants us to worship Him from our hearts... if that can be accomplished with accompaniment from a band, then, GREAT.. But the fact remains, He chose to not mention the use of them, and none of the NT writers talked about them, nor did any of the first century historians that described how the followers of Jesus worshipped. So, if there is any mandate, it's for acapella. I believe God left that up to us to decide how we want to "do" it. (worship)

Your questioning the need for baptism makes me wonder how you explain away all the scriptures that indicate it is a necessary part of the salvation process... the scriptures are pretty plain.
The CofC does not teach any kind of "works" salvation. I'm sure there are some individuals that believe works are "necessary", but the same holds true of ANY church that I've attended.

I don't know which, if any, CofC's that still think they are the only true church... I know many of them did, back in the 50's and 60's but I don't think it's a prevalent belief any more... like I've said before, I know of Baptist churches that believed the same thing, so it's not just the CofC that can be painted with that brush.... and if a "church" believes it, they are wrong.

Sorry for my "assumptions" based on your post... love ya, brother...

 

[hornetguy]

So that is pretty long, I hope it explains the passage a bit more for you Yet. I can go into the Greek if you need me too. Feel free to ask if you have further issues understanding the Scriptures.

You're a very wise woman, for a Canadian, Angela.... loved your post...

 

[hornetguy]

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Let's look at the whole thought, instead of just pulling out one verse.... Paul is addressing divisions among the believers, who were arguing, apparently about who was greater... "I was baptized by Paul.." etc...
It's very clear that he baptized at least SOME of the believers, so to say that he didn't think it was necessary is simply wrong. He's just trying to teach them that WHO baptized them was not important, because it took away from the reason for baptism.. turning it into a competition of sorts.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

So Paul saw the need to be baptized.... do you still think it's unimportant?

 

[AuntieAnt]

When you're in a courtroom, you don't see the judge paging through law books and then quoting from them verbatim to prove a point. We know that the judge is quite knowledgeable of the law and doesn't need to back up his or her words with references. When he or she speaks in authority, nobody questions the judge.

And when you go to a hospital for surgery, you don't see your doctor rifling through medical journals trying to find just the right research material to convince you he or she knows what they're doing. You put your life into the hands of that doctor because you believe they are quite educated about your medical diagnosis. That doctor is an authority on medical treatment.

Attorneys, teachers, police officers, auto mechanics, insurance salespersons, dentists, hairstylists, accountants, all those who serve you, you put complete faith in. You don't require them to quote pages of reference from any books of instruction.

But Christians are required to carry a Bible around at all times and quote references? You don't put any trust in the Spirit of the Living God in a person? Don't you believe we have the mind of Christ now and can discern truth?

Did Jesus and the disciples carry bibles around and quote from them? No, because the bible wasn't even written then. And yet some of you believe we must always quote from the bible and never get away from referencing it. We're not children in kindergarten. We can put our lesson books down and actually do the thing we were taught to do. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher, remember? We can put our lives into His hands and believe He can do a thing through us. Quoting words doesn't give you any credibility as a Christian. Actually FOLLOWING Christ will.

Please stop assuming that if you post oodles of scripture with interpretations in the Greek and Hebrew that it proves you're right about a thing. It proves nothing except that you know how to post scripture. Anyone can do that, ya know.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

words of wisdom. my faith does not stand in the wisdom of men, hornetguy, you are dishonest with God's word and His gospel. Love the doctrine of your church or love the doctrine of God. Don't get crafty with my words, I never said or implied Paul did not baptize. I said, he was not given the commission to water baptize, or else scripture could not say "For Christ sent me not to baptize", we all know the 12 apostles ministry commission included the command to water baptize. They could not speak the words "Christ sent me not to baptize", so why could Paul?

You don't believe the gospel of our ministry, the ministry of reconciliation in the dispensation of the grace of God. You add to the completed work of Christ on the cross and the gospel of the grace of God. I can hardly post, good night.

 

[hornetguy]

words of wisdom. my faith does not stand in the wisdom of men, hornetguy, you are dishonest with God's word and His gospel. Love the doctrine of your church or love the doctrine of God. Don't get crafty with my words, I never said or implied Paul did not baptize. I said, he was not given the commission to water baptize, or else scripture could not say "For Christ sent me not to baptize", we all know the 12 apostles ministry commission included the command to water baptize. They could not speak the words "Christ sent me not to baptize", so why could Paul?

You don't believe the gospel of our ministry, the ministry of reconciliation in the dispensation of the grace of God. You add to the completed work of Christ on the cross and the gospel of the grace of God. I can hardly post, good night.

I thought I already answered your accusations, with scripture.. not my opinions. Paul could, and did make that statement because of the discussion he was involved in.. re-read those scriptures I posted if you don't believe me.

Accusing me of not believing in the salvation of believers through the grace of God? My goodness, you are being deliberately obtuse, aren't you?

 

[directline2iam]

Where two or three gather together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. An assembly of two people. Imagine that!

 

[Bookends]

I must have misunderstood what you were saying then... my apologies...

I agree about the instruments... but because it was never mentioned that they were used in worship, the CofC's decided to NOT use them. I have no problem with that.. I DO have a problem with the CofC's teaching (back in the day) that it was a sin to use them. I disagree with that, and like I said, many of the CofC's have stopped that teaching, going back at least 10 years. I just disagreed with you saying that the CofC's "no instrument" policy somehow made them unscriptural, or "questionable". I don't see how God could be against their use, either, unless the instruments, or the band, becomes the focus of the worship. In my opinion, God doesn't want our worship service to become a concert.. He wants us to worship Him from our hearts... if that can be accomplished with accompaniment from a band, then, GREAT.. But the fact remains, He chose to not mention the use of them, and none of the NT writers talked about them, nor did any of the first century historians that described how the followers of Jesus worshipped. So, if there is any mandate, it's for acapella. I believe God left that up to us to decide how we want to "do" it. (worship)

Your questioning the need for baptism makes me wonder how you explain away all the scriptures that indicate it is a necessary part of the salvation process... the scriptures are pretty plain.
The CofC does not teach any kind of "works" salvation. I'm sure there are some individuals that believe works are "necessary", but the same holds true of ANY church that I've attended.

I don't know which, if any, CofC's that still think they are the only true church... I know many of them did, back in the 50's and 60's but I don't think it's a prevalent belief any more... like I've said before, I know of Baptist churches that believed the same thing, so it's not just the CofC that can be painted with that brush.... and if a "church" believes it, they are wrong.

Sorry for my "assumptions" based on your post... love ya, brother...

Baptism of Christ is the only necessary component for salvation. It is my belief that water baptism is an outward expression of our inward reality.

Was the thief on the cross at Jesus' crucifixion ever water baptized? no, but Jesus told him that that day he'd be in paradise with Him.

And BTW, I love you too, brother!

 

[Persuaded]

Heb. 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one onother: and so much more, as ye see the day approaching.


Eph.3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughtout all ages, world without end. Amen.


I have been here a short time and have read very few post. But it seems that some are not members of nor even attend a local church.

I believe that the two verses I quoted teach us that we should not only attend a local church, but should be a member. ie Be a part of it's ministry, support with our money, learn from others, teach others, fellowship with other.

This seems to be God's plan for us to glorify Him.

How does one justify not doing what these verses clealy teach?

When I started this thread a few days ago, I had no idea that I would stir up such anger toward the Lord's local churches and that we who follow the command to be a part of a local church would be attacked as wicked and even foolish.
There are those who have legitimate reasons because of physical conditions, other have only offered excuses.

I have pointed out that it is not the number or the place that is important.
Matt. 28: 19,20 commands us to go into every nation and make disciples, to teach them and to baptism them.
How many of you, who are not a part of a local church, following this commandment?
How do you justify the fact that you disobey our Lord.

There are many things that we may disagree on, but why are those who demonize the churches of the living God allowed to continue to be a part of this forum?

 

[Yet]

So you would have kicked Paul out for talking for hours?

"And a young man named Eutychus, sitting at the window, sank into a deep sleep as Paul talked still longer. And being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead." Acts 20:9 ESV

Other versions say "Paul talked on and on." Sounds like a Biblical example of a monologue to me! Mind you, I would gladly trade places with poor Eutychus, and hope that taking notes, as I like to do, would keep me awake during this monologue.

I do hope you are reading the same Bible as I am though! If Acts 20:9 is not in your Bible, then I apologize!

As for tithes, I've been in many different churches since I was saved 35 years ago. I remember one non-denom where the pastor constantly preached on tithes. It was literally my first church, and it scared me to death. (Of course, that was coupled with preaching that you can lose your salvation!) It took me a lot of Bible reading to realize that tithes are NOT for NT Christians. But cheerful giving is! So I went from being condemned and obligated to being blessed to give a large chunk of money to the church I go to. (And God has blessed us beyond measure - and not just financially!)

I've been to three different Baptist churches and conventions in the last 10 years. None of them asked for tithes. All of them recognized baptisms from other churches. In fact, the only thing the pastor in the last church I was in ever said about giving, once was "this church is blessed beyond any church I have ever attended or pastored in." That means everyone gave freely, and yes there were some very well to do folk in that church.

But even my little inner city Baptist church never preaches on tithing and it is doing well financially. We actually had a surplus last year. And money is never even talked about from the pulpit. By the way, my current church had our pastor go on sick leave at the end of last June. We had congregation members preach every Sunday for 5 months. And they were all fabulous sermons. Of course, many members are retired pastors, or serving in ministry full time. But, I believe we heard from God.

And what you forget, is the worship group ministers too - the songs need to be from God and glorify God. The people that serve in Sunday School also are serving - and those who prepare coffee, the ushers and the midweek events also are ministering. I think that is what your passages are talking about. A church does need to have the support and the service of all the members. But having a lead pastor to carefully prepare the sermons, and to lead the congregation in a direction that is agreed upon, is also Bibical.

So if the pastor does all the sermonizing every Sunday, which their is no evidence in the bible, when are the scriptures I point to find time to be fulfilled. You are separating scripture from scripture. You are saying Pauls discourse had no room for questions and dialogue. I don't think so. Paul was preaching the gospel. We're talking apples and oranges. The established assembly allowed every member to minister. The blindness on your part is frightening. And s goes the apostasy into the arms of the one world religion.
In your assembly, does every one face each other and use their functions according to the instructions in the word of God?

 

[Yet]

When I started this thread a few days ago, I had no idea that I would stir up such anger toward the Lord's local churches and that we who follow the command to be a part of a local church would be attacked as wicked and even foolish.
There are those who have legitimate reasons because of physical conditions, other have only offered excuses.

I have pointed out that it is not the number or the place that is important.
Matt. 28: 19,20 commands us to go into every nation and make disciples, to teach them and to baptism them.
How many of you, who are not a part of a local church, following this commandment?
How do you justify the fact that you disobey our Lord.

There are many things that we may disagree on, but why are those who demonize the churches of the living God allowed to continue to be a part of this forum?

How do YOU justify disobeying the Lord? I already proved you are with the word that you will NOT acknowledge.

You have not proved that I am. My God commands me to 1Cor:5:11 ...you must NOT ASSOCIATE with anyone who claims to be a brother....but is GREEDY, covetious, (for ten percent of your gross) or an extortioner, swindler. Lies to gain money. Threatens curses to gain money. Devours widows houses.

You also judge me falsely again. I am not demonizing the ecclesia of God. I'm trying to wake them up to the hirelings and wolves that are in control. The apostasy that your NT warns about over and over and over again. But you refuse to see it. Even the word of God you refuse to see. Blind guides to the blind.
God is saying to the corrupt shepherds with their mouths full of mutton and clothed in the wool 'LET MY PEOPLE GO'!

Now I beseech you brothers, Mark them that cause divisions(clerical) seditions: rebellion against God, and offences (obstacles)contrary to the doctrine which you have learned. AVOID THEM. For they serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly. By lofty sermons and fair speeches THEY DECIEVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE (for fun and financial profit and ego). Romans 16:11

Walter Martin, Doctor. So the warning of God is against people in the church in positions of leadership and respect. Who will draw disciples after themselves, whose allegiance is NOT to Christ, but to that exalted person. And they will draw the believers after themselves from within the church so that there is no accountability for what they say. (For they won't search the scriptures to see if those things be so).

Woe to the shepherds that feed themselves. Ezekiel 34:2

 

[Persuaded]

How do YOU justify disobeying the Lord? I already proved you are with the word that you will NOT acknowledge.

You have not proved that I am. My God commands me to 1Cor:5:11 ...you must NOT ASSOCIATE with anyone who claims to be a brother....but is GREEDY, covetious, (for ten percent of your gross) or an extortioner, swindler. Lies to gain money. Threatens curses to gain money. Devours widows houses.

You also judge me falsely again. I am not demonizing the ecclesia of God. I'm trying to wake them up to the hirelings and wolves that are in control. The apostasy that your NT warns about over and over and over again. But you refuse to see it. Even the word of God you refuse to see. Blind guides to the blind.
God is saying to the corrupt shepherds with their mouths full of mutton and clothed in the wool 'LET MY PEOPLE GO'!

Now I beseech you brothers, Mark them that cause divisions(clerical) seditions: rebellion against God, and offences (obstacles)contrary to the doctrine which you have learned. AVOID THEM. For they serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly. By lofty sermons and fair speeches THEY DECIEVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE (for fun and financial profit and ego). Romans 16:11

Walter Martin, Doctor. So the warning of God is against people in the church in positions of leadership and respect. Who will draw disciples after themselves, whose allegiance is NOT to Christ, but to that exalted person. And they will draw the believers after themselves from within the church so that there is no accountability for what they say. (For they won't search the scriptures to see if those things be so).

Woe to the shepherds that feed themselves. Ezekiel 34:2

I do not disobey my Lord.
How do you justify disobeying Matt. 28:19,20.
You justify yourself by a false and perverted understanding of the Scripture.
You demonize and condemn anyone and everyone who will not buy into your false teaching, who will not praise you as the all knowing anointed one who is to lead us foolish, ignorant Christians to the truth.
You demonize and condemn churches and pastors that you have never met or know anything about.
There are religious assemblies, notice I did not call them churches, and evil men, notice I did not call them pastors, That claime to be churches and pastors.
You look at these false teachers and assemblies and decide all that true churches and honorable pastors are just as evil.
You are ignorgant of the truth of the Scripture and I can not understand why the moderators of this forum allow you to continue to spew out your hate and lies about churches, pastors, and Christians that are simple following the Lord's command to assemble, pray, teach, study, learn and fellowship together.

May God have mercy on you,

 

[Nikki84]

When you're in a courtroom, you don't see the judge paging through law books and then quoting from them verbatim to prove a point. We know that the judge is quite knowledgeable of the law and doesn't need to back up his or her words with references. When he or she speaks in authority, nobody questions the judge.

And when you go to a hospital for surgery, you don't see your doctor rifling through medical journals trying to find just the right research material to convince you he or she knows what they're doing. You put your life into the hands of that doctor because you believe they are quite educated about your medical diagnosis. That doctor is an authority on medical treatment.

Attorneys, teachers, police officers, auto mechanics, insurance salespersons, dentists, hairstylists, accountants, all those who serve you, you put complete faith in. You don't require them to quote pages of reference from any books of instruction.

But Christians are required to carry a Bible around at all times and quote references? You don't put any trust in the Spirit of the Living God in a person? Don't you believe we have the mind of Christ now and can discern truth?

Did Jesus and the disciples carry bibles around and quote from them? No, because the bible wasn't even written then. And yet some of you believe we must always quote from the bible and never get away from referencing it. We're not children in kindergarten. We can put our lesson books down and actually do the thing we were taught to do. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher, remember? We can put our lives into His hands and believe He can do a thing through us. Quoting words doesn't give you any credibility as a Christian. Actually FOLLOWING Christ will.

Please stop assuming that if you post oodles of scripture with interpretations in the Greek and Hebrew that it proves you're right about a thing. It proves nothing except that you know how to post scripture. Anyone can do that, ya know.

Some people get carried away with the bible to the point of idolatry. They say things like "If it ain't in the bible, it ain't true" Even the apostle John admits at the end of his gospel that not everything was written down

 

[BeyondET]

Some people get carried away with the bible to the point of idolatry. They say things like "If it ain't in the bible, it ain't true" Even the apostle John admits at the end of his gospel that not everything was written down

That's a wise statement if we look at the Pharisees why did they have Jesus killed because the things Jesus teached on were not written. Fear in believing in the unknown can stop people in their tracks.

 

[Chuckt]

Why do you keep judging me? If I wanted to be comfortable and lazy and not take all the insults here, I'd go find a pew to sleep in. Why would you have me compromise God's word? I want to be part of a fellowship based on the NT. What's so wrong about that that? What is my crime?

Im sorry. What were the 2 questions you had for me? I'm trying to keep up with everyone's input. My head is spinning. Thanks.

I believe God's original request to Pharaoh was to let his people go into the wilderness and worship.
They had idolatry. They fell away. They were swallowed up by the earth and snakes bit them. They wandered in the wilderness for forty years and only Joshua, Caleb and their children were allowed to enter into the promised land.

They were told to go. Their congregation wasn't perfect and everyone knows a little more than the next one.
Had they all not gone because they were not perfect then it would have been a very short story.

 

[Chuckt]

Here's the deal. If you believe that going to church, paying tithes, sitting in the pew staring at the back of someone's head for 40 minutes while listening to a sermon then talk football at the end of the service is what God set forth. Then stay with it. Please do not ever look at the scriptures I mentioned and then you'll be happy. Just listen to your 'pastor', don't ever question anything he says or teaches. And don't ever search the word of God to see if what he is doing and saying is 'gospel'. Just leave your bible at home and go with the traditions of men. Be happy, happy, happy. Pass the coolade please.

What you are doing is not making a difference in the lives of other believers.
You are not supporting missionaries or people who need to learn about Christ in the local church.
You aren't worshipping God in the church.
And they aren't making a difference in your life.
I think that it is also very difficult that you can think that you can do the job alone and be a lone ranger because lone rangers can be outnumbered.
There are people with real needs who need real help that you are neglecting and they are your brothers and sisters if you are a Christian.

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.

 

[Chuckt]

It dawns on me. IRL, I have no idea why people don't go to church who claim they are believers. I have no idea because they're claiming that while hiding from believers by avoiding fellowship. (Maybe they hang out in bars saying this stuff, since I have a vague memory of talking the talk without walking the walk way back in my stoner days. And there were a few of us doing that together.)

BUT this isn't real life, (sort of), and I do see some who won't go to church. I also see what they all have in common:
1. They alone have the truth.

2. No church is good enough. Something is wrong with it, and there simply isn't anyone else around in a 500 mile radius who also has the truth to fellowship with.

3. They argue constantly about how good they are and how bad everyone else is, while hoisting up the "I speak for God" banner.

4. They spend way too much time telling how they're protecting the truth, protecting others from bullies, not letting babes in Christ be swayed by false stuff, or doing anything at all that's helpful.

From the standpoint that gathering together is to edify each other and be edified, I tend to think God is kind that he gets them to avoid church -- at least to those who want to fellowship. We can hear God above the fangless roar that way.

I lived in one town and walked to a lot of the churches.
Out of about 30 churches, only four taught that you had to be born again.
Out of those four churches, one taught you could lose your salvation and made you wear a uniform to be a Christian.
The majority of those churches only taught two verses of the Bible on Sunday and didn't have much church more than one day a week so in reality, their churches were pretty much closed.
The one I went to taught five or ten verses on Sunday or more but they were legalistic and weren't suitable for bringing people in because they were only going to say things against them instead of love them and be a little understanding.
There was another church in town that my stepsister invited us to where it was pandemonium and confusion and my family walked away from church for probably years because it was offensive and that church doesn't exist today.
There was one other church that claimed to be Christian but they had four elders preaching up in front of people in t-shirts with a lot of problems and divided from the local church.
I remember the pastor of another church coming to our house and pretty much telling us he didn't believe but he wanted us to come out to which I said, "no".

And when I went door to door with another brother and did witnessing, I recognized some of these people and none of them recognized the gospel or identified themselves as Christians.

 

[Chuckt]

Some people get carried away with the bible to the point of idolatry. They say things like "If it ain't in the bible, it ain't true" Even the apostle John admits at the end of his gospel that not everything was written down

But what was unimportant wasn't written down or else it would have been written down.

 

[Persuaded]

I lived in one town and walked to a lot of the churches.
Out of about 30 churches, only four taught that you had to be born again.
Out of those four churches, one taught you could lose your salvation and made you wear a uniform to be a Christian.
The majority of those churches only taught two verses of the Bible on Sunday and didn't have much church more than one day a week so in reality, their churches were pretty much closed.
The one I went to taught five or ten verses on Sunday or more but they were legalistic and weren't suitable for bringing people in because they were only going to say things against them instead of love them and be a little understanding.
There was another church in town that my stepsister invited us to where it was pandemonium and confusion and my family walked away from church for probably years because it was offensive and that church doesn't exist today.
There was one other church that claimed to be Christian but they had four elders preaching up in front of people in t-shirts with a lot of problems and divided from the local church.
I remember the pastor of another church coming to our house and pretty much telling us he didn't believe but he wanted us to come out to which I said, "no".

And when I went door to door with another brother and did witnessing, I recognized some of these people and none of them recognized the gospel or identified themselves as Christians.

Your situation is not unique, and You have my prayer.
In many cities, this has become the norm.
This should show us that we are indeed in the last days.
But that does not justify demonizing all churches and pastor as some do.