Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

FreeNChrist · Mar 20, 2016

We don't don't believe it because we are "spiritual" in nature, but because we are partakers of the divine nature by the indwelling presence of the divine One, Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:4)

And that you would think you are saved by means of your conduct and not by Jesus Christ, is nothing more than that age old heresy of Pelagianism. There's nothing new under the Sun, nothing at all.

PeterJens · Mar 20, 2016

A simple example of lack of obedience was the Pharisees.

Jesus called them
Hypocrites. lovers of money, full of greed and self indulgence, rejected God’s purpose for themselves, you neglect justice and the love of God, were sneering at Jesus, they have have taken away the key to knowledge, full of all kinds of wickedness, on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean, they are is a thiefs and a robbers of those in the kingdom.

If this is the definition of having an unclean heart, a clean heart is full of love and purity. The difference is repentance and sorting out the motivations within.

It appears many feel this is works of the flesh and they would rather leave sin in their hearts and blame God for not cleansing them.

JaumeJ · Mar 20, 2016

When step out in faith, and God hears us, He will work through any one of us. It is only after a miracle has occurred through a servant being an instrument of His will that one realizes something miraculous has occurred. Those who hav experienced this know, and know the wonderment of God's using a willing soul.

nu2see · Mar 20, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Some confusion may result from not understanding
who does the keeping.
Maybe instead of emphasizing what the above said
about how WE live our live's, shift the focus on to Jesus,
and how He lived HIS life.

JESUS lived the perfect life,
and any righteousnes WE have is GIVEN to us
by believing in Him.

Maybe it should be broadened to say that NOTHING
in us, apart from Christ, has any bearing
on how we keep salvation,
because WE don't keep.....rather, we are KEPT!
By the power of God.....1Pet.1:5

Budman · Mar 20, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

*sigh*

The gnostics believed they were spiritual by their own nature. Christians, however, have the nature of Christ in us. It's His nature that makes us holy, righteous, and perfect.

Grace777x70 · Mar 20, 2016

think I've demonstrated quite clearly that some believe exactly what the Christian gnostics believed. Let me share with you what someone said recently compared to what Christian gnostics believed.

CC member: "how we live our lives has no bearing on whether or not we keep our salvation ... We are holy, righteous, and sinless because that is what He is, and what His nature in us proclaims."

Christian gnostics: "[the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature."

FreeNChrist said:

Well said....There is a vast difference between what happened to us by being in Christ and relying on Him totally and then "believing" in His righteousness and nature that is now in our new creation In Christ - created in righteousness and holiness....and what the gnostics believed apart from God.

I can see where the natural mind would equate this to some old gnostic concept. The things of God are foolishness to the natural mind.

We'll keep preaching and teaching the word of the gospel of the grace of Christ until the soil of people's hearts are ready to receive it.

Grace777x70 · Mar 20, 2016

Budman said:

Amen...well said. How anyone can confuse the difference between the two is mind-boggling to me. Either it is all Christ...or it is a works-based gospel ( which is no gospel at all ).

His life in us does bear fruit - but it is His fruit and life......not "our" own works that make us righteous.

As I have seen you say in the past - "Anything you add onto the end of ...we are saved by grace through faith alone....BUT "..is NOT the gospel of the grace of Christ. "

Gr8grace · Mar 20, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

think I've demonstrated quite clearly that some believe exactly what the Christian gnostics believed. Let me share with you what someone said recently compared to what Christian gnostics believed.

CC member: "how we live our lives has no bearing on whether or not we keep our salvation ... We are holy, righteous, and sinless because that is what He is, and what His nature in us proclaims."

Christian gnostics: "[the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature."

Well said....There is a vast difference between what happened to us by being in Christ and relying on Him totally and then "believing" in His righteousness and nature that is now in our new creation In Christ - created in righteousness and holiness....and what the gnostics believed apart from God.

I can see where the natural mind would equate this to some old gnostic concept. The things of God are foolishness to the natural mind.

We'll keep preaching and teaching the word of the gospel of the grace of Christ until the soil of people's hearts are ready to receive it.

The Irony also Grace777. The Gnostics believed that they were spiritual beings apart from God. In and of themselves they thought they were spiritual.

And what does religion do? It teaches that spirituality and salvation is in and of the creature. And not the Creator.

Grace777x70 · Mar 20, 2016

Gr8grace said:

I hear ya!...religion likes to throw in certain words to "Christianize" what they are saying - words like Jesus, God, Spirit..etc....and then they use scripture which invariably is out of context.

These works-based D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness are in reality denying the Lord and His perfect sacrifice purchased by His blood and life for us.

I think we all agree what the "fruit of righteousness" should look like - where the grace-believers and the works-based believers deviate is "how" this is achieved.

We believe we are saved by grace through faith in Christ's perfect work alone. Right believing in the finished work of Christ will transform us outwardly to reflect what is already done in our inner man in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. His life saves us! - from start to finish!

Galatians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

HeRoseFromTheDead · Mar 20, 2016

Gr8grace said:

No they didn't believe that. They believed that they were part of the godhead; that's the gnosis that they thought saved them. They believed that they had become one with grace through a mysterious spiritual union. They believed grace was a spiritual substance just like "Grace Believers" believe grace is a person with whom they are united. They identified only with their spiritual nature just like "Grace Believers" only identify with the inner spiritual man. They believe the spiritual nature is what saves them (eternal life is eternal, spiritual circumcision can't be undone, yada, yada, yada...) because it can't be corrupted by the material world.

PeterJens · Mar 20, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

This is a polarised straw man argument.
Either it is all spiritual from above or it is man made.

This is like saying I believe my car is the only version in existance and there are no other versions.
As has been stated this is exactly a gnostic notion. Anything human corrupts the whole process.

So all you have to prove is if someone says a human is involved they are heretical. Unfortunately the bible is full of human interaction and failure, which God still overcomes and uses.

All the spiritual situations in the new testament are echoed in the old testament. Jesus is the fulfillment or the final cornerstone of the testimony of God to the world regarding salvation. It implies nothing was wrong with this testimony and was not replaced, but fulfilled bringing heaven to earth in the form of Gods people.

The problem with the total God approach is people are very much impure vessels with lots of unresolved issues which lie around from His people to deal with. For instance part of coming to faith is repenting, recognising sin, turning from it and asking Jesus to forgive and set us free. The idea Jesus does it all without the need to repent or believe or walk in the Spirit, seems ludicrous. The problem is people are called to choose and walk, so this is 100% a distraction from this, suggesting they have already arrived and staying where they are is what God wants.

To make it clearer, God sends messages through His word, through preachers and teachers, through prophets which He expects people to listen to and put it into action. This is obviously people responding not Jesus just doing.

So the language of it is all Jesus denies the very nature of our experience and the walk.

But the language implies to even express this is heresy and means you are not a Christian. This is what they call intimidation a subject that simply cannot be discussed for fear of being excluded from the group. So obviously people never discuss this though it is the most obvious failure in the whole construct. It also gives the leaders the power to call out unbelievers when they actually have no authority to do so.

FreeNChrist · Mar 20, 2016

What a mess.

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Strike one.

Christians are merely vessels, containers of the divine...never does the vessel become its contents.

Strike two.

We believe we have become one with Christ through being united with Him.

"But whoever is united with the Lord is one with Him in spirit." 1 Cor 6:17

Strike three.

Grace is not a "substance".

Yes we believe we are spiritually united with Christ, because our Bible tells us so.

Yes, we take our identity from the One we are identified with, Jesus Christ. Just like those without Christ take their identity from "the one who works in the children of disobedience", who they are identified with.

We do not believe our spiritual nature saves us, we believe Jesus Christ saves us.

Eternal life, obviously, is eternal.

You're out.

Chuckt · Mar 20, 2016

PeterJens said:

Isaiah 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

If we have to work for salvation, we have to bear our own iniquities.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."-John 3:16

"As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12)

"...children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." John 1:13

Jesus said,"Verily, Verily I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, *Hath* everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."-John 5:24

It doesn't say,'might have' or 'could have'.. It says,"*hath*" everlasting life.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him."-John 3:36

"WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."- 1 John 5:13

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the son of God."-I John 5:13

"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"-I John 5:5

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.:"-John 11:25

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die, Believeth thou this?"-John 11:26

John 20:31

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."-Eph. 2:8-9

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Romans 4:5)

"...it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."-I Corinthians 1:21

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of god by faith:"-Philippians 3:9

"In {Him} whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:"-Colossians 1:14

"..we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that *BELIEVE*."-I Timothy 4:10b

some teach baptism saves. some teach that works save. it is interesting that the Bible says,'..for by faith ye stand."-II Cor. 1:24

"..if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins."-John 8:24

"As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me."-Psalm 55:16

"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."-Gen. 6:8

“Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.”-Habakkuk 2:4

JaumeJ · Mar 20, 2016

Even the unclean spirits obeyed Jesus Christ; it is amazing how many who claim to believe Jesus teach others that grace is to be interpreted that we need not obey Him. To disobey God is sin.......yes, even fo those who claim to not nedd be obedient.

PeterJens · Mar 20, 2016

Chuckt said:

Work for salvation. The discussion here is simple. Do people have to do anything in response to Jesus?
Repent and believe. Now this is repent in a Jewish sense not the extreme grace version.
Jesus talked about following, cleansing your heart, walking in purity and righteousness.

The argument is saying an athlete who runs in a race does not have to train or do anything to win. They have already won.

To get away with this idea the details of the race are reduced to a minimum and the actual victory does not involve the believer it is the substitute who has done everything. The only problem is the runner to win has to be an athlete, but this is done by magically making them an athlete and presenting them fully finished at the end of the race.

Now no race we know of works like this or even has these kinds of rules. It is trying to get around the gap between the non-athlete and the free entry to the race with training conditions. To win the race is a partnership between the athlete and the trainer. This is why the gnostic version is being highlighted because it assumes success without the means to deliver it.

Chuckt · Mar 20, 2016

PeterJens said:

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus is able to save me from the guttermost to the uttermost. Jesus is the means to deliver this great salvation.

All the repentance I need to do is in that word "believe".

Grace777x70 · Mar 20, 2016

Chuckt said:

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus is able to save me from the guttermost to the uttermost. Jesus is the means to deliver this great salvation.

All the repentance I need to do is in that word "believe".[/QUOTE]

Amen...and then there will be "fruits of repentance".....the "fruit" is not the "root" of repentance ..repentance is changing our minds to believe in the finished work of Christ...then His life in us transforms our outward behavior to reflect our new nature in side of us..in our new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness.

Works-based religions get this mixed up constantly. They think that it's them doing the deeds to make themselves righteous. This is having the "cart before the horse."

Chuckt · Mar 20, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Chuckt said:

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus is able to save me from the guttermost to the uttermost. Jesus is the means to deliver this great salvation.

All the repentance I need to do is in that word "believe".[/QUOTE]

Amen...and then there will be "fruits of repentance".....the "fruit" is not the "root" of repentance ..repentance is changing our minds to believe in the finished work of Christ...then His life in us transforms our outward behavior to reflect our new nature in side of us..in our new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness.

Works-based religions get this mixed up constantly. They think that it's them doing the deeds to make themselves righteous. This is having the "cart before the horse."

Calvinists put works before salvation. You need salvation / regeneration before you can do work.

roaringkitten · Mar 20, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

What you have described(which I put in BOLD) is NEW AGE(regardless if what you claimed in this post is really gnostic or not). Where did any grace believer state we are part of the godhead? We identify with the nature of Christ as the Bible clearly teaches(which was well explained by FreeNChrist in post #592). You keep trying to lump us with the enemy and it is very clear you know nothing about what grace believers believe!(ie: explained more in post #567) Not to mention you are confused about salvation!

PeterJens · Mar 20, 2016

Chuckt said:

The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!
Mark 1:15

Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.
Mat 3:2

I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
Luke 13:5

This is basic following of Christ yet you are denying it. Sin is the problem in the world which is the fruit of our lack of relationship with God.

Jesus has removed the veil, so we can enter and speak to the Father.

Belief by itself is what demons have, belief that Jesus is who he said he is. If you do not repent, do not accept His forgiveness for your sins and commit your ways to follow Him, nothing has any effect.

Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

FreeNChrist

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Gr8grace

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

FreeNChrist

Guest

Chuckt

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Chuckt

Guest

Banned

Chuckt

Guest

roaringkitten

Guest

Banned