Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[PeterJens]

The language of twisting an interpretation is actually just propoganda. Words are always summaries of concepts and can mean different things to different audiences. What only has real meaning is when that context is consistent.

What is worrying is when a whole new theological perspective takes language that has clear definitions and redefines them without clarity, with the primary aim to create the impression it is a prior distortion which is now being corrected.

This is such a clear attempt to justify a position that if declared openly cannot be defended.

The main problem with new theology is it has not gone through the rigorous theological investigation and debate to make sure the ideas actually add up.

The danger is just under lining hypocracy, while claiming this is just exercising forgiveness for embedded and unresolved sin.
All faiths and positions love to create the images of success while actually failing to resolve anything.

The positions of various orthodox christian societies testify to this reality, centering around marriage and divorce.
Most christian groups are very naive and talk about such issues as if you can talk morality and not face marriage and family breakdown, and the problems of affairs and people just living with each other.

Now if church groups simply ignore such problems, then they are just ignoring righteousness and sin. It is very basic, but facing God and hard choices are were the rubber hits the tarmac. This is not legalism, it is just to you believe honouring relationship commitments or is it just wishy washy words and claims, but no backbone.

 

[PeterJens]

We are all responsible for what we do with our bodies....and we should be repenting constantly as we find new truths concerning the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus and our loving Father. True grace-believers repent constantly and love doing it!

This is one of the strangest quotes I have read. "repent constantly" is not a phrase that can be found in scripture anywhere. If this is the real reality you would expect that the apostles and first believers walked in they would write about it. It is just not their. Constantly changing your mind implies no fixed understanding of anything. And one loves changing ones mind? I never knew the idea of knowing Christ meant such a lack of knowledge and understanding. It suggests to me a completely out of control way of thinking and being.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is one of the strangest quotes I have read. "repent constantly" is not a phrase that can be found in scripture anywhere. If this is the real reality you would expect that the apostles and first believers walked in they would write about it. It is just not their. Constantly changing your mind implies no fixed understanding of anything. And one loves changing ones mind? I never knew the idea of knowing Christ meant such a lack of knowledge and understanding. It suggests to me a completely out of control way of thinking and being.

It makes perfect sense to "grace believers" because they have redefined the word repentance to mean undoing the sin of being sin-conscious by focusing on their identity in Christ. That's basically their walk. Obedience is their version of repentance; and so it was with the gnostics.

"The ultimate end of all Gnosis is metanoia, or repentance, the undoing of the sin of material existence and the return to the Pleroma [i.e., spiritual perfection]" by focusing on their spiritual identity.

 

[posthuman]

i sure like the threads where we talk about Jesus much better than the ones where we talk about each other.

 

[posthuman]

This is one of the strangest quotes I have read. "repent constantly" is not a phrase that can be found in scripture anywhere.

what i thought of when i read that, was Christ's injunction that to be His disciple we must daily take up our cross.
does that perspective shed any light?

 

[Grace777x70]

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

Doing righteous deeds because Christ has made us righteous is what the true Christian life entails.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness comes to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

The Spirit of the Lord transforms as when we look at Christ as in a mirror - we see ourselves reflected back as we are in Him.

Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells..

 

[posthuman]

It makes perfect sense to "grace believers" because they have redefined the word repentance to mean undoing the sin of being sin-conscious by focusing on their identity in Christ.

the gain in becoming and remaining aware of your identity in Christ is not 'losing consciousness of sin' -- it is to influence us to, as the epistles put it, 'walk worthy of the high calling to which we have been called.' this is the goal also of Paul's reminding us in Romans 6 that we have been crucified with Christ - that we should be dead to sin. more - that we are dead to sin, so we should act like it.
knowing this then, and recognizing sin and wickedness as a thing that is dead to us, we should pass it by, and not spoil ourselves with it, but instead be, as He has called us, alive to God through Christ Jesus. turning our eyes away from sin and death, and toward life, is repentance. it is not closing our eyes - but turning them away.
so consciousness of who we are in Christ - according to what He has said and promised, as we believe Him - engenders obedience to the good works that we are called to, and turning away from evil, which is repentance, and beside all these outward things, it engenders joy and thanksgiving - which the scripture says we should always be full of!

do you recognize that advantage?

 

[jasonj]

Acts 2:38,"Repent, and be baptized...as a result of the remission of sins." "for" is in the resultant sense. repent and be baptized as a result of being saved

Acts 2:38 may be translated,"Be baptized because of the remission of sins"-Dr. Charles Ryrie

The Preposition "EIS" may be translated "because of" and it is translated that way in Matthew 12:41 and Luke 11:42

repentance is essential. Jesus died because until we accept Him, His teachings and ways, we aren't able to repent. no one under law can repent, that's why we need Jesus death, and also resurrection. a man under law is already condemned, when we see this, and accept what Jesus has already said to all who believe in Him, repentance is understood. changing your thinking because you are not under law through the atonement. to say sin is ok is not correct, to point to sin in others isn't either. to argue over the principles of the Law, is not correct. The correct is Jesus. no one else. His purpose is to represent us under law = why he died. and Also our new nature that follows Him and forgets the condemnation under Law. if we hold to sin is what we do, we are deceived, it is how we think, if we think enough we will do. either sinful thoughts or Jesus trhoughts...his thinking is found in His words taken by faith, this is repentance. you are not under Law, in Christ go and sin no more because he died to remove death from your future. he owns the redeemed.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

the gain in becoming and remaining aware of your identity in Christ is not 'losing consciousness of sin' -- it is to influence us to, as the epistles put it, 'walk worthy of the high calling to which we have been called.' this is the goal also of Paul's reminding us in Romans 6 that we have been crucified with Christ - that we should be dead to sin. more - that we are dead to sin, so we should act like it.
knowing this then, and recognizing sin and wickedness as a thing that is dead to us, we should pass it by, and not spoil ourselves with it, but instead be, as He has called us, alive to God through Christ Jesus. turning our eyes away from sin and death, and toward life, is repentance. it is not closing our eyes - but turning them away.
so consciousness of who we are in Christ - according to what He has said and promised, as we believe Him - engenders obedience to the good works that we are called to, and turning away from evil, which is repentance, and beside all these outward things, it engenders joy and thanksgiving - which the scripture says we should always be full of!

do you recognize that advantage?

I see no advantage to focusing on one's identity. I focus on who I am in > Christ. There is eternal security there from GOD's wrath. There is absolutely no security in one's identity, whatever that means anyways. It sounds like post-modern relativism where one's identity is one's truth. I can see that coming from the Word of Faith crowd - name your identity and claim it.

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus Himself shows us the pattern...we "repent" ( change our mind - our way of thinking ) by turning from depending on ourselves to relying totally on what the God has done in the gospel of the grace Of Christ.


Mark 1:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

[SUP]15 [/SUP] and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."


Yes, the grace of God is conditional.....one must believe...( this is where repentance comes in before we believe as we realize our need of Him)

There is a process...first "listen to the message of truth"...then "believe" ..then we are "sealed" by the Holy Spirit in our inner man as the Lord becomes one with our spirit

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,



Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

 

[PeterJens]

what i thought of when i read that, was Christ's injunction that to be His disciple we must daily take up our cross.
does that perspective shed any light?

This does not help because the symbolic language is different. I understand the belief to want to say you have arrived, to split ones experience of Christ, but my interactions show the emphasis of interest is on power, miracles, authority, dominance, cleansing the body, wealth, health.

The core ideas of love, humblessness, repentance, purity, righteousness and getting to know Christ through His dedication and suffering are not of any interest, rather it is an alien landscape.

Jesus was clear. "My sheep hear my voice and listen to me." Jesus was never into odd lenses or difficult conclusions.
He was all about truth, reality, simple open honest relationships from the heart, were your yes is yes and your no is no.

Working with the limitations of the life we have and lead is where he walks. Now if I am called evil for sharing this, or stupid or insane, then obviously I am talking to the wrong people, and that fine by me. God bless you.

 

[posthuman]

I see no advantage to focusing on one's identity. I focus on who I am in > Christ. There is eternal security there from GOD's wrath. There is absolutely no security in one's identity, whatever that means anyways. It sounds like post-modern relativism where one's identity is one's truth. I can see that coming from the Word of Faith crowd - name your identity and claim it.

the thing is, it's no longer i who live, but Christ who lives through me.
so if i remember who He says i am in Him .. who am i focusing on?

It sounds like post-modern relativism where one's identity is one's truth.

if the scripture says you are a new creation - and that is your identity, according to the Word - isn't that your truth?
we believe in things that we don't necessarily see -- that's faith (Hebrews 11:1) -- don't you agree?

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus Himself shows us the pattern...we "repent" ( change our mind - our way of thinking ) by turning from depending on ourselves to relying totally on what the God has done in the gospel of the grace Of Christ.

1400 years of sacrificing animals for sin, to pay the price to forgive sins, after the sin is recognised, people repent of the action and offer a sacrifice for forgiveness of the sin.

The idea of just changing ones mind rather than actually facing the problem of sin, is completely devaluing what sin and righteousness actually are.

The mission of John the Baptist was to emphasis the need to walk in obedience to Gods laws and to get yourself right with God, and repent of the sin in your life.

Now here is a "christian" movement claiming the very ministry sent to announce Christs message of "good news" was actually a lie. I would suggest it is this new definition is a lie and the people who push it heretics.

And why do I say that? Because John the Baptist was the first person to be born with the Holy Spirit in his life from birth.
He was Gods messenger, or announcer of the final messenger of the Kingdom of God and its ultimate sacrifice.

So if John the Baptist got it wrong so did God. But God never gets things wrong so this message of extreme grace is junk.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

the thing is, it's no longer i who live, but Christ who lives through me.
so if i remember who He says i am in Him .. who am i focusing on?



if the scripture says you are a new creation - and that is your identity, according to the Word - isn't that your truth?
we believe in things that we don't necessarily see -- that's faith (Hebrews 11:1) -- don't you agree?

The bible doesn't say that Christ lives his life through us, or that we don't live anymore. It says his spirit is in us and we live our lives towards that spirit. If you focus on yourself, you are focusing on yourself, not Christ.

 

[oldethennew]

my wife and I have to admit that we have gained everything from our Best Friend -
when He would rend His Soul for us...and so, our relation to Him
will never end.

 

[Grace777x70]

One can be self-focused or Christ-focused. This separates grace-believers in the gospel of the grace of Christ "only" from the works-based believers.

We choose to be Christ focused and to believe what He did for us on the cross and in our resurrection with Him with the creation of the new man.....the inner man of the heart created in Christ Jesus in righteousness and true holiness.

We identify that our "old man" died with Him and that we have been raised up in the new man in Christ now..seek Him now!



That we believe His life in us changes us. We believe grace teaches us how to live in this world.

Titus 2:11-12 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

[SUP]12 [/SUP] instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

I realize that these beliefs in the grace of God....especially the acceptance grace and the total forgiveness that Jesus bought and paid for with His blood....that these can be offensive to our religious beliefs and what we have been taught in church.

 

[psalm6819]

1400 years of sacrificing animals for sin, to pay the price to forgive sins, after the sin is recognised, people repent of the action and offer a sacrifice for forgiveness of the sin.

The idea of just changing ones mind rather than actually facing the problem of sin, is completely devaluing what sin and righteousness actually are.

The mission of John the Baptist was to emphasis the need to walk in obedience to Gods laws and to get yourself right with God, and repent of the sin in your life.

Now here is a "christian" movement claiming the very ministry sent to announce Christs message of "good news" was actually a lie. I would suggest it is this new definition is a lie and the people who push it heretics.

And why do I say that? Because John the Baptist was the first person to be born with the Holy Spirit in his life from birth.
He was Gods messenger, or announcer of the final messenger of the Kingdom of God and its ultimate sacrifice.

So if John the Baptist got it wrong so did God. But God never gets things wrong so this message of extreme grace is junk.

John didn't have it wrong, you do, Mr Jens.

Changing/renewing the mind is the result of recognizing one's need for a and Savior accepting His sacrifice and imputed righteousness

The Holy Spirit did not indwell anyone until after Jesus was cruficified.."I go that the Comforter may come" the Holy Spirit came upon but NOT within

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Shows John had the Holy Ghost from the womb

 

[posthuman]

The bible doesn't say that Christ lives his life through us, or that we don't live anymore. It says his spirit is in us and we live our lives towards that spirit.

yes, it does. most obviously here:

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
(Galatians 2:20)

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but the same should be understood from many other passages. like these, for example:

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you -- unless, of course, you fail the test?
(2 Corinthians 13:5)

For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
(2 Corinthians 5:14)

But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.
(Romans 8:10)

To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
(Colossians 1:27)
​

​

If you focus on yourself, you are focusing on yourself, not Christ.

what if i focus on what Christ has done for me, what Christ is doing in me, and who Christ is in me?
((since that is my identity in Christ))

 

[posthuman]

If you focus on yourself, you are focusing on yourself, not Christ.

you're leaving off the "in Christ" part. when people teach you to be conscious of your identity in Christ they are not telling you to be self-centered. they are telling you to believe what the scripture says about you, about Christ in you, so that you will live in a way that pleases Him, and praises Him, ready to do every good thing and to keep yourself from acting contrary to the will & reality of the Spirit He put within you.

if you don't believe that you are bought by blood and belong to Him, or that you are holy and set apart to Him, why would you ever live as though those things are true? you would otherwise live like every man lives: pleasing himself. even this is what you do when you think you are earning your salvation - you please yourself, because you think you are working for a reward for yourself. that is still self-centered -- compelled by your own interests.
but i know that i belong to Him, and that i am fully redeemed and set free - so His love compels me, because i know that in Him i died, and in Him i live. knowing i have died, my own self-interest is no longer very compelling!