Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[PeterJens]

The religion of self-improvement defines righteousness in terms of keeping the rules " The commands in the bible are how we are to live for God"

Jesus is in the religion of redemption, taking sinners and making them saints, who actually freely walk in purity and righteousness.

This is an important concept to realise. The Lord has faith in you and what you are capable of with communion with Him, with your sins forgiven and love alive in your heart.

Some will deny that sin and righteousness matter, it is just condemnation of a struggle that is impossible to win. This is the yeast of the hypocrites who say only hypocracy is the way to walk, because doing the things from the heart is not possible.

And I will agree, without the Lord and love working within these things are impossible. It is why Jesus died upon the cross and seeing this cross with Jesus is the healing of your soul. There is a reason why RCC put Jesus on the cross in their symbols, because this one thing reminds us of the King we follow.

It is obvious though people have started to follow Jesus this is not central to who they are or their experience of Christ.
When Paul says, "I preach Christ Crucified and that alone" he is saying this dedication to love and need is what drives Him.

I have read the testimonies of ex-legalists, saying they gave up trying to be righteous because it was hypocracy.
Then they found Jesus and acceptance. This should have then empowered them to walk in righteousness, not because they had to, but because this is the reality of love and reaching out to others. But what has happened is they are now frozen in defeat and condemn the desire to walk righteously as legalism. So nothing has actually changed just their place on the scales of how they regard the impossibility of it all.

The problems often lie deep in their past and how they are emotionally built. Rather than letting the Lord remake them they are truly defended and unable to change. So whatever position they take, things will always fail.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You might want to pass that along to your buddy HeRose.

don't forget Peter Jens

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't know or care what you believe.

Because I know very well that the person is a rabid follower of Free Grace/Hyper Grace teachings.

Really? How does your foot taste HeRose.

I know you have me on ignore. But it does not mean I can not continue to expose you for who you really are..

Here is yet more proof. And was it not you yesterday who said you were going to expose people who falsly accuse you?

 

[Budman]

Really? How does your foot taste HeRose.

I know you have me on ignore. But it does not mean I can not continue to expose you for who you really are..

Here is yet more proof. And was it not you yesterday who said you were going to expose people who falsly accuse you?

He put me on ignore as well, because he got backed into a theological corner he couldn't wiggle out of.

It's okay, though. Anyone reading through this thread can easily see HeRose's views are aberrant. And they see that when he can't answer certain questions regarding his views, he puts those who exposed him on ignore.

With me, it was because I quoted him as saying that if anyone sins they cannot remain saved, and then he slipped up and admitted he still sins.

He's a hypocrite of the first order.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm beginning to get a handle on this identity thing that "grace believers" and some others keep repeating. I think it's all about self-image and self esteem. After all that's what identity is: self-image. So in actuality identity is just an image in the mind.

Now I'm seeing the difference between between what they and I believe and practice.

For me, Christ is not my identity, but the one with whom I relate; the one with whom I have a relationship. We are both individuals with distinct identities, but we are bound together as one in relationship by a common spirit.

To the others, Christ is their identity; they have a "relationship" with an idea, an image in their mind. They and Christ become one by merging into the same idea. That's why there's no felt need to engage in relational processes like forgiveness, or abstaining from sin.

In the past, as soon as I realized that a woman I was attracted to was more interested in me because she wanted me to fulfill a roll in her life that she identified with, than with actually knowing me, I walked the other way. And I think GOD is no different. There are many who want GOD to fulfill a roll in their lives without actually wanting to know him.

 

[Budman]

If you focus on yourself, you are focusing on yourself, not Christ.

Like how you focus on yourself with your "works-to-remain-saved" theology?

And just like EG, I'll continue to expose you even though you have me on ignore, just so others can see your hypocrisy and twisted hermeneutics.

 

[JaumeJ]

When obeying the Father, we obey Jesus Christ lead by the Holy Spirit. Disobedience is out of the question, while obedience is our natural course of action in the gift of Love given us.

Anyone thinking that knowing to obey is legalistic is deceived by the enemy and knows nothing of how our faith has established the law. I should not need repeat this, but I will. The law is obeyed according to the teching and the example of our Savior, Jesus Christ. If you do not already understand this basic manner of obedience then you have not yet learned that disobedience is of the enemy.........

 

[Budman]

I'm beginning to get a handle on this identity thing that "grace believers" and some others keep repeating. I think it's all about self-image and self esteem.

What an absolute lie. We keep repeating that it is Christ in us that makes us acceptable to God. That we are wretched, rebellious sinners, and the only worth we have comes from what has been credited to us through Jesus.

It is you who is all about self-image, and self-esteem, with your emphasis on works to keep you in right standing with God. It's you who spits back God's gift of salvation with your insistence on earning it, and not simply accepting it.

It's you who keeps saying, "look what I do" while we are the ones who keep saying, "look what Christ did".

 

[JaumeJ]

Among other texts in the Word, you will find that our obedience stems from our new nature. Now, though we are a creation and work of God, it is our due to attempt our best to conform to God's will. Here is just one exerpt from Epesians demonstrating we are to obey God, yet our perfection has nothing to do with anything we do, or could do, it is all a free gift from our Father. This by no means is dismissing any of us from doing our bet to be like Jesus Christ. If you do not understand it from me, learn it from the Word you claim to already know.


Eph 2:1
You used to be dead because of your offenses and sins,

Eph 2:2
that you once practiced as you lived according to the ways of this present world and according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now active in those who are disobedient.

Eph 2:3
Indeed, all of us once behaved like them in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of our flesh and senses. By nature we were destined for wrath, just like everyone else.

Eph 2:4
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love for us

Eph 2:5
even when we were dead because of our offenses, made us alive together with the Messiah (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:6
raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavenly realm in the Messiah Jesus,

Eph 2:7
so that in the coming ages he might display the limitless riches of his grace that comes to us through his kindness in the Messiah Jesus.

Eph 2:8
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God

Eph 2:9
and not the result of actions, to put a stop to all boasting.

Eph 2:10
For we are God's masterpiece, created in the Messiah Jesus to perform good actions that God prepared long ago to be our way of life.

Eph 2:11
So then, remember that at one time you gentiles by birth were called "the uncircumcised" by those who called themselves "the circumcised." They underwent physical circumcision done by human hands.

Eph 2:12
At that time you were without the Messiah, excluded from citizenship in Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise. You had no hope and were in the world without God.


Eph 2:13
But now, in union with the Messiah Jesus, you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I'm beginning to get a handle on this identity thing that "grace believers" and some others keep repeating. I think it's all about self-image and self esteem. After all that's what identity is: self-image. So in actuality identity is just an image in the mind.

Now I'm seeing the difference between between what they and I believe and practice.

For me, Christ is not my identity, but the one with whom I relate; the one with whom I have a relationship. We are both individuals with distinct identities, but we are bound together as one in relationship by a common spirit.

To the others, Christ is their identity; they have a "relationship" with an idea, an image in their mind. They and Christ become one by merging into the same idea. That's why there's no felt need to engage in relational processes like forgiveness, or abstaining from sin.

In the past, as soon as I realized that a woman I was attracted to was more interested in me because she wanted me to fulfill a roll in her life that she identified with, than with actually knowing me, I walked the other way. And I think GOD is no different. There are many who want GOD to fulfill a roll in their lives without actually wanting to know him.

Nope. You still have no clue what identity means, let alone what a Christian's identity is. Our identity is based in who or what we are identified with. The spiritual identity of the unregenerate is that of a sinner, derived from their identification with the spirit from which all sin is derived. Whereas the spiritual identity of the Christian is that of a saint, derived from our identification with the Spirit from which all holiness is derived...the Holy One, Jesus Christ, who by His Spirit indwells us.

Why is it important to have a proper understanding of our new identity in Christ? Why does God no longer condemn us for our sins, but rather constantly remind us who and whose we are? Because by seeing ourselves as we truly are we, as saints, as totally loved and accepted children of God, we see for ourselves when our behavior is contrary to who we are. If we are righteous saints, why are we exhibiting the character of an unrighteous sinner? Why indeed.

 

[FreeNChrist]

When obeying the Father, we obey Jesus Christ lead by the Holy Spirit. Disobedience is out of the question, while obedience is our natural course of action in the gift of Love given us.

Anyone thinking that knowing to obey is legalistic is deceived by the enemy and knows nothing of how our faith has established the law. I should not need repeat this, but I will. The law is obeyed according to the teching and the example of our Savior, Jesus Christ. If you do not already understand this basic manner of obedience then you have not yet learned that disobedience is of the enemy.........

Those who obey more are those who increasingly “get” that their standing with God is not based on their imperfect obedience to Jesus, but Jesus’ perfect obedience for them. The irony of grace is that we actually perform better as we grow to understand that God’s love for us is based on Christ’s performance, not our performance.


IOW, grace, not law, produces love.....the love for God and neighbor that Jesus teaches (Luke 10:27).

His love for us begets love from us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am confused.

First he says.

Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead

I don't know or care what you believe.

Now he says..

I'm beginning to get a handle on this identity thing that "grace believers" and some others keep repeating. I think it's all about self-image and self esteem. After all that's what identity is: self-image. So in actuality identity is just an image in the mind. .

Can't he make his mind up?

And by the way HeRose, If you think that is what we are saying, You are wrong, as usual..

You need to go back to what you first said,

Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead

I don't know or care what you believe.


that is one of the most truthful and accurate thing you have said in months.

 

[Budman]

When obeying the Father, we obey Jesus Christ lead by the Holy Spirit. Disobedience is out of the question, while obedience is our natural course of action in the gift of Love given us.

Anyone thinking that knowing to obey is legalistic is deceived by the enemy and knows nothing of how our faith has established the law. I should not need repeat this, but I will. The law is obeyed according to the teching and the example of our Savior, Jesus Christ. If you do not already understand this basic manner of obedience then you have not yet learned that disobedience is of the enemy.........

I agree, and well said. The only point we're trying to make though, is that our obedience, or lack thereof, has no bearing on the permanence of our salvation. That matter is settled.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When obeying the Father, we obey Jesus Christ lead by the Holy Spirit. Disobedience is out of the question, while obedience is our natural course of action in the gift of Love given us.

So your perfect. You never sin?

If your answer is no. Then you can not even do what you just typed. Thus you are demanding others do what you admit you have not done.

Anyone thinking that knowing to obey is legalistic is deceived by the enemy and knows nothing of how our faith has established the law. I should not need repeat this, but I will. The law is obeyed according to the teching and the example of our Savior, Jesus Christ. If you do not already understand this basic manner of obedience then you have not yet learned that disobedience is of the enemy.........

for the umpteenth time (I am getting sick of saying this.

Saying one should be obedience, and teaching it is Not legalism.

Legalism is saying it is required to

1. Get saved
2. Stay saved
3. Not lose salvation once you get saved.

This continued strawman that we call everyone who teaches legalism has worn out its welcome. Thus it has started to become bearing false witness,, because you have lost the excuse of ignorance, There is n way you can continue to claim we teach it. It is has been proven otherwise.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The bible doesn't say that Christ lives his life through us, or that we don't live anymore. It says his spirit is in us and we live our lives towards that spirit.

This IS the foundational error that causes HeRose's confused beliefs, and why he has no idea what the rest of us are talking about.

 

[JaumeJ]

It seems many, not just some, of the grace only folks do not see when those of us who believe we should do our best to obey God point out that nothing we do is of any account as regarding our salvation for that is a free gift of God by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

These, the majority of them, do indeed want salvation by grace only while teaching disobedience, being blind to our indicating we know we are saved by grace only, yet knowing as the same time what the prayer, "They will be done," truly means to the believer.

Apparently, by their own admission we should not try our best to conform to th eimage of Jesus Christ. They do not know that we are aware we will never be perfect in this aged, yet come the resurrection we will be just like Jesus Christ. No one hinting we should not be obedient is going to be able to continue in this posture come the Kingdome. I hate to think what these deaf, dumb and blind individuals will be facing.

God bless all obedient children in the grace of Jesus Christ, amen, your are lovely and most edifying...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Among other texts in the Word, you will find that our obedience stems from our new nature. Now, though we are a creation and work of God, it is our due to attempt our best to conform to God's will. Here is just one exerpt from Epesians demonstrating we are to obey God, yet our perfection has nothing to do with anything we do, or could do, it is all a free gift from our Father. This by no means is dismissing any of us from doing our bet to be like Jesus Christ. If you do not understand it from me, learn it from the Word you claim to already know.

This really is the crux of the controversy. Our new nature gives us the ability and power to do the will of GOD.

But to those who are steeped in the elixir of total inability, obedience is not at all necessary because the new nature itself is what saves (e.g., eternal life is eternal, what's born can't become unborn, circumcision can't become uncircumcision, blah, blah, blah...).

 

[Budman]

Those who obey more are those who increasingly “get” that their standing with God is not based on their imperfect obedience to Jesus, but Jesus’ perfect obedience for them. The irony of grace is that we actually perform better as we grow to understand that God’s love for us is based on Christ’s performance, not our performance.

I can't amen that enough!

 

[FreeNChrist]

It seems many, not just some, of the grace only folks do not see when those of us who believe we should do our best to obey God point out that nothing we do is of any account as regarding our salvation for that is a free gift of God by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

These, the majority of them, do indeed want salvation by grace only while teaching disobedience, being blind to our indicating we know we are saved by grace only, yet knowing as the same time what the prayer, "They will be done," truly means to the believer.

Apparently, by their own admission we should not try our best to conform to th eimage of Jesus Christ. They do not know that we are aware we will never be perfect in this aged, yet come the resurrection we will be just like Jesus Christ. No one hinting we should not be obedient is going to be able to continue in this posture come the Kingdome. I hate to think what these deaf, dumb and blind individuals will be facing.

God bless all obedient children in the grace of Jesus Christ, amen, your are lovely and most edifying...

If you want the Law the standard is not "doing your best", the standard is "be perfect". How perfect? As perfect as the Father in Heaven. How ya doin' now?

"Doing your best" is a program for failure.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It seems many, not just some, of the grace only folks do not see when those of us who believe we should do our best to obey God point out that nothing we do is of any account as regarding our salvation for that is a free gift of God by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

These, the majority of them, do indeed want salvation by grace only while teaching disobedience,

do you ever give up? You just lied again. How can you sit there and demand you teach obedience yet lie like you do?

That is many in the world want nothing to do with Christianity, they see us as a bunch of hypocrites. Do as I say, Not as I do..

being blind to our indicating we know we are saved by grace only, yet knowing as the same time what the prayer, "They will be done," truly means to the believer.

So you believe that when you recieve eternal life, you are saved forever? When did you change your belief system?

Apparently, by their own admission we should not try our best to conform to th eimage of Jesus Christ. They do not know that we are aware we will never be perfect in this aged, yet come the resurrection we will be just like Jesus Christ. No one hinting we should not be obedient is going to be able to continue in this posture come the Kingdome. I hate to think what these deaf, dumb and blind individuals will be facing.

Wow dude, You sure sound christlike here.

So again, WHen did you change your belief system, that you WILL be ressurected by Christ no matter what, even though you admit your not perfect? and there is no chance that could be lost?

God bless all obedient children in the grace of Jesus Christ, amen, your are lovely and most edifying...

Why thank you for blessing me, But I must ask, why are you condemning me and blessing me at the same time?