Why the king james?

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Nov 23, 2013
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Bull.... I told you about the 1 Cor 14 discussion on "unknown" tongues... where the Greek did not say "unknown", but the KJV along with many others, DID say that. That qualifies for "error" MUCH more than any of your "son of the gods" Nebuchadnezzar quote that you always drag out.

If the Greek didn't say "unknown", then the KJV translators just added it in because THEY thought that's what it meant.

Other people have come up with as good as, or better than that, but you and your crowd either ignore, or try to justify it somehow.

The KJV is no more "inerrant" than several other translations, and is quite a bit more difficult to read and comprehend.
Right, like I said to others here, you can't prove inerrancy to someone who doesn't believe the words written in any bible. What is a tongue man? We all speak in a tongue, English, Spanish, German Swahili... all tongues are known by someone. Why would someone need to interpret English for me? How does speaking the English "tongue" edify me but prphesying in English edifies the church. Do you see how stupid that is, do you see how wrong bibles are that say that?

The correct translation is unkown tongue just like the KJV says. An unknown tongue is just that, a tongue that NOBODY on earth knows. You have no clue what speaking in tongues is yet you know unequivocally that the KJV got it wrong. Maybe you like the false bible translatosr, should undertand what tongues are before you try to tell others how the bible should be translated.
 
M

Miri

Guest
I'm glad we have sorted that out then. :p


Ps I have nothing against the KJV at all, it's a version along with others.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I'm glad we have sorted that out then. :p


Ps I have nothing against the KJV at all, it's a version along with others.

Amen...well said....I like the King James too....and it is as you say and most of the world ( and even the KJV says it's so )..it is a "version"..hence the name King James "Version".

Let the people read what they want. The Holy Spirit will guide them to what He wants them to know and He uses different 'versions" which basically say the same thing anyway and then there is access by everyone in today's world the Greek to study deeper into God's word.

( I can't believe I'm posting in here again..lol ..let me out of this crazy house...:rolleyes: )
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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hornetguy, thank God he moved you to point this out -- i was completely unaware of it.

1 Corinthians 14:4 --


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[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ho[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"][/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the [one][/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2980 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]lalōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]λαλῶν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]speaking[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1100 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]glōssē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]γλώσσῃ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]in a tongue,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1438 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]heauton[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἑαυτὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]himself[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]RefPro-AM3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3618 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]oikodomei[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οἰκοδομεῖ·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]edifies;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ho[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"][/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the [one][/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δὲ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]however[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4395 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]prophēteuōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]προφητεύων[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]prophesying,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1577 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ekklēsian[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐκκλησίαν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][the] church[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3618 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]oikodomei[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οἰκοδομεῖ.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]edifies.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

the word "unknown" is not in the text. not in any single one of the Greek manuscripts available on biblehub.com

but in the KJV --


He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

i think we have to be pretty much willfully blind not to concede that this is an error in the KJV -- and if we shut our eyes to the truth for the sake of the KJV, we've made the KJV more important to us than the truth -- what does that constitute?

wow, this is really revealing -- and to think too, how many times i've heard this verse quoted from the KJV, in "tongues" arguments, about "unknown" tongues -- to justify the literal babble that goes on in some circles, just... wow.


 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,886
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You have no clue what speaking in tongues is yet you know unequivocally that the KJV got it wrong.
i don't have to know anything about tongues at all -- i don't even need to be able to speak English or Greek -- to see clearly that the KJV has inserted the word "unknown" into the translation here, but "unknown" is not in the Greek text that was being translated.

to its credit however, the KJV does put "unknown" in italics -- indicating that it's an insertion not found in the originals.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Since you understand Greek and have the originals, and have more understanding than the 54 men who translated the KJV, could you go through the Bible and correct all of the mistakes and give us a Bible we can trust to be true? Thanks.

Bull.... I told you about the 1 Cor 14 discussion on "unknown" tongues... where the Greek did not say "unknown", but the KJV along with many others, DID say that. That qualifies for "error" MUCH more than any of your "son of the gods" Nebuchadnezzar quote that you always drag out.

If the Greek didn't say "unknown", then the KJV translators just added it in because THEY thought that's what it meant.

Other people have come up with as good as, or better than that, but you and your crowd either ignore, or try to justify it somehow.

The KJV is no more "inerrant" than several other translations, and is quite a bit more difficult to read and comprehend.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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First of all, we Bible believers believe in a word for word meaning, not necessarily a strictly literal word for word translation. Sometimes the literal translation would not make sense to us.


ALL translations into another language require the "addition" of certain words for a passage to make proper sense. Why? Because the Hebrew and Greek languages are often elliptical languages. That is, they sometimes omit the Subject or the Verb, or the Direct Object, the Indirect Object or even the word "not" when the text requires it when placed into another language.


The King James Bible translators were honest enough to put most of these "added" words in italics so you could see where they did this. Versions like the NASB, NKJV, ESV, NIV, NET, Holman Standard ALL still "add" those words but they do not always put them in italics so a person reading them is not aware of this.


The immediate context of 1 Corinthians 14 necessitates the "adding" of the word "unknown", because what was being spoken was not a known language to those who heard it. The example of tongues being spoken in Acts chapter Two is quite different. There the people understood what was being said in their own languages, without the need of an interpreter. Here, in 1 Corinthians chapter Fourteen, the type of tongue being spoken was not understood by anyone present in the church meetings. A simple reading of the whole chapter will make this abundantly clear.


Notice: "he that speaketh in an UNKNOWN tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God, for no man understandeth him...he speaketh mysteries"; "except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken?"; "if I know not the meaning of the voice...he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me"; "if I pray in an unknown tongue...my understanding is unfruitful"; "he understandeth not what thou sayest"; "if any man speak in an unknown tongue...let one interpret, but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church."


What was being spoken was obviously an "unknown tongue" and unless one was present who had the spiritual gift of interpretation, then what was being said could not be understood or known by anyone there.

Once again, the KJV is superior.

i don't have to know anything about tongues at all -- i don't even need to be able to speak English or Greek -- to see clearly that the KJV has inserted the word "unknown" into the translation here, but "unknown" is not in the Greek text that was being translated.

to its credit however, the KJV does put "unknown" in italics -- indicating that it's an insertion not found in the originals.
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
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Here we go again, round and round and round.

The NIV and other translatiosn do exactly the same thing you write about.

If we were meant to have a perfect version we are only to read from, then God would have told us, but God has not. Islam has its original Quran which all copies have to be written from, how do we know this is perfect and not a corrupt copy?

As for Bible texts, there are thousands of copies in all languages and from all times, it is easy to see what the message is and what is meant, we can be sure that if any version of a Bible comes out it will be right, as it is easy to compare with what is already in existence, especially the older copies.

King James is a superb translation, i am not denying that, but the NIV is also a superb translation, but they are only translations.

If a new translation came out which then gave a verse such as Jesus stating something such as "But you can get to the father by more than one way", then that is an error and we know it.

The so called errors you come out with are insignificant and have no impact on God and our walk with Christ.

You can not and will not have any proof that the King James is the only Bible we should read, as there is none, other than the logic in your head that says it is.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Since you understand Greek and have the originals, and have more understanding than the 54 men who translated the KJV, could you go through the Bible and correct all of the mistakes and give us a Bible we can trust to be true? Thanks.
This is another fallacy. It's called "burden of proof reversal". Instead of simply conceding the point of inerrancy, as is appropriate, you try to place burden on Hornetguy to go farther. He has no need to do so. Your position is refuted, again.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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God's word is truth, we can agree. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." If there is an error, then it's not truth. An error, a fact that is distorted or wrong makes that translation not the word of truth. It makes that translation a corrupt translation. An error is significant and disqualifies that translation from being Scripture.

The so called errors you come out with are insignificant and have no impact on God and our walk with Christ.
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
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God's word is truth, we can agree. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." If there is an error, then it's not truth. An error, a fact that is distorted or wrong makes that translation not the word of truth. It makes that translation a corrupt translation. An error is significant and disqualifies that translation from being Scripture.
But none of the examples you give qualify as errors, they are just difference of interpretation. the logic you apply to the King James is where you are going wrong.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Acts 10:30 KJV - “And Cornelius said, four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing.”

NIV - “Cornelius answered: “Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me”

So, was it FOUR days ago, or THREE days ago? It's a matter of truth, historical fact.

The reading of FOUR days ago is that of virtually every manuscript and Bible translation in existence all through history. This error disqualifies the NIV from being Scripture. Leave it alone. It can't be trusted.

But none of the examples you give qualify as errors, they are just difference of interpretation. the logic you apply to the King James is where you are going wrong.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Acts 10:30 KJV - “And Cornelius said, four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing.”

NIV - “Cornelius answered: “Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me”

So, was it FOUR days ago, or THREE days ago? It's a matter of truth, historical fact.

The reading of FOUR days ago is that of virtually every manuscript and Bible translation in existence all through history. This error disqualifies the NIV from being Scripture. Leave it alone. It can't be trusted.
This is a red herring fallacy. Once again, you cannot prove the inerrancy of the KJV by calling the NIV, or any other translation, erroneous. This thread is not about the inerrancy of the NIV, but about the KJV. Stick to the topic at hand.
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
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Acts 10:30 KJV - “And Cornelius said, four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing.”

NIV - “Cornelius answered: “Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me”

So, was it FOUR days ago, or THREE days ago? It's a matter of truth, historical fact.

The reading of FOUR days ago is that of virtually every manuscript and Bible translation in existence all through history. This error disqualifies the NIV from being Scripture. Leave it alone. It can't be trusted.

King James 1611: ACTS 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

NIV [SUP]0 [/SUP]he God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.

Reading this from the King James shows that Jesus was killed before being put on a tree. So he did not die on a cross?
Which of these two verses gives the more accurate translation for English speakers? The NIV.


Can the King James be trusted, no more than the NIV. But reading the different translations you get the right feel and indication of the original writing.

3 days 4 days, SO WHAT. How does that effect my relationship with GOd? HOw does that drive people away from God? How does that condemn people to Hell? It does not.

If anything the King James translation of implying how Jesus died, is more of a serious nature than number of days that someone did something.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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In Acts 5:30 and 10:39 the word "and" does not refer to a sequence of events, but to an additional description of what took place. The use of "and" in this manner is common English grammar describing events which take place simultaneously. "We watched the college football game, AND had a great time, AND we ate hot dogs AND drank Cokes, AND clapped AND yelled till we were hoarse."

What the NIV missed is the word tree. The word for cross is stauros, not xulon, and by translating it as cross instead of the proper "tree", the NIV misses the whole point of what the Holy Ghost is saying in this verse through Peter. Deuteronomy 21:22-23 says: "And if any man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a TREE: His body shall not remain all night upon the TREE, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (FOR HE THAT IS HANGED IS ACCURSED OF GOD;)"

We can then see the significance of the "tree" when we cross reference these verses with Galatians 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a TREE."

For the Jews to hang another man on a tree was a special mark of the curse of God upon such an individual AND was an additional insult heaped upon the person who committed the crime.


King James 1611: ACTS 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

NIV [SUP]0 [/SUP]he God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.

Reading this from the King James shows that Jesus was killed before being put on a tree. So he did not die on a cross?
Which of these two verses gives the more accurate translation for English speakers? The NIV.


Can the King James be trusted, no more than the NIV. But reading the different translations you get the right feel and indication of the original writing.

3 days 4 days, SO WHAT. How does that effect my relationship with GOd? HOw does that drive people away from God? How does that condemn people to Hell? It does not.

If anything the King James translation of implying how Jesus died, is more of a serious nature than number of days that someone did something.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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It may not, but it should affect what Bible you use. It's a matter of trust, a matter of truth. Is my Bible the word of truth? Can I trust every word to be right? If not, as I read from Genesis - Revelation how am I to know which verses I can trust and which verses I cannot trust?

3 days 4 days, SO WHAT. How does that effect my relationship with GOd? HOw does that drive people away from God? How does that condemn people to Hell? It does not.

If anything the King James translation of implying how Jesus died, is more of a serious nature than number of days that someone did something.
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
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So people are supposed to have a degree in English grammar to read the King James now? It is ridiculous that you have to give a lecture about English language and grammer to defend your position.

You bleat on about how much more simpler the King James is to read and how kids can even read it, but if a kid read that verse it sounds like as it is, that Jesus was killed then hung on a tree

. The NIV verse is the easier of the two English versions to read and understand, no matter how much you try to defend it.