ONE BAPTISM - Ephesians 4:5

[crossnote]

One baptism- #2
Is the baptism with the Spirit the only baptism which saves?
IMO both Jesus our Lord (Mark 16: 15, 16) and Peter (1 Peter 3: 21) indicate that the baptism in water in the name of Christ saves. God bless.

Grave digger!! LOL

 

[plaintalk]

One Baptism #259
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ alone for salvation. Obedience which FOLLOWS is WORKS and we are not saved by works. There is your confusion. You don't seem to make a distinction between faith and obedience/works which follow and are produced out of faith, thus you continue to confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit of salvation (works).

Response:
When we receive Jesus by believing in His name, we are begotten by (John 1: 12, 13), the word is implanted in our hearts. However this faith is not a complete faith, a perfected faith, but we are given the right to become children of God (and be saved) when that faith is perfected. James explains that that faith is perfected, by working with the works of faith (these include repentance and baptism in the name of Christ, in water, for the forgiveness of our sins) that God has appointed for all. (James 2: 22) Abraham’s faith was perfected in the same way when he obeyed God by offering Isaac. (Gen 22: 12) God said, “for now I know that you fear God.” This statement was not made for God’s benefit; it was made to benefit Abraham and all that follow him, living by faith. The statement, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” was fulfilled or completed. (James 2: 23) Faith is perfected by obedience; we are saved by a perfected faith.

A work of faith is by definition and practice “of faith.” It falls in the category of “faith” not “works.” And having been made perfect, He became to all that obey Him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5: 9) Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb. 12: 2) God bless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One Baptism #259
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ alone for salvation. Obedience which FOLLOWS is WORKS and we are not saved by works. There is your confusion. You don't seem to make a distinction between faith and obedience/works which follow and are produced out of faith, thus you continue to confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit of salvation (works).

Response:
When we receive Jesus by believing in His name, we are begotten by (John 1: 12, 13), the word is implanted in our hearts. However this faith is not a complete faith, a perfected faith, but we are given the right to become children of God (and be saved) when that faith is perfected. James explains that that faith is perfected, by working with the works of faith (these include repentance and baptism in the name of Christ, in water, for the forgiveness of our sins) that God has appointed for all. (James 2: 22) Abraham’s faith was perfected in the same way when he obeyed God by offering Isaac. (Gen 22: 12) God said, “for now I know that you fear God.” This statement was not made for God’s benefit; it was made to benefit Abraham and all that follow him, living by faith. The statement, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” was fulfilled or completed. (James 2: 23) Faith is perfected by obedience; we are saved by a perfected faith.

A work of faith is by definition and practice “of faith.” It falls in the category of “faith” not “works.” And having been made perfect, He became to all that obey Him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5: 9) Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb. 12: 2) God bless.

Thats another way of saying I am not saved by Law. But If I do not follow the law I am not saved.

God is not a fool. He knows every thought and every INTENTION we have, He knows our faith is real the moment it has life. and he saved us at that moment.

Works may not follow immediately. they do not have to. God know the faith is real. and works will follow.

God is not dependent on you, He know your faith was real before time began, and chose to predestine you as a son of God before time even began.

 

[plaintalk]

One Baptism #259
Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as “obeying the gospel” (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were consistently obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR or UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ JesusFOR or UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience/works. We have access by FAITH into GRACE… (Romans 5:2) not faith “and obedience.” We are saved through faith first, then “unto” obedience (works). You put the cart before the horse.

Response:
Well, I am sorry, but I must disagree, IMO (1) coming to faith in Christ is not best described as an act of obedience and (2) “obeying the gospel” does not, IMO. refer to coming to faith.

(1) The initial conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment, which some have called mental assent, is a work of the Holy Spirit. This conviction points us to Jesus, but we are drawn to Him by the love and hope revealed in the gospel and also initially by fear of punishment. Those that are so convicted and come after Him, discover that the first requirement is not some great act of volition, but on the contrary it is denial of self. God desires a contrite spirit and He gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. God opens the heart of the humble to respond to the message in faith mingled with love. This is when we receive Jesus by believing in our mind and heart that He is indeed the Son of God, the Messiah. We are begotten by God and given the right to become children of God.

(2) IMO. believing the gospel refers to coming to faith. Obeying the gospel refers to being united with our Lord in regard to the three primary tenets of the gospel—His death, burial and resurrection. When we have obeyed that form of teaching—we die to the old self, we are buried with Him in baptism so that we might arise with Him in the newness of life—then we have obeyed the gospel.

Yes, we are created in Christ for good works, but we have access to that grace through faith which works through love. On that first Pentecost, those that believed were commanded to repent and be baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. Those that received the word were baptized and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

One Baptism #259
We obey the gospel from the heart when we choose to believe the gospel. We believe in our HEART (and not just in our head) that God has raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9). Our hearts are first purified by faith (Acts 15:9) and then acts of obedience/works FOLLOW.

Response:
Sorry, we obey the gospel when we obey that form of teaching from the heart (Rom. 6: 17, 18) and die to the old self when we are baptized into Christ, are buried with Him in baptism so that we might arise with Him in newness of life. (Rom. 6: 3-7)

God opens our heart to respond in faith and love when we deny ourselves. (Acts 16: 14) Faith is a work of God (John 6: 29), by grace Acts 18: 27) a gift (Rom. 12: 3)

Our hearts are cleansed (purified) by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9: 14), faith is not the ultimate purifying or cleansing factor. The Scriptures say we are cleansed by faith (Acts 15: 9), because when we by faith, obey Jesus Christ, we are sprinkled clean with the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1: 2). IMO these verses sound like the blood of Christ is not applied until our faith is perfected by obedience. There are several factors that are said to purify, cleanse, blot out sin, wash away sin, free from sin, forgive: these include purified by obedience (1 Peter 1: 22), purified by hope (1 John 3: 3), by repentance (Acts 3: 19), by baptism (Acts 22: 16), by dying to the old self in baptism (Rom. 6: 6, 7), by obeying that form of teaching (Rom. 6: 17, 18), by being in Christ through baptism (Eph. 1: 3, 7; Col. 1: 14), by water (Eph. 5: 26. No, IMO we are not purified by faith alone, we are purified by faith when it works in conjunction with these other works of faith.

As our bodies are washed with pure water, we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ. (Heb. 10: 22) Some folks take the smorgasbord approach to the gospel, they pick what they want and ignore the rest. God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

One Baptism #259
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ alone for salvation. Obedience which FOLLOWS is WORKS and we are not saved by works. There is your confusion. You don't seem to make a distinction between faith and obedience/works which follow and are produced out of faith, thus you continue to confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit of salvation (works).

Amen! Unfortunately, everything that I have explained to you numerous times just continues to go right over your head.

Response:
When we receive Jesus by believing in His name, we are begotten by (John 1: 12, 13), the word is implanted in our hearts.

We become children of God and are saved the moment that we believe in His name (John 1:12; 1 John 5:13).

However this faith is not a complete faith, a perfected faith, but we are given the right to become children of God (and be saved) when that faith is perfected.

False! In other words, what you are saying here is that we are saved by works. Given the right to become children of God means that we DO BECOME children of God when we believe in His name. It doesn't mean that we don't actually become children of God until later, after we accomplish a check list of works. You remain completely confused about what James means by perfected faith.

James explains that that faith is perfected, by working with the works of faith (these include repentance and baptism in the name of Christ, in water, for the forgiveness of our sins) that God has appointed for all. (James 2: 22) Abraham’s faith was perfected in the same way when he obeyed God by offering Isaac. (Gen 22: 12)

James did not say anything about "repentance and baptism" being the works that perfect our faith in James chapter 2. Repentance actually "precedes" believe/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20;21). *Why do you continue to ignore these passages of scripture? In James 2:15-16, James mentions the work of giving a brother or sister who is naked and destitute of daily food the things which are needed for the body and in James 2:21, James mentions the work of Abraham offering up Isaac on the altar. You have "added" your own personal commentary to James chapter 2.

God said, “for now I know that you fear God.” This statement was not made for God’s benefit; it was made to benefit Abraham and all that follow him, living by faith. The statement, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” was fulfilled or completed. (James 2: 23) Faith is perfected by obedience; we are saved by a perfected faith.

Once again, you are teaching that we are saved through faith (your version of faith) and obedience/works that follow. Absolutely false! *In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22 and his faith was said to be perfected. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous." According to your faulty human logic, Abraham remained a lost man for many years after his faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6 until he offered up Isaac in Genesis 22. *Also see Romans 4:2-3.

Made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.

Amen! Romans 4:2 - For "if Abraham was justified by works," he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

A work of faith is by definition and practice “of faith.” It falls in the category of “faith” not “works.”

Something that is done "out of faith" is a work and is not defined as faith. You are trying to "shoe horn" works "into" faith and refer to these works as faith in order to accommodate your "works based" false gospel. You are taking faith AND works then wrapping them up in a package and simply stamping faith on the package. This is a common error among works salvationists. The natural man just does not understand because he is spiritually discerned - 1 Corinthians 2:14. Understanding the difference between faith "and obedience/works which follow faith" and are produced "out of faith" was a major hang up for me as well, prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church many years ago. Until you REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel and the blinders are removed, understanding the difference will remain a major hang up for you as well.

And having been made perfect, He became to all that obey Him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5: 9) Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb. 12: 2)

Seeking salvation by works is not obeying Him. So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists (such as Roman Catholics and Mormons, along with yourself) use this verse to try and support "salvation by works." Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him "after they have been saved through faith" by practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers practice sin and not righteousness (1 John 3:8,10) and unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. *In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

 

[Grace777x70]

We become children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Romans 8:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

 

[mailmandan]

One Baptism #259
We obey the gospel from the heart when we choose to believe the gospel. We believe in our HEART (and not just in our head) that God has raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9). Our hearts are first purified by faith (Acts 15:9) and then acts of obedience/works FOLLOW.

Amen! Unfortunately, I see the truth went right over your head once again.

Response:
Sorry, we obey the gospel when we obey that form of teaching from the heart (Rom. 6: 17, 18) and die to the old self when we are baptized into Christ, are buried with Him in baptism so that we might arise with Him in newness of life. (Rom. 6: 3-7)

Sorry, water baptism is the PICTURE, but not the reality of dying to the old self and rising with Him in newness of life. We obey the gospel/obey that form of teaching from the heart when we choose to believe the gospel:

*Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness.. *Unto righteousness = saved.

*Compare 1 Peter 1:22 - "purified your souls in obeying the truth" with Acts 15:9 - "purified their hearts by faith."

God opens our heart to respond in faith and love when we deny ourselves. (Acts 16: 14) Faith is a work of God (John 6: 29), by grace Acts 18: 27) a gift (Rom. 12: 3)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Our hearts are cleansed (purified) by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9: 14), faith is not the ultimate purifying or cleansing factor.

Faith (our part) is the instrumental means by which hearts are purified (God's part) by the blood of Christ:

Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.

Colossians 1:14 - in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The Scriptures say we are cleansed by faith (Acts 15: 9),

Yes, by faith. Not by faith and baptism or faith and works.

because when we by faith, obey Jesus Christ, we are sprinkled clean with the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1: 2).

You don't seem to understand the difference between being saved "by or through" faith when we place our faith in Christ for salvation/obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel, and obeying Jesus Christ "by or out of" faith AFTER we have been saved through faith. You continue to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, but the shoe does not fit.

IMO these verses sound like the blood of Christ is not applied until our faith is perfected by obedience.

It only "sounds" like that to you because of your church of Christ indoctrination. *See 1 Corinthians 2:14 and 2 Corinthians 4:3,4 to discover the heart of your problem. The word "perfected" is nowhere mentioned in 1 Peter chapter 1. Your misinterpretation of 1 Peter 1:2 has led you to erroneously believe that man is saved by obedience/works which "follow" saving faith in Christ.

There are several factors that are said to purify, cleanse, blot out sin, wash away sin, free from sin, forgive: these include purified by obedience (1 Peter 1: 22),

You have a major hang up with the word "obey." You write a blank check with the word obey then fill in whatever amount of works you believe are necessary for salvation in order to accommodate your "works based" false gospel. Once again:

*Compare 1 Peter 1:22 - "purified your souls in obeying the truth" with Acts 15:9 - “purified their hearts by faith.” *Obey the truth/obey the gospel/believe the gospel/hearts purified by faith.

purified by hope (1 John 3: 3),

Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. Purified by hope (1 John 3:3); saved by hope (Romans 8:24) does not mean that someone may have faith but no hope so they won't be purified or saved. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. Hope - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Genuine hope is another aspect of faith. If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

by repentance (Acts 3: 19),

The new direction of this change of mind in repentance is faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). Repentance and faith are inseparable in receiving cleansing/forgiveness/salvation.

by baptism (Acts 22: 16),

Baptism pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ, but it does not literally wash away our sins, contrary to your conclusion. In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism (Acts 10:43-47). *Also see Acts 26:18. No scripture is to be interpretated in isololation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple clear verses, and not vice versa.

by dying to the old self in baptism (Rom. 6: 6, 7),

Once again, water baptism is the PICTURE, but not the reality of dying to the old self. *A symbol is not the reality, but the PICTURE of the reality.

by obeying that form of teaching (Rom. 6: 17, 18),

We obey that form of teaching/obey the gospel and receive salvation when we choose to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16).

by being in Christ through baptism (Eph. 1: 3, 7; Col. 1: 14),

It is through Spirit baptism, not water baptism that we are placed into the body of Christ:

*1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14 for the word, drink(s).

*Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

by water (Eph. 5: 26.

Ephesians 5:26 says washing of water by the word, not by water baptism. Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). 1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

No, IMO we are not purified by faith alone,

We are purified when we place our faith in Christ alone for salvation, which you obviously still have not done. It's a real shame to see so much zeal wasted on UNBELIEF.

we are purified by faith when it works in conjunction with these other works of faith.

We are purified by faith when we place our faith in Christ alone for salvation "apart from works that are produced out of faith afterwards."

As our bodies are washed with pure water, we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ. (Heb. 10: 22)

And of course, you misinterpret Hebrews 10:22 to teach salvation by water baptism.

Hebrews 10:22 in the NASB reads - let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. *Notice the order. Reference to this verse as proving regeneration, or the new birth, by water baptism ignores the point of the contrasting of that sprinkling which affects the heart, removing from it an evil conscience, and that washing of the body with pure water. It is the sprinkling (with the Blood of Christ- Hebrews 9:14; I Peter 1:2) which touches the heart. The washing of pure water affects the body. Paul was careful to distinguish between an outward circumcision, which was of the flesh (Romans 2:28-29) and an inward circumcision, which was of the heart. The true Jew, the true child of Abraham (and therefore the true Christian) has the inward circumcision of the heart, not only the outward, and this is accomplished by the "sprinkling of the blood of Christ" (I Peter 1:2), not by a washing in water in the ordinance of water baptism. Even Peter said - "not the removal of the dirt from the flesh" but the answer of a good conscience toward God. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21).

The writer of Hebrews shows us that no outward ceremony affects the heart (Hebrews 9:13ff.). He would not, and does not contradict himself here by teaching that the washing of the body in water accomplishes an inward cleansing. The former is inward and spiritual, "of the heart" (Romans 2:28-29), and the latter is outward and physical, or "of the flesh" (Romans 2:28-29). The washing of the body in pure water does not present baptism as the means of the cleansing or purifying of the heart. The sprinkling with the Blood of Christ is, and washing our bodies with water is expressly distinguished from sprinkling with the Blood of Christ. Since water baptism is not the means of purifying the heart from sin, it is not the means of regeneration, and it is not absolutely necessary for salvation.

Some folks take the smorgasbord approach to the gospel, they pick what they want and ignore the rest. God bless.

The gospel is not a smorgasbord of works salvation. Some folks simply pervert the gospel of Christ by distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" their "works based" false gospel. Believers are not ignoring those passages that Campbellites misinterpret. Believers properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching the correct conclusion about the plan of salvation.

Why don't you pray to the Lord and ask Him to reveal what it means to have SAVING FAITH IN CHRIST. Although we are commanded to BELIEVE and will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God. If you ever come to truly REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel, then the blinders will be removed and you will be able to say (just as I was able to say several years ago) now I get it and now I KNOW that I have eternal life (1 John 5:13). Praise God!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We become children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Romans 8:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Likewise, Abraham became the friend of GOD through faith. If he had failed to obey the command to do the outward sign of circumcision, he would have broken covenant and ceased to be GOD's friend.

Since water baptism is the outward sign of spiritual circumcision, one has to wonder if those who spend so much time poo pooing water baptism's importance aren't in fact teaching against a commandment of GOD.

 

[plaintalk]

One Baptism # 259
What semantics problem? Paul clearly stated that we obey the gospel by believing the gospel (Romans 10:16). Choosing to believe the gospel is an act of obedience, but apparently you seem to think otherwise or else you are simply determined to "add" works to the gospel. Again, there is a difference between the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel and becoming saved and multiple acts of obedience/works which FOLLOW believing the gospel after having been saved through faith, which these works are then produced "out of faith." You don't seem to understand the difference.

Response:
However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "Lord,who has believed our report?" Rom. 10: 16 NASB
The NASB does not equate obeying with believing. That is not a necessary inference; Isaiah is saying, don’t be surprised if those who do not believe, don’t obey. (Heb. 3: 18, 19) It is entirely possible to believe the gospel for years and then obey it later in life.
It is commonly understood that faith involves the mind and heart (Acts 8: 37) and is not visible, whereas obedience to God involves the mind and the heart (Rom. 6: 17) and produces a visible, demonstrable change in conduct. Thus we believe the gospel when we acknowledge that Christ died for our sin, was buried and arose on the third day. We obey the gospel when we obey from the heart that form of teaching (Rom. 6: 17, 18)—death, burial, resurrection—to which we are committed (believed) (Rom 6: 3-7), freeing us from sin. We obey the gospel when we are baptized into Christ and into His death. Our old self is crucified with Him; we are buried in baptism with Him so that we might arise with Him into newness of life.

Why would we choose to obey the gospel unless we already believe that God exists, Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose and He rewards those who seek Him. Why would we say that we choose to believe when the Scriptures tell us that faith is a work of God, that God opens the heart of man to respond, that faith is a gift of God and by the grace of God. Why would Jesus say that he who has believed the gospel and has been baptized shall be saved? Was He adding works to the gospel? There are many things that I don’t understand so please help me out by answering these questions. God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

One Baptism # 259
What semantics problem? Paul clearly stated that we obey the gospel by believing the gospel (Romans 10:16). Choosing to believe the gospel is an act of obedience, but apparently you seem to think otherwise or else you are simply determined to "add" works to the gospel. Again, there is a difference between the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel and becoming saved and multiple acts of obedience/works which FOLLOW believing the gospel after having been saved through faith, which these works are then produced "out of faith." You don't seem to understand the difference.

Do you still not understand the difference at all?

Response:
However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Rom. 10: 16 NASB
The NASB does not equate obeying with believing.

Refusing to heed/obey the good news/the gospel by refusing to believe the gospel is disobedience.

That is not a necessary inference; Isaiah is saying, don’t be surprised if those who do not believe, don’t obey. (Heb. 3: 18, 19)

Those who don't believe the gospel have not obeyed the gospel. Further continued disobedience is also a manifestation of unbelief.

It is entirely possible to believe the gospel for years and then obey it later in life.

That makes no sense at all. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

It is commonly understood that faith involves the mind and heart (Acts 8: 37) and is not visible, whereas obedience to God involves the mind and the heart (Rom. 6: 17) and produces a visible, demonstrable change in conduct. Thus we believe the gospel when we acknowledge that Christ died for our sin, was buried and arose on the third day. We obey the gospel when we obey from the heart that form of teaching (Rom. 6: 17, 18)—death, burial, resurrection—to which we are committed (believed) (Rom 6: 3-7), freeing us from sin.

We obey from the heart that form of teaching/obey the gospel and receive salvation when we choose to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16).

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness.. *Unto righteousness = saved.

*Compare 1 Peter 1:22 - "purified your souls in obeying the truth" with Acts 15:9 - "purified their hearts by faith."

We obey the gospel when we are baptized into Christ and into His death. Our old self is crucified with Him; we are buried in baptism with Him so that we might arise with Him into newness of life.

False. Water baptism is the PICTURE, not the reality of being crucified with Him and raised with Him into newness of life. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel "prior to receiving water baptism."

Why would we choose to obey the gospel unless we already believe that God exists, Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose and He rewards those who seek Him.

We must first believe that God exists and that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" before we can believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and receiving eternal life.

Why would we say that we choose to believe when the Scriptures tell us that faith is a work of God, that God opens the heart of man to respond, that faith is a gift of God and by the grace of God.

Referring to faith as the work of God does not mean that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Jesus was basically saying, this is what God requires, that you believe in Him in whom He has sent. Jesus was not teaching works salvation. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we still must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God, yet we must choose to respond.

Why would Jesus say that he who has believed the gospel and has been baptized shall be saved?

Why did Jesus not mention baptism in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements in connection with receiving eternal life? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

Was He adding works to the gospel?

No, He was simply talking about general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized. Jesus did not say that whoever is not baptized will not be saved. To the contrary, Jesus said: John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. You need to quit building your doctrine on partial verses and read it all, then properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

There are many things that I don’t understand so please help me out by answering these questions. God bless.

I answered your questions. Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

One baptism # 259
From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and IS NOT BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9).
Response:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith.” (Eph. 2: 8) We can certainly agree on that statement. However I cannot agree with those who claim salvation is by grace through faith alone, as there is no passage in the entire Bible that makes that statement. In fact there is one passage that states that we are not justified by faith alone. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2: 24) James had previously asked a question which indicates that Abraham, in some sense, was justified by works when he offered Isaac. He goes on to explain that Abraham’s faith was working with his works (offering up Isaac) and as a result Abraham’s faith was perfected or completed. This certainly opens the thought that if we are saved by grace through faith, there might be factors working with our faith, contributing to our salvation. Of course if this is true then we can categorically state that salvation is not by grace through faith alone.

As we read the Scriptures, we find that there several factors that are said to save. These include:
Calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 2: 21; Rom. 10: 13)
Repentance (2 Cor. 7: 10)
Baptism (Mark 16: 15, 16; 1 Peter 3: 21)
Confessing the name of Jesus (Rom. 10: 10)
Obedience (Heb. 5: 9)
Hope (Rom. 8: 24)
The washing of regeneration (Titus 3: 5)
The problem: (1) we have a list of factors other than faith that are said to save.
(2) we have Eph. 2: 9 that states that states that salvation is not of works.
(3) we have statements that works of the law (Gal. 2: 16) and works of righteousness (Titus 3: 5) do not save.
(4) we have Paul’s statement that Abraham was not justified by works. (Rom. 4: 2)
(5) we have James statements that Abraham was in some sense justified by works, never denying that we live by faith. (James 2: 20- 24)
(6) we have a list of some of Abraham’s works with the acknowledgment that he obeyed by faith. (Heb. 11: 8- 17)
(7) there are works of faith, labors of love and the steadfastness of hope in our lives. (1 Thess. 1: 3)

Solution: There are two categories of works under discussion; Paul was speaking of works of the law and deeds done in righteousness when he said that neither Abraham or Christians are saved or justified by works; James, on the other hand, was speaking of works of faith, that do work with faith and perfect faith. We are saved and justified by a perfected faith. Until we are able to recognize this, we will have a distorted view of salvation. God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

One Baptism #259
Romans 8:24 does not teach that if our faith is genuine, but we don't have enough hope, we can't be saved. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for... (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
Response:
Paul tells us that , “But now abide faith, hope and love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” (1 Cor. 13: 13) IMO Paul is telling us that after the extraordinary spiritual gifts have ceased, faith, hope and love will continue on in this present life; for these three are necessary and sufficient for salvation at all times. Faith provides the access to God’s grace and our walk with God, hope provides the steadfastness to continue on and love shows forth the virtues of the grace we have received through faith in living a life of obedience to God and usefulness and good will toward man. It is a grave and disastrous error to suppose that any positive relationship with God can be achieved and maintained except by these three working together. This is especially true of faith for we read that the person who has faith but his life is not controlled by love, is nothing (1 Cor. 13: 2) and that faith without works of faith, or the obedience of faith, is dead and useless. (James 2: 17, 20) We read that hope both purifies (1 John 3: 3) and saves (Rom. 8: 24), working together with faith and love. God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

One Baptism #259
Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith plus love. Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. We won't need faith and hope in heaven. Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that faith is insufficient to save us without our best efforts to love. All genuine BELIEVERS have love. Why? Because we receive the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we BELIEVED the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).
Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that salvation is based on the merits of our best efforts to love. You are turning this into salvation by works.
Response:
Yes, a meaningful faith works through love (Gal. 5: 6) but a person who has all faith, so as to remove mountains, but does not love, is nothing. (1 Cor. 13: 2) How shall we express these truths? IMO, it is best to say that we are saved by faith which works through love. By doing so we keep the emphasis on faith but at the same time show that love is a necessary and essential contributing factor. IMO. we are not saved by faith alone; we are saved by a perfected. Both love (1 John 2: 5) and faith are perfected by works of faith (the obedience of faith. (James 2: 22), keeping His word.
You speak of a “genuine believer” but don’t define the term; the Scriptures don’t use the term either. To me a genuine believer would be a saved and justified believer, a person whose faith is mingled with both love and hope and has been perfected by the obedience of faith.

A lawyer asked Jesus what he should do to inherit eternal life. (Luke 10: 25- 28) Jesus responded with a question, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you? The lawyer answered, “ You should love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” Jesus said, “You have answered correctly; do this and you shall live.” Was Jesus teaching salvation by works? James tells us that God has promised a crown of life to those that love. (James 1: 12) John tells us that those who love have passed from death to life because we love. (1 John 3: 14) God bless.

 

[roaringkitten]

Plaintalk, let's make this simple. The Bible says:

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 1:3

"Common salvation" means one isn't saved by faith, while another is saved by faith and water baptism, while another is saved by faith and babbling 10 hail mary's, etc....It means every soul alive is saved one way, a common way. If faith and baptism is required, then every soul that ever existed must have faith and be water baptized to be saved, no exceptions. Problem with this thinking is the thief on the cross was not baptized. By your thinking the thief must have died lost!(of course he didn't die lost-Luke 23:43) By your own baptism requirement, I guess that means there is no such thing as a deathbed conversion! I guess that also means no one in a desert can be saved either. I guess that also means no one can be saved in the arctic because most of the water is simply freezing cold or solid ice! I could go on and on.

BTW, the word "baptism" doesn't always refer to "water" in the Word(ie: 1 Cor 10:2). You need to stop believing water washes your sins away and trust on the blood of the Lamb, for it is only His blood that washes sins away!

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" Rev 1:5

 

[mailmandan]

One baptism # 259
From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and IS NOT BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Amen! Are you beginning to see the light yet at all?

Response:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith.” (Eph. 2: 8) We can certainly agree on that statement. However I cannot agree with those who claim salvation is by grace through faith alone, as there is no passage in the entire Bible that makes that statement.

You don't agree with that statement because you "add" works to salvation through faith. The Bible clearly teaches in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). You don't need to add the word "alone" next to belief/faith in each of these passages in order to figure out that the words belief/faith "stand alone" in connection with receiving salvation. Do these passages of scripture say faith "plus something else?" NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone. Not in Christ "plus works" but in CHRIST ALONE.

In fact there is one passage that states that we are not justified by faith alone. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2: 24)

I've already explained this to you before but you are still not listening. James is not saying that we are saved by faith and works here. James 2:24 has to be the most misunderstood verse in the Bible. This verse is misinterpreted by Roman Catholics, Mormons, those who attend the church of Christ and other "works salvationists." In the first place, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

*In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but he has no works (to back up his claim). Where is the evidence? This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *Please listen closely - *James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! *What a genuine believer means by salvation through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone (Ephesians 2:8,9) and what James means by an empty profession of faith that remains alone (barren of works) is NOT the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

The harmony of Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 5:1). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). *Please pay close attention - The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

James had previously asked a question which indicates that Abraham, in some sense, was justified by works when he offered Isaac.

As I already showed you. Abraham was justified by works in a declarative sense, "shown to be righteous," not in a legal sense, "accounted as righteous." Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6 when he BELIEVED God many years before his work of offering up Isaac in Genesis 22. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness."

He goes on to explain that Abraham’s faith was working with his works (offering up Isaac) and as a result Abraham’s faith was perfected or completed.

I already explained to you what perfected or completed faith means and it doesn't mean salvation by works, but it does mean to bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar and fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

This certainly opens the thought that if we are saved by grace through faith, there might be factors working with our faith, contributing to our salvation.

Works do not contribute to our salvation. Works do not help Christ save us, as if His finished work of redemption is insufficient to save us. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine saving faith in Christ, but are not the essence of faith or the means of our salvation. Meditate on that until it sinks in.

Of course if this is true then we can categorically state that salvation is not by grace through faith alone.

If salvation is not by grace through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone, then Paul clearly would have said that we are saved by grace through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 but that is NOT what Paul said. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone and NOT BY WORKS. This means that believers are trusting in Christ alone for salvation and not in works.

As we read the Scriptures, we find that there several factors that are said to save. These include:
Calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 2: 21; Rom. 10: 13)
Repentance (2 Cor. 7: 10)
Baptism (Mark 16: 15, 16; 1 Peter 3: 21)
Confessing the name of Jesus (Rom. 10: 10)
Obedience (Heb. 5: 9)
Hope (Rom. 8: 24)
The washing of regeneration (Titus 3: 5)
The problem: (1) we have a list of factors other than faith that are said to save.
(2) we have Eph. 2: 9 that states that states that salvation is not of works.
(3) we have statements that works of the law (Gal. 2: 16) and works of righteousness (Titus 3: 5) do not save.
(4) we have Paul’s statement that Abraham was not justified by works. (Rom. 4: 2)
(5) we have James statements that Abraham was in some sense justified by works, never denying that we live by faith. (James 2: 20- 24)
(6) we have a list of some of Abraham’s works with the acknowledgment that he obeyed by faith. (Heb. 11: 8- 17)
(7) there are works of faith, labors of love and the steadfastness of hope in our lives. (1 Thess. 1: 3)

I have already explained these scriptures to you numerous times before, but the truth continues to go right over your head. You remind me of a trained parrot who is only capable of mimicking or "parroting off" what he has been taught to say, but doesn't actually think for himself. Go back and read posts #259, 266 and 268 again and actually thoroughly read them this time and please prayerfully consider the truth.

Solution: There are two categories of works under discussion; Paul was speaking of works of the law and deeds done in righteousness when he said that neither Abraham or Christians are saved or justified by works; James, on the other hand, was speaking of works of faith, that do work with faith and perfect faith.

That is not the solution and this false teaching of "saved by these works, but just not those works" is also taught in the Roman Catholic church and the Mormon church and by other "works salvationists" in a desperate attempt to "get around" the truth that man is saved by grace through faith and NOT BY WORKS in general. Paul did not say that man is saved through faith and works of faith in Ephesians 2:8, but simply through faith. You also cannot dissect works of faith/good works from the moral aspect of the law and then teach that we are saved by "these" works, but just not "those" works:

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me which good works a Christian could do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

Either we perfectly keep the law (ALL OF IT) which includes the moral aspect of the law, and we are saved by works (impossible!) or else we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and receive His imputed righteousness (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). There is no middle ground. It's not Christ did most of it but we did some of it. The good works of a believer are not added as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us. We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24). Salvation through faith in Christ is the alternative to salvation by works, yet you stubbornly choose to trust in works and not exclusively in Christ for salvation. Solution: REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel. It's time for you to let go of your works and take hold of Christ through FAITH.

We are saved and justified by a perfected faith.

Abraham was saved and his faith was accounted as righteous/justified/legal sense in Genesis 15:6 (Also see Romans 4:2-3) when he believed God, many years before he offered up Isaac on the altar and his faith was said to be perfected in Genesis 22 and he was also said to be justified by works, yet this was in a declarative sense/shown to be righteous.

Until we are able to recognize this, we will have a distorted view of salvation. God bless.

Until you are able to recognize this, you will continue to have a distorted view of salvation. May the Lord open your eyes to the truth and may you choose to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[mailmandan]

One Baptism #259
Romans 8:24 does not teach that if our faith is genuine, but we don't have enough hope, we can't be saved. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for... (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

Amen! That is crystal clear.

Response:
Paul tells us that , “But now abide faith, hope and love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” (1 Cor. 13: 13) IMO Paul is telling us that after the extraordinary spiritual gifts have ceased, faith, hope and love will continue on in this present life; for these three are necessary and sufficient for salvation at all times. Faith provides the access to God’s grace and our walk with God, hope provides the steadfastness to continue on and love shows forth the virtues of the grace we have received through faith in living a life of obedience to God and usefulness and good will toward man.

Paul is not teaching that we are saved through faith and obedience/works and hope and love here (as if one has faith and hope but no love or faith and love but no hope or faith but never obeys/oxymoron and won't be saved etc..). If Paul was trying to add additional requirements to salvation through faith, then he would have stressed these alleged additional requirements in Ephesians 2:8,9. Paul is stressing the importance of love though and as I already explained to you that faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith + love. Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. We won't need faith and hope in heaven.

It is a grave and disastrous error to suppose that any positive relationship with God can be achieved and maintained except by these three working together.

It is a grave and disastrous error to suppose that our relationship with God can be achieved and maintained by works. "Works salvation" is NO SALVATION AT ALL.

This is especially true of faith for we read that the person who has faith but his life is not controlled by love, is nothing (1 Cor. 13: 2)

Paul is simply stressing the importance of love, not teaching salvation through faith + love. You could never love "enough" to earn your salvation. Salvation is not based on the merits of our performance. Love characterizes those who are truly born again though.

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us.

Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

and that faith without works of faith, or the obedience of faith, is dead and useless. (James 2: 17, 20)

It's dead and useless because it's not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith. SAYS/CLAIMS to have faith but has no works (James 2:14). Faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith but BECAUSE it's a living faith; just as a tree does not produce fruit in order to become a living tree but BECAUSE it's a living tree. You have this backwards.

We read that hope both purifies (1 John 3: 3) and saves (Rom. 8: 24), working together with faith and love. God bless.

I already explained this to you. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. Romans 8:24 does not teach that if our faith is genuine, but we don't have enough hope, we can't be saved (oxymoron). Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

***If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).***

Faith, hope and love are inseparable for those who are truly born of God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Abraham was saved and his faith was accounted as righteous/justified/legal sense in Genesis 15:6 (Also see Romans 4:2-3) when he believed God, many years before he offered up Isaac on the altar and his faith was said to be perfected in Genesis 22 and he was also said to be justified by works, yet this was in a declarative sense/shown to be righteous.

Until you are able to recognize this, you will continue to have a distorted view of salvation. May the Lord open your eyes to the truth and may you choose to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel. I will continue to pray for you.

Forensic justification and empirical justification have to go together. One can't exist without the other. That's plainly taught in the bible.

You spend so many hours parsing words to uphold your insidious form of inverse legalism (which is still legalism). It would be so much easier and much more edifying to simply teach people to get water baptized because that's what the bible teaches. GOD wants obedience to his voice, not straining at theological gnats.

 

[mailmandan]

One Baptism #259
Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith plus love. Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. We won't need faith and hope in heaven. Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that faith is insufficient to save us without our best efforts to love. All genuine BELIEVERS have love. Why? Because we receive the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we BELIEVED the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that salvation is based on the merits of our best efforts to love. You are turning this into salvation by works.

Amen! It's very simple! The sad part is that your faith is flawed from the start because you trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone. Hope and love is in vain for those who don't have genuine faith.

Response:
Yes, a meaningful faith works through love (Gal. 5: 6) but a person who has all faith, so as to remove mountains, but does not love, is nothing. (1 Cor. 13: 2)

No such person exists. Paul is using hyperbole to stress the importance of love and you missed it.

How shall we express these truths? IMO, it is best to say that we are saved by faith which works through love.

Faith works through love BECAUSE we are saved, not to become saved. You just don't get it.

By doing so we keep the emphasis on faith but at the same time show that love is a necessary and essential contributing factor.

Love does not contribute to helping Jesus save us (as if He needs help), but love is the demonstrative evidence of those who are born of God (1 John 4:7).

IMO. we are not saved by faith alone;

We are saved through faith in Christ alone, hence NOT BY WORKS.

we are saved by a perfected.

Abraham was already saved in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:2-3) many years BEFORE he offered up Isaac in Genesis 22 and his faith was said to be perfected in James 2:22. You continue to put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works. Typical unbeliever.

Both love (1 John 2: 5) and faith are perfected by works of faith (the obedience of faith. (James 2: 22), keeping His word.

Love and faith "perfected by works" of does not mean that we are saved by works of love that are produced out of faith. You are so confused! For the umpteenth time, "made perfect or completed by works" means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved (many years after he believed God and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness) based on the merits of his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. It's not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT.

You speak of a “genuine believer” but don’t define the term; the Scriptures don’t use the term either. To me a genuine believer would be a saved and justified believer, a person whose faith is mingled with both love and hope and has been perfected by the obedience of faith.

I have defined the term "genuine believer" many times. A genuine believer trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and not in works. The Scriptures use the term "believer" many times and describe those who are not genuine believers. FAITH IS the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1) and the love of God has been poured out in the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to them (Romans 5:5) so of course genuine faith is not without hope and love. We are not saved by obedience/works which is produced out of faith. Obedience of faith does not mean that we are saved by faith and obedience/works which follow. and perfected does not mean saved by works. *This remains your achilles heel.

A lawyer asked Jesus what he should do to inherit eternal life. (Luke 10: 25- 28) Jesus responded with a question, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you? The lawyer answered, “ You should love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” Jesus said, “You have answered correctly; do this and you shall live.”

This is law, not gospel. Did this man love the Lord his God with all of his heart, soul and strength and his neighbor as himself sinless and perfectly? NO!

Was Jesus teaching salvation by works?

NO. Before showing him the way to life, Jesus wanted to impress on the young man both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation by his own merit. This should have elicited a response about the impossibility of obeying the law perfectly, but instead the young man confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20). This young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation (and so did you), and continued to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could never part with his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. *What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? Was Jesus teaching salvation by works?

James tells us that God has promised a crown of life to those that love. (James 1: 12)

Those who are born of God love Him (1 John 4:7). Unbelievers/those who are not born of God do not love Him.

John tells us that those who love have passed from death to life because we love. (1 John 3: 14) God bless.

You need to read that verse again. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have passed (already passed) from death to life, (demonstrative evidence) because we love the brethren. We love the brethren because we have passed from death to life and not the other way around. You have this backwards because you teach salvation by works.

Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

One Baptism #259
Faith that saves will be accompanied by works. Faith that produces no works is an empty profession of faith/dead faith, not genuine faith that is alive in Christ.
This is where you crash and burn as you cross the line into salvation by works.

Works of faith "works done out of faith" are still works and we are not saved by works, but by grace through faith.
Response:
In Hebrews 10: 38 we read that the righteous one will live by faith. This is taken from Habakkuk 2: 4, “But the righteous will live by his faith.” As we continue on to Hebrews 11 we find that before the Law was given, God’s people were living by faith. And even after the Law, people lived by faith; and both before and after the Law, this faith involved works, works of faith. But in Hebrews 11 our attention is drawn to Abraham because God tested his faith. Abraham was commanded to offer up Isaac, his son, as a burnt offering. As he stretched out his hand to take the knife to slay Isaac, the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, stopping him and telling him, “for now I know that you fear God.” Obedience was the proof of his faith. James says that the Scripture which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” was fulfilled that day. Even so the Lord tests our faith today when he commands us all to repent and be baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. When we obey Jesus Christ, we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ, cleansing our conscience from sin. (1 Peter 1: 2; Heb. 9: 14) As our bodies are washed with pure water, our hearts are sprinkled clean with the blood of our Savior. Praise God for His goodness and mercy. If that sounds like salvation by works, I can only pray to God to open our hearts to the truth as we deny ourselves. God bless.