I really don't see the contradiction here. Let's suppose the saints are raptured in the twinkling of an eye immediately after the dead are raised, super fast, and they are up there descending with Jesus.. That doesn't mean people won't be able to see Jesus. It doesn't say that Jesus disappears at the twinkling of an eye.
The "Rapture"?
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Two questions:
Do you think only people who believe like you do about the rapture will be raptured?
Can you give any scripture that gives clear teaching, or even a solid hint of a pre-trib rapture?
Teaching about the rapture and reading pre-trib into verses that don't teach pre-trib aren't the same thing.
Do you think only people who believe like you do about the rapture will be raptured?
Can you give any scripture that gives clear teaching, or even a solid hint of a pre-trib rapture?
Teaching about the rapture and reading pre-trib into verses that don't teach pre-trib aren't the same thing.
There are only two resurrections. Popeye is wrong.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father...
1) Christ Jesus
2) Everyone else
John 6: [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11: [SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Mat 13: the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend... [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
The resurrection happens after the Great Tribulation AKA Time of Trouble for Israel as we see here:
Dan 12: And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
The resurrection is the last day of the age.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father...
1) Christ Jesus
2) Everyone else
John 6: [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11: [SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Mat 13: the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend... [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
The resurrection happens after the Great Tribulation AKA Time of Trouble for Israel as we see here:
Dan 12: And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
The resurrection is the last day of the age.
A
I had to chuckle today after going threw this afternoons debate on this topic I get in the car to go pick up my wife an I turn on the radio an I just happen to tune into "moody radio" and coming up at the 4pm show was this very topic were discussing then after listening for a few minutes hearing this man I heard how he's promoting his new book where he compiled all the different views on this topic and share's them so during the program callers call in an ask relating questions of said topic... thinking there might be some insight here but not to my surprise all you hear about is his view and how he interprets what he reads then telling the callers "that's not what's being said there" referring to a certain passage and I thought wow its like I never left the house...lol (meaning here on line) then it turned to a interesting statement of how this topic is basically number1 on the list to where heavy argumentative volleyball like debates occur and the host asked why is this he replied because some believers think that this is a primary doctrine when it should be on a secondary level to be not that important so I thought to a pre-triber of course is isn't cuz their not involved in the after math but a post triber it would cuz it deals with things to come and preparedness, so after a total of 6 calls during an hour program (talk about controlling the questions) they sounded all pre-audio recorded his last question was asked to him ( what "if" by for some reason that your view of pre-trib could be wrong, how would that impact the church? he replied " well will just keep on doing what were doing already" and I was like wow nothing would change in his mind... moral of this story is if this topic has been debated for hundreds of years and will still be debated if ppl choose to but to respect their opinion as I believe I have been on here,and we will all find out soon if one or the other happens. last and most important thing I heard was in between segments of the program they played tiny questioners asking random ppl walking on the street how they think the world will end... I would have to say 80% of the people had no idea and said something funny like the sun disappearing or some sorts....so hopefully as were all typing on here were also finding time to tell someone about Jesus when were out and about... ill be back tomorrow going to spend some time with the family Good nite all...God Bless...
P
I hope most acknowledge the concept of a rapture.
The question is it's timing. My view is through the bride/ groom prism. So the GT is lower on my list of focus.
The lot and Noah comparisons,along with Jesus' words at the last supper,show what God has on his mind concerning his family.
He has plans. I am looking hard into his plan,and not what I may hope or think.
But besides that,there is a gathering in rev 14 (or so) that fits only a pretrib rapture,because you guys are the ones magnifying resurrections,and that passage makes post trib rapture a literal impossibility
The question is it's timing. My view is through the bride/ groom prism. So the GT is lower on my list of focus.
The lot and Noah comparisons,along with Jesus' words at the last supper,show what God has on his mind concerning his family.
He has plans. I am looking hard into his plan,and not what I may hope or think.
But besides that,there is a gathering in rev 14 (or so) that fits only a pretrib rapture,because you guys are the ones magnifying resurrections,and that passage makes post trib rapture a literal impossibility
P
A close study of the Scripture will show that tribulation and wrath are very different.
God's children have suffered tribulation from time to time.
Many in the Middle East are suffering much tribulation today.
Why do you think you or me are so rightious that we may escape tribulation.
Yes, we will escape the wrath of God that is poured out with the seven vials after Jesus returns at the seventh/last trump.
God's children have suffered tribulation from time to time.
Many in the Middle East are suffering much tribulation today.
Why do you think you or me are so rightious that we may escape tribulation.
Yes, we will escape the wrath of God that is poured out with the seven vials after Jesus returns at the seventh/last trump.
Hi brother Popeye,
So the first resurrection is Jesus and the Patriarchs.
The next is the main one. 1 Thess, Mt 25
the 144000 is the Jewish first fruits of Rev 14.
Then the harvest of the ripe fruits ( I'm not sure who this group is supposed to be you didn't say)
Do I have this right?
Shouldn't there be more raptures (resurrections) after this? (return of Jesus-begin mill, end mill?)
So the first resurrection is Jesus and the Patriarchs.
The next is the main one. 1 Thess, Mt 25
the 144000 is the Jewish first fruits of Rev 14.
Then the harvest of the ripe fruits ( I'm not sure who this group is supposed to be you didn't say)
Do I have this right?
Shouldn't there be more raptures (resurrections) after this? (return of Jesus-begin mill, end mill?)
Paul didn't stutter and he wasn't confused. 1 Cor 15 is clear. There are 2 resurrections of believers. Christ back in AD 27-33 then everyone else at HIS coming, which by the way is after the GT as He Himself tells us.
I don't know if you realize this or not but Christians are being beheaded right now in the Middle east. But, this is not the GT as the GT begins with the Abomination of Desolation and the attack on Israel. The GT applies only to Israel and is NOT the Wrath of God which comes later. What's happening now is "tribulation" *small t*.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
The Church is under attack everywhere. In many places our brothers and sisters are being slaughtered. Is there a nation now which embraces Christians and our values? Not even in the United States. We are still in the "Beginnings of Sorrows", small "t' tribulation. Christians are appointed for tribulation, we are not appointed to God's wrath. This is a distinction lost on you.
Christians in Syria, Iraq, Egypt etc that we've seen beheaded are mentioned here. Can it get any worse for them than it is now?
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.
These did not worship/serve the beast (Ottoman Empire 1299-1922) where 50 million Christians were killed or it's copy (image), the mortal wound having been healed, now.
The first resurrection spoken of by John in Rev 20 deals with the righteous who will not face the second death. The second resurrection is for the condemned who do face the second (spiritual) death which they receive at judgment.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power...
Two resurrections:
Dan 12: [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Rev 20: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 6: And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
I don't know if you realize this or not but Christians are being beheaded right now in the Middle east. But, this is not the GT as the GT begins with the Abomination of Desolation and the attack on Israel. The GT applies only to Israel and is NOT the Wrath of God which comes later. What's happening now is "tribulation" *small t*.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
The Church is under attack everywhere. In many places our brothers and sisters are being slaughtered. Is there a nation now which embraces Christians and our values? Not even in the United States. We are still in the "Beginnings of Sorrows", small "t' tribulation. Christians are appointed for tribulation, we are not appointed to God's wrath. This is a distinction lost on you.
Christians in Syria, Iraq, Egypt etc that we've seen beheaded are mentioned here. Can it get any worse for them than it is now?
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.
These did not worship/serve the beast (Ottoman Empire 1299-1922) where 50 million Christians were killed or it's copy (image), the mortal wound having been healed, now.
The first resurrection spoken of by John in Rev 20 deals with the righteous who will not face the second death. The second resurrection is for the condemned who do face the second (spiritual) death which they receive at judgment.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power...
Two resurrections:
Dan 12: [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Rev 20: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 6: And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
No, and nothing in the selection of my words that you quoted could logically lead to that conclusion either. I do believe that Christians will go through suffering, but I do not believe that Christians are 'appointed unto wrath' or that the saints who go through the great tribulation are 'appointed unto wrath.' If God is not angry at them, then they do not experience the wrath of God. They receive a blessing.
This is why it is considered non essential teaching. If as the bible teaches Christ is coming for His church in the clouds then all of His church will be gathered unto Him in the clouds even those who cannot or will not grasp the concept.
You do not need to believe in the rapture to be saved. You will endure a lot of unnecessary anxiety but you will still be saved and raptured with the believers.
You already know the scripture.
1 Thess 4:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Comfort one another.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You do not need to believe in the rapture to be saved. You will endure a lot of unnecessary anxiety but you will still be saved and raptured with the believers.
You already know the scripture.
1 Thess 4:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Comfort one another.
For the cause of Christ
Roger