The "Rapture"?
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I believe in 2 resurrections for believers. Christ the firstfruits, then everyone else at HIS coming. The 2 churches are part of the second resurrection. The "BEAST" kills the 2 churches as its doing now. The beast first wages war with, then overcomes, then kills.
Remember the correct order:
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them..
No wonder those on earth are terrified. This apparently is a bit of a process.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
Their enemies have time to understand what's going on. Within the hour there is a great earthquake.
Remember the correct order:
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them..
No wonder those on earth are terrified. This apparently is a bit of a process.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
Their enemies have time to understand what's going on. Within the hour there is a great earthquake.
It is really the Catching away of the Body of Christ, that is, the Pre-Time of Jacob's Trouble Catching away of the Body Of Christ.
Since the Time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th Week) is not for the Church, but rather it is for Israel. That is why it is called the Time of Jacob's trouble. Who is Jacob, Jacob is Israel.
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[TD] Psa 81:4 (KJV)[/TD]
[TD]For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob.[/TD]
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[TD]
[TD]And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:[/TD]
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Not really. When Christ comes for His church only the church sees Him. When Christ returns in His second advent the whole world sees Him. His first advent was announced to the whole world and Israel rejected Him. The second advent they will receive Him. The church has already received Him and is ready to be joined with Him.
One prophecy to Israel and one promise to the church.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
One prophecy to Israel and one promise to the church.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The 2 churches (Roman Catholic - west) and (Greek Orthodox - east) are the two witnesses. These are the two oldest, original churches tracing their roots back to the Apostles. They were given power at Pentecost:
Rev 11: [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power to my two witnesses...
Acts 2: [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
Rev 11: [SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies.
This was the beginning of the church. Christianity spread like wildfire across Asia and Europe and nothing could stop it. Christianity spread through the Roman Empire, both east and west. The below video link (and there are many others and I'm not endorsing) shows the spread of Christianity then the spread of Islam which replaced Christianity in this part of the world.
The spread of Christianity vs. Islam over the last 2,000 years
The BEAST, which is the Islamic alliance to the north, first wages war with the church. This is Beast is the Ottoman Empire, the "clay" of Daniel mixed with the Iron of Rome. This Beast was mortally wounded in 1922 but not before it killed 50 million Christians!! Now the image or copy of this Islamic Beast has returned. Stay tuned.
The Beast has overcomes the church in the above video. Now the remnant of the churches in this part of the world will be killed. Sorry, there will be no rapture to rescue the church from the attacks of Satan but fortunately, the gates of hell will not prevail.
Rev 11: [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power to my two witnesses...
Acts 2: [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
Rev 11: [SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies.
This was the beginning of the church. Christianity spread like wildfire across Asia and Europe and nothing could stop it. Christianity spread through the Roman Empire, both east and west. The below video link (and there are many others and I'm not endorsing) shows the spread of Christianity then the spread of Islam which replaced Christianity in this part of the world.
The spread of Christianity vs. Islam over the last 2,000 years
The BEAST, which is the Islamic alliance to the north, first wages war with the church. This is Beast is the Ottoman Empire, the "clay" of Daniel mixed with the Iron of Rome. This Beast was mortally wounded in 1922 but not before it killed 50 million Christians!! Now the image or copy of this Islamic Beast has returned. Stay tuned.
The Beast has overcomes the church in the above video. Now the remnant of the churches in this part of the world will be killed. Sorry, there will be no rapture to rescue the church from the attacks of Satan but fortunately, the gates of hell will not prevail.
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P
Mat 25 .
It is like the Holy Spirit knew some would skip the concept,so that little story was placed there just to clear up any notion of how Jesus would come for his bride,and who his worthy followers were.
That groom never reached the brides home. She went out to meet him.
Then the clincher. THEY WENT IMMEDIATELY TO THE FATHERS HOUSE.
You guys change that to a u turn.
It is like the Holy Spirit knew some would skip the concept,so that little story was placed there just to clear up any notion of how Jesus would come for his bride,and who his worthy followers were.
That groom never reached the brides home. She went out to meet him.
Then the clincher. THEY WENT IMMEDIATELY TO THE FATHERS HOUSE.
You guys change that to a u turn.
I'm sure you have some pre-trib spin on the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. If the Father's house is so central to the parable, why doesn't the parable mention the father's house?
Why are your pre-trib arguments based on how you interpret parables instead of direct statements of scripture? Why not look at the timing based on Jesus words?
Look at Matthew 24 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
How is any of this consistent with pre-trib? Notice, the coming of the Son of Man happens AFTER the great tribulation. Jesus is talking to His disciples and He tells them not to believe if someone claims that 'here is Christ, or there' during that time. So how does that fit at all with the idea of a rapture before Jesus' coming? The elect are gathered AFTER the great tribulation in this passage.
Why not just go with direct statements of scripture, direct statements of Jesus, and direct statements of Paul. You've illustrated that you can interpret parables and allegoricalize statements like 'come up hither' to fit with pre-trib. You can read pre-trib ideas into verses, like the verse about him that restraints. But I've asked again and again and again for you to deal with the direct statements of scripture in II Thessalonians 1. I ask you this stuff. You ignore it. Someone mentions 'gleaning' and you post about how it disproves post-trib, without explaining how you interpret or allegoricalize your 'proof' out of the verse you have in mind.
Let me ask you how you deal with the scriptures that flatly contradicts pre-trib.
How do you deal with the fact that Jesus has the gathering together of the elect AFTER the tribulation? How do you reconcile that with pre-trib?
The Bible shows us that the dead in Christ rise FIRST, and then the rapture of those who are alive and remain. I Corinthians 15 tells us that they that are Christ's will be made alive 'at His coming.'
If scripture tells us that the dead who are Christ's are made alive 'at His coming' why do you believe it occurs 7 years before His coming?
I Thessalonians tells us that when Jesus comes back, He will give the church rest, when he returns executing vengeance on them that believe not, when He returns to be glorified in His saints. So how do you come up with the church being gone 7 years before Jesus gets back. How does He give the church rest at His coming if they already got the rest the passage speaks of 7 years before? Why would He come to be glorified in His saints if they aren't present?
In other words, how do you reconcile your pre-trib views with these specific verses that contain direct and explicit statements from the Lord Jesus Christ and from Paul?
Why are your pre-trib arguments based on how you interpret parables instead of direct statements of scripture? Why not look at the timing based on Jesus words?
Look at Matthew 24 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
How is any of this consistent with pre-trib? Notice, the coming of the Son of Man happens AFTER the great tribulation. Jesus is talking to His disciples and He tells them not to believe if someone claims that 'here is Christ, or there' during that time. So how does that fit at all with the idea of a rapture before Jesus' coming? The elect are gathered AFTER the great tribulation in this passage.
Why not just go with direct statements of scripture, direct statements of Jesus, and direct statements of Paul. You've illustrated that you can interpret parables and allegoricalize statements like 'come up hither' to fit with pre-trib. You can read pre-trib ideas into verses, like the verse about him that restraints. But I've asked again and again and again for you to deal with the direct statements of scripture in II Thessalonians 1. I ask you this stuff. You ignore it. Someone mentions 'gleaning' and you post about how it disproves post-trib, without explaining how you interpret or allegoricalize your 'proof' out of the verse you have in mind.
Let me ask you how you deal with the scriptures that flatly contradicts pre-trib.
How do you deal with the fact that Jesus has the gathering together of the elect AFTER the tribulation? How do you reconcile that with pre-trib?
The Bible shows us that the dead in Christ rise FIRST, and then the rapture of those who are alive and remain. I Corinthians 15 tells us that they that are Christ's will be made alive 'at His coming.'
If scripture tells us that the dead who are Christ's are made alive 'at His coming' why do you believe it occurs 7 years before His coming?
I Thessalonians tells us that when Jesus comes back, He will give the church rest, when he returns executing vengeance on them that believe not, when He returns to be glorified in His saints. So how do you come up with the church being gone 7 years before Jesus gets back. How does He give the church rest at His coming if they already got the rest the passage speaks of 7 years before? Why would He come to be glorified in His saints if they aren't present?
In other words, how do you reconcile your pre-trib views with these specific verses that contain direct and explicit statements from the Lord Jesus Christ and from Paul?
Christ (the Bridegroom) is coming to reign on earth. He isn't taking us to reign with Him in heaven.
Rev 5: [SUP]10 [/SUP]And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”
Rev 2: [SUP]25 [/SUP]But hold fast what you have till I come. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— [SUP]27 [/SUP]‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron...
Notice Jesus tells us to hold fast until He comes? Now here's the kicker. We are to get power to rule the nations. Where are we to rule them from? Heaven or earth?
Rev 5: [SUP]10 [/SUP]And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”
Rev 2: [SUP]25 [/SUP]But hold fast what you have till I come. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— [SUP]27 [/SUP]‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron...
Notice Jesus tells us to hold fast until He comes? Now here's the kicker. We are to get power to rule the nations. Where are we to rule them from? Heaven or earth?
Scripture says:
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Do not let your hearts be troubled:
If the church was to be here on earth during the time of God's wrath, we certainly would be troubled. The fact that Jesus says this demonstrates that the gathering of the church will take place prior to the wrath of God.
My Father’s house has many rooms if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?:
The Father's house could be none other than heaven. Jesus went there, to the Father's house, to prepare a place for us. for he continues saying, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." Where Jesus is would be the Father's house, which is where he was going to prepare those dwelling places for us to take us back to.
The above takes place after we return with Jesus from heaven riding on those white horses wearing our fine linen, white and clean. We go to heaven first, then we return with him to the earth to rule during that thousand years, as well as the great tribulation saints who will be resurrected after he returns to the earth in Rev.20:4-6.
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Do not let your hearts be troubled:
If the church was to be here on earth during the time of God's wrath, we certainly would be troubled. The fact that Jesus says this demonstrates that the gathering of the church will take place prior to the wrath of God.
My Father’s house has many rooms if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?:
The Father's house could be none other than heaven. Jesus went there, to the Father's house, to prepare a place for us. for he continues saying, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." Where Jesus is would be the Father's house, which is where he was going to prepare those dwelling places for us to take us back to.
The above takes place after we return with Jesus from heaven riding on those white horses wearing our fine linen, white and clean. We go to heaven first, then we return with him to the earth to rule during that thousand years, as well as the great tribulation saints who will be resurrected after he returns to the earth in Rev.20:4-6.
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