the two witnesses are God the Father and the Holy Spirit

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tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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No Joke! Just a paradigm shift is necessary. Or it does seem like a joke. I'm only interested in conversing with Bereans. Not those who know it all.
There have been many notable ''Bereans'' throughout Church history. Show me one who has ever thought that the two witnesses in Revelation are the Father and the Holy Spirit Show me from the Bible where that statement can be found.
For your information ''I do not ''know it all'' neither do I need a padigm shift. I get by with the Holy Spirit the Bible and common sense. As for you not conversing with me I wont be losing any sleep over it.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,298
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In response to the title, the only thing I may ask all is to consider the word, witnesses. Common sense should shine great light on who the witnesses are not.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Of course your thought is interesting, but their is no scriptural reason to think that the 2 witness in revelation 11,3 and 17,6 are in flesh coming God father and Holy Spirit.
Hi wolfwint. My two cents..

They come by the spirit of Elijah,(the power or authority of God) the Holy Spirit of God, the anointing Spirit of Christ that dwelt in all of the old testament prophets.

God does not have flesh to offer just as does the antichrist Satan has no flesh as an outward appearance to offer, that a person could put the faith of one , not seen in. . Its why he needs antichrists (many) in respect to the sinful flesh of men.

His , the antichrist, Satan not seen .. The Christian will not put the faith coming from him as the father of lies generates in opposition to the faith of God, in Christ in respect to him, the antichrist. And not the true Christ... seen by obeying his words . The one author and finisher of Christian faith.. .

If you compare with Jesus coming in flesh this is in the scripture clear prepared and explained f.e. John chapter 1. This we cant find for your theory. So far I know it is not really clear who these two are. one meaning is that it is Elia and Henoch, because these to people didnt died. They are both enabled from the Lord Jesus to do that ministrie.
When they depart from this realm under the sun they no longer had any part, in anything here forever more.
They are used as metaphors or shadows in those parables that represent to the promise of the first resurrection...to open their graves and in their souls ( headless bodies) enter the heavenly mansion of many rooms Christ prepared , in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand (the gospel made known by those parables)

On this side of the first century reformation we look back to the same glory that Enoch and Elijah had fulfilled when their graces were opened. Today to be absent of the body is to be present dead asleep waiting t for the second and final resurrection on the last day. Knowing with certainty flesh and blood could never enter heaven. Again Enoch and Elijah were looking ahead by faith as described in 1 Peter below.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,710
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Hi wolfwint. My two cents..

They come by the spirit of Elijah,(the power or authority of God) the Holy Spirit of God, the anointing Spirit of Christ that dwelt in all of the old testament prophets.

God does not have flesh to offer just as does the antichrist Satan has no flesh as an outward appearance to offer, that a person could put the faith of one , not seen in. . Its why he needs antichrists (many) in respect to the sinful flesh of men.

His , the antichrist, Satan not seen .. The Christian will not put the faith coming from him as the father of lies generates in opposition to the faith of God, in Christ in respect to him, the antichrist. And not the true Christ... seen by obeying his words . The one author and finisher of Christian faith.. .



When they depart from this realm under the sun they no longer had any part, in anything here forever more.
They are used as metaphors or shadows in those parables that represent to the promise of the first resurrection...to open their graves and in their souls ( headless bodies) enter the heavenly mansion of many rooms Christ prepared , in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand (the gospel made known by those parables)

On this side of the first century reformation we look back to the same glory that Enoch and Elijah had fulfilled when their graces were opened. Today to be absent of the body is to be present dead asleep waiting t for the second and final resurrection on the last day. Knowing with certainty flesh and blood could never enter heaven. Again Enoch and Elijah were looking ahead by faith as described in 1 Peter below.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Thank you for explaining. As I said, it is an idea which some have, because this 2 persons are the only, according the bible, which seems not died so far in a normal way. I dont know who the witnesses are and it is not so important to know. What i am shure in is, that God Father and the Holy Spirit are not coming into flesh for to be the 2 witness from Reveletion 11!
 
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badger58

Guest
What I see is a foolish guess about a prophecy made by someone that has no clue what Revelation is actually saying.
Foolish guess' are made by foolish people, or by regular people saying foolish things.
Tell me, which are you?
I have loved the scripture for forty years. I have stated my belief from a scriptural reference. 1 John 5:7 states there are three witnesses in heaven. That is a fact! Judgment cannot proceed on the witness of one. That's a fact! It is a law, old and new testament; on the word of two or three witnesses every word shall be established. So if you would care to bring any scripture to refute these facts, I would be happy to stop going forward, but if you can't, and you can't. You can disagree with my conclusion, but not my premise.
It has been said(by whom,I know not) A wise man speaks because he has something to say, but the fool speaks because he has to say something. It is also writen: Wisdom is justified of her children.
Your sharp tongue does lead me to the belief that a Berean spirit is not your strong suit. Peace
 
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badger58

Guest
I have loved the scripture for forty years. I have stated my belief from a scriptural reference. 1 John 5:7 states there are three witnesses in heaven. That is a fact! Judgment cannot proceed on the witness of one. That's a fact! It is a law, old and new testament; on the word of two or three witnesses every word shall be established. So if you would care to bring any scripture to refute these facts, I would be happy to stop going forward, but if you can't, and you can't. You can disagree with my conclusion, but not my premise.
It has been said(by whom,I know not) A wise man speaks because he has something to say, but the fool speaks because he has to say something. It is also writen: Wisdom is justified of her children.
Your sharp tongue does lead me to the belief that a Berean spirit is not your strong suit. Peace
Micah1:2-4 The Father is coming to crush the the Godless ones that would not believe his Son. Again it is written:sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool.
 
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badger58

Guest
Micah1:2-4 The Father is coming to crush the the Godless ones that would not believe his Son. Again it is written:sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool.
Judgment on the Whole Earth in the Day of the Lord


2 “I will sweep away everything
from the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord.
3 “I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea—
and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”[a]


“When I destroy all mankind
on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,
4 “I will stretch out my hand against Judah
and against all who live in Jerusalem.
I will destroy every remnant of Baal worship in this place,
the very names of the idolatrous priests—
5 those who bow down on the roofs
to worship the starry host,
those who bow down and swear by the Lord
and who also swear by Molek,
6 those who turn back from following the Lord
and neither seek the Lord nor inquire of him.”


7 Be silent before the Sovereign Lord,
for the day of the Lord is near.
The Lord has prepared a sacrifice;
he has consecrated those he has invited.


8 “On the day of the Lord’s sacrifice
 
B

badger58

Guest
Judgment on the Whole Earth in the Day of the Lord


2 “I will sweep away everything
from the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord.
3 “I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea—
and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”[a]


“When I destroy all mankind
on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,
4 “I will stretch out my hand against Judah
and against all who live in Jerusalem.
I will destroy every remnant of Baal worship in this place,
the very names of the idolatrous priests—
5 those who bow down on the roofs
to worship the starry host,
those who bow down and swear by the Lord
and who also swear by Molek,
6 those who turn back from following the Lord
and neither seek the Lord nor inquire of him.”


7 Be silent before the Sovereign Lord,
for the day of the Lord is near.
The Lord has prepared a sacrifice;
he has consecrated those he has invited.


8 “On the day of the Lord’s sacrifice

Psa 50:3 Our God H430 shall come, H935 and shall not keep silence: H2790 a fire H784 shall devour H398 before H6440 him, and it shall be very H3966 tempestuous H8175 round about H5439 him.













Psa 50:4 He shall call H7121 to the heavens H8064 from above, H5920 and to the earth, H776 that he may judge H1777 his people. H5971


Psa 50:5 Gather H622 my saints H2623 together unto me; those that have made H3772 a covenant H1285 with me by sacrifice. H2077


Psa 50:6 And the heavens H8064 shall declare H5046 his righteousness: H6664 for God H430 is judge H8199 himself. Selah. H5542


Psa 50:7 Hear, H8085 O my people, H5971 and I will speak; H1696 O Israel, H3478 and I will testify H5749 against thee: I am God, H430 even thy God
 
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badger58

Guest
There have been many notable ''Bereans'' throughout Church history. Show me one who has ever thought that the two witnesses in Revelation are the Father and the Holy Spirit Show me from the Bible where that statement can be found.
For your information ''I do not ''know it all'' neither do I need a padigm shift. I get by with the Holy Spirit the Bible and common sense. As for you not conversing with me I wont be losing any sleep over it.
If you can tell me that, knowing who the two witnesses are, has been settled already and is a dogma in the body of Christ. That everyone agrees with your interpretation of the scriptures(except for me) I will be glad to shut up,(that's what you want right?) but if you can't say that, then I believe I am not wrong in suggesting that Bereans consider different ways the scripture can be interpreted. My two cents. That's the only way I know how to solve a puzzle,biblically speaking. You could look with out buying.
Don't you think the 12 disciples had to do some reevaluating in order to see who Jesus is? May God bless you and grant you peace
 
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badger58

Guest
If you can tell me that, knowing who the two witnesses are, has been settled already and is a dogma in the body of Christ. That everyone agrees with your interpretation of the scriptures(except for me) I will be glad to shut up,(that's what you want right?) but if you can't say that, then I believe I am not wrong in suggesting that Bereans consider different ways the scripture can be interpreted. My two cents. That's the only way I know how to solve a puzzle,biblically speaking. You could look with out buying.
Don't you think the 12 disciples had to do some reevaluating in order to see who Jesus is? May God bless you and grant you peace[/QUOTE
Qumran's two Messiahs
The Dead Sea scrolls were part of a library, a simple fact that is easy to ignore. But it means that there is not one, single messianology to be found in the texts from Qumran. Instead, we must accept that there are several theories about the Messiah. In the War scroll the Messiah is a prophet and takes no part in the war between the 'children of light' against the 'children of darkness' (see above), although the Messiah can be identified with the 'prince of the community'. In other texts, the Messiah is a war leader (e.g., 4QFlorilegium and 4Q458). These are clearly conflicting messianologies.
Several texts are considered to be written by members of the sect: the Damascus document for example, and the Messianic rule. In these texts, we may expect to find the sect's own messianology. The distinguishing characteristic is that the Qumranites expected the coming of not one, but two Messiahs. This must have been an attempt to make sense of such contradictory messianic images as we have encountered up till now.

The root of this idea may be the lines of Zechariah that we already studied above:

'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.'
[Zechariah 6.12-13]
This refers to prince Zerubbabel and the high-priest Joshua, but it is certain that it was understood in a messianic sense in the early Hasmonaean period. For example, the author of the Testaments of the twelve patriarchs expected a priestly and a kingly ruler:
My children, be obedient to Levi and to Judah. Do not exalt yourselves about these two tribes because from them will arise the Savior from God. For the Lord will raise up from Levi someone as a high-priest and from Judah someone as king. He will save all the gentiles and the tribe of Israel.
[Testament of Simeon 7.1-2]

To me [=Judah], God has given the kingship, and to him [=Levi], the priesthood. And He has subjected the kingship to the priesthood. To me He gave earthly matters and to Levi heavenly matters. As heaven is superior to the earth, so is God's priesthood superior to the kingdom on earth.

[Testament of Judah 21.2-4a]
The word 'Messiah' is not used, however. This step was taken by the sect at Qumran. Its members were looking forward to a 'Messiah of Israel' and a 'Messiah of David', who resemble the kingly and priestly descendants of Judah and Levi in the Testaments of the twelve patriarchs.
The first text we must study is the Damascus document, which is, as so often at Qumran, a combination of texts. Its first part is a kind of theological history which proves that the sect is the true Israel and that God will reward the faithful; then follows a kind of law; and a brief penal code is added as an appendix. Our first quote does not mention the Messiah, but must without any doubt be interpreted in a messianic fashion, because it alludes to Balaam's prophecy.

And the star is the seeker of the law, who came to Damascus; as it is written A star has journeyed out of Jacob and a scepter is risen out of Israel. The scepter is the Prince of the whole congregation, and at his coming he will break down all the sons of Seth.
[Damascus document 7.18-21]
This is a very interesting text, because it not only mentions two Messiahs, but also shows that one of them is a military leader and the other a sage. Moreover, the expression 'seeker of the law' usually signifies the Teacher of righteousness (the founder of the sect); the fact that this title is now used to describe one of the Messiahs suggests that the members of the Qumran sect believed that he would one day return. We will discuss this idea below.
In this first quote, the word 'Messiah' is not used. But the Damascus document is sometimes more explicit.

[...] during the time of ungodliness until the appearance of the Messiahs of Aaron and Israel [...]
[Damascus document 12.23-13.1]

This is the exact statement of the ordinances in which they walk until the Messiah of Aaron and Israel appears and expiates their iniquity.

[Damascus document 14.18-19]

Those who heed Him are the poor of the flock; they will be saved at the time of visitation. But others will be delivered up to the sword at the coming of the Messiah of Aaron and Israel.

[Damascus document 19.9-11]
(Similar ideas can be found in 19.33-20.1)
At least one text adds a third actor in the messianic age: the prophet. He is mentioned in the Manual of discipline. This text is also interesting because it uses the plural 'Messiahs of Aaron and Israel' instead of the singular 'Messiah of Aaron and Israel' of the Damascus document: this proves that there were indeed two (or three) Messiahs.

And they shall not depart from any counsel of the law to walk in all the stubbornness of their heart, but they shall be governed by the first ordinances in which the members of the community began their instruction, until the coming of the prophet and the anointed ones of Aaron and Israel
[Manual of discipline 9.9b-11]
Just like the kingly Messiah of Israel and the priestly Messiah of Aaron, the prophet is a messianic type, and it is possible to believe that the Qumran library also contained a messianology that assumed that there would be three Messiahs. After all, kings, priests and prophets were the only one that could be anointed (above).
The most interesting text, however, can be found in the Messianic rule (also called Rule of the congregation). It describes the table arrangement during a sacred, messianic meal. The interesting point is the hierarchy between the two Messiahs.

This is the sitting of the men of renown called to the assembly for the council of the community when God will have begotten the Messiah among them. The Priest shall enter at the head of all the congregation of Israel, then are all the chiefs of the sons of Aaron, the priests, called to the assembly, men of renown. And they shall sit before him, each according to his rank.
Afterwards, the Messiah of Israel shall enter. The chiefs of the tribes of Israel shall sit before him, each according to his rank, according to their position in the camps and during their marches; then all the heads of family of the congregation, together with the wise men of the congregation, shall sit before them, each according to his rank.
And when they gather for the community table, or to drink wine, and arrange the community table and mix the wine to drink, let no man stretch out his hand over the first-fruits of bread and wine before the Priest. For it is he who shall bless the first-fruits of bread and wine, and shall first stretch out his hand over the bread. And afterwards, the Messiah of Israel shall stretch out his hands over the bread. And afterwards, all the congregation of the community shall bless, each according to his rank
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
3,756
69
0
Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. REV 11:8

... off the top of my head ... The Holy Spirit and God cannot be "killed" ... I don't see how their bodies could lie in the street when they are spirit ... and it also says "where their Lord was crucified" Jesus is not the Lord of God and the Holy Spirit.

Read Revelation 11 ....
I hit 'like' before I finished reading. What does 'Jesus is not the Lord of God and the HolybSpirit' mean?
 
B

badger58

Guest
I hit 'like' before I finished reading. What does 'Jesus is not the Lord of God and the HolybSpirit' mean?
I'm not sure. My purpose in this posting was to show that there were alternate understandings than the one that dominates the mainstream belief that most have in the church today. I think it was Andrew who told Peter; we have found the messiah. How could they find Him unless they were looking for him? They had to be open minded as to how the scripture could be interpreted. The Pharisees missed Him because of a stiff necked reading of the messianic prophecies. I don't want anyone to miss what God is goin to do durring the latter rain because of a rigid interpretation of the scripture. I believe God will surprise many by how he will fulfill the book of revelation. On your point about how the Father and the Holy spirit could die. Well I would just say: Is anything to hard for God. Precedent: He gave Jesus a body so it would be possible for him to experience death. He's done it once. Who can tell Him, that's impossible. I know I can't!
 
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badger58

Guest
I hit 'like' before I finished reading. What does 'Jesus is not the Lord of God and the HolybSpirit' mean?
I had to figure that out too.
I found that some bible translations have it as: Our lord, and some say their lord.
 
T

thepsalmist

Guest
I hit 'like' before I finished reading. What does 'Jesus is not the Lord of God and the HolybSpirit' mean?
It says "where their Lord was crucified" ... Jesus is my Lord, your Lord, David's Lord, but he is not God's Lord ... meaning He is not ABOVE and ruler over God.
 
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badger58

Guest
It says "where their Lord was crucified" ... Jesus is my Lord, your Lord, David's Lord, but he is not God's Lord ... meaning He is not ABOVE and ruler over God.
Check different translations. You will find some say our lord and others say their lord. So you point is valid if if the ones I am reading are wrong. I wish I could read Hebrew,Greek and Aramaic. I have to do the best I can with the strongs concordance. Peace
 
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badger58

Guest
It says "where their Lord was crucified" ... Jesus is my Lord, your Lord, David's Lord, but he is not God's Lord ... meaning He is not ABOVE and ruler over God.
Ok, I just double checked the concordance. I have to conclude that OUR LORD is the correct translation. Peace
 
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badger58

Guest
Ok, I just double checked the concordance. I have to conclude that OUR LORD is the correct translation. Peace

If you disagree, please share your source so we can also check and learn. Thanks
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
It is one God manifested in three persons. In the Psalms it say' the Lord said unto my Lord today I have begotten you. It is the Lord of David and He is the Lord that died on the cross they are one and the same. Jesus said if you have seen me then you have seen the Father. In John It says that the word was with God and the word was God and nothing was made with out the word and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. God became a man and died and rose on the third day that we might be saved.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,710
921
113
61
I'm not sure. My purpose in this posting was to show that there were alternate understandings than the one that dominates the mainstream belief that most have in the church today. I think it was Andrew who told Peter; we have found the messiah. How could they find Him unless they were looking for him? They had to be open minded as to how the scripture could be interpreted. The Pharisees missed Him because of a stiff necked reading of the messianic prophecies. I don't want anyone to miss what God is goin to do durring the latter rain because of a rigid interpretation of the scripture. I believe God will surprise many by how he will fulfill the book of revelation. On your point about how the Father and the Holy spirit could die. Well I would just say: Is anything to hard for God. Precedent: He gave Jesus a body so it would be possible for him to experience death. He's done it once. Who can tell Him, that's impossible. I know I can't!
I suppose you will surprised,too. To say that God, our father and the Holy Spirit are the 2 witness from rev.11 are your theory and is not based in the word of God.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
It says "where their Lord was crucified" ... Jesus is my Lord, your Lord, David's Lord, but he is not God's Lord ... meaning He is not ABOVE and ruler over God.
Hello thepslamist,

Also, the following scripture regarding the two witnesses would demonstrate that they are not God the Father nor the Holy Spirit.

"These witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

That they stand before the Lord of the earth would demonstrate that they are other individuals. That the two witnesses are not God the Father and the Holy Spirit should not be something that needs to be debated.
 
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