The "Rapture"?
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P
Jimbone,take a look at what pretribs are wading through in an end times discussion . As a pretrib believer,I would say we have done a miraculous job of composure in dealing with DP s trollish name calling and personal insults.
Oh,wait never mind. I just noticed that about half the time you follow him around and embolden his nonsense by hitting the like button on his nasty posts.
Originally Posted by DP
I feel sorry you pre-tribbers, because you're not being prepared to make a stand for Christ in the trib. You've been taught to be as cowards seeking a life of ease with your prosperity gospel and desire of filthy lucre.
Oh,wait never mind. I just noticed that about half the time you follow him around and embolden his nonsense by hitting the like button on his nasty posts.
I feel sorry you pre-tribbers, because you're not being prepared to make a stand for Christ in the trib. You've been taught to be as cowards seeking a life of ease with your prosperity gospel and desire of filthy lucre.
So the views of the many are always correct? Where the Pharisees and Sadducees correct? They were the religious leaders in their day and held the popular view among scholars. How about today in Israel? Most are still waiting for Messiah to come - the first time. Are they correct?
Are the vast majority of the scientific community which believes in Evolution correct? Were they correct hundreds of years ago when they thought the world was flat or that the earth was the center of the universe? How about those who believe in global warming? Now they call it climate change because the earth wasn't warming. My point is, "TRUTH" is not based on the popular vote.
To be honest, I haven't searched to see if others share my views. I know plenty do when it comes to Islam as the great evil of this world. I can tell you that I am able to read. When I show you passages that says God is bringing all the saints you replace God with Jesus. I am staying true to the Word, you are altering it to fit your views. Look at these passages again. They appear to be the same event to me.
1 Thes 4: [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
GOD WILL BRING (those who sleep in Jesus)
Zec 14: Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
GOD BRINGS THE SAINTS
I never said when this happens, did I? I never said this happens AFTER the millennium. Just when do you think the Day of the Lord takes place? What do you think is the Day of the Lord?
The truth is both GOD THE FATHER and CHRIST JESUS the SON return AFTER the Tribulation. Your view has Jesus coming before and after the Tribulation then on the second return you have Jesus staying and reigning with all the saints. Apparently you think God stays in heaven for 1,000 years all by Himself. In your mind Jesus clears out heaven and brings all dead and living saints with him to reign on earth for 1,000 years while God remains alone in Heaven. You have no scriptural support for this.
As for the dead in Christ rising first, I agreed with you. They do rise first before anyone comes back. You have Christ coming before the Tribulation with all the saints and then resurrecting the dead then all of them going back to heaven without ever touching ground. You reversed the correct order and you moved it ahead of the Tribulation. None of this is taught and I don't care how many of you believe this nonsense. You invent 2 returns of Christ but only one is taught and it is located after the Tribulation. Your whole theory is baseless and not found in scripture. You make it up because you refuse to believe and read what is plainly taught as I am trying to show you. You don't like it because it questions your lifelong views.
Are the vast majority of the scientific community which believes in Evolution correct? Were they correct hundreds of years ago when they thought the world was flat or that the earth was the center of the universe? How about those who believe in global warming? Now they call it climate change because the earth wasn't warming. My point is, "TRUTH" is not based on the popular vote.
To be honest, I haven't searched to see if others share my views. I know plenty do when it comes to Islam as the great evil of this world. I can tell you that I am able to read. When I show you passages that says God is bringing all the saints you replace God with Jesus. I am staying true to the Word, you are altering it to fit your views. Look at these passages again. They appear to be the same event to me.
1 Thes 4: [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
GOD WILL BRING (those who sleep in Jesus)
Zec 14: Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
GOD BRINGS THE SAINTS
I never said when this happens, did I? I never said this happens AFTER the millennium. Just when do you think the Day of the Lord takes place? What do you think is the Day of the Lord?
The truth is both GOD THE FATHER and CHRIST JESUS the SON return AFTER the Tribulation. Your view has Jesus coming before and after the Tribulation then on the second return you have Jesus staying and reigning with all the saints. Apparently you think God stays in heaven for 1,000 years all by Himself. In your mind Jesus clears out heaven and brings all dead and living saints with him to reign on earth for 1,000 years while God remains alone in Heaven. You have no scriptural support for this.
As for the dead in Christ rising first, I agreed with you. They do rise first before anyone comes back. You have Christ coming before the Tribulation with all the saints and then resurrecting the dead then all of them going back to heaven without ever touching ground. You reversed the correct order and you moved it ahead of the Tribulation. None of this is taught and I don't care how many of you believe this nonsense. You invent 2 returns of Christ but only one is taught and it is located after the Tribulation. Your whole theory is baseless and not found in scripture. You make it up because you refuse to believe and read what is plainly taught as I am trying to show you. You don't like it because it questions your lifelong views.
K
I am a pre- tibber and I do not believe in the prosperity "gospel" at all. And I'm hoping this comment gets you banned.Of all the "holier than thou" comments I've seen on here this one has to take the cake. None of us know what stand we will have to make before we leave this world. Christians are being beheaded NOW! So knock of the judgmental attitude.
P
Apparently,he only gets that way with pretrib believers.
Most of the other subjects/threads he seems quite normal
Most forums allow attacks against a concept,but draw the line on personal attacks.
I honestly believe he sees himself as a crusader,valiantly beheading his satanic opposition.
Really,really weird.
Most of the other subjects/threads he seems quite normal
Most forums allow attacks against a concept,but draw the line on personal attacks.
I honestly believe he sees himself as a crusader,valiantly beheading his satanic opposition.
Really,really weird.
P
These kinds of thread bring contention amongst the body of Christ. It takes two to tango. One must step off the dance floor for the tango to end.................. Just a thought
DP is a colorful fellow. But he crosses the line in the nasty personal insults.
I can see a christian slipping and saying things to others that are his family In Christ ever so rarely but if it happens more than not; one had better examine themselves to see that he/she is in the faith. The Holy Spirit does not sound like satan >the acuser of the brethren. God is recording it all and maybe reverence to the one we serve is not in a healthy perspective?
K
The Bible says,
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Being "caught up" raptured came long before Darby. Others before him wrote about it.
[h=3]The Bible describes the Rapture and Second Coming as different events.[/h]The Bible must see the Rapture (Jn. 14:1-4; I Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thes. 4:13-18) and the Second Coming (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19) as separate events, because when the verses are compared they describe two very different scenarios:
- See more at: Why I Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture | Lamb & Lion Ministries
The Rapture is described as occurring at any time without warning.The Tribulation is for Israel’s redemption.
[h=3]The Tribulation is not for the Church.[/h]The Tribulation is God’s wrath upon the unbelieving world, and not for those who are saved from Christ’s resurrection to the Rapture — called the Church. Yes believers have suffered all throughout human history, but there is a special time (just like the Flood) set apart called the Day of the Lord for God’s wrath. Christians suffering and the Tribulation/Day of the Lord are different.
[h=3]The Old Testament and Revelation leave the Church out of the Tribulation.[/h]The focus of the Tribulation — to pour out God’s wrath on the earth just like the Flood (Isa. 24:22; Zeph. 3:8; 1 Thes. 5:3; 2 Thes. 2:12) and to bring the Jewish people to accept Jesus as Messiah (Mat. 23:39; Lk. 13:35) — is addressed by the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation to the unbelievers and the Jewish people. In any biblical content concerning the Tribulation/Day of the Lord, the Church cannot be found.
Some will argue that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view is just “too new” to be considered viable. Critics will point to the origin of the modern Pre-Tribulation view and credit John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) with its founding. But, is that assessment historically accurate? Indeed, it is not.
The Early Church fathers’ such as Barnabas (ca.100-105), Papias (ca. 60-130), Justin Martyr (110-195), Irenaeus (120-202), Tertullian (145-220), Hippolytus (ca. 185-236), Cyprian (200-250), and Lactantius (260-330) wrote on the imminent return of Jesus Christ, the central argument for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view.
Biblical truth is determined by Scripture, and not how that teaching has been perceived at different times during history. When Augustine began spiritualizing the Bible, his view of a non-literal interpretation took hold of the church until the Renaissance, obliterating the Premillennial and Pre-Tribulation Rapture views in favor of Amillennialism. But, some Medieval writers such as Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373), Abbot Ceolfrid’s Latin Codex Amiatinus (ca. 690-716), and Brother Dolcino wrote statements that distinguish the Rapture from the Second Coming.
When the chains of allegorical interpretation began to fall off beginning with the Reformation in the 1400 and 1500s, writers such as Joseph Mede (1586-1638), Increase Mather (1639-1723), Peter Jurieu (1687), Philip Doddridge (1738), John Gill (1748), James Macknight (1763), Thomas Scott (1792) and Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) all wrote concerning the Rapture occurring separate from the Second Coming. Even in the more modern church, those like William Witherby (1818) were precursors to John Darby in support of the view. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture view is indeed then not only biblical, but supported throughout Church history.
- See more at: Why I Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture | Lamb & Lion Ministries
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Being "caught up" raptured came long before Darby. Others before him wrote about it.
[h=3]The Bible describes the Rapture and Second Coming as different events.[/h]The Bible must see the Rapture (Jn. 14:1-4; I Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thes. 4:13-18) and the Second Coming (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19) as separate events, because when the verses are compared they describe two very different scenarios:
- Rapture — believers meet Christ in the air
Second Coming — Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the believers on earth - Rapture — Mount of Olives is unchanged
Second Coming — Mount of Olives is divided, forming a valley east of Jerusalem - Rapture — living believers obtain glorified bodies
Second Coming — living believers remain in same bodies - Rapture — believers go to heaven
Second Coming — glorified believers come from heaven, earthly believers stay on earth - Rapture — world left unjudged and living in sin
Second Coming — world is judged and righteousness is established - Rapture — depicts deliverance of the Church from wrath
Second Coming — depicts deliverance of believers who endured wrath - Rapture — no signs precede it
Second Coming — many signs precede it - Rapture — revealed only in New Testament
Second Coming — revealed in both Old and New Testaments - Rapture — deals with only the saved
Second Coming — deals with both the saved and unsaved - Rapture — Satan remains free
Second Coming — Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss
- See more at: Why I Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture | Lamb & Lion Ministries
The Rapture is described as occurring at any time without warning.The Tribulation is for Israel’s redemption.
[h=3]The Tribulation is not for the Church.[/h]The Tribulation is God’s wrath upon the unbelieving world, and not for those who are saved from Christ’s resurrection to the Rapture — called the Church. Yes believers have suffered all throughout human history, but there is a special time (just like the Flood) set apart called the Day of the Lord for God’s wrath. Christians suffering and the Tribulation/Day of the Lord are different.
[h=3]The Old Testament and Revelation leave the Church out of the Tribulation.[/h]The focus of the Tribulation — to pour out God’s wrath on the earth just like the Flood (Isa. 24:22; Zeph. 3:8; 1 Thes. 5:3; 2 Thes. 2:12) and to bring the Jewish people to accept Jesus as Messiah (Mat. 23:39; Lk. 13:35) — is addressed by the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation to the unbelievers and the Jewish people. In any biblical content concerning the Tribulation/Day of the Lord, the Church cannot be found.
Some will argue that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view is just “too new” to be considered viable. Critics will point to the origin of the modern Pre-Tribulation view and credit John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) with its founding. But, is that assessment historically accurate? Indeed, it is not.
The Early Church fathers’ such as Barnabas (ca.100-105), Papias (ca. 60-130), Justin Martyr (110-195), Irenaeus (120-202), Tertullian (145-220), Hippolytus (ca. 185-236), Cyprian (200-250), and Lactantius (260-330) wrote on the imminent return of Jesus Christ, the central argument for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view.
Biblical truth is determined by Scripture, and not how that teaching has been perceived at different times during history. When Augustine began spiritualizing the Bible, his view of a non-literal interpretation took hold of the church until the Renaissance, obliterating the Premillennial and Pre-Tribulation Rapture views in favor of Amillennialism. But, some Medieval writers such as Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373), Abbot Ceolfrid’s Latin Codex Amiatinus (ca. 690-716), and Brother Dolcino wrote statements that distinguish the Rapture from the Second Coming.
When the chains of allegorical interpretation began to fall off beginning with the Reformation in the 1400 and 1500s, writers such as Joseph Mede (1586-1638), Increase Mather (1639-1723), Peter Jurieu (1687), Philip Doddridge (1738), John Gill (1748), James Macknight (1763), Thomas Scott (1792) and Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) all wrote concerning the Rapture occurring separate from the Second Coming. Even in the more modern church, those like William Witherby (1818) were precursors to John Darby in support of the view. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture view is indeed then not only biblical, but supported throughout Church history.
- See more at: Why I Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture | Lamb & Lion Ministries