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B
I agree with you that the vision given to the prophet Zechariah is key to understanding who the two witnesses are. Your statement is flawed in reasoning. Because of the way you interpret the scripture is correct, there is no need to discuss the matter. Who's to say that you are 100% correct. Don't you think others should judge that? I do not claim that my way of reading it is the only possibility. All I'm saying is we shouldn't base our theology or eschatology on a word.
Example: My mother and father served me well as a child. Does that mean that I'm better than my parents? No
Here are different ways of understanding the thought of" standing by" in Strong's concordance.
1.to stand, remain, endure, take one's stand
1.(Qal)
1.to stand, take one's stand, be in a standing attitude, stand forth, take a stand, present oneself, attend upon, be or become servant of
2.to stand still, stop (moving or doing), cease
3.to tarry, delay, remain, continue, abide, endure, persist, be steadfast
4.to make a stand, hold one's ground
5.to stand upright, remain standing, stand up, rise, be erect, be upright
6.to arise, appear, come on the scene, stand forth, appear, rise up or against
7.to stand with, take one's stand, be appointed, grow flat, grow insipid
2.(Hiphil)
1.to station, set
2.to cause to stand firm, maintain
3.to cause to stand up, cause to set up, erect
4.to present (one) before (king)
5.to appoint, ordain, establish
3.(Hophal) to be presented, be caused to stand, be stood before
Peace
Example: My mother and father served me well as a child. Does that mean that I'm better than my parents? No
Here are different ways of understanding the thought of" standing by" in Strong's concordance.
1.to stand, remain, endure, take one's stand
1.(Qal)
1.to stand, take one's stand, be in a standing attitude, stand forth, take a stand, present oneself, attend upon, be or become servant of
2.to stand still, stop (moving or doing), cease
3.to tarry, delay, remain, continue, abide, endure, persist, be steadfast
4.to make a stand, hold one's ground
5.to stand upright, remain standing, stand up, rise, be erect, be upright
6.to arise, appear, come on the scene, stand forth, appear, rise up or against
7.to stand with, take one's stand, be appointed, grow flat, grow insipid
2.(Hiphil)
1.to station, set
2.to cause to stand firm, maintain
3.to cause to stand up, cause to set up, erect
4.to present (one) before (king)
5.to appoint, ordain, establish
3.(Hophal) to be presented, be caused to stand, be stood before
Peace
Last edited by a moderator:
T
Dear Badger,
It was clear pretty much from the first page of posts here that you have an agenda to prove your theory. Anyone who counters your agenda is met with one form of contempt or another ... You keep saying that only those who agree with you or who are willing to be open minded to your idea are noble-minded students like the Bereans. Fine ... that's your tunnel-vision opinion.
As for myself I do not have an interest in pursuing that theory ... to me, it has been dismissed. I feel no need to pursue the topic further. My thoughts were posted on the first page.
I was answering a question Yet asked me directly, with my reply on page 6 ... and I agreed with Ahwatukee's post. I was not re-engaging in this thread's perusal.
Peace~
It was clear pretty much from the first page of posts here that you have an agenda to prove your theory. Anyone who counters your agenda is met with one form of contempt or another ... You keep saying that only those who agree with you or who are willing to be open minded to your idea are noble-minded students like the Bereans. Fine ... that's your tunnel-vision opinion.
As for myself I do not have an interest in pursuing that theory ... to me, it has been dismissed. I feel no need to pursue the topic further. My thoughts were posted on the first page.
I was answering a question Yet asked me directly, with my reply on page 6 ... and I agreed with Ahwatukee's post. I was not re-engaging in this thread's perusal.
Peace~
Sir, besides everything else that I have provided and should not have even engaged in, there is nothing at all in the scripture that would lead the reader to the conclusion that the two witnesses are God the Father and the Holy Spirit. And so the reader is left with what is said at face value, that they are prophets, they will be dressed in sackcloth, that they have power to bring plagues upon the earth and the mention of their bodies lying in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 day's. Conclusion: they are two literal men who will perform those events during the first half of that seven year period.
B
I did not know that Sharing something I find in the bible to be so terrible.
I thought that iron sharpens iron
I thought that families shared things(what happened to the brotherhood)
I thought it not a sin to say " what if " without being jumped on
I thought we could share the word of God, and have a disagreement without going personal.
I STAND CORRECTED!
I thought that iron sharpens iron
I thought that families shared things(what happened to the brotherhood)
I thought it not a sin to say " what if " without being jumped on
I thought we could share the word of God, and have a disagreement without going personal.
I STAND CORRECTED!
badger58,
It is not that it is terrible to share the word of God, but let's keep it within scripture, for there are many false teachings out in the world for which we are contending and correcting regarding the truth. Satan is attacking every biblical topic in these last day's. This is why the teaching of the gathering of the church prior to God's wrath being poured out is being vehemently attacked. It is why the way of salvation, which comes only through faith in Christ as the One who provided it, is being attacked, why the bodily resurrection is being attacked. Satan is busy and he uses people, even those who are not learned in scripture, to pass along these teachings. Let's stick with the true word of God.
It is not that it is terrible to share the word of God, but let's keep it within scripture, for there are many false teachings out in the world for which we are contending and correcting regarding the truth. Satan is attacking every biblical topic in these last day's. This is why the teaching of the gathering of the church prior to God's wrath being poured out is being vehemently attacked. It is why the way of salvation, which comes only through faith in Christ as the One who provided it, is being attacked, why the bodily resurrection is being attacked. Satan is busy and he uses people, even those who are not learned in scripture, to pass along these teachings. Let's stick with the true word of God.
B
We need not throw out the baby with the bath water?????? what is the chaff to the wheat. If I am wrong it makes no difference. You believe God will act through two prophets, I believe God will act in a body,that He has prepared for Himself. Either way it happens, the bride of Christ wins. My view takes nothing away from the fact that Jesus poured out his life on Calvary, that I might know His Father.
B
Ok, Different takes on who the TWO WITNESSES are.
Some say they will be two ordinary people empowered by God to perform their duties
Some say they are Moses and Elijah empowered by God as in the past.
Others say it will be Enoch and Elijah because they never died.
Others say that the two witnesses are the old and new testament.
Still others say they are Israel and the church.
I say they are the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Lets do some gold panning using the word of God and see if we can find some nuggets
Some say they will be two ordinary people empowered by God to perform their duties
Some say they are Moses and Elijah empowered by God as in the past.
Others say it will be Enoch and Elijah because they never died.
Others say that the two witnesses are the old and new testament.
Still others say they are Israel and the church.
I say they are the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Lets do some gold panning using the word of God and see if we can find some nuggets
B
Mark 10:35-40King James Version (KJV)
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Will the two witnesses be given this?
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Will the two witnesses be given this?
B
Zechariahs' vision
lampstand Bible
Question: "What is the significance of the lampstand in the Bible?"
Answer: The first time we see the word lampstand in the Bible is in Exodus 25:31, as God gives detailed instructions about the golden lampstand to be placed in the tabernacle the Israelites were building. It’s interesting to note just how precise God is in explaining how He wanted the lampstand to look. Since we can be assured there are no “wasted words” in the Bible, we know each detail and specification are important for some reason.
The lampstand was to be made of pure gold, hammered out to the perfect accuracy of God’s decree (Exodus 25:31). Gold was the most valuable of all metals (Psalm 119:127; 19:10). Gold is often spoken of in terms of being “tested by fire”; the Bible compares the testing of gold with the testing of the church in 1 Peter 1:7. Out of testing, or refining, will come the true people of God (see Zechariah 13:7–9; Job 23:10). Those who withstand the “fire” will be purified (see Numbers 31:23).
The lampstand as a whole was to be fashioned as a tree with the base and center shaft representing the trunk and with three “branches” on each side. The top of the shaft and of each branch was to be made like an open almond flower; each flower held an oil lamp (Exodus 25:32, 37). There are several passages in the Bible that speak about the almond tree, which was always the first tree to blossom and bear fruit in the spring, as early as February. The apostle Paul calls Christ the “firstfruits” because Jesus was the first to rise from the dead to everlasting life, and because of His resurrection all believers will also be raised (1 Corinthians 15:20–23; Romans 8:23).
God used Aaron’s rod as a sign to the Israelites of his unique priesthood. At one time, when Aaron’s priesthood was being challenged, God caused Aaron’s rod to bud and grow ripe almonds overnight; this miracle reaffirmed that the privilege of being chosen as High Priest only came through God’s appointment (Numbers 16:3;17:10). This was a “shadow of things to come” experience that pointed to Jesus, our God-ordained, life-giving High Priest forever (Hebrews 7:21).
In the tabernacle, the lampstand was to be placed in the first section, called the Holy Place (Hebrews 9:2). The lamp was to be tended by Aaron and his sons so that its light never went out. The lampstand was to give forth light day and night (Exodus 27:20–21). The lampstand’s being the only source of light points directly to Christ as being the light of the world (John 8:12; 9:5). Jesus is the “true light that gives light to everyone” (John 1:9) and the only way anyone can come to the Father (John 14:6).
Jesus also calls His church the “light of the world” (Matthew 5:14), not of their own doing but because Christ is abiding in the church (John 1:4–5). A Christian who is shining with the light of Christ will live a godly life (1 Peter 2:9). Scripture is overflowing with references that compare and contrast light and darkness, believer and unbeliever, right up through the book of Revelation. In Revelation 1:20 Christ says the “seven lampstands are the seven churches.” The churches of Christ are to walk in the light of God (1 John 1:7) and spread the light of the gospel so that all people will glorify God (Matthew 5:16).
There is other symbolism in the lampstand: it was made of one piece, as Christ is one with His church (Colossians 1:8); the six branches (6 being the number of man) plus the main shaft equals seven lights (7 being the number of completion)—man is only complete in Christ (John 15:5).
The most important thing to note about the lampstand is that it points to Christ, as do all the elements of the tabernacle. The Bible is from beginning to end a testimony about Christ and God’s merciful plan of redemption. Praise the Lord, He has taken His children out of the darkness and into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2:9).
lampstand Bible
Question: "What is the significance of the lampstand in the Bible?"
Answer: The first time we see the word lampstand in the Bible is in Exodus 25:31, as God gives detailed instructions about the golden lampstand to be placed in the tabernacle the Israelites were building. It’s interesting to note just how precise God is in explaining how He wanted the lampstand to look. Since we can be assured there are no “wasted words” in the Bible, we know each detail and specification are important for some reason.
The lampstand was to be made of pure gold, hammered out to the perfect accuracy of God’s decree (Exodus 25:31). Gold was the most valuable of all metals (Psalm 119:127; 19:10). Gold is often spoken of in terms of being “tested by fire”; the Bible compares the testing of gold with the testing of the church in 1 Peter 1:7. Out of testing, or refining, will come the true people of God (see Zechariah 13:7–9; Job 23:10). Those who withstand the “fire” will be purified (see Numbers 31:23).
The lampstand as a whole was to be fashioned as a tree with the base and center shaft representing the trunk and with three “branches” on each side. The top of the shaft and of each branch was to be made like an open almond flower; each flower held an oil lamp (Exodus 25:32, 37). There are several passages in the Bible that speak about the almond tree, which was always the first tree to blossom and bear fruit in the spring, as early as February. The apostle Paul calls Christ the “firstfruits” because Jesus was the first to rise from the dead to everlasting life, and because of His resurrection all believers will also be raised (1 Corinthians 15:20–23; Romans 8:23).
God used Aaron’s rod as a sign to the Israelites of his unique priesthood. At one time, when Aaron’s priesthood was being challenged, God caused Aaron’s rod to bud and grow ripe almonds overnight; this miracle reaffirmed that the privilege of being chosen as High Priest only came through God’s appointment (Numbers 16:3;17:10). This was a “shadow of things to come” experience that pointed to Jesus, our God-ordained, life-giving High Priest forever (Hebrews 7:21).
In the tabernacle, the lampstand was to be placed in the first section, called the Holy Place (Hebrews 9:2). The lamp was to be tended by Aaron and his sons so that its light never went out. The lampstand was to give forth light day and night (Exodus 27:20–21). The lampstand’s being the only source of light points directly to Christ as being the light of the world (John 8:12; 9:5). Jesus is the “true light that gives light to everyone” (John 1:9) and the only way anyone can come to the Father (John 14:6).
Jesus also calls His church the “light of the world” (Matthew 5:14), not of their own doing but because Christ is abiding in the church (John 1:4–5). A Christian who is shining with the light of Christ will live a godly life (1 Peter 2:9). Scripture is overflowing with references that compare and contrast light and darkness, believer and unbeliever, right up through the book of Revelation. In Revelation 1:20 Christ says the “seven lampstands are the seven churches.” The churches of Christ are to walk in the light of God (1 John 1:7) and spread the light of the gospel so that all people will glorify God (Matthew 5:16).
There is other symbolism in the lampstand: it was made of one piece, as Christ is one with His church (Colossians 1:8); the six branches (6 being the number of man) plus the main shaft equals seven lights (7 being the number of completion)—man is only complete in Christ (John 15:5).
The most important thing to note about the lampstand is that it points to Christ, as do all the elements of the tabernacle. The Bible is from beginning to end a testimony about Christ and God’s merciful plan of redemption. Praise the Lord, He has taken His children out of the darkness and into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2:9).
B
There are problems to be addressed with any of these theories based on what we know about the WITNESSES from revelation 11 and Zechariah 4.
A) they are killed: Thus they have bodies and live.
B) they have powers over waters, all manor of plagues and fire proceeds out of their mouths.
C) in Zech 4 we see that(everyone seems to miss this)the two olive tree's are supplying the lampstand with oil. The oil is a picture of the Spirit of God throughout the bible.
Question: Who is the source of the spirit of God?
Do any of these theories pan out?
Peace
A) they are killed: Thus they have bodies and live.
B) they have powers over waters, all manor of plagues and fire proceeds out of their mouths.
C) in Zech 4 we see that(everyone seems to miss this)the two olive tree's are supplying the lampstand with oil. The oil is a picture of the Spirit of God throughout the bible.
Question: Who is the source of the spirit of God?
Do any of these theories pan out?
Peace
B
Thanks, I Google's it.
Read about the Bereans in Acts 17
My definition of Bereans: Follower of God, that would investigate a matter, contemplate, use the scripture to refute an idea or to follow the truth wherever it might lead, without hedging you bets. Discussion and dialogue without prejudice or personal attack. Let the chips fall where they may. Not to impute motive. We do not have the power to judge each others hearts.
What is the chaff to the wheat? Gods word will make it clear. The church is lacking in this(my opinion) PEACE!
Read about the Bereans in Acts 17
My definition of Bereans: Follower of God, that would investigate a matter, contemplate, use the scripture to refute an idea or to follow the truth wherever it might lead, without hedging you bets. Discussion and dialogue without prejudice or personal attack. Let the chips fall where they may. Not to impute motive. We do not have the power to judge each others hearts.
What is the chaff to the wheat? Gods word will make it clear. The church is lacking in this(my opinion) PEACE!