The essential characteristics of the Biblical Jesus

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I don't consider this conversation a waste of my time.

I am confident of who i am in Christ and nothing anyone presents can ever shake my foundation.

I am here to learn from those who are further along on their path of life than i...

...and i believe, though he may seem stubborn, Bowman is not immune to learning from those of us who aren't as far along as he may be on the path that is life.

You bring up a very valid point.

A lot of the denial that we see going on in the Christian community to the concept of witnessing to Muslims through their own scriptures, is because the Christians, themselves, are insecure in their own beliefs.

A person must be very well grounded in the Holy Bible before taking on this task...
 
you appeal to differences between your translation and the widely-used translations.

one needs to be an expert in a language in order to know if other experts (or alleged experts) are translating it right... to me, that's obvious... what qualifies me, then, is common sense.


I haven't seen anyone here analyze your assertions about the grammer and syntax of koranic passages in depth... so, it's not happening here on cc.


Dan, you have no qualifications to make an informed assessment.....you can only provide your unreferenced opinion....and everyone can provide their opinion on ANY matter.

The very verses that you google off the web offer no exegetical reasoning for them, zero...and yet you lap them up like a kitten at a saucer of milk...

 
I agree that the bible is the best thing when talking to the people I'm likely to meet here in the usa. and of course, the bible is the final authority.

just consider, that later on in acts 17, Paul talks with the athenian experts, and uses a quote from one of their poets.

The Bible is ALWAYS the best thing to use when talking to any person regardless of where they live in the world!

Here is the passage in question from Acts 17:

18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Paul quoted the inscription to one of their altars as an opportunity to speak to them of the living God, and then quoted a poet, nothing more. He did not open up the poet's books and reason out of them! Acts 17:2 is the model for this chapter and the model for NT evangelism. It is sad that people take this one occasion in Acts 17, misunderstand the meaning of it, then act like it gives them permission to open up the Koran and reach muslims from their own book! The Bible doesn't say "search the Scriptures" in John 5:39 and then proceed to commend man searching outside the Scriptures! The Bible says to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God" in 2 Tim 2:15. That does not mean study other books(ie: the Koran). Studying the Koran may result in man being approved to other men, but not unto God! One has to become familiar with the Sword of the Spririt, the Word of God to be able to utilize it correctly! Paul did just that! Nowhere in Scripture does it say we are to go to any heathen books to reach the lost.

It is a demonic lie to get people to stray from the Word of God. The devil knows salvation is only found in the Word of God and nothing else! The Word of God needs no help or any outside literature. For the Word of God is living and powerful!

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Heb 4:12

 
You bring up a very valid point.

A lot of the denial that we see going on in the Christian community to the concept of witnessing to Muslims through their own scriptures, is because the Christians, themselves, are insecure in their own beliefs.

A person must be very well grounded in the Holy Bible before taking on this task...

An earlier post of mine shows you why Christians, who reject your method, are wise:

And since their indoctrination is being caused by demonic spiritual blindness, one must use the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God, to defeat the spiritual enemy.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph 6:12

How can you use inferior weapons to open their blind eyes? The Koran is not the Sword of the Spirit!

"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds" 2 Cor 10:4

The world needs more advocates of obeying the Word of God. The Word of God really is as powerful as Hebrews 4:12 proclaims. The Word of God is the only Sword that can pierce the soul and spirit of any false religion on this planet.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Heb 4:12

The command was to preach the gospel to every creature(Mark 16:15), not go teach it with a false religion's own scriptures! You have not proven Muhammad or allah from only the Scriptures of the Word. And you will never be able to because it can't be done.

 
Dan, you have no qualifications to make an informed assessment.....you can only provide your unreferenced opinion....and everyone can provide their opinion on ANY matter.

The very verses that you google off the web offer no exegetical reasoning for them, zero...and yet you lap them up like a kitten at a saucer of milk...


I agree that I have no qualifications to make an informed assessment. that's why I was brainstorming ways that your discoveries could be evaluated by experts.

if you mean my opinion about how passages from the koran should be tranlsated, I referenced them at carm.org... I posted the url's.

I freely admit that I have virtually no knowledge of classical arabic... so I go with the best I can access.


if you have url's of sources that we can read online for free,
will confirm what you say,
are clearly independent of yourself,
and offer exegetical reasonings for their statements,
please post them.
 
Re: Keep the ignorance flowing...

It looks like you are using a Textus Receptus manuscript version.

I usually use Westcott Hort and/or the Majority Text...

Hey, thank you for answering. :) That is interesting though. The Westcott-Hort text came down through the Alexandrian Text Line. Did you know that both Westcott and Hort were apostates (a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.)? Westcott did not accept Genesis 1-3; Bodily resurrection of Christ; and Miracles and literal coming of Christ. Also, he was partial to Romish ways. Hort did not accept the infallibility of Scripture. He also favored Darwin's theory of evolution. Both men did not believe in eternal punishment or the vicarious atonement. (This data came from “life & Letters” 1986., 1903)
 
Yes, Dan....

to reveal one's identitiy, unless one wants to be a secret agent missionary, would make sense... not here on cc, but in real life.

how can copyright be an issue? one would only sign away the rights for that particular paper... in return for the Journal publishing them to interested expert readers.


of course, I'm thinking you wouldn't want to put all your eggs in one basket... the paper you submit would be highly specific, about a particular issue...

so, it's not titled "islam lies about the koran"

but something like, "Fresh insights on sura 4.157: a critical exposition of the grammer and syntax".
 
The Bible is ALWAYS the best thing to use when talking to any person regardless of where they live in the world!

Here is the passage in question from Acts 17:

18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Paul quoted the inscription to one of their altars as an opportunity to speak to them of the living God, and then quoted a poet, nothing more. He did not open up the poet's books and reason out of them! Acts 17:2 is the model for this chapter and the model for NT evangelism. It is sad that people take this one occasion in Acts 17, misunderstand the meaning of it, then act like it gives them permission to open up the Koran and reach muslims from their own book! The Bible doesn't say "search the Scriptures" in John 5:39 and then proceed to commend man searching outside the Scriptures! The Bible says to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God" in 2 Tim 2:15. That does not mean study other books(ie: the Koran). Studying the Koran may result in man being approved to other men, but not unto God! One has to become familiar with the Sword of the Spririt, the Word of God to be able to utilize it correctly! Paul did just that! Nowhere in Scripture does it say we are to go to any heathen books to reach the lost.

It is a demonic lie to get people to stray from the Word of God. The devil knows salvation is only found in the Word of God and nothing else! The Word of God needs no help or any outside literature. For the Word of God is living and powerful!

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Heb 4:12


right, Paul quotes a greek poet to greeks... most passages in the bible are to jews and christians, so for them the bible is the starting and ending point... but sometimes, for other groups, the starting point might be something different... the ending point is always the scriptures.

but really, learning about other groups in order to witness to them only makes sense if you're sure God has called you to that...
 
right, Paul quotes a greek poet to greeks... most passages in the bible are to jews and christians, so for them the bible is the starting and ending point... but sometimes, for other groups, the starting point might be something different... the ending point is always the scriptures.

but really, learning about other groups in order to witness to them only makes sense if you're sure God has called you to that...

That's not the point I am making. The apostles went to the Scriptures to preach to the people Jesus, he reasoned with them out of the Scriptures as Acts 17:2 clearly states. They did not open up the poets books to reason with them! You have to realize during those days, Paul did not have the rest of the Scriptures to Revelation!

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." 1 Cor 13:8

The Scriptures weren't completed at that point, today we have the full counsel of the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation! Every believer's starting and ending point is Jesus:

"Looking unto
Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2





 
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That's not the point I am making. The apostles went to the Scriptures to preach to the people Jesus, he reasoned with them out of the Scriptures as Acts 17:2 clearly states. They did not open up the poets books to reason with them! You have to realize during those days, Paul did not have the rest of the Scriptures to Revelation!

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." 1 Cor 13:8

The Scriptures weren't completed at that point, today we have the full counsel of the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation! Every believer's starting and ending point is Jesus:

"Looking unto
Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2






at the beginning of in acts 17 paul is preaching
in a synagogue
and "reasoning with them from the Scriptures".

in the second part of 17, Paul uses a reasoning style more suited to Athens. he lays out parts they agree on, like God doesn't dwell in temples.
the only quote Paul uses is from a greek poet.
I'm sure he was leading up to using scripture, but he was interupted before he got there.
 
at the beginning of in acts 17 paul is preaching
in a synagogue
and "reasoning with them from the Scriptures".

in the second part of 17, Paul uses a reasoning style more suited to Athens. he lays out parts they agree on, like God doesn't dwell in temples.
the only quote Paul uses is from a greek poet.
I'm sure he was leading up to using scripture, but he was interupted before he got there.

Dan, let me say it again. Paul did not open up the poet's books and reason with them out of their books. We can't take this example in Acts 17 and make it say that we should open the Koran and reach Muslims out of the Koran because your purported example in Acts 17 doesnt even come close to encouraging that!
 
Dan, you have no qualifications to make an informed assessment.....you can only provide your unreferenced opinion....and everyone can provide their opinion on ANY matter.

The very verses that you google off the web offer no exegetical reasoning for them, zero...and yet you lap them up like a kitten at a saucer of milk...



Why is it Bowman I don't read praises from your posts with humility; as to the fact you were saved by Jesus on a Cross, and you personally came from death and have crossed over to life? I sense arrogance and pride that you "know" things over other smaller minded men and women who don't deserve the inside scoop like you do, you are slow to encourage and quick to judge, and by it slander people repeatedly, as if to gain ground unbalanced from all of what knowledge leads in insightful truth: Understanding, wisdom, discretion, kindness, etc etc. and if you have not love you are like a clanging cymbal. You have Lorded over people and have filled your discernments with error. I admonish you to see the whole picture with people and in your own relationship with God as well, but I can only correct, thru God's Word:

It is easy to think that we "Know" over problems like this, but we should remember that while this "Knowing" may make a man look Big, it is only love that can make him grow to his full stature, for if a man thinks he "Knows" he may still be quite ignorant of what he ought to know." (1 Cor,8:1-2). (Phi commentary)

The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. (1 Cor.8:2) (NIV).

Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. (1 Cor. 8:1).(NIV).

For the Lord gives Wisdom, and from His mouth comes knowledge and understanding what is right and just and fair - every good path. For Wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul, discretion will guard you, and understanding will guard you.

brother, don't make knowledge your idol. And don't think more highly of yourself than you ought. Don't slander others, for how you judge so too will God judge you by it. Knowing, experientially, your slander has been in error, I want you to get all God has to offer you. Love others.....as Jesus loved you! By the way, I don't read Greek without interpretation, so those times you send that is useless. What is your goal here? Are you trying to teach? Effectively? Have you room to learn? From whom do you learn from?
 
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Dan, let me say it again. Paul did not open up the poet's books and reason with them out of their books. We can't take this example in Acts 17 and make it say that we should open the Koran and reach Muslims out of the Koran because your purported example in Acts 17 doesnt even come close to encouraging that!

true, that Paul doesn't open up the poet's books... but I think that's because both he and the athenians knew those lines from memory.

‘For in him we live, and move, and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his offspring.’ Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold, or silver, or stone...


Paul is quoting one or maybe two greek poets... then "he draws a conclusion",
or "he reasons",
from those lines of poetry.



Paul's reasoning:

[premise] Being then the offspring of God,

[conclusion] we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold, or silver, or stone...
 
Re: Keep the ignorance flowing...


Hey, thank you for answering. :) That is interesting though. The Westcott-Hort text came down through the Alexandrian Text Line. Did you know that both Westcott and Hort were apostates (a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.)? Westcott did not accept Genesis 1-3; Bodily resurrection of Christ; and Miracles and literal coming of Christ. Also, he was partial to Romish ways. Hort did not accept the infallibility of Scripture. He also favored Darwin's theory of evolution. Both men did not believe in eternal punishment or the vicarious atonement. (This data came from “life & Letters” 1986., 1903)


The theological position, of each man, has never concerned me....their collecting and collating of the Greek manuscripts, used by others in renderings, is what is of interest.

I also highly respect Dr. Bart Ehrman, who is agnostic, for his critical examination of the Greek. Even though he is not a believer, he has to admit that NT Greek irrefutably mandates that Jesus Christ is indeed Theos.
 
Why is it Bowman I don't read praises from your posts with humility; as to the fact you were saved by Jesus on a Cross, and you personally came from death and have crossed over to life?

The function of The Cross was to bind Satan, and take him temporarily out of the picture.

This has allowed me (and you) to seek-out The Triune God for a FUTURE Salvation - which will occur at The First Resurrection, when we are pardoned from Judgment, as we cross over from death to life.
 
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to reveal one's identitiy, unless one wants to be a secret agent missionary, would make sense... not here on cc, but in real life.

how can copyright be an issue? one would only sign away the rights for that particular paper... in return for the Journal publishing them to interested expert readers.


of course, I'm thinking you wouldn't want to put all your eggs in one basket... the paper you submit would be highly specific, about a particular issue...

so, it's not titled "islam lies about the koran"

but something like, "Fresh insights on sura 4.157: a critical exposition of the grammer and syntax".


How about I submit an article with your real name attached...?
 
Re: Keep the ignorance flowing...

The theological position, of each man, has never concerned me....their collecting and collating of the Greek manuscripts, used by others in renderings, is what is of interest.

I also highly respect Dr. Bart Ehrman, who is agnostic, for his critical examination of the Greek. Even though he is not a believer, he has to admit that NT Greek irrefutably mandates that Jesus Christ is indeed Theos.
I would ask that you please be careful of who's writings you study.

"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.http://biblehub.com/psalms/1-2.htm But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish." Psalm 1
 
Back to 'essential characteristics', here's a post from a forum Moderator which lays out a non-exhaustive list of essentials: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...eated-discussions-please-read.html#post117444

Should anything be added to this list?
Should anything in this list be further clarified?

Quote:

1. The deity of Jesus.
2. The inspiration and authority of the Bible as found in the 66 books of the Bible.
3. Faith in the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus is the only way to reconcile you to relationship with God.
4. Jesus is coming back again!
5. Believers should seek to live for God and not the world.

Timing of end times events isn't an essential. Calvinism vs non calvinism isn't an essential. Which version of the Bible to read isn't generally an essential, unless it's a version made by a sect that teaches against the esssentials of the faith.​
 
The function of The Cross was to bind Satan, and take him temporarily out of the picture.

This has allowed me (and you) to seek-out The Triune God for a FUTURE Salvation - which will occur at The First Resurrection, when we are pardoned from Judgment, as we cross over from death to life.

The function of the cross is clearly stated with the blood:

"And, having
made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." Col 1:20

We crossed over from death to life(present possession) the moment we believed. That's what the Bible clearly says.


"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24