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jasonj
Guest
That's absolutely the overwhelming "doctrine" on this site. behavior isn't important, just saying I believe. deception. a persons true belief is what they do. Paul states repeatedly if we live to please the sinful nature, we will reap destruction. Paul who they all cling to, states it over and over. those who live like thuis will not inherit Gods kingdom..ect. because of the doctrine that is so popular. and why wouldn't it be popular? there is no responsibility in it, noi commitment necessary. Salvation is something we hold on to, and can absolutely think were saved and end up in the pit of hell. "there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it is destructon.".......thinking thoughts can save you is a deception, Faith in Jesus saves, faith moves and does.
destruction comes from disobeying the gospel of Christ, wich grace is only a part of. There is also TRUTH grace and truth. whats the truth? to walk in obedience to Jesus commands as the many many scriptures make plain. " for the law came through moses...Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. walk in the truth people.
Here again is what people that believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation believe when it comes to behavior so that there is no false accusations being said that are not true...behavior does matter.,..and no one says NOT to obey Christ....
Jesus is grace and truth - it's all to do with what Christ has done for us and we are to walk that out by His life inside of us flowing in and through us because of His finished work alone.
[video=youtube;yPFZv08ZCoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPFZv08ZCoY[/video]
Jesus is grace and truth - it's all to do with what Christ has done for us and we are to walk that out by His life inside of us flowing in and through us because of His finished work alone.
[video=youtube;yPFZv08ZCoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPFZv08ZCoY[/video]
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See? This is more of the same legalism
and absolutism that is the problem.
If you want to get water-baptised in order to secure your salvation, go ahead, no one is telling you not to.
But when you insist on your interpretation of water-baptism and impose it as a MUST on others, implying or stating that others are not saved unless/until they get dunked is just wrong.
You have no right to impose your absolutes on other ppl and make a weaker person doubt their salvation if they don't do things your way.
We are saved by grace through faith. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. If you want to get water-baptised after, good, but it's not a requirement for salvation.
And if someone falsely accuses me and others of believing in lawlessness, which hrftd has done, I will call them the liar that they are.
Why should that offend you? Should we not stand for the truth?
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FreeNChrist
Guest
Beware of the "straw-man!"
A straw-man approach, or argument, is a tactic often described as a logical fallacy. It is the practice of presenting a simplified and often inaccurate summary of an opponent's views, then attacking that summary and concluding that you have thereby won the argument.
The problem with it is that the presenter usually does not accurately represent the opponent's views, so what he is attacking is actually a "straw-man", not the actual thing itself.
In the grace vs works arena.....here is an example of the above "straw-man" technique in action.
...people against the grace of our Lord Jesus talked about here will say.."..the gospel of grace believers say "you don't have to obey Christ" and you can do whatever sin you want!" ( this is their straw-man )
Everyone knows that true Christians obey Christ....everyone knows that sinning is wrong and will destroy us....which is why Jesus came to save us from. ( This is their attack on the straw-man )
Thus the "straw-man" is killed off and so their original premise shows the validity of their argument. This is not even remotely the truth.
All real believers in grace say we do in fact obey Christ and that obedience is sourced from the new life that is in our new creation that is in Christ nor is it ok to sin all you want because true grace teaches us how to live godly in this present world. (Titus 2:11-12)
It doesn't matter how many times we say that grace does not mean to NOT obey Christ nor is it a licence to sin. It is just what some people hear or sometimes deliberately say that is what is being said.
What is happening is that people are "hearing" something else other then what is actually being said by believers in the grace of Jesus as outlined in the word of God or they don't like it because that is not what they were taught in their church or religious upbringing.
A straw-man approach, or argument, is a tactic often described as a logical fallacy. It is the practice of presenting a simplified and often inaccurate summary of an opponent's views, then attacking that summary and concluding that you have thereby won the argument.
The problem with it is that the presenter usually does not accurately represent the opponent's views, so what he is attacking is actually a "straw-man", not the actual thing itself.
In the grace vs works arena.....here is an example of the above "straw-man" technique in action.
...people against the grace of our Lord Jesus talked about here will say.."..the gospel of grace believers say "you don't have to obey Christ" and you can do whatever sin you want!" ( this is their straw-man )
Everyone knows that true Christians obey Christ....everyone knows that sinning is wrong and will destroy us....which is why Jesus came to save us from. ( This is their attack on the straw-man )
Thus the "straw-man" is killed off and so their original premise shows the validity of their argument. This is not even remotely the truth.
All real believers in grace say we do in fact obey Christ and that obedience is sourced from the new life that is in our new creation that is in Christ nor is it ok to sin all you want because true grace teaches us how to live godly in this present world. (Titus 2:11-12)
It doesn't matter how many times we say that grace does not mean to NOT obey Christ nor is it a licence to sin. It is just what some people hear or sometimes deliberately say that is what is being said.
What is happening is that people are "hearing" something else other then what is actually being said by believers in the grace of Jesus as outlined in the word of God or they don't like it because that is not what they were taught in their church or religious upbringing.
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jasonj
Guest
Lol. Jesus is every Christians absolute, if ur offended go elsewhere. I realized last night that if someone rejects the gospel, I have the right to shake the dust off and have no bond to them. I'm Part of the Christian family who believes Jesus words and actually does what He says to do. I don't just think the bibles true. I actually accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. so yeah, since you feel that way. lets part yokes and ways.
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jasonj
Guest
lol you have a lot of ways to avoid obeying Jesus huh
if following Jesus offends you well never have common Ground. listen to what I'm saying. Grace is an obligation to obey Jesus. obeying Jesus IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS. what you guys are doing is saying, just believe and God will force you to act. you pretend you have no responsibility, and claim grace. grace isn't God saving people who refuse Jesus words. and yes Jesus teaches do what I am teaching, or you will reap destruction. do you deny what Jesus teaches? that obedience isn't what determines it all? that's directly opposed to the true Gospel. thinking were saved apart from doing what Jesus says, and he does make it plain. you guys absolutely are opposed to obeying Jesus as a requirement, when Jesus says it is a requirement. Jesus says it is, Jesus Himself says these things. I will never take anyones word over His, ever.
you are absolutely against commiting to following Jesus, you have all you need already, its about commiting to it now, doing it. that's not my "false destructive doctruine" its what Jesus teaches.......go look and see for yourself. its in any bible ( matthew mark luke john) forget what you thought u knew and learn what the Lord is telling you. youi will if your honest with yourself, youll see Jesus the Lord saying " do these things I am teaching you" and you will see " teach everyone to obey my commands" you will see " obey my commands this is Loving me" you will see absolutely, obedience to the Gospel, is every Christians Life. you guys are absolutrely minimizing it. our will matters, God has made things plain, offered eternal Life to those who will follow Jesus.....
you guys are saying well yeah well obey when God makes us obey, he never will make you do anything. Hes saying choose, now you have the ability to choose Life, or death. you aren't bound to the death under Law, jesus paid that one for you, and he also came to Give you the truth from God " gods will" that's why Jesus taught us. that's the truth you read about all through the nt. Jesus doctrines. not only to jews to every nation it is said obey my teachings, they are the only true doctrine from Tnhe Father. God isn't going to force us into Life, he offered and paid dearly to give us the choice to Live or die.
1●JESUS is. Not your rules and legalistic spin on His Word.
2●All of it? Willing to bet on that? Bet you come up short.
And are you implying that others who don't do what you do
are not part of the christian family? If so, pretty arrogant, eh?
3●Since I feel WHAT way?
I am yoked to the Lord Jesus Christ.
1●JESUS is. Not your rules and legalistic spin on His Word.
2●All of it? Willing to bet on that? Bet you come up short.
And are you implying that others who don't do what you do
are not part of the christian family? If so, pretty arrogant, eh?
3●Since I feel WHAT way?
I am yoked to the Lord Jesus Christ.
#2. What's your point? Is that how you justify your own disobedience?
Let's be honest. Farley doesn't believe behavior matters in terms of salvation, but only in terms of the quality of this life.
WE are saved by GOD by means of grace through faith. The lawless grace gospel has turned grace into law, which in essence says that there are no commandments. It replaces GOD with grace, and grace alone saves. GOD's will (law) cannot interfere. That is why followers of this gospel can say that Jesus' commandments don't have to be followed. Grace preempts GOD's will.
You are a false accuser of the brethren.
You have called me, and other believers in Jesus, lawless.
What disobedience are you accusing me of?
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jasonj
Guest
This is the difference in the truth and a deception. The truth will always point to Jesus words, Jesus words are truth. Jesus words tell you exactly what I have said to you. the difference in your doctrine and mine is mine agrees with Jesus words, to support yours you need to search scriptures to make it seem as if Jesus words aren't the ones that matter most. My " false doctrine" is simple, and the reason I have full confidence in it is simple. this is my doctrine. Go to the gospel as recorded in matthew mark luke and John, search Jesus words, pray to God for enlightenment, humble yourselves before His word accept His words as the Lords Word of truth despite what you thought you knew. realize this is Jesus words, Jesus, the Lord. that's why I will not compromise apart from Him. everything the world needs to know is found in Jesus Christ and His words. that's Gods Word. My doctrine, is to follow Jesus words because He is the Lord.
What makes any other doctrine false, is when Jesus said different. if pauls words seem to disagree with Jesus words, its because you don't undersrand it, not because he is opposed to them. truth will always be decided by the words of Christ Jesus, no ones idea or saying what the world wants to hear will change Gods truth. so from here forward this is how to identify the truth and a deception. If Jesus opposes your thinking, you are wrong, Not Jesus. and the repentance belongs to you, not His word. Obedeince to Gods word, is Life, rejecting it is death. regardless if we think were saved no matter what we choose to do.
if you believe, you will do. that's true belief. if you Love Jesus, you will accept and obey Jesus and not look for ways to disregard HIS WORDS, wich I have repeated over and over to you all. obey the Lord is Life, from the beginning wioth adam and eve, till Jesus day, and now until the end of the earth, obey the Lord and you will Live, reject The Lords word and you will die. Grace forgavr all we were, applied who He is to us. Now there is Life and death because of Grace, before Grace came, there was only death. Life is in the teachings of Christ. walking in the truth of them is obedience to them. it is not unclear as you would have it seem. its just the stepping into the Light that our deeds are exposed. no one wants to hear they HAVE to repent of things opposed to God. Grace is distorted is it is not bound to obey Jesus, it is part of Him, Just as His authority and teachings are part of Him. obedience and Grace are one thing, the gift is obedience to Jesus.
its not that I don't hear you guys, its that your words are in opposition to Jesus words. so the "straw man" thing lol is really kind of your deal. if my words are the same as JESUS , and yours are opposed to JESUS .......someone should look into His words alone
I didn't accuse you of anything. I asked you a question.
I don't think that I've called anybody lawless (and I know I haven't called you that), but I have said that some people follow and believe in a lawless grace. That's my opinion. If it's not right, show me how the grace you follow isn't lawless.
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psalm6819
Guest
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jasonj
Guest
That is exactly right insightful words. anything that ever minimizes obedience is not Gods nature. we see this from the very beginning to the very end of the Bible. God will never say " well obedience doesn't matter just say you believe and all is well." that's the character of " SURELY it wont Kill you pshhh it looks yummy, itll make u wise..go ahead and eat it even though God said don't or youll die pshh,,,,you wont die" that's the doctrine, sins ok, just believe its not a biggy whether you obey...the Lord obeyed that's enough, no need to honor His suffering and shame on your behalf. What He did, doesn't obligate you to His words, just think your saved......such a deception. the reason we have all the scripture is to recognize what God is saying, His character. if He says something, hell never say things opposing the nature and spirit of what He said. He gave us Life, its up to us whether to keep it in remembrance of Him, byu His words and spirit in us, a gift of empowering Grace. the choice really is easy. do I believe Jesus words? hes the one who says do what I'm saying and you will live, do it not and youll reap destruction, he teaches this several times. He teaches baptism, repentance ect. the world is drifting away from the truth, even in the "church"
What do you mean, 'the grace I follow'?
I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
HE's my Savior. HE's my Lord. HE's my God.
Jesus said,
'My sheep hear my voice, and I know them,
and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life...' \
/
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jasonj
Guest
actually hrftd, you are spot on with the "lawless Grace" its easy to see in the words. their claim is that there is no Law, just Grace. that's seen several times. Grace negates Law in their minds, it doesn't uphold the perfected LAW of Christ, it rejects it for a "grace alone" theory. Grace covers lawlessness? No, by no means. it has been distorted, your eyes see the truth. The greatest commandment is the greatest obligation, Love is the teachings of Jesus and HE IS THE lAW OF THE UNIVERSE
I don't know how many times we have to say this but I'll do it again. The gospel of the grace of Christ is not looking for ways to NOT obey Christ. That is false and NOT true in any context..eventually it will fall on good soil and produce fruit....so I will say it again with great joy....
Here is what the so-called falsely accused "lawless grace believers" believe for being obedient to the gospel of the grace of Christ is.
Believing in Christ's finished work is being obedient to the faith and following Christ by the Holy Spirit within us which He confirms through the scriptures.
This will manifest in doing good works which stem from His life in us bearing His fruit to a hurt and dying world as well as to our brethren.
From the life of Christ in us now we continue on to being obedient to follow the Holy Spirit in us as Christ's life is manifested in us as we get our minds renewed to the revelation of Christ in us.
First Christ's obedience comes first.
Romans 5:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Romans 1:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Romans 16:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Acts 6:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
I don't know how much plainer one can be in order for these false accusations to come to a halt. I will trust in the Holy Spirit to reveal Jesus and all that He has done for us in this matter. God bless....
Here is what the so-called falsely accused "lawless grace believers" believe for being obedient to the gospel of the grace of Christ is.
Believing in Christ's finished work is being obedient to the faith and following Christ by the Holy Spirit within us which He confirms through the scriptures.
This will manifest in doing good works which stem from His life in us bearing His fruit to a hurt and dying world as well as to our brethren.
From the life of Christ in us now we continue on to being obedient to follow the Holy Spirit in us as Christ's life is manifested in us as we get our minds renewed to the revelation of Christ in us.
First Christ's obedience comes first.
Romans 5:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Romans 1:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Romans 16:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Acts 6:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
I don't know how much plainer one can be in order for these false accusations to come to a halt. I will trust in the Holy Spirit to reveal Jesus and all that He has done for us in this matter. God bless....