Dr. Michael Brown and the Sabbath Debate

mailmandan · May 8, 2016

Why are you so down on Sunday and the term "the Lord's day" and also why are you so obsessed with the Jewish Saturday Sabbath and so determined to turn keeping it into a "legalistic prescription" for Christians under the New Covenant? In Matthew 28:1, we read - Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. The first day of the week is distinct from the Sabbath day.

The early Christians began to worship God on Sunday (the Lord's Day), because the first day of the week became associated with Christ's resurrection (Matthew 28:1-10; Luke 24:1; John 20:1; Revelation 1:10). We see from Acts 20:7 and I Corinthians 16:1-3 that the early Church gathered together on the first day of every week in order to "break bread," and also to take up a "collection for the saints." Nowhere in the New Testament is the Church commanded to gather together to worship on the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath.

History records that the early Christians were worshipping on Sunday as far back as the first and second centuries A.D. For example:

"But every Lord's Day, gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, so that your sacrifice may be pure." (Didache c. 80-140)

"No longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day." (Ignatius, c. 105) Ignatius here reveals that the “Lord’s Day” is separate from the Jewish Sabbath.

"I will make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. For that reason, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead." (Barnabas c. 70-130)

"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read... But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God... made the world. And Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead on that same day." (Justin Martyr c. 160)

"There was no need of circumcision before Abraham. Nor was there need of the observance of Sabbaths, or of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses. Accordingly, there is no more need of them now." (Justin Martyr c. 160)

"We do not follow the Jews in their peculiarities in regard to food nor in their sacred days." (Tertullian c. 197)

"Just as the abolition of fleshly circumcision and of the old Law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary." (Tertullian c. 197)

"On the day of our Lord's resurrection, which is the Lord's Day, you should meet more diligently, sending praise to God who made the universe by Jesus... On this day, there is the reading of the Prophets, the preaching of the Gospel, the oblation of the sacrifice, and the gift of the holy food." (Apostolic Constitutions, compiled c.390)

mailmandan · May 8, 2016

prove-all said:

See post #18. Do you follow the teachings of Armstrong?

prove-all · May 8, 2016

mailmandan said:

LEV.19
[26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood:
neither shall ye use enchantment, (NOR OBSERVE TIMES).

[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners
of thy beard. Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any
marks upon you: I am the LORD. Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be
a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.

[30] (YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS),
and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

funny the verses say not be an OBSERVER of TIMES,
and also (YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS) in the same chapter

prove-all · May 8, 2016

sparkman said:

can you show me this in the bible,"breaking bread"without eating a meal,

mailmandan · May 8, 2016

prove-all said:

Leviticus 19:26 says - 'You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor practice divination or soothsaying." It doesn't say observe days and months and seasons and years, as it does in Galatians 4:9-11.

Of course God said you shall keep my Sabbaths to Jews who were under the Law. But as we see in the New Covenant: Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. It sounds like you are still hung up on the shadow.

Funny the verse says, "not eat anything with the blood, nor practice divination or soothsaying" and not observe days and months and seasons and years, so obviously Paul is talking about the rituals, ceremonies, and festivals of the Jewish religious calendar which God had given to the Jews and not divination or soothsaying in Galatians 4:9-11. Under the Old Covenant for Jews under the Law - "you shall keep my Sabbaths." That is not a command for Christians under the New Covenant.

sparkman · May 8, 2016

There's two Armstrongites on the forum and one of them posts on almost all imy Sabbath related threads (hint, hint).

I used to be an Armstrongite, between ages 22 and 32. I have since rejected it and attend an Evangelical Free church.

Anyways if anyone is seriously disturbed by the whole Sabbath issue, I'd recommend Michael Brown's videos as well as the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff.

Armstrongism is probably one of the worst of the Sabbath observing groups due to their claims regarding them being the "true church" and that they are going to become fully God, like God the Father and Jesus Christ, in the resurrection. They also don't believe in justification by faith alone.

By the way, every assertion made by these groups has a reasonable explanation. The only thing is that even when you present the explanation, they will make the same point over and over again, and won't consider the explanation. It's a waste of time to argue with them. They learned a rabbit-trail of Scriptures from Armstrong and they cannot veer off the rabbit-trail.

Like I said, I have no issue with Sabbath observers if they don't claim other Christians are unsaved or disobedient to God.

prove-all · May 8, 2016

sparkman said:

funny how you found the light, then after you left,
you fell back into your own very bad habits, by your admission.
and now you have a grudge againest them that is not healthy,
and now you even say you fall asleep while praying.

Did you take off your breastplate of righteousness

mailmandan · May 8, 2016

sparkman said:

There's two Armstrongites on the forum and one of them posts on almost all imy Sabbath related threads (hint, hint).

I used to be an Armstrongite, between ages 22 and 32. I have since rejected it and attend an Evangelical Free church.

Anyways if anyone is seriously disturbed by the whole Sabbath issue, I'd recommend Michael Brown's videos as well as the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff.

Armstrongism is probably one of the worst of the Sabbath observing groups due to their claims regarding them being the "true church" and that they are going to become fully God, like God the Father and Jesus Christ, in the resurrection. They also don't believe in justification by faith alone.

By the way, every assertion made by these groups has a reasonable explanation. The only thing is that even when you present the explanation, they will make the same point over and over again, and won't consider the explanation. It's a waste of time to argue with them. They learned a rabbit-trail of Scriptures from Armstrong and they cannot veer off the rabbit-trail.

Like I said, I have no issue with Sabbath observers if they don't claim other Christians are unsaved or disobedient to God.

It sounds like a cult to me, just like SDA. If you used to be an Armstrongite then you would have a better understanding of why they teach what they teach and would be better suited to debate prove-all. But like you said, may just be a waste of time arguing with such people who are stuck on their rabbit-trail.

KJV1611 · May 8, 2016

sparkman said:

There's two Armstrongites on the forum and one of them posts on almost all imy Sabbath related threads (hint, hint).

I used to be an Armstrongite, between ages 22 and 32. I have since rejected it and attend an Evangelical Free church.

Anyways if anyone is seriously disturbed by the whole Sabbath issue, I'd recommend Michael Brown's videos as well as the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff.

Armstrongism is probably one of the worst of the Sabbath observing groups due to their claims regarding them being the "true church" and that they are going to become fully God, like God the Father and Jesus Christ, in the resurrection. They also don't believe in justification by faith alone.

By the way, every assertion made by these groups has a reasonable explanation. The only thing is that even when you present the explanation, they will make the same point over and over again, and won't consider the explanation. It's a waste of time to argue with them. They learned a rabbit-trail of Scriptures from Armstrong and they cannot veer off the rabbit-trail.

Like I said, I have no issue with Sabbath observers if they don't claim other Christians are unsaved or disobedient to God.

Sabbath observers are either not saved or very unlearned in the Christian faith.

prove-all · May 8, 2016

to commemorate [His death], not the resurrection,
and was part of passover and the days of unleavened bread.
in the old testement this was the night to be most remembered.

1 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV)
Therefore let us keep the feast

so answer me this , what [feast] are they talking about here?

KJV1611 · May 8, 2016

prove-all said:

It's talking about the feast of unleavened bread, not the shadow of the feast of unleavened bread. Eating unleavened has never benefitted anyone, it has always pointed toward the inerrant word of God. Christ sacrificed and once again becoming the Word... the New Testament.

thepsalmist · May 8, 2016

Jesus has purchased a very special Sabbath with His blood ... We have rest in the Lord seven days a week ...

sparkman · May 8, 2016

mailmandan said:

It is. They know the responses that I've given and they just ignore them.

Armstrongites are full of false intellectual pride. They think they possess "the truth" , just like the JWs or Mormons.

By the way I don't really like referring to the SDAs so much anymore. While they do think they are the "remnant church" and that everyone else will eventually join them, they are a lot nicer than some of the other groups. I've only met one SDA I didn't like so much, and even he wasn't that bad.

I wouldn't even want to put them aside Armstrongites, and I realize most of their doctrinal issues.

Some SDAs are evangelical. I know that some are not as well..traditionalists. But, I like some SDAs like gotime. He's always been friendly to me despite me stepping over the line sometimes.

sparkman · May 8, 2016

KJV1611 said:

I wouldn't say that with regards to all Sabbathkeepers. I know Messianic Jews, such as Jews for Jesus, who observe the Sabbath and festivals for cultural reasons, and I have other friends who are Sabbathkeepers who are knowledgeable of the Bible.

It's really a private decision as Paul said in Romans 14. However, some of them make these things a mandatory observance for all believers and that is where the problem lies. I have no issue with Sabbath observers if they don't make such claims.

If a Sabbath observer states that he doesn't believe non-observers are living in sin, I'm good with them. I can even agree that the practices have value. The ones which claim non-observers are in sin are the ones I have issues with. And I was one of those guys at one time

The Armstrongites here, though, attempt to bully others with their supposed superior knowledge about these issues. They don't realize the holes in their arguments. Since their understanding is at a superficial level, it seems coherent but it's not as coherent as they think it is.

Sabbath and festivals were shadows and types that are present within the Old Covenant which have value. Gentiles were able to bypass that and come into full blown Christianity immediately, though. So, the observances are not required but they may have value, much like preschool has value prior to entering into kindergarten. And, for commemorative purposes, I think they could still have value for some Christians.

Armstrongism is a different situation from most other Sabbath observers due to their God family doctrine (that the redeemed will become fully God like God the Father and Jesus Christ), the denial of justification by faith alone, and their belief that they have "the truth" and that non-Sabbath observers are part of the "great prostitute of Babylon" of Revelation 17. They view the Roman Catholic church as being the "great prostitute" and the Protestant churches as being the offspring of the Roman Catholic church. Sabbath-breaking is viewed as the mark of the Beast by them.

I believed all of this as an Armstrogite. It can seem coherent if you've been taught the "rabbit trail" of Scripture that Herbert Armstrong concocted, but if you read books of the Bible in context, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

sparkman · May 8, 2016

prove-all said:

Hmm..have you ever fallen askeep in prayer? I also have health issues by the way.

I didn't find the light in Armstrongism. I was saved in spite of it, and lived in spiritual poverty while I was part of them. I didn't even understand fully what the word "grace" meant as an Armstrongite. And, I didn't understand justification by faith alone.

I don't have a grudge against Armstrongites. The reason I get involved sometimes is to avoid you and john832 attempting to bully non-observers here with your supposed spiritual knowledge.

Many of the individuals I respected within Worldwide Church of God accepted their doctrinal error and left Armstrongism, so I would have little to hold a grudge against. I was treated with respect in the church anyways, as I was loyal to church teaching before the reforms.

Herbert Armstrong is a disappointment to me, though, especially after learning that he very likely committed incest against his daughter yet remained in the ministry. He never publicly refuted those charges, and that, to me, seems to be an admission of guilt. If I had been accused of incest, I definitely would have refuted the charges.

Regarding my personal failings, I am glad that you have kept so close an close eye on my words that you know about those things. Let me just say that I glory in the grace of God and his mercy toward me in all my failings, and I am glad I know that I am eternally secure. That is a peace of mind you will never know as an Armstrongite. I have been forgiven and restored. All praise belongs to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

So, if your remark concerning the breastplate of righteousness means you think I've lost my salvation, no, I haven't. I can't lose it. I'm eternally secure. And, God knows my health issues as well, and he knows how much I hate falling asleep in prayer. Regardless, you're not my fruit inspector

sparkman · May 8, 2016

prove-all said:

If you're asking me, Paul was probably making a metaphoric allusion to the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

The Jews at Corinth were likely observing the festivals...perhaps even the Gentiles in the congregation were as well. Corinth, like most of the Gentile churches, had BOTH a Jewish and Gentile membership. So, claiming that Gentiles were observing the festivals because the church was in a Gentile city is bogus, as there were both Jews and Gentiles in the same congregation.

The Jewish portion could have been observing the festivals, or both Jewish and Gentile portion could have been observing them. It's hard to say. And, it doesn't really make a difference as Colossians 2:16-17 says that the Sabbath and festivals wre only shadows anyways, and that no one was to be judged in regards to them.

The Mosaic Covenant, including these observances, was given to ancient Israel and not to the Church. Most Jews in the early church continued to observe these things, even physical circumcision, as Acts 21 indicates. However, the Mosaic Covenant was not applicable anymore after Christ's death, although the Jews were not aware of this for some period of time. Namely when the Gentiles begun to be added to the church, this issue regarding the Mosaic law came up. Read Acts 15, II Corinthians 3, Hebrews 8 and 9, Galatians 3 and 4 (and the whole book of Galatians), Ephesians 2:13-15, and Romans 7:1-6 to see that the Mosaic Covenant is not applicable anymore. Read Mark 7 and Romans 14 in regards to the clean/unclean meat laws. Read Colossians 2:16-17 in regards to the Sabbath and festivals.

You already know all my responses on this issue, and the many questions I've given that you've been unable to answer on this topic. Like, why is Sabbath-breaking and eating unclean meats never addressed in Paul's epistles to the Gentile churches, and why are they never listed on any of the sin lists of the Gentiles? Why does John call the festivals "feasts of the Jews" in his gospel? What would happen if a slave of a Gentile master wouldn't allow him to keep the Sabbath? Would he forfeit his salvation if he didn't keep the Sabbath? Why don't we read about such conflicts in the Church?

At any rate, prove-all, I don't care what you believe on these topics. Per Romans 14, you have the liberty to observe days and clean/unclean laws if you want. The bigger issues with Armstrongism, in my opinion, relate to the God Family doctrine, as claiming you will be fully God in the resurrection is a serious issue. There is only one God, and there will be no other as he clearly states in Isaiah 43:10

Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.

So, unlike Armstrongites claim, there will be NO GOD after YHVH. Since the Trinity doctrine teaches that there is one God yet three Persons, there is no contradiction with orthodox Christianity in this verse, but in the Armstrongite view, there's a big contradiction...as Armstrong proposes that God is a family unto which redeemed humans will be added. There are no gods after the true God, according to this verse.

Therefore the God Family doctrine is false.

Redeemed human beings will be like Christ, but they are like Christ in the sense that they will have resurrection bodies, like Christ had. These are bodies which are still physical, but changed in composition to be incorruptible, etcetera, just like the body of Christ that the disciples touched. They will not be God like Christ is God though.

Budman · May 8, 2016

prove-all said:

the bible says the law was ordained unto life, and Wherefore [the law is holy],
and the commandment holy, and just, and good. - the law was [not] the curse
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/134102-take-ten-commandments.html#post2564064

also the handwriting of requirements-the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/134102-take-ten-commandments.html#post2564035

that is not the reasons God gave his Sabbaths and laws,

“Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them,
that they might know that I am the [Eternal] that sanctify them.

But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness:
they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments,

which if [a man do], he[God] shall even [live in] them; [men-us]

and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury
upon them in the wilderness, to consume them”(Ezekiel 20:12-13).

-sounds like they had a choice wether to obey or not, was Abraham unable to?

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge,
my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
because thou hast [obeyed my voice].

even in THE LATTER DAYS, if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be OBEDIENT UNTO HIS VOICE; - [The Voice] -
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/132104-keep-4th-command-2.html#post2506557

But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be
my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land
of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

the promises and the covenants of God, all the sonship and the glory,
belong sole to Israel (Romans 9:4).

And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/134268-when-actual-sabbath-7.html#post2590354

-

why was [the oracles of God] given to us?
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/132196-what-easter-4.html#post2524866

the New Covenant validates God's laws by putting them right into
the minds and hearts of true Christians!

Jesus "magnified" God's law (Isaiah 42:21, KJV). He taught that Christians are
not to murder, and must not even harbor an attitude of hate (Matthew 5:21–24)

"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).

Christ came "to confirm the promises made to the fathers" (Romans 15:8).
He outlined the terms and conditions of the New Covenant, saying:
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God" (Luke 4:4; Deu 8:3).

As He explained: "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the
kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier
for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail" (Luke 16:16–17).

You do realize those verses are actually a challenge to those who insist keeping the Law is a requirement for salvation - either obtaining it initially, or the continuance of it.

If one insists, then the command is one must keep all of the Law. Every jot and tittle.

The lesson to be learned is that no one can keep the Law - not even the Jews to whom it was given. It's to show you that our only hope is Christ's blood, shed on the cross. That, and that alone.

Law and Grace go together like oil and water. They do not mix.

oldethennew · May 8, 2016

this hatred is becoming something that is palpable....

it is infecting this forum and driving Christians away...

MsSuzanna · May 8, 2016

oldethennew said:

True christians dont run away. They defend the truth. just sayin

oldethennew · May 8, 2016

MsSuzanna said:

======================================================

the Holy Spirit leads us in which direction to go,,,there are no pat answers in any situation,
we must always go in the direction that the Holy Spirit directs us to go,,,

Dr. Michael Brown and the Sabbath Debate

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