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Water baptism is NOT where people are regenerated ( born-again) and receive "remission of sins" as is falsely taught by some religions.
Here we see the NT pattern with Peter. We hear, we believe, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit where we are baptized into the body of Christ..then we get water baptized as a representation of what happened when we believed in Christ.
But the regeneration and receiving the remission of sins comes first.
Acts 10:43-48 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
[SUP]46 [/SUP] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
[SUP]47 [/SUP] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
[SUP]48 [/SUP] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
Paul shows the process as well in Ephesians.
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Here we see the NT pattern with Peter. We hear, we believe, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit where we are baptized into the body of Christ..then we get water baptized as a representation of what happened when we believed in Christ.
But the regeneration and receiving the remission of sins comes first.
Acts 10:43-48 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
[SUP]46 [/SUP] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
[SUP]47 [/SUP] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
[SUP]48 [/SUP] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
Paul shows the process as well in Ephesians.
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
If water baptism is needed in order obtain the remission of sins and to have regeneration happen as is falsely taught by some.
When did the disciples get water baptized after Christ died on the cross and then was resurrected? They would still need to have been water baptized after Christ's death and resurrection before they could be regenerated and to receive the remission of sins according to the water regeneration theory.
Even if they were water baptized by John - this still doesn't negate the need to be water baptized AFTER Christ rose from the dead as the "water baptism regenerationists believe" - in order to have remission of sins and to be regenerated. John's baptism was different from Christ's baptism that He gives to the believers.
When Peter said to the whole group of Jews in Acts 2:38...repent and be baptized.....there must have been many of them there that were already baptized by John because it seems that only the Pharisees/Sadducees and scribes didn't get water baptized by John. So, that throws a whole other wrench into the mix here.
There are so many holes in this false teaching about needing to be water baptized in order to receive remission of sins and the regeneration for the Holy Spirit.
This completely violates all the clear, multiple scriptures to believe on Christ to be saved. Look at Acts 10:43-48 - clearly they were saved first and had already received the Holy Spirit - which is being born-again by the Spirit and being baptized into the body of Christ...then they were water baptized.
When did the disciples get water baptized after Christ died on the cross and then was resurrected? They would still need to have been water baptized after Christ's death and resurrection before they could be regenerated and to receive the remission of sins according to the water regeneration theory.
Even if they were water baptized by John - this still doesn't negate the need to be water baptized AFTER Christ rose from the dead as the "water baptism regenerationists believe" - in order to have remission of sins and to be regenerated. John's baptism was different from Christ's baptism that He gives to the believers.
When Peter said to the whole group of Jews in Acts 2:38...repent and be baptized.....there must have been many of them there that were already baptized by John because it seems that only the Pharisees/Sadducees and scribes didn't get water baptized by John. So, that throws a whole other wrench into the mix here.
There are so many holes in this false teaching about needing to be water baptized in order to receive remission of sins and the regeneration for the Holy Spirit.
This completely violates all the clear, multiple scriptures to believe on Christ to be saved. Look at Acts 10:43-48 - clearly they were saved first and had already received the Holy Spirit - which is being born-again by the Spirit and being baptized into the body of Christ...then they were water baptized.
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Then water baptism cannot be the source or cause of being born of water/receiving the second birth.
The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."
As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - water baptism is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it.
The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."
As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - water baptism is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it.
I think Jesus was saying that the Spirit was not going to indwell US until Jesus left... I don't think He meant that the Spirit was not here, already, in the world.
I believe there are many scriptures that point to the fact that the Spirit has been in the world all along, as has Jesus... Just not physically walking on the earth, or indwelling humans, until the birth, then resurrection of Jesus.
I believe there are many scriptures that point to the fact that the Spirit has been in the world all along, as has Jesus... Just not physically walking on the earth, or indwelling humans, until the birth, then resurrection of Jesus.
I agree....some people see the word "baptized" and all they can think about is water. Being baptized has been used as a representation in scripture and obviously it speaks of what happened to believers in Christ when they believed.
Acts 10:43-48 clearly shows that people get water baptized after receiving the Holy Spirit when they were baptized into the body of Christ when they believed after hearing the gospel of the grace of Christ. Eph. 1:13 shows this truth too.
Here is an example of baptize being used in relation to Moses as a representative of something else besides water.
1 Corinthians 10:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
In their religion of "no one is regenerated or receives the remission of sins" until they get water baptized. This means that if someone dies before they get water baptized - they have no regeneration nor have received the remission of sins - which means they go to hell.
This doctrine is so anti-Christ and anti-the gospel that I can hardly believe any Christian could even think it. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ's work...period!
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What is interesting is how some co-called believers can totally reject what the Holy Spirit says to teach a different Gospel!
Galatians 1:6-9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; [SUP]7 [/SUP]which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! [SUP]9 [/SUP]As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Be careful on what you teach HeRoseFromTheDead because you are not fighting against us, you are actually fighting against the Holy Spirit!
Galatians 1:6-9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; [SUP]7 [/SUP]which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! [SUP]9 [/SUP]As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Be careful on what you teach HeRoseFromTheDead because you are not fighting against us, you are actually fighting against the Holy Spirit!
I apologize to brainfreeze regarding an earlier comment. I was basing my views on some posts that he 'liked'
but I know that's not always the best gauge and should be looked at in combination with the persons posts and replies. I didn't do that this time with brainfreeze, and I wanted to apologize to him publicly since this is where I made the earlier comment.
Brainfreeze made some good posts earlier in other threads that were erased regarding the false-teaching heresy that water-baptism is a requirement without which there us no salvation, and I was concerned that he was turning to that kind of legalism in this thread, but I may have been too quick to come to that conclusion, and my comments unfounded. I apologize, brainfreeze. Sincerely, B1
but I know that's not always the best gauge and should be looked at in combination with the persons posts and replies. I didn't do that this time with brainfreeze, and I wanted to apologize to him publicly since this is where I made the earlier comment.
Brainfreeze made some good posts earlier in other threads that were erased regarding the false-teaching heresy that water-baptism is a requirement without which there us no salvation, and I was concerned that he was turning to that kind of legalism in this thread, but I may have been too quick to come to that conclusion, and my comments unfounded. I apologize, brainfreeze. Sincerely, B1
Yes, it is so obvious that Spiritual rebirth is the one that saves, the one attested to in all four gospels by John the Baptist to be administered by fire (not water) via the Holy Spirit of God by Jesus Christ. Scripture is very clear about it, as far as some can see, and Scripture does make rather plain, that man is in need of this Spiritual regeneration. In fact it is a major component of the whole of Scripture taken together. Others cling to rebirth/salvation through water baptism, and one even claimed Jesus said we must be born again of water, but that was obviously an error, and not the only error made, either. Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. That is what He said, and as Christians, generally speaking, we believe that is what He did.
Ok, yes, Jesus, Yah, and Holy Spirit were always here... But as you said it CAN NOT come to us (Holy Spirit) without Him (Jesus)leaving.. and I don't believe they're all the same thing. The Spirits are just that, ( the Holy Spirit ) is just that, The Spirit of The Word, is just that. They do have to do with one another but are different.
I don't mind discussing with someone who doesn't just stick firmly to stuff, that can be disputed ... I appreciate your humbleness.
I don't mind discussing with someone who doesn't just stick firmly to stuff, that can be disputed ... I appreciate your humbleness.
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water baptism is to the gentile church what circumcision was to the jewish church, a stumbling stone to grace.
Satan sure did win great battles with this debate.. If he can teach you the physical act must be performed to be saved, he can teach you a works based Gospel which looks good on paper but will be rejected by Christ on judgment day.
Satan sure did win great battles with this debate.. If he can teach you the physical act must be performed to be saved, he can teach you a works based Gospel which looks good on paper but will be rejected by Christ on judgment day.
Actually, I was criticizing B1 for the tactics he constantly uses, which are usually over nit-picky points.
If you wish to make something else out of that, then have at it.
Most adults can read my post and understand what was being said.
It's you guys (and girl) that apparently LIVE to "fight" on the web that make civil discussion difficult, if not impossible.
To those of you like that, it's a contest to see who can be the nastiest and meanest, and who can come up with the wittiest hateful comment. Whoever does that, WINS...
Why don't you, instead, try to have a civil discussion, disagreeing like adults, and learn to make your points through scripture and logic, instead of confrontation and hatefulness?
If you wish to make something else out of that, then have at it.
Most adults can read my post and understand what was being said.
It's you guys (and girl) that apparently LIVE to "fight" on the web that make civil discussion difficult, if not impossible.
To those of you like that, it's a contest to see who can be the nastiest and meanest, and who can come up with the wittiest hateful comment. Whoever does that, WINS...
Why don't you, instead, try to have a civil discussion, disagreeing like adults, and learn to make your points through scripture and logic, instead of confrontation and hatefulness?