Hell. It is in the Bible isnt it?

[Ahwatukee]

Hello VCO,

I am not a fan of Soul Sleep Theology, but doesn't your linking of spirit/soul opinion give more credence to Soul Sleep Theology, than you would ever want to:

Job 33:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

Psalm 16:10 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 30:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] O LORD, You brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

You bring up some valid points Orville. First, Job 33:22 is the pit and Ps.16:10 and 30:3 both use the word Sheol, which I believe is referring to his spirit/soul departing to the "underworld, the place to which the spirits/souls of people descend at death and is not in reference to the grave.

Since we already have plenty of scriptures that demonstrate conscious awareness of the spirit/soul after death, soul-sleep is not an option as far as I am concerned. Again, it has to do with the understanding of the dividing of soul and spirit. For example, at the 5th seal we have those saints that had been slain who are under the altar in heaven referred to as "Souls." In other scriptures we have the word "Pneuma" translated as "spirit" as in departing from the body such as Jairus' daughter of whom it says that when Jesus took her by the hand her spirit returned to her. I believe that the soul and the spirit, though separate, remain together and their attributes compliment each other.

"But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up."

"When he opened the fifth seal, Isaw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained."

Because of the many scriptures that demonstrate conscious existence of the soul/spirit after the death of the body and the references to death referring to being asleep, I believe that "sleep" is referring only to the body and not the soul/spirit. If we take the rich man and Lazarus as an actual event, then we have two men of whom it was said had died and then their spirit/souls are found somewhere else. Not only do we have these two men, but we also have Abraham who is having a conversation with the rich man who can see, and feel, because he is in torment in flame, can speak and reason, not wanting his brothers to come to the same place of torment that he had. Therefore the reference to "sleeping" would appear to refer only to the state of the body, which will eventually be resurrected.

So, it appears that both soul and spirit are used in reference to the essence of a human being existing somewhere else after departing from the body. Beyond that I could not venture to begin to give a definition between both soul and spirit. All I do know is that, the essence of who the person was in life is released from the body at the time of death and the body is just the vessel that contains the soul/spirit.

 

[VCO]

Hello VCO,




You bring up some valid points Orville. First, Job 33:22 is the pit and Ps.16:10 and 30:3 both use the word Sheol, which I believe is referring to his spirit/soul departing to the "underworld, the place to which the spirits/souls of people descend at death and is not in reference to the grave.

Since we already have plenty of scriptures that demonstrate conscious awareness of the spirit/soul after death, soul-sleep is not an option as far as I am concerned. Again, it has to do with the understanding of the dividing of soul and spirit. For example, at the 5th seal we have those saints that had been slain who are under the altar in heaven referred to as "Souls." In other scriptures we have the word "Pneuma" translated as "spirit" as in departing from the body such as Jairus' daughter of whom it says that when Jesus took her by the hand her spirit returned to her. I believe that the soul and the spirit, though separate, remain together and their attributes compliment each other.

"But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up."

"When he opened the fifth seal, Isaw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained."

Because of the many scriptures that demonstrate conscious existence of the soul/spirit after the death of the body and the references to death referring to being asleep, I believe that "sleep" is referring only to the body and not the soul/spirit. If we take the rich man and Lazarus as an actual event, then we have two men of whom it was said had died and then their spirit/souls are found somewhere else. Not only do we have these two men, but we also have Abraham who is having a conversation with the rich man who can see, and feel, because he is in torment in flame, can speak and reason, not wanting his brothers to come to the same place of torment that he had. Therefore the reference to "sleeping" would appear to refer only to the state of the body, which will eventually be resurrected.

So, it appears that both soul and spirit are used in reference to the essence of a human being existing somewhere else after departing from the body. Beyond that I could not venture to begin to give a definition between both soul and spirit. All I do know is that, the essence of who the person was in life is released from the body at the time of death and the body is just the vessel that contains the soul/spirit.

However, if the definition of Soul is the sum total of intangible parts of the human brain, then it dies at the same time as the body, hence the term "brain dead". I do not remember a verse that says the soul departs, perhaps you can show me. However it specifically says that the spirit departs. As I pointed out Souls, can in the Greek usage be euphemism human beings, therefore I think the HCSB was correct to change that to "people" under the altar. The fact that John also used the term souls for all the beings or life forms in the sea, shatters the concept that souls is a reference to something beyond "mortal beings", which would make it similar to the human spirit.

It would appear that Old Testament believers thought the Soul can die:

Jonah 4:8 (YLT)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And it cometh to pass, about the rising of the sun, that God appointeth a cutting east wind, and the sun smiteth on the head of Jonah, and he wrappeth himself up, and asketh his soul to die, and saith, `Better is my death than my life.'

Isaiah 53:12 (YLT)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.

1 Samuel 28:9 (YLT)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And the woman saith unto him, `Lo, thou hast known that which Saul hath done, that he hath cut off those having familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land; and why art thou laying a snare for my soul--to put me to death?'

And then how do you explain how JAMES worded this?:

James 5:20 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hey VCO,

So, how would you explain the rich man and Lazarus or the souls under the altar? I don't see a problem with them retaining their essence of who they are in the spirit/soul after the death of the body. It seems as though that when a person is alive, the brain works in unison with the soul/spirit, but retains the essence of the person in spirit form after death. What other conclusion can we come to since we have scripture of the rich man and Lazarus, Moses and Elijah meeting with Jesus and the souls under the altar, who obviously are the same people they were when they were in their bodies, as they are recorded as asking the Lord about vengeance upon those who killed them.

Regarding death, personally, I have come to understand death through scripture, just like life, as a state of existence and not annihilation or non-existence. Again, we have to go back the previous examples, Spirit or soul or both? Something of the person is existing after the death of the body, else, how could we have these examples of people being conscious and aware after the death of the body?

James 5:20 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Again, we need to understand what is meant by "death," which, as I stated previously, I believe that death is a state of existence, not non-existence. In 1 Thes.4:14 in describing the resurrection, Paul said that Jesus is going to bring with him, i.e. when he descends from heaven, those who have died in him, i.e. their spirits, at which point they will be reunited with their resurrected, immortal and glorified bodies. This would demonstrate that their are soul/spirit of the those who have died in Christ who will been in His presence and will descend with the Lord to receive their resurrected bodies.

 

[Armini3]

wow pg 44 we made it!... how bout we chalk this thread as its the sovereignty of God and his decision what he wants to do with unbelieving soul/spirits after the judgment its really none of our business an pretty sure not bringing much glory to him speculating, Its what ever his will is and that settles it...not like were going to change his mind about it.

 

[organicbeast]

Yeah, I'm with you! I asked God for a quick vision of Hell just to motivate me (evangelism ) and instead I get walk through...it was absolutely horrible and there is a very dangerous doctrine going around that hell isn't eternal. I saw eternal torment of mental pain and anguish in this fire that never goes out. This is the 2nd time God has showed me that hell was eternal. I used to be an Annihilationist.

Hmm.. quite interesting.

It says in the Bible that God is Love. And Christ shed His very own blood for our sins so that we may LIVE and not DIE or be tortured for all eternity. And He died for all mankind. Right? So, how can God can act and execute torture for all eternity in nature that is a complete oxymoron to his eternal state of Love?

Matt 10:28 says this:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Philippians 1:28
"and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God."

Philippians 3:19
"Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things."

Romans 9:28
"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"

2 Peter 2:12
"But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,"

2 Peter 3:7
"But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."


Merriam Websters definition of the word "destruction":

• :the act or process of damaging something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired : the act or process of destroying something

What is your understanding of the word 'destruction' ? And what did the Lord Jesus tell you regarding the above 7 verses?

 

[organicbeast]

Even Hitler's victims were given the respite of death. The idea of my God sadistically torturing people for all eternity is morally repugnant to me.
People who preach the gospel of hell have a very large misunderstanding of God's character.

Yep, and God would become an eternal oxymoron of hate to his eternal nature of Love if He consciously tortures human souls. That is a contradiction and can't be true because, there are like 7 verses in the N.T that clearly contradict the doctrine of eternal conscious torment: Matt 10:28, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Philippians 1:28, Philippians 3:19, Romans 9:28, 2 Peter 2:12, 2 Peter 3:7

And finally as Romans 2:6 says:
"He will render to each one according to his works:"

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hmm.. quite interesting.

It says in the Bible that God is Love. And Christ shed His very own blood for our sins so that we may LIVE and not DIE or be tortured for all eternity. And He died for all mankind. Right? So, how can God can act and execute torture for all eternity in nature that is a complete oxymoron to his eternal state of Love?

Matt 10:28 says this:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Philippians 1:28
"and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God."

Philippians 3:19
"Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things."

Romans 9:28
"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"

2 Peter 2:12
"But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,"

2 Peter 3:7
"But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."


Merriam Websters definition of the word "destruction":

• :the act or process of damaging something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired : the act or process of destroying something

What is your understanding of the word 'destruction' ? And what did the Lord Jesus tell you regarding the above 7 verses?

Hello organicbeast,

First of all, yes, Jesus did die for our sins and His payment for each individual is dependent upon receiving Him and repenting. Anyone who doesn't receive Him remains in an unreconciled state. Scripture states the following:

"Whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the Son does not have life and the wrath of God rests upon him."

So, Christ's payment for sin is not a blanket salvation, but requires faith from the individual. Anyone who doesn't receive Him, merely remains in the same sinful state that they have always been in.

Also, the word "Apollumi" translated "Destroy" and its noun "Apoleia" are not defined as annihilation or extinction, but infer complete loss of well being and ruination while existing. People often attach their own meaning to the translated word "destroy" without doing research on the actual Greek word. Case in point, you went to Websters for the English translation of a Greek word. I would suggest actually looking at the words translated in the original Greek.

Also, God's love and mercy, does not negate his righteous judgment.

 

[organicbeast]

It makes God sovereign. You judging God now? You deny scripture.

It seems you are influenced by the doctrine of the DEMONS more than the doctrine of Christ:

Matt 10:28 says this:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Philippians 1:28
"and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of theirdestruction, but of your salvation, and that from God."

Philippians 3:19
"Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things."

Romans 9:28
"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"

2 Peter 2:12
"But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,"

2 Peter 3:7
"But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."


Merriam Websters definition of the word "destruction":

• :the act or process of damaging something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired : the act or process of destroying something

How would you address the above 7 verses that clearly speak of destruction?

 

[organicbeast]

Hello organicbeast,

First of all, yes, Jesus did die for our sins and His payment for each individual is dependent upon receiving Him and repenting. Anyone who doesn't receive Him remains in an unreconciled state. Scripture states the following:

"Whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the Son does not have life and the wrath of God rests upon him."

So, Christ's payment for sin is not a blanket salvation, but requires faith from the individual. Anyone who doesn't receive Him, merely remains in the same sinful state that they have always been in.

Also, the word "Apollumi" translated "Destroy" and its noun "Apoleia" are not defined as annihilation or extinction, but infer complete loss of well being and ruination while existing. People often attach their own meaning to the translated word "destroy" without doing research on the actual Greek word. Case in point, you went to Websters for the English translation of a Greek word. I would suggest actually looking at the words translated in the original Greek.

Also, God's love and mercy, does not negate his righteous judgment.

I don't think so sir. You are taking one of the possible meanings and assigning your belief to it. Whereas, besides loss it also means destruction

Strong's Concordance

apóleia: destruction, loss​

Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss
Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin

God's righteous judgement means that He shall offer equal recompense in punishment and then eternal destruction. A human soul that lives a short life on earth, no matter how evil, eternal conscious torment is not justifiable to a soul that did not live a life of eternity on earth. That sort of punishment is justifiable for the Serpent/Satan.

Romans 2:6 says:
"He will render to each one according to his works"

 

[Ahwatukee]

I don't think so sir. You are taking one of the possible meanings and assigning your belief to it. Whereas, besides loss it also means destruction

I don't think, I know. Here is the definition of the Greek word Olethros, so that you can see it for yourself:

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

The word "Olethros" is translated as "destruction" above. Now, look at the Greek definition below:

3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

I am showing you what the actual Greek word translated as "destruction" means and as you can see, in the definition, it states that olethros doe not imply extinction or annihilation. If don't believe that, you are just ignoring the scriptural facts. Your error is the same as many, that being, attaching your own meaning to the translated word "destruction," which doesn't mean annihilation or non-existence.

 

[Ahwatukee]

They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

In the scripture above, being tormented would require an individual to exist in order to experience the torment. Likewise, in order for the smoke of their torment to rise up for ever and ever, one would have to be existing in order experience torment. The words "No rest" day or night, is defined as not having any cessation or intermission from said torment. I'll use MsSuzannas example and that being, those who are annihilated cannot weep or gnash their teeth.

Why don't you come away from the false teaching that you have adopted and trust in the word of God? God will punish eternally.

 

[kedge]

JESUS NEVER gave a name to anyone when it was only a parable.

What does that matter? anyone can give an illustration using names and places but it doesn't necessarily refer to a real occasion or event or place.

I also noticed you used "spirit/soul" exists forever. I think that is a common mistake that adds to the confusion that spirit and soul are the same thing. I think even our translators added to that confusion?

Coming here has clouded my vision, it makes me as far-as-I-see and makes me sad-you-see.

 

[organicbeast]

I don't think, I know. Here is the definition of the Greek word Olethros, so that you can see it for yourself:

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

The word "Olethros" is translated as "destruction" above. Now, look at the Greek definition below:

3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

I am showing you what the actual Greek word translated as "destruction" means and as you can see, in the definition, it states that olethros doe not imply extinction or annihilation. If don't believe that, you are just ignoring the scriptural facts. Your error is the same as many, that being, attaching your own meaning to the translated word "destruction," which doesn't mean annihilation or non-existence.

Strong's Concordance

olethros: destruction, death​

Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
Definition: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

Again it means ruin, doom, destruction and death.

"however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation)" .

Ok, but NAS exhaustive concordance says the same thing below.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from ollumi (to destroy)
Definition
destruction, death
NASB Translation
destroyed (1), destruction (3), ruin (1).

 

[Ahwatukee]

Strong's Concordance

olethros: destruction, death​

Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
Definition: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

Again it means ruin, doom, and death. Who said he doesn't imply "extinction" ? God? No, but man.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from ollumi (to destroy)
Definition
destruction, death
NASB Translation
destroyed (1), destruction (3), ruin (1).

Obviously you didn't read what is in red above, "destruction" is the translation of olethros which doesn't imply extinction or annihilation.

 

[organicbeast]

Obviously you didn't read what is in red above, "destruction" is the translation of olethros which doesn't imply extinction or annihilation.

Yes it does. Destruction is Destruction. Complete doom and death.

Also it comes from the root word, "ollumi" which means 'to destroy' 'death'

So the word 'olethros' would mean otherwise, if the root word means death and destruction? Sorry I disagree with you.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes it does. Destruction is Destruction. Complete doom and death.

Also it comes from the root word, "ollumi" which means 'to destroy' 'death'

So the word 'olethros' would mean otherwise, if the root word means death and destruction? Sorry I disagree with you.

And therein lies your problem, the word "destruction" instead of the word "olethros" which is where the word "destruction" is being translated from. If I was to paraphrase that verse, it would go like the following:

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

"They will be punished with everlasting, complete loss of well being and ruin and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."

This is what the word "olethros" is defined as, but the translators have to use a word to encompass the description of "complete loss of well being and ruination" and so some choose the word "destruction" which according to olethros does not imply annihilation or extinction. If you want to continue in this belief, you are free to do so, but let it be on your own head

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello kedge,

What does that matter? anyone can give an illustration using names and places but it doesn't necessarily refer to a real occasion or event or place.

It matters very much and that because parables are defined by the use of symbolism to represent the literal, which is their main identifiable characteristics. So, when someone comes along and attempts to define the rich man and Lazarus as a parable, it has none of those characteristics. And that because, as VCO claimed, Jesus used the names of literal people and the literal location of Hades, which is used elsewhere in the NT. It doesn't have any of the characteristics of a parable. And, when people force the rich man and Lazarus into being a parable, it loses the meaning that the Lord meant to convey.

 

[kedge]

it loses the meaning that the Lord meant to convey.

Fair enough Ahwatukee, you are intelligent are zealous and I do think you mean well, so much love to you fellow man fellow neighbour. Going back to the original thread title (Hell. It is in the Bible isnt it?) I am just trying to understand what all of us are trying to establish? that hell is a place where bad people who did bad deeds in this life are tortured and suffer for all eternity in another realm? the immortality of the soul? what is the soul of mankind? how does one figure out when the Bible is to be understood in a literal sense or in a figurative sense?, I mean, who makes that call on the meaning of Scripture? I know some say, well, ask God through Jesus to make it known to you, I pray about it, then leave it be but I always end up researching it, because I don't understand it, I just think I do. So I end up finding things like this below and some words really stand out to me.


What some others say, "The message of the Bible is that we are not immortal, but that God wants to give us immortality"


The unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia

IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL
(late Hebrew, "hasharat ha-nefesh"; "ḥayye 'olam"):

By: Kaufmann Kohler

The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel ( et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times


On the Immortality of the Soul

Stephen Elliott

Most religions teach that after death, a soul within us leaves the body and lives on for eternity. Many people assume it is also a biblical belief, but is it? What exactly is the history of this idea?

Humans have always wondered and worried about what happens after death. Many modern religions teach that we will live again, but archaeologists tell us that even ancient Neanderthals buried their loved ones with grave goods for the afterlife.

Today most of the religious world believes in an immortal soul that lives on in some form. It is a shared teaching of Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and Bahá’í, as well as of native and tribal religions throughout Africa, the Americas and elsewhere. Some say that soul will live forever in either a heaven or a hell. Others suppose that after death the soul will reanimate other life forms in an endless cycle of reincarnation. Most nonbelievers, of course, dispute the idea of a soul, being convinced that after death there is only nothingness.

“The Osiris-Isis mythology was central to Egyptian notions of the afterlife.”

“Plato’s notions of the afterlife . . . penetrated Jewish culture deeply.”

“In the thirteenth century, Dante’s Divine Comedy mapped out very exceptionally picturesque and graphic images of heaven and hell, which became canonical Christian dogma, promulgated throughout the Byzantine world and Europe.”


Christianity and Beyond

Today, thanks largely to church fathers Irenaeus and Augustine (see “Augustine’s Poisoned Chalice”), most Christians blend the nonbiblical idea of an immortal soul with the biblical promise of resurrection and arrive at their own doctrine of immortality. This view reads the New Testament as though it teaches a form of Platonism (see “Dante Alighieri and The Divine Comedy”), and so it accepts that after the body dies, the soul continues and at the resurrection is combined with a spiritual body. Soul has come to mean that all humans were endowed with immortality either at creation or by a gift already given through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.


“After an initial and telling phase of rejection, Platonism became the cornerstone of the Christian doctrine of immortality of the soul.”



Most Christians believe that after death their immortal souls will spend eternity in heaven, yet the apostle John also recorded these surprising words of Jesus: “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven” (John 3:13). Not even King David, described as “a man after God’s own heart,” is in heaven according to the apostle Peter: “Let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:29, 34).

The apostle Paul wrote at length of the hope of the dead. In 1 Corinthians 15, often referred to as the resurrection chapter, he spoke of those who had died as having “fallen asleep” (verses 6, 18, 20). He wrote that “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive”—first Christ, and then “those who are Christ’s at His coming” (verses 22–23, emphasis added throughout). Note that prior to Christ’s second coming, none of the dead have been “made alive” yet; they’re asleep, just as David is asleep—dead and buried.

Paul went on to explain to the Corinthian church that “we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. . . . The dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (verses 51–53).

The message of the Bible is that we are not immortal, but that God wants to give us immortality: “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello again kedge,

I am just trying to understand what all of us are trying to establish? that hell is a place where bad people who did bad deeds in this life are tortured and suffer for all eternity in another realm?

The above is not exactly accurate. Because of the fall of Adam and Eve, when they disobeyed God, sin entered into the world. Through one man came sin and through sin, death. Scripture states that, non are righteous, no not one. All have sinned and fall short of God's standards of righteousness. This means that everyone who comes into the world is already on their way to condemning judgment and that because of sin. In other words, everyone is bad! The only way to be reconciled to God, through faith in Jesus Christ who was without sin, but paid penalty for sin. Those who have faith in Him are credited with righteousness, for no one is entitled to salvation. For those who are having faith, God imputes Christ's righteousness to them. God sees us through the spectacles of Christ. Therefore, since faith in Christ is the only way of reconciliation to God, anyone who rejects him and dies in that state, remains in their sins with God's wrath resting on them. For scripture states that, unless there is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins.

how does one figure out when the Bible is to be understood in a literal sense or in a figurative sense?, I mean, who makes that call on the meaning of Scripture?

If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense. Symbolism should only be applied with it is obvious. Here are some examples:

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"The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

“ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”

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* The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man

* The field is the world

* the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom

* The weeds are the people of the evil one

* the enemy who sows them is the devil

* The harvest is the end of the age

* The harvesters are angels

Parables/allegories, are distinguished be symbolism representing something or someone literal. One of the major problems with expositors today is interpreting what is meant to be literal into symbolic, basically forcing the issue. Once this has been accomplished, God's original meaning is distorted and lost. Here's another example:

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." (Rev.20:1-3)

In the scripture above, we can tell right away that it does not read like the previous parable. Secondly, the scripture mentions the real person of Satan as the dragon, as well as the literal location of the Abyss, which is used in other scriptures demonstrating that the Abyss is not symbolic for something else. We also have the scripture stating that Satan will be bound for a thousand years, which is consistent with the same amount of time that Jesus reigns on the earth. The scripture also states that Satan must be released for a short time at the end of the thousand years, which is confirmed in verse 7 which says, "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison, as well as what he proceeds to do once he is released. There is no reason to not believe what the scripture is stating here. Here's another one:

"Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns."


Does the above read like it is literal or symbolic? Common sense should tell the reader that there is symbolism here, else they would be believing in a literal beast being ridden by a woman with seven heads and ten horns. In this case, the symbolism, which is the dragon itself, the woman, the seven heads and the ten horns are all revealed right in the same chapter.


* Dragon/beast = Satan

* Seven heads = seven hills upon which the woman sites

* The seven heads also symbolic representing a succession of seven kings

* The ten horns represent ten kings who rule concurrently with the beast

* The woman = that great city that rules over the kings of the earth

Above is symbolism representing what is literal

"a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head"

Symbolism or literal? To find out the answer, go and read Gen.37:9-10

I have to go sleep now, but we can continue this later if you would like.

See you on the forum tomorrow. Have a good night!

 

[kedge]

we can continue this later if you would like.

There is nothing to continue here, as I suspected all along and the evidence is very clear to see by anyone who can see, that people just interpret the Bible as they see fit, it is one persons opinion over anothers, many Christians claim they have the Spirit of God and yet what do we see? a difference of opinion or interpreation of the Holy Scriptures, how can different Christians who claim to have Holy Spirit from God have a different interpretation of the Bible if there is supposed to be only One Holy Spirit? it is clear to see the division in Christianity. Of course I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion or interpretation of the Holy Bible, but how convoluted is that.


cya