Hell. It is in the Bible isnt it?
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All of them are saved.
God is the God of the living not the dead.
You are saved through belief in Him, not works.
Ezekiel 18:20 [SUP]20 [/SUP]The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
It's pretty clear. Souls are not eternal.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 6Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
What does Solomon mean here? God's breath made man a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
But what about Jesus???
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus is clear that the soul can be destroyed, which is the 2nd death.
Which of these Scriptures do not agree with?
C.
God is the God of the living not the dead.
You are saved through belief in Him, not works.
Ezekiel 18:20 [SUP]20 [/SUP]The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
It's pretty clear. Souls are not eternal.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 6Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
What does Solomon mean here? God's breath made man a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
But what about Jesus???
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus is clear that the soul can be destroyed, which is the 2nd death.
Which of these Scriptures do not agree with?
C.
Ahah! Cooled yourself a bit of that excess heat from that [black & white] eternal-torment doctrine I suppose? 
So, as the scripture says, Romans 2:6
"God will repay each person according to what they have done.”
You still haven't addressed how those world of people who did not hear about the kingdom of God in any form are supposed to get saved? Romans 2:6 applies in this case also.
He claims to be the God of Love, Truth, Hope, eternal Life and sustenance. His word is not wrong about eternal punishment, but it is what you believe about eternal punishment and how it will manifest is skewed IMO. Likewise you can say the same thing about me.
We have to agree to disagree as neither of us are interested in getting into each other boats
So, as the scripture says, Romans 2:6
"God will repay each person according to what they have done.”
You still haven't addressed how those world of people who did not hear about the kingdom of God in any form are supposed to get saved? Romans 2:6 applies in this case also.
He claims to be the God of Love, Truth, Hope, eternal Life and sustenance. His word is not wrong about eternal punishment, but it is what you believe about eternal punishment and how it will manifest is skewed IMO. Likewise you can say the same thing about me.
We have to agree to disagree as neither of us are interested in getting into each other boats
That Parable was given to Pharisees, but even if it was to the disciples they said the following before He was crucified...
Jesus to disciples: John 16:25 25“I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.
Disciples to Jesus: 29His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech! 30Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God.”
Showing that Jesus spoke to them in parables as well. But regardless, that Parable was given to the Pharisees the context is clear on this...
Luke 16:14The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him. 15And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Luke 16:19“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores...
And to the Pharisees he only spoke in Parables.... It was privately that Jesus answered his disciples questions about them, but there is no record in Scripture of this for this particular parable.
C.
Jesus to disciples: John 16:25 25“I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.
Disciples to Jesus: 29His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech! 30Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God.”
Showing that Jesus spoke to them in parables as well. But regardless, that Parable was given to the Pharisees the context is clear on this...
Luke 16:14The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him. 15And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Luke 16:19“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores...
And to the Pharisees he only spoke in Parables.... It was privately that Jesus answered his disciples questions about them, but there is no record in Scripture of this for this particular parable.
C.
G
Acts 24:15~~New American Standard Bible
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
1 Cor 15:54~~New American Standard Bible
But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
Rev 20:14~~New American Standard Bible
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
THEN~~
Rev 20:15~~New American Standard Bible
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Hos 13:14~~New American Standard Bible
Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from death? O Death, where are your thorns? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion will be hidden from My sight.
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
1 Cor 15:54~~New American Standard Bible
But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
Rev 20:14~~New American Standard Bible
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
THEN~~
Rev 20:15~~New American Standard Bible
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Hos 13:14~~New American Standard Bible
Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from death? O Death, where are your thorns? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion will be hidden from My sight.
Okay, then are you willing to learn?:
Romans 1:18-22 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made,
even His eternal power and Godhead,
so that they are without excuse,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Colossians 1:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
Mark 3:28-29 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—
The primary function of the Holy Spirit within the Godhead, is to work on the hearts of human beings to bring us to BELIEVE in the Creator, Jesus Christ. One does not have to KNOW IS NAME, but one certainly has to personally KNOW THE CREATOR. TO REJECT WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TRYING TO GET ONE TO BELIEVE, IS BLASPHEMING THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THEREFORE IS THAT ETERNAL SIN.
Old Testament Saints have the same faith as we have.
Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.
Old Testament Saints BELIEVED the Creator would send a Messiah.
New Testament Saints BELIEVED the Creator did send a Messiah.
IT IS THE SAME FAITH, TWO FOLDS, ONE FLOCK, WITH ONE SHEPHERD.
John 10:14-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
REMEMBER He has not yet died, and the beginning of the CHURCH is considered the Day of Pentecost. He is talking to Old Testament Saints that BELIEVE He is the Messiah that the Creator has sent. He revealed to His followers that HE IS THE CREATOR via the Feeding of the 5000 and the Feeding of the 4000. THEREFORE the CHURCH is the "other sheep that are not of this fold."
Romans 1:18-22 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made,
even His eternal power and Godhead,
so that they are without excuse,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Colossians 1:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
Mark 3:28-29 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—
The primary function of the Holy Spirit within the Godhead, is to work on the hearts of human beings to bring us to BELIEVE in the Creator, Jesus Christ. One does not have to KNOW IS NAME, but one certainly has to personally KNOW THE CREATOR. TO REJECT WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TRYING TO GET ONE TO BELIEVE, IS BLASPHEMING THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THEREFORE IS THAT ETERNAL SIN.
Old Testament Saints have the same faith as we have.
Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.
Old Testament Saints BELIEVED the Creator would send a Messiah.
New Testament Saints BELIEVED the Creator did send a Messiah.
IT IS THE SAME FAITH, TWO FOLDS, ONE FLOCK, WITH ONE SHEPHERD.
John 10:14-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
REMEMBER He has not yet died, and the beginning of the CHURCH is considered the Day of Pentecost. He is talking to Old Testament Saints that BELIEVE He is the Messiah that the Creator has sent. He revealed to His followers that HE IS THE CREATOR via the Feeding of the 5000 and the Feeding of the 4000. THEREFORE the CHURCH is the "other sheep that are not of this fold."
Hello Mitspa,
Right on! That's what I have been contending for as well. The problem lies with people taking these words and attaching their own meanings to them. I mean, just the words "everlasting fire" should be enough to convey that it does not refer to extinction. Though the fire is "everlasting" the emphasis is on those who are in it. If all of the unrighteous just got burnt up (annihilated) upon hitting the flames, there would be no need for eternal fire after the last person was thrown in. Eternal, everlasting, on-going, conscious existence in the lake of fire is what is clearly taught. It's a matter of the truth and accuracy of God's word.
Right on! That's what I have been contending for as well. The problem lies with people taking these words and attaching their own meanings to them. I mean, just the words "everlasting fire" should be enough to convey that it does not refer to extinction. Though the fire is "everlasting" the emphasis is on those who are in it. If all of the unrighteous just got burnt up (annihilated) upon hitting the flames, there would be no need for eternal fire after the last person was thrown in. Eternal, everlasting, on-going, conscious existence in the lake of fire is what is clearly taught. It's a matter of the truth and accuracy of God's word.
Would that be everlasting death though? death is nothingness, no activity, no thought, nada, zilch, absolutely nothing, the human being has perished and turned into dust, even secularists are aware of this. Some say there is no real proof that God put a soul inside of adams physical body. Humans are not superior over animals and all go to the same place at death, and king david never ascended to heaven, at least that is what the Bible writers claim.
So, people agree that hell is in the Bible but people disagree on the interpretation of hell and what happens in hell, that's what I observe anyway.
So, people agree that hell is in the Bible but people disagree on the interpretation of hell and what happens in hell, that's what I observe anyway.
Morning John,
With all humility, this is why you don't understand what death is. Taking into consideration all of the related scriptures which demonstrate conscious existence of the soul/spirit after the body stops functioning, death of the soul/spirit is a state of existence. When God told Adam that in the day you eat of it you shall surely die, He was speaking about his physical body as well as being in a state of separation from God, unreconciliation. Adam and Eve's sin separated them from a right relationship with God, which would result in death of both the body and soul/spirit.
Regarding death and taking into consideration all of the scripture that demonstrates existence of the soul/spirit after the death of the body, combined with the above, we can come to the conclusion that death is not defined as non-existence, but a state of existence in relation to our standing with God. Both life and death are states of conscious existence, one being in a reconciled state with God and the other being in a separated state from God, with neither state having anything to do with non-existence.
Everyone who comes into the world, their soul/spirit exists forever. Death is determined by ones standing with God. If one dies in their sins, then their existence will be in a state of death which is separation from God and eternal punishment in the lake of fire, conscious and aware. This is for one, what the event of the rich man and Lazarus is revealing. We have two men who are said to have died, but their souls/spirits are found somewhere else. They can see, hear, feel and reason. Lazarus was in a place of comfort (paradise) and the rich man was in torment in flame. The rich man's standing with God was death, because he had not been reconciled to him through faith. The rich man is still there as I write this and will be resurrected out to stand at the great white throne and be judged and then will be cast into the lake of fire existing in eternal punishment from the presence of God. That is the state of death, not non-existence/annihilation.
According to scripture, what you have claimed above is not true:
"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
The above scripture would demonstrate that mankind was made in God's image, after His likeness, which by the way, is good apologetic against evolution, for since mankind was created in God's image, after His likeness, that would rule out mankind crawling out of a primordial pool and evolving or being on the same level as animals.
They disagree on it because, those opposed to the idea get rid of the scriptures that support this truth and then claim that there is no scripture proof. An example of this would be interpreting the rich man and Lazarus as a parable and that because it demonstrates conscious awareness of the soul/spirit after death and one who is being punished by fire. You can't go by what other people say. You can listen to what they say and then do your own unbiased studies.
With all humility, this is why you don't understand what death is. Taking into consideration all of the related scriptures which demonstrate conscious existence of the soul/spirit after the body stops functioning, death of the soul/spirit is a state of existence. When God told Adam that in the day you eat of it you shall surely die, He was speaking about his physical body as well as being in a state of separation from God, unreconciliation. Adam and Eve's sin separated them from a right relationship with God, which would result in death of both the body and soul/spirit.
Regarding death and taking into consideration all of the scripture that demonstrates existence of the soul/spirit after the death of the body, combined with the above, we can come to the conclusion that death is not defined as non-existence, but a state of existence in relation to our standing with God. Both life and death are states of conscious existence, one being in a reconciled state with God and the other being in a separated state from God, with neither state having anything to do with non-existence.
Everyone who comes into the world, their soul/spirit exists forever. Death is determined by ones standing with God. If one dies in their sins, then their existence will be in a state of death which is separation from God and eternal punishment in the lake of fire, conscious and aware. This is for one, what the event of the rich man and Lazarus is revealing. We have two men who are said to have died, but their souls/spirits are found somewhere else. They can see, hear, feel and reason. Lazarus was in a place of comfort (paradise) and the rich man was in torment in flame. The rich man's standing with God was death, because he had not been reconciled to him through faith. The rich man is still there as I write this and will be resurrected out to stand at the great white throne and be judged and then will be cast into the lake of fire existing in eternal punishment from the presence of God. That is the state of death, not non-existence/annihilation.
According to scripture, what you have claimed above is not true:
"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
The above scripture would demonstrate that mankind was made in God's image, after His likeness, which by the way, is good apologetic against evolution, for since mankind was created in God's image, after His likeness, that would rule out mankind crawling out of a primordial pool and evolving or being on the same level as animals.
They disagree on it because, those opposed to the idea get rid of the scriptures that support this truth and then claim that there is no scripture proof. An example of this would be interpreting the rich man and Lazarus as a parable and that because it demonstrates conscious awareness of the soul/spirit after death and one who is being punished by fire. You can't go by what other people say. You can listen to what they say and then do your own unbiased studies.
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Sir, you are much older than me in your faith. I do not mean to be rude but did you read what I said?
Ok. I will state it again for you.
Before Christ (NT) physically came to earth to die for the sins of mankind, there were Israelites (OT), and many other nations like Africa, India and China with many people populated in those lands [gentiles]
Do you believe that the Israelites in the OT were travelling all around the world preaching the salvation of God and that of the coming Christ? And how do you expect those people who have not heard anything about Christ to attain salvation? Or ALLLLL of them going to be tortured for all eternity?
Ok. I will state it again for you.
Before Christ (NT) physically came to earth to die for the sins of mankind, there were Israelites (OT), and many other nations like Africa, India and China with many people populated in those lands [gentiles]
Do you believe that the Israelites in the OT were travelling all around the world preaching the salvation of God and that of the coming Christ? And how do you expect those people who have not heard anything about Christ to attain salvation? Or ALLLLL of them going to be tortured for all eternity?
Hello organicbeast,
The problem is that, you are insinuating that people are entitled to salvation, they are not. No one is, not even those who believe in Christ. It's a free gift and God is the One doing the saving. Point being, if God didn't want to save any of those people that you mention, He would not be unfair, because as I said, no one is entitled to salvation. By your post you act as though God owes them something, as though God is required to offer salvation to them. To be clear, if God didn't want to save a single person on the earth, he would not be in the wrong for not doing so because again, everyone is a sinner and no one is entitled to salvation. And regarding people being tortured, yes, and that because of sin.
The problem is that, you are insinuating that people are entitled to salvation, they are not. No one is, not even those who believe in Christ. It's a free gift and God is the One doing the saving. Point being, if God didn't want to save any of those people that you mention, He would not be unfair, because as I said, no one is entitled to salvation. By your post you act as though God owes them something, as though God is required to offer salvation to them. To be clear, if God didn't want to save a single person on the earth, he would not be in the wrong for not doing so because again, everyone is a sinner and no one is entitled to salvation. And regarding people being tortured, yes, and that because of sin.
What does it matter if a person spends Eternity in the Lake of Fire or is destroyed by God and ceases to exist?
I believe the reason many want to believe Hell ceases to exist is because they do know that they will be tossed into Hell and they are trying to ease their consciences of the fact of Eternal pain.
We do have among us those who do know Jesus but have never accepted Jesus. Its these who want to believe there is no Eternal punishment for their rejection of Jesus.
I believe the reason many want to believe Hell ceases to exist is because they do know that they will be tossed into Hell and they are trying to ease their consciences of the fact of Eternal pain.
We do have among us those who do know Jesus but have never accepted Jesus. Its these who want to believe there is no Eternal punishment for their rejection of Jesus.