Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional?

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Nov 22, 2015
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So you repented of your earlier beliefs that all have wilfully sinned?->>>>>





By the way, it is not slander when you have proof persons like yourself have said as much in the past. :)

In context...I said that all sin is wilful because we know what we are doing it when we sin but that was in contrast because we are talking about Hebrews 10 in that post.

I said that if someone wilfully sins (without looking at the context of Hebrews 10 )...then we would all be in trouble as all sin is wilful...but that is not "the wilful sin " of Hebrews 10:26

Those posts from January 4th you have up show the context.

The wilful sin talked about in Hebrews 10:26 in that context was about "the" "willful" sin which is the rejecting of the Jews of the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins and relying instead of the temple sacrifices ( not sin like someone stealing or whatever ) ....context is so important.

So, I still believe that anyone who rejects Christ for their salvation is wilfully sinning and that there remains no more sacrifice for sin and therefor there remains a terrifying expectation of judgment for these people like Heb 10:26-17 says.

 
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eternally-gratefull

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Now CS1, Please read what the people he claims to believe in hypergrace actually say, And see for yourself that we do not teach what he says we teach, Is is to busy trying to classify people under groups, (ie gnostics.hypergrace). that he can see what they actually believe
 
Sep 4, 2012
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And it also would not be by grace through faith, but based on the merits of our performance, which it certainly is not. Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door. ;)
But those who try to climb up some other way into the sheepfold are denied entry.
 
Feb 11, 2016
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So you repented of your earlier beliefs that all have wilfully sinned?->>>>>





By the way, it is not slander when you have proof persons like yourself have said as much in the past. :)
This one with HRFTD also,



Gal 5:19-21 Is speaking of living after the flesh where Paul states to the contrary Paul saying, I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Believers in Christ are called sheep...there are sheep and there are goats...we don't turn into a goat if a sheep sins...then if the goat ( that was a sheep before ) doesn't do a sin - it turns back into a sheep again..and there are no "shoats".
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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In context...I said that all sin is wilful because we know what we are doing it when we sin but that was in contrast because we are talking about Hebrews 10 in that post. I said that if someone wilfully sins (without looking at the context of Hebrews 10 )...then we would all be in trouble as all sin is wilful...but that is not the sin of Hebrews 10:26

Those posts from January 4th you have up show the context.

The wilful sin talked about in Hebrews 10:26 in that context was about "the" "willful" sin which is the rejecting of the Jews of the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins and relying instead of the temple sacrifices ( not sin like someone stealing or whatever ) ....context is so important.

So, I still believe that anyone who rejects Christ for their salvation is wilfully sinning and that there remains no more sacrifice for sin and therefor there remains a terrifying expectation of judgment for these people like Heb 10:26-17 says.
Amen! In Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
This one with HRFTD also,



Gal 5:19-21 Is speaking of living after the flesh where Paul states to the contrary Paul saying, I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

does anyone know how to quote anymore?

You addition does not have grace saying willful sin.. So why did you bother?

The slander machine is on overdrive today!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Amen! In Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).
Amen, As John says, a child born of God can not sin (habitually) because God is in them..
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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But those who try to climb up some other way into the sheepfold are denied entry.
In John 10:9, Jesus said - I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. ALL other ways are some other way.
 
Feb 11, 2016
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Prince is hyper grace. He is the quintessential hyper grace teacher.
Thanks, I never looked it up before, I still havent really except for posting a google search of it.

I dont know this Prince fella, he might be someone elses teacher he is not mine.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Gal 5:19-21 Is speaking of living after the flesh where Paul states to the contrary Paul saying, I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

No one says to go out and sin all you want...grace says the exact opposite...but we have said this over 100x times now.


The inner man created in Christ cannot sin as John shows us. Cannot sin once..let alone a thousand times. If we don't understand the new creation in Christ and that the flesh is separated from the inner man in Christ by the circumcision of the Spirit - we will err in a lot of the New Covenant truths.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. ( He who keeps us is Jesus in our inner man - the new creation in Christ )

Galatians 5:21: Having listed all these “works of the flesh” (Galatians 5:19), Paul pointed out that people who practice these things will not enter the kingdom of God.

These are characteristics of unsaved people. However, Christians can commit these acts also. Does this mean that any Christian who is guilty of something listed here has lost his or her salvation? Definitely not!

The phrase “shall not inherit the kingdom of God” may be rendered as “‘will not enjoy having God rule over them’ or ‘will never have the joy of God ruling them’” (UBS Handbook, p. 139).

We will not inherit the benefits of the kingdom on God while on this earth. People are taking inherit the kingdom as going to heaven only.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Amen, As John says, a child born of God can not sin (habitually) because God is in them..
Amen!

Galatians 5:19 - Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who PRACTICE such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God PRACTICES sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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In John 10:9, Jesus said - I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. ALL other ways are some other way.
Belief without obedience would be some other way.
 

Dan58

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Nov 13, 2013
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Its conditional... If it weren't, we could dispense with this walk in the flesh.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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Belief without obedience would be some other way.
If you mean faith without obedience, there is no such thing. James calls it dead, meaning it is no faith at all.

A person can not be saved apart from faith.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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does anyone know how to quote anymore?

You addition does not have grace saying willful sin.. So why did you bother?

The slander machine is on overdrive today!
I think what may be happening is that they see someone say that sin does not affect a true believers eternal security and so they equate that with telling people "Go ahead and sin all you want" ( which of course grace believers are saying the exact opposite of that )

Paul was accused of the very same things and frankly if no one accuses you of saying that - then you have not preached the gospel that Paul preached. So, I take the accusations as a good sign!..All is well!

 

Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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“Anything goes” antinomianism could be also expressed as libertine antinomianism if one is speaking of the variety that says the Christian cannot really sin regardless of what they do. This was common among some of the Gnostics.

The kind of Antinomianism we see more of in our day (beginning with the “Free Grace” movement of Zane Hodges et al. and morphing just a bit in the newer form as seen in teachers such as Joseph Prince) is essentially Sandemanian Antinomianism (a heresy associated with an eighteenth century movement) rather than libertine Antinomianism.

Sandemanianism did not directly say that anything goes in the sense that anything was approved of but just said that everyone was OK who gave mental assent to the gospel. Thus, those who made a profession could live as they pleased even though the leaders did not necessarily endorse this behavior. It is still “anything goes” as regards salvation even if the teachers and leaders profess not to endorse sin.

Joseph Prince has embraced this by espousing unconditional security without the need for the perseverance of the saints. This semi-Calvinist view is an unorthodox one that gives comfort to those who have never evidenced a changed life (Prince even asserts that repentance does not involve a turning from sin). I have spoken to a homosexual follower of Prince who acknowledged what the Bible said about his lifestyle. He was not concerned, however, because he was sure God saw it as no big deal in spite of what the Bible said.

One of the chief characteristics of the new Antinomianism as it has developed in the 21st century is that it insists that we must never speak of do’s and don’ts and can never use words such as “should” or “ought.” All of life must be subjective spontaneity and those who offer any word of exhortation (such as those found in the NT) are presenting a “legalistic ministration of death.”


Relativism and Antinomianism: It's Mostly About Sex | Apologetics Index

I do often wonder where some people get their information, so thanks for posting this link.

I can't abide Joseph Prince, or other Word Faith teachers, so does that make me ok in the eyes of whoever wrote this? I got my information on soteriology first from the Bible. Then, in seminary, in theology, we learned about all the different kinds of soteriology.

Yes, that is right- all the kinds. Because there are more than just Armininans and Calvinists. In fact, there are those who believe in eternal security, who definitely preach sin, and believe that Jesus died for their sin. Just like the Bible says!

And for me personally, I am always aware of the New Testament sin lists. I have sinned since I was saved, but God also showed me my sin, which meant I was required to repent. As many times as it took. And I am sure I will keep on sinning, till Jesus appears, or I die.

So that is the big difference between me and an Arminian. I believe that the only way to overcome sin, is to walk with Jesus. And the Holy Spirit leads and guides us into repentance. Otherwise, what would be the point of the Holy Spirit being in our hearts, and writing the law on our hearts? If we could become sinless of our own accord, the Holy Spirit could just touch us briefly and then be gone.

Instead, the promise of the Holy Spirit is for our entire lives. And for me, that is a very good thing. Just like I couldn't save myself, I cannot sancitify myself.

I have said this over and over - please do not confuse justification with sanctification. Justification starts our journey with Christ, sanctification continues our journey with Christ and glorification is reserved for when we return.

It seems like people here in this thread do not understand that our entire walk with Christ is our sanctification. We are justified by God. (See Romans 5:1 and the word "justify" in the Aorist passive.) Then the same God sanctifies us!

But then, I have written about this over and over, and some people still don't get what I have written. But then, some people have me on ignore, so they are not able to read what I have written.

It's a strange thing to me. I was contemplating how so many have others on ignore for what they believe. They continue to argue in thread after thread, but they are not reading, discussing, refuting what those on ignore have said. I guess that is a mystery to me!

Feel free to explain how you can properly discuss when you have half the forum on ignore. (I'm hoping someone is reading this and can give the message to their friends.)
 
Sep 4, 2012
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I think what may be happening is that they see someone say that sin does not affect a true believers eternal security and so they equate that with telling people "Go ahead and sin all you want" ( which of course grace believers are saying the exact opposite of that )

Paul was accused of the very same things and frankly if no one accuses you of saying that - then you have not preached the gospel that Paul preached. So, I take the accusations as a good sign!..All is well!

Here. Let me repost this because it is highly relevant, and some folks may have missed it. Essentially, saying behavior doesn't matter to salvation is in effect the same thing as saying do whatever you want.

The kind of Antinomianism we see more of in our day (beginning with the “Free Grace” movement of Zane Hodges et al. and morphing just a bit in the newer form as seen in teachers such as Joseph Prince) is essentially Sandemanian Antinomianism (a heresy associated with an eighteenth century movement) rather than libertine Antinomianism.

Sandemanianism did not directly say that anything goes in the sense that anything was approved of but just said that everyone was OK who gave mental assent to the gospel. Thus, those who made a profession could live as they pleased even though the leaders did not necessarily endorse this behavior. It is still “anything goes” as regards salvation even if the teachers and leaders profess not to endorse sin.

Joseph Prince has embraced this by espousing unconditional security without the need for the perseverance of the saints. This semi-Calvinist view is an unorthodox one that gives comfort to those who have never evidenced a changed life (Prince even asserts that repentance does not involve a turning from sin). I have spoken to a homosexual follower of Prince who acknowledged what the Bible said about his lifestyle. He was not concerned, however, because he was sure God saw it as no big deal in spite of what the Bible said.

One of the chief characteristics of the new Antinomianism as it has developed in the 21st century is that it insists that we must never speak of do’s and don’ts and can never use words such as “should” or “ought.” All of life must be subjective spontaneity and those who offer any word of exhortation (such as those found in the NT) are presenting a “legalistic ministration of death.”
 
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