Verse for "once saved always saved"?
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This is a very good verse: What is says clearly is that his "saints are preserved forever".
Can I call a person who forsakes God, curses God, and hates God a "saint"? Or will a believer (saint) never do such a thing? What does "preserved forever" mean? Does it mean I will be preserved so I go to heaven? Does it mean I will be preserved from backsliding (so that it is impossible to forsake God - that is - I have no free will anymore)? Does it mean I will be preserved from God "forsaking me"? Does the phrase "God does not forsake His saints" mean that (if I forsake God) God will keep me "saved and going to heaven"? or does it mean that even if backslide that God will not give up on me, and will try to woo me back to himself?
A powerful verse and one that makes me ask questions I don't have all the answers for: but I don't see that by itself aside from other Scriptures that it says clearly "once saved always saved".
Can I call a person who forsakes God, curses God, and hates God a "saint"? Or will a believer (saint) never do such a thing? What does "preserved forever" mean? Does it mean I will be preserved so I go to heaven? Does it mean I will be preserved from backsliding (so that it is impossible to forsake God - that is - I have no free will anymore)? Does it mean I will be preserved from God "forsaking me"? Does the phrase "God does not forsake His saints" mean that (if I forsake God) God will keep me "saved and going to heaven"? or does it mean that even if backslide that God will not give up on me, and will try to woo me back to himself?
A powerful verse and one that makes me ask questions I don't have all the answers for: but I don't see that by itself aside from other Scriptures that it says clearly "once saved always saved".
E
You can call that person an antichrist.
And john gives you the answer.
1 John 2:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[SUP][c][/SUP] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
So you can call them never of us (never been saved)
You can not lose what you never had.
And john gives you the answer.
1 John 2:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[SUP][c][/SUP] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
So you can call them never of us (never been saved)
You can not lose what you never had.
Yes and scripture says to be in Jesus Christ one has to live as he lived. Jesus always obeyed his Father in Heaven, and never sinned. If one sins he or she is not in Jesus but are in the devil
(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God. In this way we distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil: anybody not living a holy life and not loving his brother is no child of God’s.”
(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God. In this way we distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil: anybody not living a holy life and not loving his brother is no child of God’s.”
aye right. reading the meaning to scripture mite help.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men Romans 5
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Romans 5: Peace with God Through Faith
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men Romans 5
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Romans 5: Peace with God Through Faith
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Reply to crossnote's comment #205
Ah! I like your honesty! Well said!
And as such: all of us as believers need to study Scriptures diligently and with the aid of the Spirit endeavor to rightly divide the Word.
If those who believe in ES and those who do not believe in ES both hold what they believe is truth with a closed fist and do not listen to reason or questions, then of course we will not agree.
If those who believe in ES and those who do not believe in ES both hold what they believe with an open hand (saying this is what I believe Scripture teaches, but I am open to correction if you can show me otherwise), then we can discuss and question openly and honestly and try to together come to Biblical truth.
It seems to me that some on this forum (on both sides of the issue) are approaching this issue with very "clenched fists".
Ah! I like your honesty! Well said!
And as such: all of us as believers need to study Scriptures diligently and with the aid of the Spirit endeavor to rightly divide the Word.
If those who believe in ES and those who do not believe in ES both hold what they believe is truth with a closed fist and do not listen to reason or questions, then of course we will not agree.
If those who believe in ES and those who do not believe in ES both hold what they believe with an open hand (saying this is what I believe Scripture teaches, but I am open to correction if you can show me otherwise), then we can discuss and question openly and honestly and try to together come to Biblical truth.
It seems to me that some on this forum (on both sides of the issue) are approaching this issue with very "clenched fists".
They are preserved forever, from the dominion and damning power of sin, from being devoured by Satan, from a total and final falling away, and from being hurt of the second death. They are preserved in Christ (Jude 1:1), in whose hands they are; and by the power of God, safe to his kingdom and glory. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
A believer who forsakes God, curses God, and hates God is an oxymoron.
1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1 John 4:20 - If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
1 John 5:1 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
In regards to backsliding: Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
A believer who forsakes God, curses God, and hates God is an oxymoron.
1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1 John 4:20 - If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
1 John 5:1 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
In regards to backsliding: Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
Hello,
Sure...you could say from God's point of view, God knows everyone who will be saved or lost, from the beginning.
Nevertheless, from our human perspective, we don't have that omniscient vantage point.
So, Eze. 18 appears to deny us the ability (in general) to claim that any particular individual (here on earth) has eternal security (from the human perspective), since we generally have no guarantee that a particular presently-apparently-saved individual will not begin doing evil works in the future.
best...
BibleGuy
Sure...you could say from God's point of view, God knows everyone who will be saved or lost, from the beginning.
Nevertheless, from our human perspective, we don't have that omniscient vantage point.
So, Eze. 18 appears to deny us the ability (in general) to claim that any particular individual (here on earth) has eternal security (from the human perspective), since we generally have no guarantee that a particular presently-apparently-saved individual will not begin doing evil works in the future.
best...
BibleGuy
Thank you BibleGuy. As you said in your earlier post the passage of Ezekiel is a definitive proof of No to Eternal Security or “once saved always saved”. Since this is the passage you referred to, let me also draw your attention in this passage alone. If it’s ok with you that we will not go beyond the 4 corners of this passage you brought out as your proof. A simple Navigators way of Bible study method will be used in order for us not to get astray on what the passage is all about. Let’s see first…
The Passage:
Ezekiel 18:24-26King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
The Message:
The question is who are these righteous according to Prophet Ezekiel? The righteous is the one who is not committing iniquity and is not doing the abomination like the wicked man does. His righteousness is based in accordance to the Old Covenant of Law by Moses. The wicked man is the opposite of the righteous who are living in trespasses and sins. Ultimately, what the Prophet is all talking about on the passage is all about those Israelites and not the Gentiles hence verse 25 says the Prophet says “hear now, O Israel”. Any descendants of Israel (physical) and during that time were warned to consider their ways, righteous that turns away from his righteousness together with the wicked shall die. It will be a death by means of stoning and other method which is according to TORAH –Law.
Conclusion:
So, the passage has nothing to do with eternal security (spiritual) at all. The passage also does not concern me at all as Christian because I am not a part of the “house of Israel” whom Prophet Ezekiel referred to. Well, we all might be concerned with our physical safety and soundness yet we are not talking about it. It is the spiritual one.
YHVH bless you.
The Passage:
Ezekiel 18:24-26King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
The Message:
The question is who are these righteous according to Prophet Ezekiel? The righteous is the one who is not committing iniquity and is not doing the abomination like the wicked man does. His righteousness is based in accordance to the Old Covenant of Law by Moses. The wicked man is the opposite of the righteous who are living in trespasses and sins. Ultimately, what the Prophet is all talking about on the passage is all about those Israelites and not the Gentiles hence verse 25 says the Prophet says “hear now, O Israel”. Any descendants of Israel (physical) and during that time were warned to consider their ways, righteous that turns away from his righteousness together with the wicked shall die. It will be a death by means of stoning and other method which is according to TORAH –Law.
Conclusion:
So, the passage has nothing to do with eternal security (spiritual) at all. The passage also does not concern me at all as Christian because I am not a part of the “house of Israel” whom Prophet Ezekiel referred to. Well, we all might be concerned with our physical safety and soundness yet we are not talking about it. It is the spiritual one.
YHVH bless you.
hERE IS COPY AND PASTE ABOUT oLD AND nEW COV if anyone wish study the difference but Grace777 had already provided some insights...
32 differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant
The 32 differences are;
1. The old covenant came by Moses while the new covenant came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17)
2. The old covenant leads to death (kills) while the new covenant gives life (2 Cor 3:6)
3. The old covenant was ended by Jesus Christ (Roman 10:4) while the new covenant was established by Jesus Christ (Heb 8:6)
4. The old covenant enslaves (Gal 5:1)while the new covenant makes man free (gives freedom) (John 8:32. 36)
5. The old covenant leaves man imperfect while the new covenant leaves man perfect (Heb 7:19)
6. The old covenant exposes sin (Gal 3:19) while the new covenant covers sin (Rom. 4:1-8)
7. The old covenant cannot give life (2 cor 3.7) while the new covenant gives life (Gal. 3:11, 6:8)
8. The old covenant was abolished while the new covenant is in force (Eph:2:15)
9. The old covenant brings a curse (Gal. 3:10) while the new covenant redeems from curse (Gal. 3:13)
10. In the old covenant, living is by works while in the new covenant living is by faith (Gal. 3:10-11)
11. The old covenant is a shadow (Col. 2:14-17) while the new covenant is the reality (Heb. 10:1-18)
12. The old covenant is a covered glory while the new covenant is glory uncovered (2 Cor. 3:13)
13. The old covenant had many high priests (Heb. 7:23) while the new covenant has only one high priest (Jesus Christ) (Heb. 7:24-28)
14. The old covenant had earthly priest (Heb. 5:1-4) while the new covenant has heavenly priest (Heb. 9:24, 10:12)
15. The old covenant makes priest by law while the new covenant makes priests by oath (Heb 7:12,28)
16. The old covenant had earthly tabernacle (Heb. 9:2) while the new covenant has heavenly tabernacle (Heb. 8:2)
17. In The old covenant priesthood was in the lineage of Aaron (Aaron priest hood) while the new covenant priesthood is in the melchisedec lineage (melchisedec priesthood) (Heb 7:11,21)
18. In the old covenant priests (high priest) were sinners (Heb. 5:1-4) while in the new covenant the priest has no sin (Jesus Christ) (Heb. 7:26)
19. The old covenant was fulfilled (Mat. 5:17-18) while the new covenant is now in force (Heb. 8:6, 10:9)
20. In the old, the law was written in stone tablets while in the new covenant, the law is written in people hearts (Jeremiah 31:33)
21. In the old, the Ark of covenant was present as a sign of salvation while in the new covenant salvation is by grace through faith
22. The old covenant demanded works (doing) while the new covenant only demands obedience
23. In the old, Moses and prophets were mediators while in the new covenant, Jesus Christ is the mediator
24. The old covenant is a covenant of letter while the new covenant is a covenant of spirit
25. The old covenant needed offering for sin while in the new covenant, Jesus is the perfect sin offering
26. The old covenant needed statues and ordinances while the new covenant only needs ones heart
27. In the old covenant, the tabernacle was made with hands while in the new covenant the tabernacle is made without hands
28. In the old covenant, remembrance of sin was done yearly while in the new covenant, forgiveness and washing away of sin was done once and for all
29. The old covenant remembers sin (Heb. 10:3) while the new covenant does not remember sin(Heb. 8:12, 10:17)
30. The old covenant is a ministry of death while the new covenant is a ministry of life (2 Cor 3:6-7)
31. The old covenant was written with ink while the new covenant is written with the spirit of God (2 Cor 3:3)
32. The old covenant is for Israelites only (Det 4: 7-8) while the new covenant is for all men (Luke 22:20)
All glory to the author of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.
God bless
32 Differences Between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant
32 differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant
The 32 differences are;
1. The old covenant came by Moses while the new covenant came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17)
2. The old covenant leads to death (kills) while the new covenant gives life (2 Cor 3:6)
3. The old covenant was ended by Jesus Christ (Roman 10:4) while the new covenant was established by Jesus Christ (Heb 8:6)
4. The old covenant enslaves (Gal 5:1)while the new covenant makes man free (gives freedom) (John 8:32. 36)
5. The old covenant leaves man imperfect while the new covenant leaves man perfect (Heb 7:19)
6. The old covenant exposes sin (Gal 3:19) while the new covenant covers sin (Rom. 4:1-8)
7. The old covenant cannot give life (2 cor 3.7) while the new covenant gives life (Gal. 3:11, 6:8)
8. The old covenant was abolished while the new covenant is in force (Eph:2:15)
9. The old covenant brings a curse (Gal. 3:10) while the new covenant redeems from curse (Gal. 3:13)
10. In the old covenant, living is by works while in the new covenant living is by faith (Gal. 3:10-11)
11. The old covenant is a shadow (Col. 2:14-17) while the new covenant is the reality (Heb. 10:1-18)
12. The old covenant is a covered glory while the new covenant is glory uncovered (2 Cor. 3:13)
13. The old covenant had many high priests (Heb. 7:23) while the new covenant has only one high priest (Jesus Christ) (Heb. 7:24-28)
14. The old covenant had earthly priest (Heb. 5:1-4) while the new covenant has heavenly priest (Heb. 9:24, 10:12)
15. The old covenant makes priest by law while the new covenant makes priests by oath (Heb 7:12,28)
16. The old covenant had earthly tabernacle (Heb. 9:2) while the new covenant has heavenly tabernacle (Heb. 8:2)
17. In The old covenant priesthood was in the lineage of Aaron (Aaron priest hood) while the new covenant priesthood is in the melchisedec lineage (melchisedec priesthood) (Heb 7:11,21)
18. In the old covenant priests (high priest) were sinners (Heb. 5:1-4) while in the new covenant the priest has no sin (Jesus Christ) (Heb. 7:26)
19. The old covenant was fulfilled (Mat. 5:17-18) while the new covenant is now in force (Heb. 8:6, 10:9)
20. In the old, the law was written in stone tablets while in the new covenant, the law is written in people hearts (Jeremiah 31:33)
21. In the old, the Ark of covenant was present as a sign of salvation while in the new covenant salvation is by grace through faith
22. The old covenant demanded works (doing) while the new covenant only demands obedience
23. In the old, Moses and prophets were mediators while in the new covenant, Jesus Christ is the mediator
24. The old covenant is a covenant of letter while the new covenant is a covenant of spirit
25. The old covenant needed offering for sin while in the new covenant, Jesus is the perfect sin offering
26. The old covenant needed statues and ordinances while the new covenant only needs ones heart
27. In the old covenant, the tabernacle was made with hands while in the new covenant the tabernacle is made without hands
28. In the old covenant, remembrance of sin was done yearly while in the new covenant, forgiveness and washing away of sin was done once and for all
29. The old covenant remembers sin (Heb. 10:3) while the new covenant does not remember sin(Heb. 8:12, 10:17)
30. The old covenant is a ministry of death while the new covenant is a ministry of life (2 Cor 3:6-7)
31. The old covenant was written with ink while the new covenant is written with the spirit of God (2 Cor 3:3)
32. The old covenant is for Israelites only (Det 4: 7-8) while the new covenant is for all men (Luke 22:20)
All glory to the author of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.
God bless
32 Differences Between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant
Well said! There is a massive difference between the Old Covenant which was based on man "doing " things in order to get God to do something - we now live in the New Covenant which is by grace through faith in what Christ has already done for us. Grace says "Jesus did all".
The Old Covenant is now obsolete for a good reason. Live in the new covenant where God's righteousness inside our new creation reigns - in Christ we are created in righteousness and holiness - Eph 4:24.
The Old Covenant is now obsolete for a good reason. Live in the new covenant where God's righteousness inside our new creation reigns - in Christ we are created in righteousness and holiness - Eph 4:24.
He is a pastor but travels all over the world to teach. He has some great quotes of wisdom.
for example : "sometimes you have to be willing to give up the right to understand if you want the peace that surpasses all understanding"
here is a link to some of his quotes.
https://escapetoreality.org/2011/09/02/top-12-bill-johnson-quotes-from-manifest-presence-2011/
for example : "sometimes you have to be willing to give up the right to understand if you want the peace that surpasses all understanding"
here is a link to some of his quotes.
https://escapetoreality.org/2011/09/02/top-12-bill-johnson-quotes-from-manifest-presence-2011/
Hello fredoheaven,
Thanks for writing.
You wrote: "...we will not go beyond the 4 corners of this passage..."
My response: Then you violated your own hermeneutics by citing: (1) Ezekiel, (2) Old Covenant, (3) Law, (4) Moses, (5) stoning. (none of these five terms is even stated in Eze. 18!)
Why do you restrict me to Ezekiel 18, yet you seem free to bring in MANY ideas from elsewhere throughout Scripture?
I'd say that's a pretty unfair way to avoid answering the issues I brought forth. Just saying!
So, I'll ask again:
Do you participate in the New Covenant?
If yes, then you MUST be an Israelite (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10).
If no, then you are NOT participating in the New Covenant.
Do you now see the power of this dilemma I've constructed for you?
And, since I choose to believe you are indeed a New Covenant participant, it follows that you are an Israelite (even though you apparently don't know it), and it then follows that you can not claim (on grounds that you are not an Israelite) that Eze. 18 doesn't apply to you.
Thus, Eze. 18 applies to you.
Now, you wrote: "Ultimately, what the Prophet is all talking about on the passage is all about those Israelites and not the Gentiles hence verse 25 says the Prophet says 'hear now, O Israel'."
My response: You apparently wrongly presume that "Israel" is merely defined in physical/genetic terms. This is wrong. Israel INCLUDED grafted-in believing Gentiles, even back in Ezekiel's day (and even before), and these Gentiles are also expected to obey the Law of Moses. For example, see Dt. 29:11-13; Dt. 31:12; Is. 56:6-8.
So, we've now exposed another incorrect assumption in your comments.
You wrote: "It will be a death by means of stoning and other method which is according to TORAH –Law."
My response: No. Not every person who sinned would be stoned. That's why Eze. 18:21-22 (for example) shows that sinners can be restored to life.
You wrote: "So, the passage has nothing to do with eternal security (spiritual) at all."
My response: No. Those who obey the law IN FAITH have eternal security. This truth did not suddenly become true only for those people who began participating in the New Covenant. It was true for Abraham, true for David, and its true for us too.
Remember! Law-obedience (apart from faith) does not save you.
BUT, saving faith NECESSARILY is accompanied by growth in obedience to law.
That's why Jesus can say that if you desire eternal life, then you must obey LAWS (e.g., Mt. 19:16-17), even though faith is also an obvious requirement as well.
Remember: Faith without works is dead (Jas. 2:17).
So should we obey Torah? or disobey Torah?
Obviously....obey!
That's how we LIVE (Mt. 4:4).
That's how we are SANCTIFIED (Jn. 17:17).
blessings to you...
Bibleguy
Yep..that's right..there are lot's of self-proclaimed heretic hunters on the internet. To them everyone is a heretic.
There are websites dedicated to the heretic Billy Graham. Billy Sunday, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Stanley, D.L. Moody, C.S. Lewis, John McArthur, Paul Washer, Joseph Prince, Bill Johnson, Martin Luther, John Calvin..etc..basically anyone who is known has a website dedicated to their "heresies"
There are even websites dedicated to the heretic apostle Paul because his epistles "conflict" with some of Jesus' words.
Basically these self-proclaimed heretic hunters have a beef about some thing with what someone else believes and so they are now "heretics". "If people don't believe the way that they do - they are heretics and they try to prove it with "their" version of what the scriptures say.."
It's the nature of the beast.
Where these types cross the line is when they turn a disagreement that they have with someone doctrinally on a secondary issue and turn it into "So and so is a heretic/satanist/controlled by a demon" type stuff.
There are websites dedicated to the heretic Billy Graham. Billy Sunday, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Stanley, D.L. Moody, C.S. Lewis, John McArthur, Paul Washer, Joseph Prince, Bill Johnson, Martin Luther, John Calvin..etc..basically anyone who is known has a website dedicated to their "heresies"
There are even websites dedicated to the heretic apostle Paul because his epistles "conflict" with some of Jesus' words.
Basically these self-proclaimed heretic hunters have a beef about some thing with what someone else believes and so they are now "heretics". "If people don't believe the way that they do - they are heretics and they try to prove it with "their" version of what the scriptures say.."
It's the nature of the beast.
Where these types cross the line is when they turn a disagreement that they have with someone doctrinally on a secondary issue and turn it into "So and so is a heretic/satanist/controlled by a demon" type stuff.
Hello, I'd like to respond to the "32 differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant", post #211 above.
Here we go!
32 differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant
The 32 differences are;
1. The old covenant came by Moses while the new covenant came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17).
My response: The Torah of the Old Covenant passes into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; Heb. 10:15-16), so Torah STILL applies to us.
2. The old covenant leads to death (kills) while the new covenant gives life (2 Cor 3:6)
My response: The old covenant leads to death, for those who do NOT obey in faith. The SAME is true in the New Covenant.
3. The old covenant was ended by Jesus Christ (Roman 10:4) while the new covenant was established by Jesus Christ (Heb 8:6)
My response: Wrong! The Greek term “telos” often does NOT mean “termination” or "ended" (e.g., see Rom. 6:21-22; 1 Ti. 1:5; Jas. 5:11; 1 Pe. 1:9; 1 Pe. 3:8; 1 Pe. 4:7; see also in LXX: Ps. 16:11; 38:6; 68:16; 74:10; etc.) We must use CONTEXT to determine whether “telos” in Rom. 10:4 means “termination” or not. AND, you provided nothing from the context of Rom. 10:4 which confirms that Rom. 10:4 means “termination” or "ended".
What DOES context tell us? Paul APPLIES faithful Torah-obedience to us by applying Dt. 30:14 to us in Rom. 10:8. Thus, faithful Torah-obedience IS the word of faith which Paul preached!
4. The old covenant enslaves (Gal 5:1)while the new covenant makes man free (gives freedom) (John 8:32. 36).
My response: The old covenant enslaves those WITHOUT FAITH. Those who reject the New Covenant are LIKEWISE enslaved by sin.
5. The old covenant leaves man imperfect while the new covenant leaves man perfect (Heb 7:19).
My response: Yes! But, the Old Covenant is not yet passed away, but is merely "ready" (Gr. "engoos") to pass away (Heb. 8:13). Thus, the Old Covenant had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews. It follows that New AND Old Covenants function (and apply to us) SIMULTANEOUSLY.
6. The old covenant exposes sin (Gal 3:19) while the new covenant covers sin (Rom. 4:1-8)
My response: AND, the New Covenant required that we NOT sin (Rom. 6:15). AND, sin is violation of the Torah (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4). Thus, the New Covenant LIKEWISE requires that we not sin in violation of Torah. Thus, we must STILL obey Torah!
7. The old covenant cannot give life (2 cor 3.7) while the new covenant gives life (Gal. 3:11, 6:8)
My response: The old covenant CAN give life (Dt. 30:19), if accompanied by faith (Dt. 6:10). And Paul applies Dt. 30 to us in Rom. 10. So, the Old Covenant cannot give life WITHOUT FAITH. Likewise, the New Covenant "faith" that is WITHOUT works of righteous obedience to Torah can not give life, but is dead (Jas. 2:17).
8. The old covenant was abolished while the new covenant is in force (Eph:2:15)
My response: Eph. 2:15 refers to the abolition of the MAN-MADE rule (Gr. "dogma") that separated Gentiles from non-Gentiles. This does NOT refer to abolition of Torah. Why? Because there is NOTHING in Torah that says that Gentiles must be excluded from participation in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Isarel. "Dogma" does not refer to Torah. That's why Paul applies the commands of Torah to us in 1 Cor. 7:19..
9. The old covenant brings a curse (Gal. 3:10) while the new covenant redeems from curse (Gal. 3:13)
If the old covenant brings a curse, then it is STILL IN FORCE! So let's stop pretending it no longer applies. Furthermore, it only curses those WITHOUT FAITH. That's why David (a faithful Torah-obedient person) is not cursed. And remember, Torah passes into the New Covenant as well (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; Heb. 10:15-16), so Torah still applies.
10. In the old covenant, living is by works while in the new covenant living is by faith (Gal. 3:10-11).
My response: No! The Old Covenant NEVER commanded people to live by faithless works. Paul is critiquing the Galatians because they sought justification by law without faith (Gal. 5:4-5). That's NOT proof that Paul critiquing FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.
Righteousness has ALWAYS been by faith. Same for Abraham, David, and us. But that's no excuse to ignore our Christian moral obligation to grow in faithful obedience to the law of the covenants in which we participate.
11. The old covenant is a shadow (Col. 2:14-17) while the new covenant is the reality (Heb. 10:1-18)
If it IS (present tense), then it is PRESENTLY still functioning. AND, Heb. 10:15-16 (the very passage you just cited) confirms that Torah is written upon our hearts in the New Covenant, thereby confirming that we must STILL obey Torah in the New Covenant.
12. The old covenant is a covered glory while the new covenant is glory uncovered (2 Cor. 3:13)
My response: Sounds good. (whew! Finally we agree a bit!)
13. The old covenant had many high priests (Heb. 7:23) while the new covenant has only one high priest (Jesus Christ)
(Heb. 7:24-28)
My response: BUT, the Levitical/sacrificial Priesthood will AGAIN be restored, in fulfillment of many prophecies (e.g., Dt. 30:1-8; Zec. 14:16-21; Jer. 33:19-26; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66:21-22; Is. 2:3-4; Mic. 4:2-3, Mal. 3). Again, this confirms that the Torah of the Old Covenant is NOT abolished, even though the New Covenant has already been inaugurated.
14. The old covenant had earthly priest (Heb. 5:1-4) while the new covenant has heavenly priest (Heb. 9:24, 10:12)
My response: Ok...and both function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
15. The old covenant makes priest by law while the new covenant makes priests by oath (Heb 7:12,28)
My response: Ok...and both covenants function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
16. The old covenant had earthly tabernacle (Heb. 9:2) while the new covenant has heavenly tabernacle (Heb. 8:2)
My response: Ok...and both covenants function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
17. In The old covenant priesthood was in the lineage of Aaron (Aaron priest hood) while the new covenant priesthood is in the melchisedec lineage (melchisedec priesthood) (Heb 7:11,21)
My response: Ok...and both covenants function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
18. In the old covenant priests (high priest) were sinners (Heb. 5:1-4) while in the new covenant the priest has no sin (Jesus Christ) (Heb. 7:26)
My response: Ok...and both covenants function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
19. The old covenant was fulfilled (Mat. 5:17-18) while the new covenant is now in force (Heb. 8:6, 10:9)
My response: No! "Fulfilled" does NOT mean abolished! That's why Mt. 5:17 says the Prophets are NOT ABOLISHED, confirming the Torah-laden Torah-teaching prophets are STILL IN FORCE.
AND, Mt. 5:18 says Torah does not pass away before heaven/earth pass away. And, heaven and earth have not yet passed away! So, Torah is still in force.
AND, Mt. 5:19 says our Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience DETERMINES our position in the coming kingdom.
AND, Mt. 5:20 says our works of Torah-obedience righteousness must EXCEED that of the Pharisees (who, by the way, often invented man-made rules to AVOID obeying Torah. That's why Jesus critiqued them in Mk. 7 and Mt. 23).
20. In the old, the law was written in stone tablets while in the new covenant, the law is written in people hearts (Jeremiah 31:33)
My response: YES! And that which is written upon our heart should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14) not ignored! That's WHY Paul applies the Torah-obedient Dt. 30:14 passage to us in Rom. 10:8! This IS the Torah-obedient word of faith which Paul preached.
21. In the old, the Ark of covenant was present as a sign of salvation while in the new covenant salvation is by grace through faith
My response: Salvation was ALWAYS by grace through faith! Look at Moses. He perceived God's grace (Gr. "charis" in Ex. 33:13 LXX....the same exact "charis" found in the New Testament). And what was Moses' response? To seek to know God and His ways (Ex. 33:13). Where did God's ways come to be found written? The written law of Moses! (1 Ki. 2:3). Thus, the proper response to God's saving grace has ALWAYS been to seek to know God with growing and faithful obedience to His laws.
22. The old covenant demanded works (doing) while the new covenant only demands obedience
My response: That's the same thing! The Old Covenant requires obedience to law (Dt. 6:25). Jesus (who inaugurated the New Covenant for us) likewise applies Dt. 6 to us in Mt. 22:37. SAME THING.
Moreover, the New Covenant requires that we NOT sin (Rom. 6:25), and sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4); thus the New Covenant likewise requires that we NOT disobey Torah. Thus Torah still applies!
23. In the old, Moses and prophets were mediators while in the new covenant, Jesus Christ is the mediator
My response: Both covenants are simultaneously in force (Heb. 8:13).
24. The old covenant is a covenant of letter while the new covenant is a covenant of spirit
My response: The Torah IS spiritual (Rom. 7:14), and those who reject the letters (words) of the Torah-laden New Covenant will be spiritually dead (Heb. 6:4-6; Heb. 10:26-27). Thus, John says that we must DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 3:7) works of righteousness in obedience to God's commands (1 Jn. 5:3). Where are God's commands found? The Torah of Moses! (1 Ki. 2:3).
25. The old covenant needed offering for sin while in the new covenant, Jesus is the perfect sin offering
My response: Yes!
26. The old covenant needed statues and ordinances while the new covenant only needs ones heart
My response: And what is written upon our heart? The statutes/ordinances/judgments of Torah! (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; Heb. 10:15-16; 1 Cor. 7:19; 1 Jn. 5:3; Mt. 22:37 applying Dt. 6 to us).
27. In the old covenant, the tabernacle was made with hands while in the new covenant the tabernacle is made without hands
My response: Good.
28. In the old covenant, remembrance of sin was done yearly while in the new covenant, forgiveness and washing away of sin was done once and for all
My response: Yes. But BOTH covenants function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
29. The old covenant remembers sin (Heb. 10:3) while the new covenant does not remember sin(Heb. 8:12, 10:17)
My response: But the TORAH of the Old Covenant passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33).
30. The old covenant is a ministry of death while the new covenant is a ministry of life (2 Cor 3:6-7)
My response: The old covenant is a ministry of death only for those without faith. Are Moses and David suffering the death of the Old Covenant? Of course not! They FAITHFULLY obeyed Torah, as should we. That's why Moses and David are good examples to us of faith (Heb. 11).
31. The old covenant was written with ink while the new covenant is written with the spirit of God (2 Cor 3:3)
My response: And the Spirit is contrasted with the flesh (Rom. 8:4-7). The flesh can NOT obey God's Torah (Rom. 8:7). Thus, we who walk by the Spirit OBEY Torah.
32. The old covenant is for Israelites only (Det 4: 7-8) while the new covenant is for all men (Luke 22:20)
All glory to the author of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.
My response: Gentiles are welcomed to be INCLUDED in Israel....and always have been.....(Dt. 29; Dt. 31; Is. 56; Eph. 2; Rom. 11).
And, EVERY New Covenant participant is an Israelite! (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10).
And HOW should Israelites live? In faithful obedience to the TORAH of the many covenants (Eph. 2:12) in which they participate.
CONCLUSION: Can we all, now, see the many shortcomings of the post I've now critiqued?
I pray so....
blessings to you all...
BibleGuy
Here we go!
32 differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant
The 32 differences are;
1. The old covenant came by Moses while the new covenant came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17).
My response: The Torah of the Old Covenant passes into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; Heb. 10:15-16), so Torah STILL applies to us.
2. The old covenant leads to death (kills) while the new covenant gives life (2 Cor 3:6)
My response: The old covenant leads to death, for those who do NOT obey in faith. The SAME is true in the New Covenant.
3. The old covenant was ended by Jesus Christ (Roman 10:4) while the new covenant was established by Jesus Christ (Heb 8:6)
My response: Wrong! The Greek term “telos” often does NOT mean “termination” or "ended" (e.g., see Rom. 6:21-22; 1 Ti. 1:5; Jas. 5:11; 1 Pe. 1:9; 1 Pe. 3:8; 1 Pe. 4:7; see also in LXX: Ps. 16:11; 38:6; 68:16; 74:10; etc.) We must use CONTEXT to determine whether “telos” in Rom. 10:4 means “termination” or not. AND, you provided nothing from the context of Rom. 10:4 which confirms that Rom. 10:4 means “termination” or "ended".
What DOES context tell us? Paul APPLIES faithful Torah-obedience to us by applying Dt. 30:14 to us in Rom. 10:8. Thus, faithful Torah-obedience IS the word of faith which Paul preached!
4. The old covenant enslaves (Gal 5:1)while the new covenant makes man free (gives freedom) (John 8:32. 36).
My response: The old covenant enslaves those WITHOUT FAITH. Those who reject the New Covenant are LIKEWISE enslaved by sin.
5. The old covenant leaves man imperfect while the new covenant leaves man perfect (Heb 7:19).
My response: Yes! But, the Old Covenant is not yet passed away, but is merely "ready" (Gr. "engoos") to pass away (Heb. 8:13). Thus, the Old Covenant had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews. It follows that New AND Old Covenants function (and apply to us) SIMULTANEOUSLY.
6. The old covenant exposes sin (Gal 3:19) while the new covenant covers sin (Rom. 4:1-8)
My response: AND, the New Covenant required that we NOT sin (Rom. 6:15). AND, sin is violation of the Torah (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4). Thus, the New Covenant LIKEWISE requires that we not sin in violation of Torah. Thus, we must STILL obey Torah!
7. The old covenant cannot give life (2 cor 3.7) while the new covenant gives life (Gal. 3:11, 6:8)
My response: The old covenant CAN give life (Dt. 30:19), if accompanied by faith (Dt. 6:10). And Paul applies Dt. 30 to us in Rom. 10. So, the Old Covenant cannot give life WITHOUT FAITH. Likewise, the New Covenant "faith" that is WITHOUT works of righteous obedience to Torah can not give life, but is dead (Jas. 2:17).
8. The old covenant was abolished while the new covenant is in force (Eph:2:15)
My response: Eph. 2:15 refers to the abolition of the MAN-MADE rule (Gr. "dogma") that separated Gentiles from non-Gentiles. This does NOT refer to abolition of Torah. Why? Because there is NOTHING in Torah that says that Gentiles must be excluded from participation in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Isarel. "Dogma" does not refer to Torah. That's why Paul applies the commands of Torah to us in 1 Cor. 7:19..
9. The old covenant brings a curse (Gal. 3:10) while the new covenant redeems from curse (Gal. 3:13)
If the old covenant brings a curse, then it is STILL IN FORCE! So let's stop pretending it no longer applies. Furthermore, it only curses those WITHOUT FAITH. That's why David (a faithful Torah-obedient person) is not cursed. And remember, Torah passes into the New Covenant as well (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; Heb. 10:15-16), so Torah still applies.
10. In the old covenant, living is by works while in the new covenant living is by faith (Gal. 3:10-11).
My response: No! The Old Covenant NEVER commanded people to live by faithless works. Paul is critiquing the Galatians because they sought justification by law without faith (Gal. 5:4-5). That's NOT proof that Paul critiquing FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.
Righteousness has ALWAYS been by faith. Same for Abraham, David, and us. But that's no excuse to ignore our Christian moral obligation to grow in faithful obedience to the law of the covenants in which we participate.
11. The old covenant is a shadow (Col. 2:14-17) while the new covenant is the reality (Heb. 10:1-18)
If it IS (present tense), then it is PRESENTLY still functioning. AND, Heb. 10:15-16 (the very passage you just cited) confirms that Torah is written upon our hearts in the New Covenant, thereby confirming that we must STILL obey Torah in the New Covenant.
12. The old covenant is a covered glory while the new covenant is glory uncovered (2 Cor. 3:13)
My response: Sounds good. (whew! Finally we agree a bit!)
13. The old covenant had many high priests (Heb. 7:23) while the new covenant has only one high priest (Jesus Christ)
(Heb. 7:24-28)
My response: BUT, the Levitical/sacrificial Priesthood will AGAIN be restored, in fulfillment of many prophecies (e.g., Dt. 30:1-8; Zec. 14:16-21; Jer. 33:19-26; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66:21-22; Is. 2:3-4; Mic. 4:2-3, Mal. 3). Again, this confirms that the Torah of the Old Covenant is NOT abolished, even though the New Covenant has already been inaugurated.
14. The old covenant had earthly priest (Heb. 5:1-4) while the new covenant has heavenly priest (Heb. 9:24, 10:12)
My response: Ok...and both function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
15. The old covenant makes priest by law while the new covenant makes priests by oath (Heb 7:12,28)
My response: Ok...and both covenants function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
16. The old covenant had earthly tabernacle (Heb. 9:2) while the new covenant has heavenly tabernacle (Heb. 8:2)
My response: Ok...and both covenants function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
17. In The old covenant priesthood was in the lineage of Aaron (Aaron priest hood) while the new covenant priesthood is in the melchisedec lineage (melchisedec priesthood) (Heb 7:11,21)
My response: Ok...and both covenants function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
18. In the old covenant priests (high priest) were sinners (Heb. 5:1-4) while in the new covenant the priest has no sin (Jesus Christ) (Heb. 7:26)
My response: Ok...and both covenants function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
19. The old covenant was fulfilled (Mat. 5:17-18) while the new covenant is now in force (Heb. 8:6, 10:9)
My response: No! "Fulfilled" does NOT mean abolished! That's why Mt. 5:17 says the Prophets are NOT ABOLISHED, confirming the Torah-laden Torah-teaching prophets are STILL IN FORCE.
AND, Mt. 5:18 says Torah does not pass away before heaven/earth pass away. And, heaven and earth have not yet passed away! So, Torah is still in force.
AND, Mt. 5:19 says our Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience DETERMINES our position in the coming kingdom.
AND, Mt. 5:20 says our works of Torah-obedience righteousness must EXCEED that of the Pharisees (who, by the way, often invented man-made rules to AVOID obeying Torah. That's why Jesus critiqued them in Mk. 7 and Mt. 23).
20. In the old, the law was written in stone tablets while in the new covenant, the law is written in people hearts (Jeremiah 31:33)
My response: YES! And that which is written upon our heart should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14) not ignored! That's WHY Paul applies the Torah-obedient Dt. 30:14 passage to us in Rom. 10:8! This IS the Torah-obedient word of faith which Paul preached.
21. In the old, the Ark of covenant was present as a sign of salvation while in the new covenant salvation is by grace through faith
My response: Salvation was ALWAYS by grace through faith! Look at Moses. He perceived God's grace (Gr. "charis" in Ex. 33:13 LXX....the same exact "charis" found in the New Testament). And what was Moses' response? To seek to know God and His ways (Ex. 33:13). Where did God's ways come to be found written? The written law of Moses! (1 Ki. 2:3). Thus, the proper response to God's saving grace has ALWAYS been to seek to know God with growing and faithful obedience to His laws.
22. The old covenant demanded works (doing) while the new covenant only demands obedience
My response: That's the same thing! The Old Covenant requires obedience to law (Dt. 6:25). Jesus (who inaugurated the New Covenant for us) likewise applies Dt. 6 to us in Mt. 22:37. SAME THING.
Moreover, the New Covenant requires that we NOT sin (Rom. 6:25), and sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4); thus the New Covenant likewise requires that we NOT disobey Torah. Thus Torah still applies!
23. In the old, Moses and prophets were mediators while in the new covenant, Jesus Christ is the mediator
My response: Both covenants are simultaneously in force (Heb. 8:13).
24. The old covenant is a covenant of letter while the new covenant is a covenant of spirit
My response: The Torah IS spiritual (Rom. 7:14), and those who reject the letters (words) of the Torah-laden New Covenant will be spiritually dead (Heb. 6:4-6; Heb. 10:26-27). Thus, John says that we must DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 3:7) works of righteousness in obedience to God's commands (1 Jn. 5:3). Where are God's commands found? The Torah of Moses! (1 Ki. 2:3).
25. The old covenant needed offering for sin while in the new covenant, Jesus is the perfect sin offering
My response: Yes!
26. The old covenant needed statues and ordinances while the new covenant only needs ones heart
My response: And what is written upon our heart? The statutes/ordinances/judgments of Torah! (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; Heb. 10:15-16; 1 Cor. 7:19; 1 Jn. 5:3; Mt. 22:37 applying Dt. 6 to us).
27. In the old covenant, the tabernacle was made with hands while in the new covenant the tabernacle is made without hands
My response: Good.
28. In the old covenant, remembrance of sin was done yearly while in the new covenant, forgiveness and washing away of sin was done once and for all
My response: Yes. But BOTH covenants function simultaneously (Heb. 8:13).
29. The old covenant remembers sin (Heb. 10:3) while the new covenant does not remember sin(Heb. 8:12, 10:17)
My response: But the TORAH of the Old Covenant passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33).
30. The old covenant is a ministry of death while the new covenant is a ministry of life (2 Cor 3:6-7)
My response: The old covenant is a ministry of death only for those without faith. Are Moses and David suffering the death of the Old Covenant? Of course not! They FAITHFULLY obeyed Torah, as should we. That's why Moses and David are good examples to us of faith (Heb. 11).
31. The old covenant was written with ink while the new covenant is written with the spirit of God (2 Cor 3:3)
My response: And the Spirit is contrasted with the flesh (Rom. 8:4-7). The flesh can NOT obey God's Torah (Rom. 8:7). Thus, we who walk by the Spirit OBEY Torah.
32. The old covenant is for Israelites only (Det 4: 7-8) while the new covenant is for all men (Luke 22:20)
All glory to the author of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.
My response: Gentiles are welcomed to be INCLUDED in Israel....and always have been.....(Dt. 29; Dt. 31; Is. 56; Eph. 2; Rom. 11).
And, EVERY New Covenant participant is an Israelite! (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10).
And HOW should Israelites live? In faithful obedience to the TORAH of the many covenants (Eph. 2:12) in which they participate.
CONCLUSION: Can we all, now, see the many shortcomings of the post I've now critiqued?
I pray so....
blessings to you all...
BibleGuy