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Those who would establish any other way to heaven than what the gospel of Christ reveals, will find themselves mistaken. The apostle presses upon the Galatians a due sense of their guilt in forsaking the gospel way of justification; yet he reproves with tenderness, and represents them as drawn into it by the arts of some that troubled them. In reproving others, we should be faithful, and yet endeavour to restore them in the spirit of meekness. Some would set up the works of the law in the place of Christ's righteousness, and thus they corrupted Christianity. All other gospels than that of the grace of Christ, whether more flattering to self-righteous pride, or more favourable to worldly lusts. And while we declare that to reject the moral law as a rule of life, tends to dishonour Christ, and destroy true religion, we must also declare, that all dependence for justification on good works, whether real or supposed, is as fatal to those who persist in it. While we are zealous for good works, let us be careful not to put them in the place of Christ's righteousness.
AND, Jesus argued with (and disputed) religious leaders who did NOT obey Torah (Mt. 23; Mk. 7), URGING them to OBEY Torah.
We should IMITATE this example (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn. 2:6).
AND, if Grace777x70 actually thinks our conversation here about law is foolish, then perhaps he should exit the conversation.
Although, I prefer that he actually continue to participate...
best...
BibleGuy
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win the Jews, to those who are under the Law,as one under the Law thought not being myself under the Law, so I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ. 1Chor.9:20-21
So how would someone define exactly 'the law of Christ'?
How do you explain to someone which rules you obey and which ones you don't have to? Like, you don't celebrate the feasts, but obviously you don't have liberty to move your neighbors boundary marker. Is it anything 'that does no harm to your neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law?' (Don't know where that is at the moment). But also, we have to love God, so, how would we do that in regards to obeying what? Abraham did have ordinances and regulations he obeyed it says, we just don't know what they were.
I think I heard it said once that the things which seem insignificant, like not cutting the corners of your hair, where things God wanted Isreal to be different and show they were set apart from all the other nations. Being holy. ( means set apart from in the dictionary).
So how would someone define exactly 'the law of Christ'?
How do you explain to someone which rules you obey and which ones you don't have to? Like, you don't celebrate the feasts, but obviously you don't have liberty to move your neighbors boundary marker. Is it anything 'that does no harm to your neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law?' (Don't know where that is at the moment). But also, we have to love God, so, how would we do that in regards to obeying what? Abraham did have ordinances and regulations he obeyed it says, we just don't know what they were.
I think I heard it said once that the things which seem insignificant, like not cutting the corners of your hair, where things God wanted Isreal to be different and show they were set apart from all the other nations. Being holy. ( means set apart from in the dictionary).
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Hello again HeRoseFromTheDead!
You wrote: "The old covenant was decrepit and ready to die when Hebrews 8:13 was written. That was nearly 2000 years ago. It's way beyond its expiration date. In fact, it's been dead a lot longer than it was alive."
My response: CAREFUL! All the prophecies of Revelation were ALSO ready (Gr. "engoos") to be fulfilled (Rev. 22:10), but here we are 2000 years later....and all the words of Revelation are surely NOT yet fulfilled!
Therefore, something can be "engoos" to occur, yet not occur for THOUSANDS of years.
It follows that you have NOT justified your claim that the Old Covenant is "way beyond its expiration date".
Nor have you justified your claim that "it's been dead a lot longer than it was alive."
Furthermore, do YOU participate in the Abrahamic Covenant?
Of course you do! (Gal.3 :7-9). YOU share in the inheritance (Gal. 3:29), and this includes inheritance in the land-promise given to Abraham.
AND, have you not read that the land-promise of the Abrahamic Covenant (Dt. 6:10) will be fulfilled in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah? (Dt. 6:25)
AND, have you not read that the future fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (1 Ki. 2:3-4) requires RESTORATION of Levitical Torah (Jer. 33:17-21)?
Again, your "Torah is terminated" viewpoint has been disconfirmed.
How do you address these problems with your position?
blessings...
BibleGuy
You wrote: "The old covenant was decrepit and ready to die when Hebrews 8:13 was written. That was nearly 2000 years ago. It's way beyond its expiration date. In fact, it's been dead a lot longer than it was alive."
My response: CAREFUL! All the prophecies of Revelation were ALSO ready (Gr. "engoos") to be fulfilled (Rev. 22:10), but here we are 2000 years later....and all the words of Revelation are surely NOT yet fulfilled!
Therefore, something can be "engoos" to occur, yet not occur for THOUSANDS of years.
It follows that you have NOT justified your claim that the Old Covenant is "way beyond its expiration date".
Nor have you justified your claim that "it's been dead a lot longer than it was alive."
Furthermore, do YOU participate in the Abrahamic Covenant?
Of course you do! (Gal.3 :7-9). YOU share in the inheritance (Gal. 3:29), and this includes inheritance in the land-promise given to Abraham.
AND, have you not read that the land-promise of the Abrahamic Covenant (Dt. 6:10) will be fulfilled in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah? (Dt. 6:25)
AND, have you not read that the future fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (1 Ki. 2:3-4) requires RESTORATION of Levitical Torah (Jer. 33:17-21)?
Again, your "Torah is terminated" viewpoint has been disconfirmed.
How do you address these problems with your position?
blessings...
BibleGuy
(I'm answering your post in parts)
right, obeying torah... one thing I'm learning just while being on this thread is that christians, led by the spirit, have vastly different practices of that obeying torah.
most christians go with not being concerned about the "jewish-y" stuff, obeying some commands about not stealing or lying... an of course, loving their neighbor
a few just do the loving their neighbor, and don't worry about the rest.
a few try their best to keep all the commands that can be done today, including loving their neighbor
a new thing I'm thinking is that the same Spirit can lead people in those different approaches. and, a person with one approach is not to "look down" on someone with another approach.
right, obeying torah... one thing I'm learning just while being on this thread is that christians, led by the spirit, have vastly different practices of that obeying torah.
most christians go with not being concerned about the "jewish-y" stuff, obeying some commands about not stealing or lying... an of course, loving their neighbor
a few just do the loving their neighbor, and don't worry about the rest.
a few try their best to keep all the commands that can be done today, including loving their neighbor
a new thing I'm thinking is that the same Spirit can lead people in those different approaches. and, a person with one approach is not to "look down" on someone with another approach.
No! Abraham has NOT yet received the inheritance in the land-promise. That's why he lived merely as an alien (Heb. 11:9-10).
Thus we know Abraham will surely be resurrected to find future fulfillment of this promise given to HIM.
AND, the Israelites never fully possessed all the land promised to them. Again, we await FULL fulfillment of this Abrahamic promise.
AND, this Abrahamic promise (Dt. 6:10) will be fulfilled IN CONJUNCTION with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).
But it has NOT yet happened yet!
Moses agrees...prophesying that the return to the land occurs in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 30:1-8). This is not yet fulfilled. Why? Because we are still in diaspora!
NOT all Israelites have returned to the land in obedience to ALL Torah...at least not yet! But the Prophets guarantee it will happen!
REMEMBER: The Abrahamic Covenant is to be fulfilled IN CONJUNCTION WITH the Mosaic Covenant (Jer. 11:1-5; Dt. 6:10-25; Dt. 30:1-8), but not until “the latter days” (Dt. 4:30) when an even greater exodus back to the Promised Land shall occur (Jer. 16:14-16; Jer. 23:1-8).
We should anticipate this promise with excitement and JOY and FAITH!
Just like our father Abraham...
blessings...
BibleGuy
Thus we know Abraham will surely be resurrected to find future fulfillment of this promise given to HIM.
AND, the Israelites never fully possessed all the land promised to them. Again, we await FULL fulfillment of this Abrahamic promise.
AND, this Abrahamic promise (Dt. 6:10) will be fulfilled IN CONJUNCTION with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).
But it has NOT yet happened yet!
Moses agrees...prophesying that the return to the land occurs in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 30:1-8). This is not yet fulfilled. Why? Because we are still in diaspora!
NOT all Israelites have returned to the land in obedience to ALL Torah...at least not yet! But the Prophets guarantee it will happen!
REMEMBER: The Abrahamic Covenant is to be fulfilled IN CONJUNCTION WITH the Mosaic Covenant (Jer. 11:1-5; Dt. 6:10-25; Dt. 30:1-8), but not until “the latter days” (Dt. 4:30) when an even greater exodus back to the Promised Land shall occur (Jer. 16:14-16; Jer. 23:1-8).
We should anticipate this promise with excitement and JOY and FAITH!
Just like our father Abraham...
blessings...
BibleGuy
Good Morning. Thanks for the reply.
I would think not. He is listed in the Luke account. Enoch like Abel were before God desired to use the flesh of two gentile nations. The Hittites Abram, and Amorites, Sarah to represent the flesh of all nations (Abraham the father of many nations used to typify our one Holy Father in heaven,the fathr of spirits ) for a temporal time period. Enoch like Abe were saved by the same way as you or I .As God purified their hearts by faith (His) not of their own selves.
Enoch like Abel in respect to the "salvation of their souls" would be considered as one of the old testament saints that had the Spirit of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God in them that all together with the new testament saints identified by the twelve apostles make up the spiritual house, temple of God the church, his bride, the new heavenly Jerusalem, called the mother of us all .
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1Pe 1:9
I would think not. He is listed in the Luke account. Enoch like Abel were before God desired to use the flesh of two gentile nations. The Hittites Abram, and Amorites, Sarah to represent the flesh of all nations (Abraham the father of many nations used to typify our one Holy Father in heaven,the fathr of spirits ) for a temporal time period. Enoch like Abe were saved by the same way as you or I .As God purified their hearts by faith (His) not of their own selves.
Enoch like Abel in respect to the "salvation of their souls" would be considered as one of the old testament saints that had the Spirit of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God in them that all together with the new testament saints identified by the twelve apostles make up the spiritual house, temple of God the church, his bride, the new heavenly Jerusalem, called the mother of us all .
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1Pe 1:9
The temporal land (Jerusalem) which was used as a metaphor from the beginning as that seen represented that not seen the eternal the new heavenly Jerusalem the mother of us us all. .The city we look for a pilgrims and strangers (Christians) is not of here, never was, never will be.
2Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
We do not measure the faith of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God in respect to the fathers(Christ’s nemesis) .
Abraham typified our heavenly Father .We do not have the faith of our Father in heaven in respect to the faith of men on earth. The whole Bible is the perfect, as in complete law of God, as God’s will to men, as it teaches us we abide in him.
The Torah is only part of the law it is not the perfect as in complete. .
2Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
We do not measure the faith of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God in respect to the fathers(Christ’s nemesis) .
Abraham typified our heavenly Father .We do not have the faith of our Father in heaven in respect to the faith of men on earth. The whole Bible is the perfect, as in complete law of God, as God’s will to men, as it teaches us we abide in him.
The Torah is only part of the law it is not the perfect as in complete. .
Yes, Luke, under the inspiration of the spirit, followed the lxx tradition. Should we follow in Luke's footsteps?
Do you feel that Luke neglected Jer. 16:21 when he wrote the Gospel?
Now, Joshua used yhwh. No question about that. But Joshua wasn't translating.
When we translate from Hebrew to another language and we come to yhwh, what should we do? We see what Luke did.
Do you feel that Luke neglected Jer. 16:21 when he wrote the Gospel?
Now, Joshua used yhwh. No question about that. But Joshua wasn't translating.
When we translate from Hebrew to another language and we come to yhwh, what should we do? We see what Luke did.
ah, I see... diaspora in the sense of most christians living outside of Israel. But it doesn't sound like there's anything preventing jewish people from moving.
yes, I agree that there is a growing movement in christianity to make it more "jewish". but also, a growing resistance to that.
yes, fully keeping torah is what it's all about... just a matter of the best way to go about that.
yes, I agree that there is a growing movement in christianity to make it more "jewish". but also, a growing resistance to that.
yes, fully keeping torah is what it's all about... just a matter of the best way to go about that.
several ways to look at Mark 7, but I don't think Jesus is saying christians shouldn't eat pork.
first, a note about Jesus saying "All foods are clean". it's not there in some ancient manuscripts. Nestle-Aland include it, so that's good enough for me.
I think Jesus is saying eat whatever is set before you
"whatever goes into the man from outside can’t defile him, because it doesn’t go into his heart".
but he's not saying ignore Lev. 11. he's saying fulfill it by bringing good stuff out of your heart, and through your mouth.
first, a note about Jesus saying "All foods are clean". it's not there in some ancient manuscripts. Nestle-Aland include it, so that's good enough for me.
I think Jesus is saying eat whatever is set before you
"whatever goes into the man from outside can’t defile him, because it doesn’t go into his heart".
but he's not saying ignore Lev. 11. he's saying fulfill it by bringing good stuff out of your heart, and through your mouth.