House of Cornelius and the law

[Dan_473]

yes i believe that. but the source of all that, "dont murder" is still very much there. Jesus expanded on this law, taught on it, explained details but the law itself is still there.
and if we love Him we will keep His commands. Jesus said this

yes, "don't murder" is still very much there!

I think Jesus taught that hating is included in the "dont murder".

so the christian, I think, focuses on not being carried away by our lusts, not hating... so the "don't murder" is taken care of without even having to be aware of it.

for me, the same can be applied to all of the commandments.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

It makes little sense because you are adding something that i never said. if you are born into Christ through the grace of God you will not murder. The Holy Spirit guides you, not your flesh

I just have to ask you personally, does the Holy Spirit guide you to keep the sabbath and lay off the swine ? If not then the flesh might have the upper hand in your life, unless you knew nothing about this.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

again, we read it differently.

I think, if we can say that Paul saying we are the temple of God means we don't need to travel to the place God chose (it doesn't say the temple)

following that pattern,

to me it sounds right that since we are washed by Jesus, we don't need to do ritual washings.

You cant wash off physical uncleanliness with the washing of the Word, only if you take action on behalf of it. This is obvious.

 

[sparty-g]

several ways to look at Mark 7, but I don't think Jesus is saying christians shouldn't eat pork.

first, a note about Jesus saying "All foods are clean". it's not there in some ancient manuscripts. Nestle-Aland include it, so that's good enough for me.

I think Jesus is saying eat whatever is set before you
"whatever goes into the man from outside can’t defile him, because it doesn’t go into his heart".

but he's not saying ignore Lev. 11. he's saying fulfill it by bringing good stuff out of your heart, and through your mouth.

Jumping in from the shadows...

You're right friend, the Messiah is not saying Christians shouldn't eat pork. Here He's completely silent on the issue because the Torah's dietary restrictions regarding clean and unclean meats are not the topic of discussion in these passages. The topic is, as BibleGuy pointed out, ritual handwashing and whether or not dirty hands can make food unfit for consumption, and God's definition of food (i.e., what is fit for consumption as defined by God Himself in the Torah; cf. Lev. 11, Deut. 14 and other places) is assumed. Lessons from this story should be understood within that scope. When asked by the disciples about the point of His parable, the Messiah gives it plainly: "These things [the previous list of sins] defile a person, but eating with unwashed hands does not defile a person" (Matt. 15:20). It's plainly evident that no one present understood Him to be talking about anything else other than the rabbinical rule of handwashing (which is not a Torah command) -- His listeners didn't flip out and immediately arrest Him for speaking blasphemy against God's Torah, and Peter (who was a witness to this event) came away with no different understanding of what constitutes food, as evidenced by his bewilderment in response to the vision of the sheet recorded in Acts. The Messiah is not saying "eat whatever is set before you" (that would include blood, human flesh, and anything else imaginable) and He is also not saying to ignore God's definition of food, as you correctly state. If He were saying these things, He would be undermining His own accusation against His critics here: "Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites!" (Matt. 15:6-7). It's pretty difficult to fault someone for nullifying the word of God in one breath, and then nullify it yourself in the next. There is nothing about clean and unclean meats here unless one reads his or her own theology into it.

Blessings, friend.

 

[Dan_473]

I just have to ask you personally, does the Holy Spirit guide you to keep the sabbath and lay off the swine ? If not then the flesh might have the upper hand in your life, unless you knew nothing about this.

I think this is a good test of whether a person is following the spirit

19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Galatians 5

 

[Dan_473]

You cant wash off physical uncleanliness with the washing of the Word, only if you take action on behalf of it. This is obvious.

if a person believes the law was really about physical cleaness, then yes, they would want to follow the ritual washings.

 

[Dan_473]

Jumping in from the shadows...

You're right friend, the Messiah is not saying Christians shouldn't eat pork. Here He's completely silent on the issue because the Torah's dietary restrictions regarding clean and unclean meats are not the topic of discussion in these passages. The topic is, as BibleGuy pointed out, ritual handwashing and whether or not dirty hands can make food unfit for consumption, and God's definition of food (i.e., what is fit for consumption as defined by God Himself in the Torah; cf. Lev. 11, Deut. 14 and other places) is assumed. Lessons from this story should be understood within that scope. When asked by the disciples about the point of His parable, the Messiah gives it plainly: "These things [the previous list of sins] defile a person, but eating with unwashed hands does not defile a person" (Matt. 15:20). It's plainly evident that no one present understood Him to be talking about anything else other than the rabbinical rule of handwashing (which is not a Torah command) -- His listeners didn't flip out and immediately arrest Him for speaking blasphemy against God's Torah, and Peter (who was a witness to this event) came away with no different understanding of what constitutes food, as evidenced by his bewilderment in response to the vision of the sheet recorded in Acts. The Messiah is not saying "eat whatever is set before you" (that would include blood, human flesh, and anything else imaginable) and He is also not saying to ignore God's definition of food, as you correctly state. If He were saying these things, He would be undermining His own accusation against His critics here: "Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites!" (Matt. 15:6-7). It's pretty difficult to fault someone for nullifying the word of God in one breath, and then nullify it yourself in the next. There is nothing about clean and unclean meats here unless one reads his or her own theology into it.

Blessings, friend.

well, we certainly see it differently.

I think Jesus is using his authority to say what the food laws were really all about... not having bad stuff come out of your mouth

"there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man."

 

[simplifiedtruth]

I think this is a good test of whether a person is following the spirit

19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Galatians 5

Yes that are some very Obvious manifestations of the flesh. Do not forget Paul also included Divisions and Heresies. The fruit of the Spirit is also as noted Patience, Faith and Self-control, which is what we need to be Obedient the Gospel which includes repenting of our sins and being Obedient to the law. Jesus commanded the Apostles to teach what so ever He had commanded (Matt 28:20). Which includes Repentance and obedience to the law (Matt 5:17-19).

Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Also the paraphrase commentary put into Matt 15:11 about Jesus making all food clean is not part of the gospel and is simply commentary put into the text only in newer translations. You will not find it in translations older than 50-90 years ago. It was also talking about eating with unwashed hands and not unclean food (Matt 15:2). The Israelites did not eat swine because it has always been forbidden to eat. And Jesus commanded the disciples at that time to not go into the cities of the gentiles but to go to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, which knew the law (Matt 10:5-6). That is also why they were to eat what was set before them because they would not serve unclean meat to Israel.

 

[sparty-g]

well, we certainly see it differently.

I think Jesus is using his authority to say what the food laws were really all about... not having bad stuff come out of your mouth

"there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man."

That's fine, friend. You are free to interpret however you like. If we're going to accept that these verses demonstrate the Messiah saying we are free to eat whatever we like, then we also have to accept the following facts of the text and logical conclusions thereof:

1. That the text never mentions clean and unclean meats (the "food laws" as you call them), but yet we are to believe this is the topic.
2. That the text explicitly frames the discussion (both in how it's set up and in its conclusion) as being about the tradition of ritual handwishing using direct language, but yet we are to believe it's really about the unmentioned "food laws."
3. That the text provides no evidence that anyone interpreted the words of the Messiah to be about the unmentioned "food laws," but yet we today know it was about those laws.
4. That the Messiah chastises the Pharisees and Torah-teachers for nullifying the word of God, then turns around and nullifies it Himself, thus doing the same thing he casts them as guilty of doing.
5. That if we believe that "What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them" applies to unstated dietary restrictions beyond the stated ritual handwashing, then we are free to consume literally anything: goblets of blood, human flesh, you know name it.

If you're comfortable with these, then feel free to carry on. If any of these bother you, then it's time to study the text a bit more and take it before God in prayer. I personally can't accept any of those points and reject this passage being about clean and unclean meats, but prefer the explicitly stated premise of the discussion -- ritual handwashing.

It seems like you might be basing your understanding of this entire encounter on your interpretation of one phrase: "What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them." If so, then we can discuss that.

Blessings, friend.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Matthew 25:

The Parable of the Ten Virgins1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.
Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
Psalms 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Heres a couple also

Oil in the dwelling of the wise

Prov 21:20 There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise;
but a foolish man spendeth it up. (Mat 25:8)

Showing the foolish spendeth it up

Prov 29:3 Whoso loveth wisdom rejoiceth his father:
buthe that keepeth company with harlots spendeth his substance.

These two also

1Cr 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ,and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

sounds like we have a different interpretation of torah about washings...

of course, that's to be expected. we'd probably both disagree with a rabbi from a thousand years ago...




that's cool about the fringes. do you let the edges of your beard grow?

The only interpretation from the Torah is to wash yourself and clothes with physical water so the physical uncleanliness upon you is removed (semen , menstrual discharges, contact from carrying and handling dead animals).

The hair/beard issue is in relation to mourning and memorial of the dead like the heathen at that time used to do if you read the text and see what context it is talking about.

 

[redeemed2014]

I just have to ask you personally, does the Holy Spirit guide you to keep the sabbath and lay off the swine ? If not then the flesh might have the upper hand in your life, unless you knew nothing about this.

Being that i am not a Jew i do not fall under judaic law, I am also aware of it thank you.

 

[redeemed2014]

I just have to ask you personally, does the Holy Spirit guide you to keep the sabbath and lay off the swine ? If not then the flesh might have the upper hand in your life, unless you knew nothing about this.

Also read about the vision the Lord gives Peter before he goes to Cornelius

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Being that i am not a Jew i do not fall under judaic law, I am also aware of it thank you.

Who told you that ? Certainly not Jesus Christ (Matt 5:17-19, Matt 7:21.23, Matt 19:16-17, 1 John 3:4). There is only one Lord, one faith and one baptism (Eph 4:5) and Jesus Christ is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever! (Hebrews 13:8). There is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female for we are all One in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:28). It is not the judaic law but the law of God, which is the marriage term we are to learn to keep after receiving Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour(Matt 5:17-19).

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Also read about the vision the Lord gives Peter before he goes to Cornelius

The vision Peter had in Acts chapter 10 is not about God changing He's mind about what is lawful and unlawful to eat. Peter answered after seeing the vision: Verse 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. God says in the next verse: 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Now Peter explains what God meant with the vision in verse 28: 28And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The interpretation of the vision is clearly that Cornelius which was of another nation were accepted of God and that Peter should minister to him even tho it is unlawful to keep company with the (Heathen) nations. Peter understood the vision as stated in verse 28 that he should not call any MAN common or unclean that God had cleansed.

People are very quick to misinterpret this verse into saying we can eat pig now even tho the explanation of the vision is in the very same chapter.

Always remember Jesus Christs words in Matthew 5:17-19, and that God does not change(Malachi 3:6).

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi Bible guy,



Our Lord, or what you call THVH is simply and extension of the word Joshua, Jesus as Savoir .

God does not have a name like that of men. It would seem you are confusing the things of God with those of men. He does not need a name to distinguish himself from false gods as if he was in some sort of visual look alike competition and some might get him mixed with false gods. All the names of God speak of his immutable attributes. They are titles. Not merely but clearly.

What some of the Jews have did in respect to the tetragrammaton is their private tradition .It is not a tradition of God as some sort of secret word belonging to members only . So you can use the tetragrammaton, as an oral tradition of men like a Catholic uses a rosary but it only means something according to your opinion. It is not a law of faith that comes from hearing God by faith. .



The whole Bible is the perfect law of God found in what he calls the “book of the perfect law and we call the Bible .There are no philosophical theories in the whole bible . It is why it is called the “law of faith” in respect to His faith and not the theory of faith in respect to us. What must be believed ,as a law found in Genesis applies to any of the chapters or what we call books. All must be obeyed equally

Hi there garee!

You wrote: "Our Lord, or what you call THVH is simply and extension of the word Joshua, Jesus as Savoir ."

My response: Not sure what you mean....

YHVH is not an extension of the word Joshua.

Rather, YHVH is the NAME which the one and only true God applies to Himself (Jer. 16:21).

English "Jesus" comes from Greek "Iesous". And, the Hebrew word "Yehoshua" translates into Greek as "Iesous". So English "Jesus" is really the same as the Hebrew for "Yehoshua". And, the Hebrew term "Yehoshua" translates directly into English as "Joshua". So that's why there is a sense in which "Jesus" = "Joshua".

But, the name "Jesus" is not grammatically equivalent to the name "YHVH". That is, "Jesus" is the name given to the Son, whereas "YHVH" is the name that the supreme one-and-only true God uses in reference to Himself.

Sure, "Jesus" shares many attributes which belong only to YHVH...thus we find credibility in a properly nuanced doctrine of the deity of the Messiah Yeshua.

AND, the name "YHVH" is also given to Yeshua (Jn. 17:11), but this is not a grammatical equivalence.

And, the spelling I use is YHVH (denoting the Hebrew letters yod-hey-vav-hey, as it is spelled throughout the Tanach), not THVH.

Anyway...thanks for writing!

BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi Bible guy.



It means the beginning of the "generation of Christ," no longer typified by the outward flesh of a Jew had begun. The genealogy in Mathew beginning with Abraham through Joseph ....today is no longer needed to carry on.

The book of the "generation of Jesus Christ", the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;Mat 1:1-2

You could say that temporal list in respect to the seed, singular (spiritual) of Christ which began with Abraham ended with Joeseph the husband of Mary. It was never in respect to seeds (many)as to the flesh of those men.

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.Mat 1:16-17


It is called the last days or the end times. The first century reformation reformed that temporal order of types and shadows. Which never did provide any kind of spiritual substance needed to forgive ones eternal debt of sin.

Foods necessary for these bodies of death that will die do not bring us closer to God. They enter our mouth into our stomach and come out as draught. It cannot enter ones soul.

To eat or drink spiritually is a work of faith,( believing God not seen) . It is not seen with the human eye. Jesus spoke of that kind of food in which the apostles knew not of.

The Christian meat or bread is to do the will of God, who works by faith in us to both will and do his good purpose. It Is God who performs that which is appointed to us.

In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Joh 4:31

Ham although high in cholesterol goes good with eggs .Like all food they must be taken in moderation .

Hello,

You wrote: "Ham although high in cholesterol goes good with eggs .Like all food they must be taken in moderation."

My response: Ham is not food.

Peter applies Lev. 11 to you (1 Pe. 1:15-16). So BE HOLY...and thus do NOT eat ham.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

The temporal land (Jerusalem) which was used as a metaphor from the beginning as that seen represented that not seen the eternal the new heavenly Jerusalem the mother of us us all. .The city we look for a pilgrims and strangers (Christians) is not of here, never was, never will be.

2Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

We do not measure the faith of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God in respect to the fathers(Christ’s nemesis) .

Abraham typified our heavenly Father .We do not have the faith of our Father in heaven in respect to the faith of men on earth. The whole Bible is the perfect, as in complete law of God, as God’s will to men, as it teaches us we abide in him.

The Torah is only part of the law it is not the perfect as in complete. .

Hello,

You wrote: "The city we look for a pilgrims and strangers (Christians) is not of here, never was, never will be."

My response: Moses PROMISED us that we will be restored back to the land in 100% complete obedience to all Torah.

Do you accept or oppose this yet-to-be-fulfilled prophecy?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Yes, Luke, under the inspiration of the spirit, followed the lxx tradition. Should we follow in Luke's footsteps?

Do you feel that Luke neglected Jer. 16:21 when he wrote the Gospel?

Now, Joshua used yhwh. No question about that. But Joshua wasn't translating.

When we translate from Hebrew to another language and we come to yhwh, what should we do? We see what Luke did.

You wrote: "Yes, Luke, under the inspiration of the spirit, followed the lxx tradition. Should we follow in Luke's footsteps?"

My response: LITERALLY follow in his footsteps? Of course not! That would require that we only write in GREEK (because that's the method Luke showed us, right?!)

The command to make disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20) implicitly REQUIRES that we learn and use other languages to communicate with the disciples of all nations. We have no reason to suppose Luke would oppose this fact.

So let's not assume that Luke (who chose Greek, and who chose to follow a "kurious" translation tradition for "YHVH") was setting a binding tradition we must feel obligated to imitate in all respects.

No...Luke did not neglect Jer. 16:21 when he wrote the Gospel. Rather, Luke confirms that Jesus is the Messiah. The Messiah confirms that the prophets are still in force. The prophets include Jeremiah. Thus, in this sense, Luke may be viewed as confirming the ongoing force of the prophets...even Jer. 16:21...which confirms that YHVH desires that we know that YHVH's name is YHVH!

blessings...
BibleGuy