House of Cornelius and the law

[garee]

The law of the Spirit is the same as the law of Christ. The law of the Spirit is the Torah being placed into our hearts, Jesus being our ministering High Priest in real time, atoning for our sins when we fall short and sin when we acknowledge our transgressions and crooked ways.

The whole Bible (the book of law) is the law of the Spirit .It as a whole contains no philosophical theories of men. Every law is an eye witness account of one who was their moving men according to the good purpose of his revealed will.

In the beginning God created. It is the first law. Do not add or subtract from the prophecy of this book, the last. Trying to divide it in to different sections as if some laws had a higher degree and others lower is where I believe some error. it would be like saying the good new(gospel is only found in chapters .When it begins in the beginning . And on the 7th day God rested as the Sabaath rest we do enter into according to the lamb of God slain from that foundation.

If we would offend any part of the Bible, the book of the law , to include the gospel which as a law commands us to believe upon the Lord as he gives us the His faith to make it possible we will be found guilty of the whole.


James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the "whole law", and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[BibleGuy]

I would like to ask some questions to those trying to force the law on people.

Knowing that the Lord does not change, sin is sin, I believe everybody here will agree with that because the bible clearly states it.

1. In the garden when Adam and Eve fell, what did the Lord do about it?

2. Did they die, or did the Lord have mercy on them and provide a covering and also gave them a promise?

3. Does Adam naming the woman Eve because she is the mother of all living show that Adam knew the Lord would show mercy on them, and had faith in His promise?

4. How did the Lord deal with mankind before the flood, and how did he deal with Noah? (We know Noah was a sinner because the bible clearly states that all have sinned)

5. How did the Lord deal with mankind after the flood, and how did he deal with Abraham? (Abraham also is a sinner)

6. When did the Law enter?

7. How is the Lord dealing with us now, in the age of grace? (We are all sinners)

Through out the entire bible sin is sin, God was the same in the beginning and does not change. Clearly we are told how the Lord has dealt with sinners from the beginning of time. Each one is different, yet God does not change and we know that. So God does not change but the way he deals with mankind does as you can read through out the bible.

8. So if the way the Lord dealt with mankind changed over time, why would the way the Lord deals with mankind not change after the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ when he became that perfect eternal sacrifice for sin?

God Bless

Hi redeemed2014,

Lots of questions!

But why suppose the law is "forced" upon anyone?

Rather, it is a privilege and JOY to partake in the covenants (Eph. 2:12).

What covenants? Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New Covenants! (ALL of which have associated Torah we should obey).

I don't have time right now to answer everything on your mind....

Can you explain where you think these questions lead you?

Then we can take it from there.

Especially, why assume we are now "in the age of grace"?

After all, the same word for grace (Gr. "charis") appears likewise in the LXX (e.g., Ex. 33:13) where Moses perceived God's grace.

And what is Moses' response to this grace? To seek to know God and His ways (Ex. 33:13).

And where did God's ways come to be written? The written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

So there you have it: GRACE and TORAH, hand-in-hand.

God graciously credited righteousness to our father Abraham by faith (Rom. 4:3), but Abraham ALSO obeyed Torah available to him (Ge. 26:5).

Likewise, we (like our father Abraham) are righteous by faith, but we ALSO seek to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the covenants in which we participate.

Remember, the same "Torah" passes straight into the New Covenant (see "Torah", Jer. 31:33).

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

I'm all in favor of obedience to the law, what the law is really all about.

you are correct that Matt 15 doesn't have the part about Jesus making all food clean.
I believe it's there in mark 7.

about eating whatever is set before you, I was thinking of what Paul said in 1 cor 10, "But if one of those who don’t believe invites you to a meal, and you are inclined to go, eat whatever is set before you"

Hi Dan,

I'm rather concerned about your comment: "I'm all in favor of obedience to the law, what the law is really all about."

Sounds like your assuming the law was not REALLY about what is stated in the law.

So you could use this assumption to re-interpret the law so as to potentially lead you away from actually doing what it says!

That's a DANGEROUS assumption.

Let's assume, instead, that God actually expects us to obey what he actually commands!

That's a MUCH safer assumption!

I'll err on the side of actually seeking to obey Him.

I hope you do not err on the side of erroneously assuming He didn't really mean what He said in His commands!

Just a word of concern, buddy...

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[garee]

I'm rather concerned about your comment: "I'm all in favor of obedience to the law, what the law is really all about."

Sounds like your assuming the law was not REALLY about what is stated in the law.

So you could use this assumption to re-interpret the law so as to potentially lead you away from actually doing what it says!

I would not say re-interpret but interpret according to His interpretation. Are you speaking of ceremonial laws? If not which one?

No man can keep it the moral laws without stumbling at one point. And when they do stumble they will be found guilty of violating the whole. In order for us to keep as that which he already accomplished by becoming sin in our place. We can guard it with all our heart soul and mind. But to keep it without sinning that is an impossibility.

Strong’s Lexicon (Keep) 5083 tereo {tay-reh'-o}
from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT - 8:140,1174; v
AV - keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, hold fast 1; 75
1) to attend to carefully, take care of 1a) to guard 1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is 1c) to observe 1d) to reserve: to undergo something

That's a DANGEROUS assumption.

Let's assume, instead, that God actually expects us to obey what he actually commands!

He does expect us to but knows no man can. It would be dangerous to think we could keep it without stumbling(sinning )

 

[garee]

Hi there!

You wrote: "...but not to use his freedom as a cover up for in..."

My response: AND, sin is Torah-violation (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).

Thus, we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).

Thus, we should not violate Torah.

Thus, we should obey Torah!

Thus, we should not use "freedom" as a cover up for Torah-disobedience!

blessings...
BibleGuy

Do you sin? Or make him out to be the liar? Can’t serve two masters. Can we? .

If so that you do sin what is the wage? Would it take an eternal person to fulfill the requirement?

Or are you rather trusting in Purgatory seeing you must see His work as not finished and therefore you must suffer for another undetermined amount of time, and of grace as undeserved favor. Seeing it seems that the grace of God which teaches us to say no to such ungodliness by doing despite to His grace? Do you need his Grace through His mercy ? How much if any??

 

[BibleGuy]

I would not say re-interpret but interpret according to His interpretation. Are you speaking of ceremonial laws? If not which one?

No man can keep it the moral laws without stumbling at one point. And when they do stumble they will be found guilty of violating the whole. In order for us to keep as that which he already accomplished by becoming sin in our place. We can guard it with all our heart soul and mind. But to keep it without sinning that is an impossibility.





He does expect us to but knows no man can. It would be dangerous to think we could keep it without stumbling(sinning )

Hi again!

You wrote: "I would not say re-interpret but interpret according to His interpretation."

My response: God never said that any of His commands actually needs to be interpreted in some OTHER way such that the original command is, therefore, no longer in force.

Right?

Sure, Torah portions can (and do) point to greater realities (for example, point to the work of Messiah, etc.), but that's no excuse to fail to obey those Torah portions.

Where did God ever say we should interpret Torah portions in such a way that those portions should no longer be obeyed?

I submit that God never said such a thing.

So, neither should you, especially since we have an abundance of Scripture which confirms Torah SHOULD be obeyed.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Do you sin? Or make him out to be the liar? Can’t serve two masters. Can we? .

If so that you do sin what is the wage? Would it take an eternal person to fulfill the requirement?

Or are you rather trusting in Purgatory seeing you must see His work as not finished and therefore you must suffer for another undetermined amount of time, and of grace as undeserved favor. Seeing it seems that the grace of God which teaches us to say no to such ungodliness by doing despite to His grace? Do you need his Grace through His mercy ? How much if any??

You completely ignored the Scriptural logic I set forth.

I'll say it again:

Sin is Torah-violation (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).

Thus, we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).

Thus, we should not violate Torah.

Thus, we should obey Torah!

Thus, we should not use "freedom" as a cover up for Torah-disobedience!

Now, you ask: "Do you sin?"

My response: I seek to obey Torah...if I slip...then I get up again...seeking to obey Torah, as Scripture commands.

Who said I'm serving two masters?

Our ONE master (Jesus) commands Torah obedience. There's only one master here!

The Master obeyed Torah, and we should imitate that example (Lk. 6:4; 1 Jn. 2:6).

I never claimed I never sinned. Of course all have sinned. But that's no excuse to continue sinning!

Therefore, stop sinning, stop disobeying Torah, and obey Torah!

Why would I trust in Purgatory? That's a completely unscriptural concept.

You wrote: "Do you need his Grace through His mercy ? How much if any??"

My response: Of course we need his mercy (Rom. 15:9, Gr. "eleos"). BUT, God's mercy (Gr. "eleos", Dt. 5:10, LXX) is not extended to everyone...but to those who OBEY the commands (Dt. 5:10).

It's the SAME mercy (Gr. "eleos", Heb. "chesed").

Do you see how these Scriptures confirm my position?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[simplifiedtruth]

say Amen, somebody!


(a common saying in "call and response" churches)

So according to your logic you are always clean. What makes a person carrying a dead animal on their shoulders, covered in semen or menstrual discharges clean ? Can he just mentally believe that he is clean ? Can he say a word or prayer and be clean ? Does the uncleanness he has contaminated suddenly go away by itself ? Or does he actually have to wash himself ? You see how faith without works is dead faith, being alone ?

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan,

Let's clarify...

Are you claiming God never actually expected people to obey Torah?

BibleGuy

God wants people to obey the intent of torah, what torah is really all about.

prior to Jesus coming, people thought, as anyone would, that things like lev 11 were about what went into your mouth.

Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, gives a different interpretation. He says that it's really all about what comes out of your heart.

I don't think anyone without the Spirit would come to the conclusion that Jesus did.

and of course, the same Spirit that was in Jesus is in those who believe in Jesus.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

God wants people to obey the intent of torah, what torah is really all about.

prior to Jesus coming, people thought, as anyone would, that things like lev 11 were about what went into your mouth.

Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, gives a different interpretation. He says that it's really all about what comes out of your heart.

I don't think anyone without the Spirit would come to the conclusion that Jesus did.

and of course, the same Spirit that was in Jesus is in those who believe in Jesus.

You are SO wrong. The intent of the Torah is to Obey it as it says. What does it say about a mans heart condition when he Refuse to obey a strict commandment from God that Pig/Swine is totally forbidden to eat ? You see the defilement comes from the Heart before transgression has conceived through sin. Your interpretation of Jesus teaching unclean meats are fine to eat is Wrong! If Jesus did that, he would have been a sinner himself(And He did NO sin), for sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4), and He came to establish the law and teach it. And the law will stand as it is until heaven and earth pass (Matt 5:17-19). This proves that you are wrong and in transgression.

If any man teach you something other than the commandments in the Torah then he is a false teacher and a false prophet (Deut 13:3-4).

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan,

I'm rather concerned about your comment: "I'm all in favor of obedience to the law, what the law is really all about."

Sounds like your assuming the law was not REALLY about what is stated in the law.

So you could use this assumption to re-interpret the law so as to potentially lead you away from actually doing what it says!

That's a DANGEROUS assumption.

Let's assume, instead, that God actually expects us to obey what he actually commands!

That's a MUCH safer assumption!

I'll err on the side of actually seeking to obey Him.

I hope you do not err on the side of erroneously assuming He didn't really mean what He said in His commands!

Just a word of concern, buddy...

blessings...
BibleGuy

thanks for your concern! a great thing about interpreting scripture, is that we don't have to rely on our own understanding.

like Peter says,
"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Peter+1&version=NASB


now, when you say I'm "assuming the law was not REALLY about what is stated in the law", it's very true that a person, on their own power, will believe that lev 11 is about what goes into our mouths.

the same spirit that led Jesus to see things in scripture that an ordinary person wouldn't see also lives in believers.

 

[Dan_473]

God never said that any of His commands actually needs to be interpreted in some OTHER way such that the original command is, therefore, no longer in force.

like Paul says in 1 cor 2
but a natural man does not "get" the things of the Spirit of God, they seem totally wacked to him; and he can't understand them, because they are spiritually grasped"

a "natural person" can certainly read torah and say what it obviously means to a natural human.

 

[JustWhoIAm]

You are SO wrong. The intent of the Torah is to Obey it as it says. What does it say about a mans heart condition when he Refuse to obey a strict commandment from God that Pig/Swine is totally forbidden to eat ? You see the defilement comes from the Heart before transgression has conceived through sin. Your interpretation of Jesus teaching unclean meats are fine to eat is Wrong! If Jesus did that, he would have been a sinner himself(And He did NO sin), for sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4), and He came to establish the law and teach it. And the law will stand as it is until heaven and earth pass (Matt 5:17-19). This proves that you are wrong and in transgression.

If any man teach you something other than the commandments in the Torah then he is a false teacher and a false prophet (Deut 13:3-4).

How can you use the new testament to teach absolute obedience to the law in the torah?

Love God, love your neighbor, love yourself. This fulfills the entire law and prophets. Jesus said that.

Is Jesus a false teacher or not?

 

[Ahwatukee]

So according to your logic you are always clean. What makes a person carrying a dead animal on their shoulders, covered in semen or menstrual discharges clean ? Can he just mentally believe that he is clean ? Can he say a word or prayer and be clean ? Does the uncleanness he has contaminated suddenly go away by itself ? Or does he actually have to wash himself ? You see how faith without works is dead faith, being alone ?

Hello again,

I tell you truth, if a true believer in Christ was "carrying a dead animal on their shoulders, covered in semen or menstrual discharges clean" and at that moment the Lord appeared to gather the church, that believer with all of the fluids mention would immediately be changed into their immortal and glorified body and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Have you never read: "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"? It is our spirit that has been purified through faith. We are saved by grace through faith apart from works. Abraham did no work of his own, but was credited with righteousness because he believed God. James uses a wrong example citing that Abraham was credited with righteous when he was test with his son Isaac, but Abraham was credited with righteousness a year before Isaac was even born because he believed God when he said that he would give Abraham a son and that his offspring would be as numerous as the stars in the sky and because Abraham believed God regarding this is why he was credited with righteousness. Purely by faith. Believers are not saved by works at all, but by trusting in Christ who alone provided salvation by His work on the cross. As believers we should be zealous for good works, but not to be saved, but to glorify God and by doing so we also build up our treasures in heaven.

 

[Dan_473]

So according to your logic you are always clean. What makes a person carrying a dead animal on their shoulders, covered in semen or menstrual discharges clean ? Can he just mentally believe that he is clean ? Can he say a word or prayer and be clean ? Does the uncleanness he has contaminated suddenly go away by itself ? Or does he actually have to wash himself ? You see how faith without works is dead faith, being alone ?

I think that when a person becomes a christian, the Spirit leads them to understand that they are always clean.

that same spirit also leads a person to want to help poor people.

so, it's not by any means faith without works.

 

[Dan_473]

You are SO wrong. The intent of the Torah is to Obey it as it says. What does it say about a mans heart condition when he Refuse to obey a strict commandment from God that Pig/Swine is totally forbidden to eat ? You see the defilement comes from the Heart before transgression has conceived through sin. Your interpretation of Jesus teaching unclean meats are fine to eat is Wrong! If Jesus did that, he would have been a sinner himself(And He did NO sin), for sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4), and He came to establish the law and teach it. And the law will stand as it is until heaven and earth pass (Matt 5:17-19). This proves that you are wrong and in transgression.

If any man teach you something other than the commandments in the Torah then he is a false teacher and a false prophet (Deut 13:3-4).

if you have set your mind to use a natural reading of lev 11, then of course there's nothing I can say that's going to change that mindset.

I believe the things of torah are grasped spiritually.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

I think that when a person becomes a christian, the Spirit leads them to understand that they are always clean.

that same spirit also leads a person to want to help poor people.

so, it's not by any means faith without works.

You see the problem is "I think", not what God think. If you were to come into my home in such a state, I would definitely not consider you clean. I am talking physically clean. You see God has rules for what you are to do in such instances. It is not a matter of heart condition but a matter of physically flat out unclean. The Spirit and the Law agree, seeing it is the same will of God. The Spirit will tell you that you are physically unclean and that you need to wash yourself and your clothes.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

How can you use the new testament to teach absolute obedience to the law in the torah?

Love God, love your neighbor, love yourself. This fulfills the entire law and prophets. Jesus said that.

Is Jesus a false teacher or not?

Because that is what the Gospel is all about, saving us from our Sins which is transgression of the Law (Matt 1:21, 1 Jn 3:4). I am not talking about how we receive Jesus Christ as our Saviour or how we are forgiven, I am talking about being Obedient to the Faith by Obeying the Words of Jesus Christ. If you love God and your neighbor and yourself then you are obedient to the commandments as this is what the law is all about. The Spirit will lead us to obedience to the Fathers commandments and will agree with them (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Alot of people need to have this revelation. Another gospel and another Jesus has been preached for 2000 years which teach you don't have to obey the commandments. This has created religious doctrine of men that seeks to filter out all the bible has to say about keeping the commandments in the Faith, and that doctrine is sometimes stronger than heroin and crack for some people to come out of. People have been brainwashed into thinking Paul taught against obedience to the commandments in the Faith of Jesus Christ, and that the law is done away with which simply is not true. Paul is trying to explain that we serve God in the Spirit and not in the old way of carnal sacrifice, and that the Israelites are are free from the curse the law brought upon them because of their disobedience in Deuteronomy 28 and other places. They were divorced from God in the past and free to marry again through Christ after he had died and resurrected. People are twisting the scriptures to their own destruction just like Peter warned about in 2 Peter 3:14-18.

We are to establish the Law and obey it and teach it to others (Matt 5:17-19, Rom 3:31).

 

[simplifiedtruth]

if you have set your mind to use a natural reading of lev 11, then of course there's nothing I can say that's going to change that mindset.

I believe the things of torah are grasped spiritually.

You are free to believe and do what ever you want. But your belief cannot be supported by the bible with sound doctrine.

 

[royalscot]

Grace does not justify you to continue to live in willful transgression(Mat 7:21-23). Grace is the divine influence upon the heart which draws you back to the Father, which leads you to repentance of your sins(Rom 2:4), which is transgression of the law(1 John 3:4).

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:3 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Now according to the verses above, are you walking as Jesus did (Jesus was obedient to the Father) ? Are you purifying yourself ? Has Jesus taken away the sins of your life (Transgression of the law) ? By breaking the law, are you Doing righteousness or unrighteousness ?

Matt 5:17-19, are you omitting the Fathers commandments and teaching others to do the same ?

These are serious questions you need to evaluate and look into what the text really say about it.

law of the land is not controlled by the bible, already addressed on a former post. logic can not connect to a lie . etc