What Paul taught other than romans 8:1 lol

hornetguy · Jun 5, 2016

Take two examples....

A "grace believer" that does (to the best of his flawed ability, of course) all the things Jesus taught us to do, but he's doing it because he has been saved...

versus... a believer that does (to the best of his flawed ability) all the things Jesus taught us to do, but does them out of fear of losing his salvation.....

Which believer is more in tune with what God tells us?

The fruits of both believers are the same... both are walking in the light... one is doing it out of fear, the other is doing it out of love....

again.... it's all about attitude. We don't do works TO be saved.... we cannot do enough good works to be saved. We do good works BECAUSE we are saved.

Attitude... Jesus gave us freedom from sin, and we respond by doing what He commanded us to do..

Angela53510 · Jun 5, 2016

Scriptureplz said:

This is really pulling the second verse out of context. I just read 1 John 1, 2 & 3 last night in my devotions. In context, John is not saying that we can NOT sin. You need to read this verses in context of what John has just written in the preceding verses. The public epistles, like 1 John, were written to be read aloud before the congregation. No one just pulled out one verse and declared it the verse that settles the whole issue.

For instance, this is how John starts the discussion on sin in 1 John.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1John 1;8-10

So obviously, John acknowledges that we can sin! BUT, the big difference is that WHEN we sin, we can confess our sins to the Father, who cleanses us from all unrighteousness!

In fact, verse 1 John 3:9 seems to directly contradict 1 John 1:10!! So we need to dig a bit deeper, instead of stopping with a single proof text.

Once again in chapter 2, John says the same basic thing - we should NOT sin, but if we do, we have an advocate with the Father. Jesus will stand in for our sin. But John is not saying we are sinless or perfect.

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." 1 John 2:1-6

So let's look at 1 John 3:9 in a more accurate translation, which better reflects the grammar in this verse and with the surrounding verses.

"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:4-10

Starting in verse 4, we have the phrase "practice of sinning." In Greek, the word ποιῶν or poion, is a present active participle. It communicates the idea, of "doing, continuing, practicing" it is substantive and means "the one practicing."

Verse 6, it says "who abides in him" using and present active participle as a substantive. It means "remaining" which indicates a continual action. So these words point out that we have a choice between "practicing sin" or "continually abiding" in Christ. By abiding in Christ, we are better able to avoid the practice of sin! Although as John points out in the earlier verses, there are times when we will sin, and we will need to confess it! John, (and Paul, too!) doEs not believe in sinless perfection!

And getting back to verse 9, the verse starts with: "born of God." In Greek, this is γεγεννημένος or gegennamenos. This is a perfect passive participle, meaning "to be born." Perfect marks not only a single act of birth, but the continuous presence of its efficacy. The verse indicates the abiding influence of His seed within everyone who is born of God, as that which enables John to affirm without fear of contradiction, that one cannot go on living in sin. Indeed, "if he should continue to sin, it would indicate he has never been born again!"*

So the question is, does 1 John 3:9 indicate an absolute prohibition against all sin, or a prohibition against habitual sin? The tenses of the verb in this passage make it obvious that John, who has already talked about the remediation for sin - confession, means that John is saying that habitual sin is the problem.

Oh wait, this was supposed to be about the writings of Paul? Well, since Paul John, James and the other writers of the New Testament were under the same inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so Paul may add to the theological defintion of sin, particularly in Romans 7, but he does not contradict either John or James. In fact, it is interesting that the title of this thread is about Romans 8:1, which is the next point of Paul's after he writes about our sinful flesh.

*The New Exegetical and Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament - Cleon Rogers Jr. and Cleon Rogers III. Pgs 595-596

followjesus · Jun 5, 2016

posthuman said:

exactly it doesn't contradict when it is understood. yeah again all by Grace. Grace is not understood and is mistaught as the scripture warns several times was already happening in the church. The claim of the new grace misteaching is that "I'm saved no matter what I do" I am the righteousness of God" so to look at your comment among the lines of this false doctrine is pretty evident. No need to even confess sin, repentance? why? because I'm already righteous regardless of my behavior.

I'm sorry to say, but not everyone will be saved from the second death. again, Gods word makes it clear. Those who are faithful and endure will be saved. those who prophecy in His name and drive out demons in his name, obviously they believe in his name if they are doing these things in His name. yet what does the King say to those who refused to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, care for the poor? away from me you evil doers, I never knew you. In other words, those who said Lord Lord of Jesus yet did not do what He said to do. and what is their fate?

the same as the lazy servant who will be torn to pieces. Demons know Jesus authority that's why they call out to Him in the gospel " son of God, what do you want with us?" Just knowing who Jesus is does not save anyone. Trusting Him, Having faith in Him is what saves us. Grace is shown on the Cross, what more does man need that What God has given in His Son? the spirit is offered of honliness that enables man to live as children of God. To accept His suffering on our behalf and run right back into the burning building will not lead to salvation.

No one is really judging another, if they try, they are only judging themselves. There is one Judge of mankind who will sit on the throne and who every man will give their own account to. He is the one who gives mercy, But His mercy isn't forced upon mankind its a gift offered to those who choose it. and this gift includes freedom, not freedom to sin, but freedom from the bonds of sin that the law could not free mankind from.

Romans 8:1-12because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

this is the context for romans 8:1. notice v 12 and 13 if you live one way you will die, if however by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body you will live. paul taught the same things Jesus taught, different words same message. sin has been condemned, if we follow sin we will share in its condemnation, if we "crucify the misdeeds of the body" we will live. The word is the Judge no one else.

Angela53510 · Jun 5, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I also agree that there is a lot of Gnosticism going on in this thread. When I read that there is a division between the Spirit and the flesh, that is the essence of Gnosticism. God gave us these human bodies at creation, he told us to live, and to obey him. There is no concept in Hebrew thought or literature that there is this dichotomy between the spirit and the flesh.

In fact, although it is hypothesized that Galatians might have been written partly to counter some sort of proto-Gnosticism, in fact, there is no widespread evidence of Gnosticism until the 2nd century AD. So in no way we're the New Testament writers influenced by this heretical sect. But, the New Age movement is almost totally gnostic, and it has made huge inroads in our society.

Paul wrote in Romans 7 about sinful flesh and our spirit. But in no way did he divide them up. In fact, the body was never maligned as evil in either the New Testament or the Old Testament. And the hope of the New Testament as a church, was the return of Christ, and the resurrection of the body - not escaping sin on this earth, but rather, following Christ, confessing our sins, and looking forward to Christ ruling and reigning in his flesh, over our sanctified and resurrected flesh.

"It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever.43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength.44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.45 The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit.46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later.47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven.48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man.49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man." 1 Cor. 15:42-49

Do these last verses claim that we are resurrected in spiritual bodies, only? Are our "heavenly bodies" spiritual only? Again, context and reading on in the chapter tell us more about our bodies.

".. those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled:" 1 Cor. 15:52b-54

This is the gospel. Not that we will escape our bodies, in some kind of spiritual mist, but rather than our sinful bodies of flesh, will become immortal bodies!

(And never that our spirit is separate from our flesh, and is perfect at justification, but rather than the Holy Spirit sanctifies our body and soul, until Jesus returns and we receive immortal bodies, which is glorification.)

Grace777x70 · Jun 5, 2016

No where do I see where Paul said that we lose our salvation because of sin especially if one reads 1 Corinthians in context.

This verse here in 1 John 5:18 says the same thing basically as 1 John 3:9...it says that the one born of God cannot sin. I don't believe the new creation in Christ can sin as 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 speaks about.

It is definitely in the present tense which means "doing a sin now". Present tense is always present tense. Whether it is one sin or a thousand sins. I don't believe the new creation in Christ where Christ dwells can be contaminated or touched by sin.

What happens to our spirit where Christ is joined as one with us when we sin if the theory that sin can reach our new man in Christ - which has been created in righteousness and holiness. Do we go in and out of righteousness because it is NOT our righteousness but Christ's alone?

Let's say we sinned ( and whatsoever is not of faith is sin so this could mean any type of sin ) and then we die in a car crash just after we got angry at someone and called them a name ( which Jesus says is a sin in Matt 5:22 ) - we have lost righteousness and thus not able to go to heaven?

There are so many problems when you really stop to ponder the ramifications with the theory that we lose our righteousness because sin touches the inner man in Christ.

We can sin by yielding our members in our flesh if we yield to it and we are responsible with what we do in our bodies.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Jesus is keeping us from the evil one in our new creation in Christ.

followjesus · Jun 5, 2016

hornetguy said:

exactly, but would you say that the warnings throughout Gods word are there by mistake? we do obey because of what Jesus did for us, even what He continues to do for us, But to scorn the word obey as if its a work of law, or trying to be saved by flesh lol is not at all in line with Gods word. a person saved by Grace will love the obedience of God, will embrace it. will see the word obey as it was always intended to be, not an oppression, but a gift to safeguard Life.

Fear of hell is a real thing, people should be afraid of Hell once a person is there, there is no getting out. to ignore these scriptural truths is ignoring the same word that sounds gracious. God is not willing that anyone is lost, Hence, the many, many warnings to obey so that we don't end up where the disobedient end up. I nor any person should be willing to ignore Gods design. part of His design in the new and old testament is to warn for our good so that we do understand that repentance and obedience are a part of salvation. to preach grace, and not obedience is a distortion of Gods word. It says what it says, how it says it for a good reason. its Gods design and needs no ommital, or revolution, no adjustment. The Bible clearly warns of Hell as a real place of torment and everlasting punishment does it not? you obviously know the scriptures. so with those being there, should they never be spoken so we can all feel as if were approved in disobedience? wouldn't God have just not ever caused them to be placed in the new testament if that was the case? warnings of Hell are not welcome, but they are a good thing. Fear and reverence a good thing to remind of obedience to Jesus, because of Grace that provided all we need for all things. Gods words is perfect we don't need to ignore or omit the things people don't want to hear. Mans nature is opposed to Gods.

followjesus · Jun 5, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

No where do I see where Paul said that we lose our salvation because of sin especially if one reads 1 Corinthians in context.

This verse here in 1 John 5:18 says the same thing basically as 1 John 3:9...it says that the one born of God cannot sin. I don't believe the new creation in Christ can sin as 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 speaks about.

It is definitely in the present tense which means "doing a sin now". Present tense is always present tense. Whether it is one sin or a thousand sins. I don't believe the new creation in Christ where Christ dwells can be contaminated or touched by sin.

What happens to our spirit where Christ is joined as one with us when we sin if the theory that sin can reach our new man in Christ - which has been created in righteousness and holiness. Do we go in and out of righteousness because it is NOT our righteousness but Christ's alone?

Let's say we sinned ( and whatsoever is not of faith is sin so this could mean any type of sin ) and then we die in a car crash just after we got angry at someone and called them a name ( which Jesus says is a sin in Matt 5:22 ) - we have lost righteousness and thus not able to go to heaven?

There are so many problems when you really stop to ponder the ramifications with the theory that we lose our righteousness because sin touches the inner man in Christ.

We can sin by yielding our members in our flesh if we yield to it and we are responsible with what we do in our bodies.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Jesus is keeping us from the evil one in our new creation in Christ.

okay so what about a person whop is lying, commiting adultery, lusting, serving greed and money, refusing to help the poor ect. if they are doing these things and saying I'm a new creation. is that person sinning? that's my question to you. Is the adulterer who is saying I'm a new creation I believe in Jesus finished work, is that person safe even though they continue to cheat on their wife?

pretty simple question

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 5, 2016

hornetguy said:

Take two examples....

A "grace believer" that does (to the best of his flawed ability, of course) all the things Jesus taught us to do, but he's doing it because he has been saved...

versus... a believer that does (to the best of his flawed ability) all the things Jesus taught us to do, but does them out of fear of losing his salvation.....

Which believer is more in tune with what God tells us?

The fruits of both believers are the same... both are walking in the light... one is doing it out of fear, the other is doing it out of love....

again.... it's all about attitude. We don't do works TO be saved.... we cannot do enough good works to be saved. We do good works BECAUSE we are saved.

Attitude... Jesus gave us freedom from sin, and we respond by doing what He commanded us to do..

You dodged the issue, but that's OK because I really don't care. Nevertheless, fear is a very good motivator. Rid yourself of the fear of GOD and you've rid yourself of the holy spirit.

followjesus · Jun 5, 2016

crossnote said:

amen crossnote, you touched on the only solution there is in the debate that goes on since the new testament times. Grace + obedience neither doctrine omitting the other. they are one message. there is one side, Jesus side. grace needs to be preached as well as obedience. and both Have to be accepted in order to be in Christ. rather than believing Grace requires no commitment to obey, or thinking we obey from the old man. yet, the words "self controlled" "rid yourselves" ....shows also that we put forth effort of ourselves because of the acceptance of the Gift that is Grace in its full provision and truth.

Grace777x70 · Jun 5, 2016

followjesus said:

People can say what ever they want but only God knows their heart. People who do sin are sinning for sure. Whatsoever is of faith is a sin James said. So, if we do things and not have faith in doing it - we are sinning...is this sin worse then any other sin?

Either we are born again and saved for ever in Christ or we are not. Either we believe Jesus or we don't. The only sin that cannot be forgiven is the sin of rejecting Jesus as Savior.

Sin is destructive and it distorts our view of God of ourselves and others. It will destroy us those we love and it a bad witness for the Lord.

Grace teaches how to live godly in this present world. We need to hear about the grace of Christ as it is the only thing that has power to effect a change in people. We need to teach we have an exchanged life now and we do not have a life apart from Christ. Our life is hidden in Christ in God.

You are familiar...weren't you on CC last week as jasonj?

followjesus · Jun 5, 2016

followjesus said:

lol no actually you dodged the issue. simple question man to man. if a man says I'm a new creation but is living as the old, is He alright? is He "saved" I have read your scriptures several times and watched you tell people what "they really " mean. I'm asking a question plain and simple. if an adulterer, liar, thief. says I believe in Jesus, I'm a new creation, yet He continues on in His sinful behavior. is there a need for repentance? or does grace cover His sinful life as well and he can freely go on as Hie wants to ?

sorry haha wrong comment HRFD.

John146 · Jun 5, 2016

followjesus said:

Sounds like your version of salvation is about I,I,I and me,me,me instead of 100% about the shed blood of Jesus Christ...just saying.

followjesus · Jun 5, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

sure was, liked followjesus better as a name. and so is your answer then that a person who continues in adultery, thievery ect they are still an inheritant of Gods kingdom???? that's how I'm reading your answer. and if that is so How do you ignore what paul writes in the same books about the way a person lives having a direct impact on whether they will or not? is only parts of pauls writings relevant because they don't go with the doctrine or?

followjesus · Jun 5, 2016

John146 said:

probly should check your hearing. Its about obeyoing Jesus because He died to give us the means to do so. to CHOOSE life or death. before Him we had no choice we were already dead. Grace Gave us His spirit by Grace in order that we now are able to choose to obey. so yeah, some towns give free hearing tests. there are a thousand ways to avoid obedience. But its scripture. so really, its more about Gods way of salvation which is what matters. cant serve sin and claim salvation in Christ. " do you not know that when you offer yourselves as slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey? whether slaves to opbedience leading to righteousness, or sin which leads to death?" its not about what we say or think, its about faith. the kind that moves and acts. its about the choice to meet Gods will or follow the other path. He has made it readily available. God is not ever going to force anyone to Choose Him......Free will belongs to mankind

Grace777x70 · Jun 5, 2016

Paul told the Corinthians who they were in Christ..then corrected their behavior...he didn't say you were all unsaved now...

..he told them who they were in Christ..saints..they have His righteousness, holiness..etc.

These are the very same people that were causing divisions and strife amongst each other. Men going to have sex with the temple prostitutes, believers taking each other to court, people getting drunk at Communion..etc. Paul called them carnal Christians and yet at the same time called them "saints" - that they have the righteousness of God, that they were complete in Him, that they had the mind of Christ, that they were holy...etc...that Christ was confirmed as being in them.

Then Paul goes on to say in verse 8 " who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Paul gives them their true identity in Christ then goes on to describe what this true life in Christ will look like. Paul says later on to "Awake to righteousness and sin not" This is a call to see who you are in Christ and in seeing this - sin will fall off of us like dead leaves off a tree.

1 Corinthians 1:1-9 (NASB)

[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

[SUP]4 [/SUP] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,

[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

[SUP]8 [/SUP] who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

[SUP]31 [/SUP] so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

crossnote · Jun 5, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

They are supposed to be a reflection of Christ, true. But I hope you don't castigate the girl who is struggling with her sexual purity by calling her a harlot.

Ahwatukee · Jun 5, 2016

Testing, testing testing

followjesus · Jun 5, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

this kind of response is why I pretty much ignore your input anymore. you are stuck deeply in a false doctrine that has no answers to anything. you claim pauls authority just like jp , yet only part of pauls teaching applies because of the doctrines fallacy. I pray for you daily that your eyes will open friend. But until that day I cant partner with you, the doctrine you try so hard to preach is death for those who will buy into it, ill have no part in it. that's my decision on this matter, been trying to get through to you for months, for the sake of peace I'm just gonna get back to avoiding the nonsense of your answers.

Paul wrote what He wrote, to keep taking things out of context will never help. please get out of the princism and look at the whole of pauls message. see the obedience, see the truth of whats there, or continue with your own brand of salvation I know I cant reach you, I pray someone else will. take care Bruce, God Loves you

crossnote · Jun 5, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

your thread was posted, then it disappeared

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 5, 2016

Angela53510 said:

I also agree that there is a lot of Gnosticism going on in this thread. When I read that there is a division between the Spirit and the flesh, that is the essence of Gnosticism. God gave us these human bodies at creation, he told us to live, and to obey him. There is no concept in Hebrew thought or literature that there is this dichotomy between the spirit and the flesh.

In fact, although it is hypothesized that Galatians might have been written partly to counter some sort of proto-Gnosticism, in fact, there is no widespread evidence of Gnosticism until the 2nd century AD. So in no way we're the New Testament writers influenced by this heretical sect. But, the New Age movement is almost totally gnostic, and it has made huge inroads in our society.

IMO 1 John clearly refutes several gnostic errors (or proto-gnostic, as you call it).

btw, nice post. Glad to see that someone else also sees it.

What Paul taught other than romans 8:1 lol

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