Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[RickyZ]

Seriously, people, argue all you want about whether they are for today or not, but if you are of the not side DO NOT say anyone on the other side has a demon. If you want to argue that there are a whoooole bunch of falsehoods out there I'm right behind you. But if you're going to say it's all, 100%, falsehoods, I'm just gonna step back a ways before the lightning bolt strikes. You tread incredibly dangerous ground when you say all manifestations of the gifts are of demons. Incredibly dangerous.

 

[Amellinialman]

I do not commit blasphemy. I condemn the false teachers that make a mockery of God's word. I am not calling you a false teacher so why do you condemn me. I have the gift of discernment. If God so chooses any gift it His perogative. I am just commenting on what I see and hear these so-called preachers teach. I do this with meekness and respect.

 

[Amellinialman]

You commit the fallacy of taking me out context and injecting words I did not say. Let us be clear. Kenneth Copeland is a false prophet. He says Jesus took on the nature of satan on the Cross. Now that blaspemy.

 

[popeye]

The gift of tongues are not normative. The issue is what are tongues today that have ceased. How do you interpret the manner of tongues that have ceased or not ceased. Yes, I am a cessationist. No one has given me a rational argument. And by the way I am quite familiar with 1Cor.12, 13 and 14. The issue of cessation is directly related to their interpretation. Jesus warned those who continually seek a sign.

Rational is not the issue,because you do not incorporate the entirety of the word.

lets see if the word testifies against you;

1cor 13;8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

See that? You guys are oblivious because your doctrine blinds you.

Paul just told us that "THEN shall I know"

He says NOW I KNOW IN PART,BUT THEN I WILL KNOW AS I AM KNOWN.

and you guys spin the truth into "oh that which is perfect is the bible. when the bible comes,tongues and all God's power ceases." What a load of hogwash
When heaven comes the gifts cease. They are not needed in heaven.
You are now shown the word of God testifies absolutely against you.

 

[popeye]

How does a virgin remain set apart and undefiled?
By the amount of oil they have?
Because doesn't that then imply that we can, by our own doings build up our stature (our "Oil") in CHRIST JESUS?

I am not sure I am in agreement to this and I am also not sure if I am understanding correctly.

It says all 10 were virgins. A virgin is clean,pure set apart and undefiled. That is just the simple truth.

They are by depiction in the spirit saved or righteous.

Oil is a totally separate issue.

 

[popeye]

Please give more than just telling me your opinion. I stand on the Word of God. The issue is the "the interpretation of tongues." it is not my opinion because I do not give opinions. Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Fred Price, T.D. Jakes, Marilynn Hicky, Joyce Meyers, Kenneth Hagin, Oral Roberts, Essek W. Kenyon, and Phineas P. Quimby and others are all false teachers who teach a doctrine of demons. These pastors all teach a form of charismatic doctrine. Beware of wolves in sheep clothing!

I know for a fact those people you list are christians. Flawed like all of us,but carriers of the HS.

Now you can say they are poor examples,or that they abuse the gifts,but no,you carry it to a whole new level and play the demonic card.

mark 3;24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

See that? we have a guarantee from heaven that satan can not answer prayer. And even further,that satan does not cast out satan.

You are out of your league friend. Get yourself a good bible and get away from those false heretics that attack the people of God.

Jesus showed you the fruit of calling the HS satan.

 

[popeye]

You commit the fallacy of taking me out context and injecting words I did not say. Let us be clear. Kenneth Copeland is a false prophet. He says Jesus took on the nature of satan on the Cross. Now that blaspemy.

No,you just incorporate a partial bible. So a bible study is what reveals you are unlearned as are your teachers.

 

[popeye]

I do not commit blasphemy. I condemn the false teachers that make a mockery of God's word. I am not calling you a false teacher so why do you condemn me. I have the gift of discernment. If God so chooses any gift it His perogative. I am just commenting on what I see and hear these so-called preachers teach. I do this with meekness and respect.

I think God lead you here,and he wants you to see like Paul,that you are fighting God.

I also think there is a door opened to you to get away from those teachers,repent,and get filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[VCO]

[h=2]Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?[/h]open thread for discussion on this topic

While I do not believe the modern day so-called Charismatic gifts even come close to what the Apostles actually did; I am equally convinced that it is a subject that should not be debated in our forum because it serves the work of the Devil. IT HAS A PROVEN TRACK RECORD OF STIRRING UP DISSENSION AND NOT BROTHERLY LOVE.

Proverbs 6:16-19 (NIV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] a false witness who pours out lies and
(#7) a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Proverbs 10:12 (NIV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.

Proverbs 15:18 (NIV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a quarrel.

Titus 3:9 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

Over the decades since I was Born Again in 1977, I have been roped into this same so-called discussion NUMEROUS TIMES, in person, on the phone, in letters, and since I bought my first computer in 1995, several times online. Every single one, while started with good intentions, ended up in a heated ARGUMENT. My experiences have taught me that this subject should NOT be discussed between Charismatics and Non-Charismatics, BECAUSE IT DOES NOT PROMOTE BROTHERLY LOVE.

My opinion is we should follow the same advise Paul gave to those who wanted to ARGUE about the Law, and those who wanted to ARGUE about Keeping the Sabbath.

Romans 14:5-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; . . .

 

[simplifiedtruth]

I know for a fact those people you list are christians. Flawed like all of us,but carriers of the HS.

Now you can say they are poor examples,or that they abuse the gifts,but no,you carry it to a whole new level and play the demonic card.

mark 3;24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

See that? we have a guarantee from heaven that satan can not answer prayer. And even further,that satan does not cast out satan.

You are out of your league friend. Get yourself a good bible and get away from those false heretics that attack the people of God.

Jesus showed you the fruit of calling the HS satan.

It is easy to separate to be honest:

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

"By their fruit you shall know them". The method of weeding out the false prophets who come in sheep clothing is to see if they are teaching obedience to the Law of God.

Most of these people don't even have the Holy Spirit but are stage playing.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

The gifts tend not to gel with most people until they become a recipient of a gift work. I accepted the old So. Baptist mentality too, until charismatic hands were laid on me, healed, again delivered, again, again....That happened only after showing up where practiced, giving it a chance to work in my own life.

Before the cross, Jesus was accused of doing miracles with the help of demons. After the cross, all through the account of Acts, disciples continued doing what Jesus did, what Jesus said they would be doing. There have been times when not much was reported, certainly during centuries when Church leaders executed people who had a Bible, executing the first Bible publisher. It wasn't IS doing that.

What we have mostly now is a continuation of the opinions of the Jews against the works of Jesus. No change.

 

[CS1]

Seriously, people, argue all you want about whether they are for today or not, but if you are of the not side DO NOT say anyone on the other side has a demon. If you want to argue that there are a whoooole bunch of falsehoods out there I'm right behind you. But if you're going to say it's all, 100%, falsehoods, I'm just gonna step back a ways before the lightning bolt strikes. You tread incredibly dangerous ground when you say all manifestations of the gifts are of demons. Incredibly dangerous.

you make a very good point .

this is what happens when two side of the same topic do not agree and try to force the point they believe to be right by interjecting they are blaspheming. But there are those who have studied and can see that there are those who abuse the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and those who do not believe the gifts are for today. The first I think is far more damaging because it provides fuel for the later. BUT The Bible is clear The Holy Spirit is with us today and IF the Same Holy Spirit can and does provide " the Gift of Discernment " then why would HE not provide all of them? and If the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased then how is it one can claim to have the " Gift " of Discernment if they are no longer for today ?

There is a reason why 1 cor chapter 12, 13, 14 Call the the Gifts of the Holy Spirit

 

[JaumeJ]

I could elaborate on whatI have witnessed and what I have personally experienced, but this will do no good for non-believers and/scoffers.

Therefore my response to the OP title is simply and rotundly yes!

 

[CS1]

I could elaborate on whatI have witnessed and what I have personally experienced, but this will do no good for non-believers and/scoffers.

Therefore my response to the OP title is simply and rotundly yes!

you are titled to your opinion

 

[wincam]

you are titled to your opinion

so what is your opinion at Jn.14:17 correctly interpreted - wincam

 

[JaumeJ]

That is very kind of you young man. May God bless you always.

you are titled to your opinion

 

[CS1]

so what is your opinion at Jn.14:17 correctly interpreted - wincam

I think John 14:17 should be seen in the context of the entire chapter. and also with other parallel scriptures example Jhn chapter 16.

 

[notuptome]

Misuse of tongues is indeed demonic. Calling bonafide use demonic is unforgiveable. Disagree if you have to, but as Paul says do not forbid them (1 Cor. 14:39) and do not attribute them to satan (you know those references).

I too pray for your soul, for I feel fearful of the consequences you are bringing upon it.

So please show us what is genuine tongues? I have asked for you to show me from the scriptures what they are and no one has endeavored to tell me and to say that the tongues of Acts are the tongues they practice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

That is a fair assessment of what occurred at Pentecost. God does the work through vessels of His choosing.

Seeking, desiring, and coveting the gifts means keeping oneself clean before the Lord and able to be fitted to His use.

Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes as he gives us the desires of His heart they do become ours.

Speaks through men but not in respect to of . Hearing the interpretation (prophecy) is the gift..

Seeing the sign for the rebellious. Sign without a wonder the faith principle never for the believer . Two fold. Sign for those who believe not, the hearing of faith.The herring of faith God's working in us for those who then could believe God (not hear Peter and believe him.

Two kinds of faith of the things of men, and of God faith the things of God . Faith works two ways. The things of men seen must be distinguished from those of God who is not seen. His faith towards working us in us the free gift, and our towards Him, the amen.

 

[notuptome]

Roger, I and many others have tried patiently and repeatedly to show you scripture. You are unwilling to listen and consider. So, would parading Gods word in front of you for the umpteenth time really make any difference? Methinks not. You're not going to listen and consider so why waste my time anymore?

But I will answer one thing... why would I want the so-called ceased gifts.

Because I want to speak in prayer over things I don't know about, but God does

Because we see thru the glass darkly at this time, and additional knowledge and wisdom are very helpful things

and of course

BECAUSE THE BIBLE TELLS US TO DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Question is, why do you want to exclude yourself from them?

Roger, I understand your skepticism, there's a LOT of falsehoods out there. And Paul does tell us that we should not do it rather than do it wrong. If you wish to abstain for those reasons, more power to you.

But time after time after time after time after time, done right they produce results that glorify God and edify others.

Why do you not want that?

It's still all about you isn't it? If tongues are a gift of the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit that gives them severally as He willeth then there is no possible way to resist the gifts.

You do not want to understand the scripture where it says we look through the glass darkly but then we will see face to face. This is talking of how the OT which they and was shadowy and the NT which was not yet fully given would make it so we could see as God wants us to see the mysteries of the faith and purpose of Gods will.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

For the cause of Christ
Roger