layers in the unforgiving Debtor??

followjesus · Jun 8, 2016

what does Jesus say about it? Grace is like you owed everything you couldn't pay in the beginning of the parable, your blessed already because of that Grace. BUT. Now that you have been set free from that debt and its punishment ( like in the parable) Now you are supposed to go learn Jesus and take HIS YOKE upon you. meaning simply learn what He is teaching and accept it as truth. as you do this obedience will come because your faith is in Jesus and His things.

He says this john 14 9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[SUP]c[/SUP] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

he teaches much more on this if you read through chapter 15 great stuff about the spirit, obedience, and answers to prayer. Jesus words are all true !!! crack open the Word and BELIEVE the rest is gggrrraaavvvyyyy

followjesus · Jun 8, 2016

John146 said:

That's a dangerous road to go down. I believe Jesus meant what He said and said what He meant. We have to let the Bible be as honest to us as possible, take it literally unless it tells you not to.

1. Under the law - eye for an eye
2. Kingdom of Heaven - turn the other cheek (Christ is ruling with a rod of iron, he'll take care of the wrong doer)
3. Church Age - if at all possible, live peaceably with one another (turn the other cheek if that restores peace, if not, do what you can do to restore peace, self defense)

No reason to spritualize any of these, for they are doctrine taught by the Lord in different dispensations as circumstances change.

well, like I said man I'm already on the path and lovin the truth of it so

God bless tho I'm done arguing doctrines with yall Peace

PilgrimPassingThru · Jun 8, 2016

followjesus said:

Im not typically Bro lol

But you can grab other things and pull them in and make them work

And to show the same in true judgment

Zach 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,

**Execute** true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:

In light of the above

Prov 21:7 **The robbery of** the wicked shall destroy them; because they refuse **to do** judgment.

Same shown below

Mat 18:33 Shouldest thou **also**have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

The servant in the parable had received first (mercy) that could make his withholding as "robbery" when it coming to paying that forward.

Psalm 37:21 The wicked **borroweth**, and payeth not **again**: but the righteous **sheweth mercy**,and giveth.

After we receive such mercy the Lord in that parable shows us to be merciful as our heavenly Father is merciful, and we pray saying,

Mat 6:12 And Forgive us our debts,**as ** we forgive our debtors. (There is that "as" thing in there)

That is was what He was angry about, the forgiven servant showing no mercy and here comes judgment without mercy that hath showed no mercy

Mat 8:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, **till** he should pay all that was due unto him.

Then Jeus says (to his disciples)

Mat 18:35 So Likewise shall my Heavenly Father **do also** unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their tresspasses (James 2:13, 1 Cr 11:32)

There are other verses that bring this together some more but heres a few more you can see the concept, at least

garee · Jun 8, 2016

.

Principles in the scripture are laws, not theories of men.

I would disagree with your statement; “it has nothing to do with law.” .The phrase; I desire mercy, not sacrifice... is a law that must be obeyed.

I think of Romans 12. That in view of the fact he has had mercy on us we therefore can because of His mercy offer our bodies by which we bring His gospel as His law of faith (the unseen working of God) into the world .

Interestingly in Chapter r 13 which is a continuation of 12 . He lovingly commands us; to let no debt remain outstanding . except for the continuing debt to love one another .It is the one debt we can never say; it is finished .
It would be like Christ saying; he is finished with us each time we deny Him in unbelief when we do sin

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
.
If we do not forgive men of their trespasses, the royal law pertaining to a kingdom of Priest(us) how could we reckon he will forgive us?
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

followjesus · Jun 8, 2016

PilgrimPassingThru said:

Im not typically Bro lol

But you can grab other things and pull them in and make them work

And to show the same in true judgment

Zach 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,

**Execute** true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:

In light of the above

Prov 21:7 **The robbery of** the wicked shall destroy them; because they refuse **to do** judgment.

Same shown below

Mat 18:33 Shouldest thou **also**have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

The servant in the parable had received first (mercy) that could make his withholding as "robbery" when it coming to paying that forward.

Psalm 37:21 The wicked **borroweth**, and payeth not **again**: but the righteous **sheweth mercy**,and giveth.

After we receive such mercy the Lord in that parable shows us to be merciful as our heavenly Father is merciful, and we pray saying,

Mat 6:12 And Forgive us our debts,**as ** we forgive our debtors. (There is that "as" thing in there)

That is was what He was angry about, the forgiven servant showing no mercy and here comes judgment without mercy that hath showed no mercy

Mat 8:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, **till** he should pay all that was due unto him.

Then Jeus says (to his disciples)

Mat 18:35 So Likewise shall my Heavenly Father **do also** unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their tresspasses (James 2:13, 1 Cr 11:32)

There are other verses that bring this together some more but heres a few more you can see the concept, at least

well somehow I get yer meaning ALWAYS, I suppose its that spirit that dwells in us !!! God is really reeeaaallly reallllllllyyyyy Great to us poor debt ees lol Hes definitely worth our full commitment in faith ! see what I meant by you ale=ways add to things and neve negate whats alredy there? that is NOT typical ur s=correct a mundo !! God Loves you deeply and without measure my 2nd sleeper is finally kikn in talk soon and you are appreciated !!!

followjesus · Jun 8, 2016

garee said:

.

Principles in the scripture are laws, not theories of men.

I would disagree with your statement; “it has nothing to do with law.” .The phrase; I desire mercy, not sacrifice... is a law that must be obeyed.

I think of Romans 12. That in view of the fact he has had mercy on us we therefore can because of His mercy offer our bodies by which we bring His gospel as His law of faith (the unseen working of God) into the world .

Interestingly in Chapter r 13 which is a continuation of 12 . He lovingly commands us; to let no debt remain outstanding . except for the continuing debt to love one another .It is the one debt we can never say; it is finished .
It would be like Christ saying; he is finished with us each time we deny Him in unbelief when we do sin

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
.
If we do not forgive men of their trespasses, the royal law pertaining to a kingdom of Priest(us) how could we reckon he will forgive us?
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

well peeps are free to disagree with me anyday

we all gotta find our way, I just share Cause I know that JESUS is the way and it has worked well for me just doing what He says

but that's Just myself. God bless I gotta run

PilgrimPassingThru · Jun 8, 2016

followjesus said:

He is absolultely great Amen Bro, you are very much appreciated also, so dont ever skip town without telling us again.

Good thread, great idea, God richly bless you in Christ, get some sleep

reneweddaybyday · Jun 8, 2016

Jesus speaks of the "unforgiving Debtor" in response to a question by Peter.

In vs 21, Peter asks Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Jesus' reply in vs 22 is I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

In comparing the 10,000 talents of vs 24 to the 100 pence of vs 28, the servant who owed the 10,000 talents would never be able to pay off the debt (even though he insisted in vs 26 that he could).

On the other hand, the fellowservant who owed 100 pence and asked for time to repay (vs 29) the fellowservant would be able to repay the amount. It was not an astronomical amount.

The issue is forgiveness when someone sins against us. That was Peter's question.

Jesus is telling Peter that his question concerning forgiving someone 7 times is like the servant who would not forgive the fellowservant who owed 100 pence. It is a small amount. That is nothing compared to the 10,000 talents the servant had been forgiven.

Just as the King has forgiven us countless times (70 x 7), we should remember all the times we have been forgiven and then forgive others (our fellowservants). Jesus' point is that we are to forgive more times than a person sins against us --- innumerable times (or 70 x 7).

I thought of these verses when reading through this thread:

Ephesians 4:31-32 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

followjesus · Jun 8, 2016

reneweddaybyday said:

yep that's always as I said been how I took it also, BUT there is also the word of warning against NOT forgiving, its not an option in The kingdom. it goes with all His teachings of the kingdom and forgiveness. I'm always reminded of this verse with this parable

matthew 6:14-15 " For if you forgive others when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

and also the Lords Prayer " forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us"

The thing is with my own belief, is Jesus says plainly. If we do not forgive, having already received the great forgiveness of our debt, we have no forgiveness. A clear condition, and it absolutely ties to the rest of the Kingdom principles taught By the Lord Jesus Christ, before and also after the "cross" forgiveness is not an option for Christians as this parable clearly sets plainly before mankind. the flawed thinking is to omit the condition upon us who are of the kingdom, to do so, rewuires omittal of The Lords Word, Himself.

this thinking leads to constant " reasoning" that Jesus words don't apply in favor of eternal security without condition. Not at all what Jesus Christ teaches. so, then it requires ommital, and denial of His truth to remove the parts He says are required, and make them an option. Id rather know if I don't forgive, I have no forgiveness but wrath in my future so that I can begin forgiving. this also, is why "fear" is not supposed to be omitted. that fear serves to teach us righteousness, and is is no less true than what we want to see.

forgiveness like all things in CHRIST is not an option. it is all based upon this one principle " by the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Judge not, you will not be judged, be merciful, and you will receive mercy, Give and it will be given to you"

its not as if, were forgiven and one day well get around to forgiving others, its forgive and you WILL be forgiven, do not forgive and you WILL NOT be forgiven. Jesus is always correct, His words always apply. before the cross and after, when He needs to be omitted, the doctrines are not correct. we can think well his words only applied before the cross but the last thing He said on earth after the resurrection just before being taken to Heaven was the great commission

matther 28 :18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”"

this statement again, mnust be omitted because it validates His teachings to ALL NATIONS says to the apostles go make disciples, TEACHING THEM TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU.

there is no basis for omitting Jesus teachings or thinking someone else takes authority over the Kings declaration. this is the true basis and foundation of all that Came for the Church.

Fear ? is also in accompaniment of the holy spirit.

acts 9:31 "Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers."

1 peter 1:17 "Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear."

peter says this again 2 times in 1 peter and 2 peter.

embracing the fear taught in Gods word is a great thing that keeps us on the path. the fear is learned through parables and teachings like this, that are not for ommital

reneweddaybyday · Jun 9, 2016

followjesus said:

When you say

"this thinking leads to constant " reasoning" that Jesus words don't apply in favor of eternal security without condition"

and

"Id rather know if I don't forgive, I have no forgiveness but wrath in my future so that I can begin forgiving"

Is it your assertion that salvation is dependent upon our forgiving others?

If so, that belief is in complete contradiction to Scripture which indicates salvation is a gift from God not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8).

Please clarify. Thank you.

followjesus · Jun 10, 2016

reneweddaybyday said:

you kind of answered your own question, that's what I mean by ommital of Jesus words.

matthew 6:9-15 Jesus Christ the Lords words, not mine....

"“This, then, is how you should pray:“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one. ’

For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.BUT
if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will NOT forgive your sins."

ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

paul is saying we aren't saved by works of the Law of moses, that's the confusion. forgiving someone is not a law in moses Law. Its what Jesus commands.

it is absolutely the condition in Christ, His words make it very clear, notice verse 14-15 " if you forgive others when they sin, your father will forgive you, IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE OTHER PEOPLE YOUR FATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE YOUR SINS.'

that's one example of why unconditional forgiveness, needs to omit what Jesus makes very clear. or again read tha parable of the unforgiving Debtor, taught By Jesus Christ.

matthew 18:21-35"
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[SUP]g[/SUP]
23“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[SUP]h[/SUP] was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[SUP]i[/SUP] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
29“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
30“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

you see how not understanding paul is speaking about the mosaic law is confusing and leads to omission of what Jesus teaches clearly. in verse 35 He leaves little doubt what the parable is about, the man is forgiven, goes out and then refuses to forgive another, then what happens to Him? He is thrown in prison to be tortured because He wont forgive another persons debt. and then of coarse Jesus makes it clear as always " this is how my Heavenly Father will treat all of you unless you forgive your brother from the heart."

so this should clear up the question you asked. people have to omit what Jesus said to keep to the misteaching of, teachers who don't understand that pauls "works" are just paul saying, no one is saved through the Law of moses, that was works. Jesus commands aren't work, they are loyalty to Jesus who Died and saved us from the Laws curse. paul is not understood and mistaught to make an unconditional "gospel" because so few have faith in Jesus. its easier to think its unconditional, even though the gospel is coinditional. so the result is things like " well that doesn't apply to a Christian, we don't follow Jesus, we follow Paul." but really, paul is in no way teaching an unconditional gospel. Hes saying we were saved by Grace, meaning, all the world was under law, a law that could not save a man. so Jesus died to pay the death we all owed because of sin. that's grace and what paul is saying. works, are not Jesus, Jesus teachings are grace. think of it. once a person is "saved" who then is worthy of forgiveness? but the person who is grateful to the One who died and honors what He clearly teaches? and he teaches forgive and you will be forgiven. if you do not, then you will not be forgiven. its right there in scripture that you are saying I'm "completely contradicting"

so, yeah that's what I meant by ommital of Jesus, and what I meant by " id rather know that I'm REQUIRED to forgive" than pretend there is no condition because of misunderstanding and accepting a false doctrine that opposes the Only Lord and saviors words.....

Ariel82 · Jun 10, 2016

God tells us to forgive others or be punished....a lot of people chose punishment/ chastenment rather than forgiveness.

Grace is unmerrited favor...the other person might not deserve to be forgiven but God says forgive them anyway because God forgave us even though we don't deserve it.

Yet he does not forsake us, he teaches us how forgiveness is better than anger and bitterness.

followjesus · Jun 10, 2016

Ariel82 said:

right He doesn't forsake us, but we have free will to forsake Him and His word. and also God is Faithful to His word, and He says clearly there is a place of eternal punishment in His gospel. Hes no liar. that's my point, he doesn't forsake, but we still have free will and aren't forced into salvation because of Grace.

PilgrimPassingThru · Jun 10, 2016

I was cleaning up some studies, and one was the one that went with this one. I had added a few more verses into my original post, so I thought I would add it back into here, I had most of the orginal in caps, I just wanted to add the verses I thought agreed with it (hope you dont mind a renewed repeat)

This first verse is reposted in its context in the end also

Zech 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,

**Execute** true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:

In light of the above (as it pertains to judgment) it says,

Prov 21:7 **The robbery of** the wicked shall destroy them; because they refuse **to do** judgment.

The refusal to do the same is shown in the forgiven seravant in the parable who would not and must give an account, and here comes the correction accordingly

Mat 18:33 Shouldest thou **also**have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

The servant in the parable had first received mercy (which he himself was to show to others) his withholding the same can be shown as the "robbery of" the wicked when it come to his refusal to paying that forward.

Psalm 37:21 The wicked **borroweth**, and payeth not **again**: but the righteous **sheweth mercy**, and giveth.

These things spoken to us using words such as debts, borrowing, paying again etc. And so after we have received such mercy (as that same servant) the Lord is showing us in that parable to pay that forward and be merciful as our heavenly Father is merciful, and even from that stand point we are to pray saying, "Father..."

Mat 6:12 And Forgive us our debts,**as we ** forgive our debtors.

There is that little "as we" thing in there

And because we are to pay this same forward (which that forgiven servant did not) and became the wicked servant (for not doing so) according to his lack of mercy.

This is what his Lord is angry about. The previously forgiven servant is now become the wicked servant revealed for not showing mercy and what comes up behind that same thing is what? The judgment (and without mercy) that hath showed no mercy (as he did not).

Mat 8:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, **till** he should pay all that was due unto him.

As James said,

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Which is what Jesus is showing his disciples

Mat 18:35 So Likewise shall my Heavenly Father **do also** unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their tresspasses

Look at being handed over to the tormentors

Shows me this same

1John 4:18 And ...because fear hath torment.

As we should also know,

He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

What was due his Lord was fear for when this judgment come (depicted in being handed to the tormentors) that is tied into fear itself which hath torment even as by the fear of the Lord one departs from evil. In respects to judgment (which we are being shown the true judgement we are to show in such a situation) when it comes to extending mercy, when one does not obey I would think having a fearful expectation of his judgment coming back upon you can be understandable. Besides, when we are judged we are chastened of the Lord.

As a Son or still a servant where might be (as either might relate to the Father)

Mal 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master:

if I be a father, where is my honour? and if I be master where is my fear?,

Where is either my honour or my fear?

So his Lord showed the servant in the parable compassion and forgave his debt (so he is a servant in the position of having received his Lords mercy)

Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying,Pay me that thou owest.

Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

This servant really should not be praying "forgive me my debts as I forgive my debtors" LOL

Because coming up behind the mercy shown him (which he did not extended) is judgment without mercy heading back at him.

Whereas it was said to him,

Mat 18:33 Shouldest thou**also**have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

Mat 8:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, **till** he should pay all that was due unto him.

And now he is being done unto by his Lord as he himself was doing unto another, which had everything to do with not showing mercy

Mat 8:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, **till**

Here, now go learn what this means LOL

Indeed we are perfected in love and in the parable the servant was forgiven (love kept not a record of wrongs with him) set him free and he went off doing nothing of what was shown him. So in no way was that servant in the parable actually walking in love such as in

1John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Its no wonder because he certainly was not showing mercy (in practice) to those who desired the same from him

And whereas here he says

Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

James also tells us this,

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

And in respects to that very same thing and what is shown us in the parable Jesus adds

Mat 18:35 So Likewise shall my Heavenly Father **do also** unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their tresspasses

Therefore this should makes greater sense,

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful AS your heavenly Father IS merciful.

As He is (even merciful) in this world (we ourselves) should be likewise

And looking again at that first verse (the first one posted above) which I used as a springboard to the picture, shows the same theme of wrath following after no mercy being extended in that context as well.

Zech 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,

Execute true judgment,
and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:

Zech 7:10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor;
and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

Zech 7:11But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder,
and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

Zech 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law,
and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets:
therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

I just wanted to add that in here since it goes with the topic and so I can rfer to something a little more complete in the future if I needed to.

God bless you

Trail-of-Truth · Jun 10, 2016

What helped me be forgiving is to recognize there is two issues instead of one. One is going through what I don't want to go through, and two is anger toward the one who caused me to go through it. And realizing that combining these two by seeking revenge isn't going to lessen what I have to go through. So the only thing left to consider is that person should pay for the wrong they've done- which could never be satisfied, they could never pay enough because their payment could not equal my suffering or take it away.

So for the sake of my suffering it could never be satisfied. But for the sake of right and wrong, the one who does wrong will have to pay, even though that payment could never satisfy. Spending an eternity in hell is still not enough payment for even one sin, let alone many. But there has been found only one acceptable payment- the innocent blood of my precious Savior- so powerful not only to one sin, but to satisfy every sin every committed. As evil as that is, so much more is the innocence of Christ's blood.

It was brilliant of God to forgive Paul, the chief of sinners, who once killed Christians, to show us that the blood of Christ is so powerful anyone can be forgiven. Which brings me to a dilemma. If I witnessed Paul at the point of his spree of killing Christians, if it was my loved one that he killed, or even me myself, could I forgive him? Could I sit next to him in church and accept him as my brother in Christ? This is certainly where the tire meets the road.

But here's the thing, I myself have sinned. Who am I to judge another sinner? I recognize that sin needs to be paid for, but who am I to think that I'm the one who needs to be paid, when I have also sinned? Everyone deserves the chance I was granted- to be saved before they die, before their fate is final. And if they will be, and I don't know it yet, who am I to judge them while they are a prodigal like I once was? And what if they don't have it in them, and never get saved? I am still not the One they have to settle accounts with.

What could I possibly do anyways that is worse than torturing someone with fire for all eternity, to where they can never even die to escape it? No one gets away with anything. Every sin is paid for by Christ's blood or God's wrath. I am just simply not the one to dish it out. How dare I attempt to push God off His throne and take over judging? I would rather do what He says, and forgive all so that I'll be forgiven, and let Him take out His wrath upon those who remain His enemies.

And if its possible, if they have it in them to be saved, is it my sourness, my bitter revengeful heart, that will bring them to Christ to be saved as I have? Or will it be me showing them the great love and forgiveness that I have learned from my Father? As much as I can think they aren't deserving of it, that's how much I'm not either. But if they have in them what I have in me, they deserve the chance just as much as God granted it to me.

followjesus · Jun 10, 2016

LOVE when you do that. do that more and more. that's good stuff for any who would see. I noticed in this and most when you do it this way, you always connect nt scripture with ot scripture of prophets pointing to the gospel. really through the way you present these, it shows so well that were looking at one message from the One God, that never changes. I always learn something or connect things I never did before. not flattery at all am I offering, but appreciation for the study and that you shared that gift. always ,always a blessing I tell ya

its rare when someone actually goes with the subject, and what you did here in this post is going to guide my study later and tomorrow ! Love when theres edifycation that leads me to seek and find, thank you Pilgrim.....do this more an more please !!!! it is a blessing indeed

Ariel82 · Jun 10, 2016

followjesus said:

I can't enter a free will debate, I gave mine to God and hope He gives me directions in this life.

followjesus · Jun 10, 2016

amen great testimony there. wonderful stuff like the thinking and reasoning you offer a lot. ive noticed that forgiving others just really truly heals our own hearts, and cleanses things we never even knew were there. its a part of my every prayer now days to ask forgiveness when someone else offends me on their behalf, and always ask that God will forgive the things I don't even know about. or even people who dislike me. forgiving is sometimes difficult but with prayer before God the Father, it becomes fulfilling and causes much growth. and cleanses our conscience bringing peace more and more as all things taught in the gospel do.

thanks for taking the time to offer those good words, God bless you in all things Jesus Christ who Loves you deeply and without measure

followjesus · Jun 10, 2016

Ariel82 said:

I'm not looking for any debate lol thanks and that's the way to do it like you said submit the will to God. blessings to you in the precious and Holy name of Jesus

PilgrimPassingThru · Jun 10, 2016

followjesus said:

Praise the Lord Bro that is really great to hear you received something from the word on this, and I am glad that I could be of help in some way. He is great, He never fails to increase our understanding in a thing or two when we think upon His word. Its all good, and where we might be a little unclear, that is okay too, just set it aside and return to it later (it will come).

And I know you mean the things above in order to bring edification, you add a little sunshine to this place, I am encouraged and blessed by your reception of the scriptures where that seems to be fading.

Our God richly bless you followjesus, its good to see you around and about

Peace to you in Christ.

layers in the unforgiving Debtor??

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