House of Cornelius and the law

[garee]

Hello,

You wrote: "Have you been born again as one found with no righteousness of their own self?"

My response: Yes.

Hi thanks for the reply and with all due respect I see that a little differently.

So then you will not be found with any righteousness according to the law, nothing ? Is that what you are saying? ?

You wrote: "The key is "born of Him". Not born of Moses who you keep bringing up for some reason or other. After all no man can serve “two masters”."

My response: Why the false dichotomy?The Torah of Moses points us to Christ. Christ points us to Torah. They go hand-in-hand

Whose hand as a will to whose hand? Do we not compare scripture Gods' perfect law, to scripture, seeing God is not served by human hands??

The Torah of God points to God the one author of the scriptures. Moses as a metaphor or type is used to typify the word of God in respect to God ,the only law giver. Elijah one of the prophet’s is used to typify the anointing Spirit of God as to the action or power of the living word of God so that we hear Jesus, and not Moses or Elijah as if they were in the place of God’s Holy Spirit.

Not one thought came from either as if God was served by human hands and needed something from the clay he is forming Christ in.

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Luk 9:30

There was no hearing of faith connected to the clay(Moses or Elijah) . That kind of idea I believe would reflect the verse below in regard to the fathers who held to the false authority of the oral traditions of men .Christ nemesis. .

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing “framed” say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Why the as it seems false dichotomy?

You wrote: "We are to have no gods before our living God, Christ Jesus, and that includes one self, as self-righteous."

My response. Very good. NOW, if YHVH is our God, then do we OBEY or DISOBEY His ways?

Christians do obey them by guarding them with all our heart soul and mind. No man can keep them perfectly without stumbling at the least and find themselves guilty of violating the whole. Remember the wage of one sin is eternal damnation, never to rise to new spirit life forever more. It’s not something we can work to do as in, just get up after violating the law of God brush it off as we could even turn to repent if we did not already have the grace to be forgiven..

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Moses in respect to a succession of men, called fathers like that of the Catholics that they call apostolic succession is not the authority by which we could believe God .It's the word of God that he has set against us in His book of the law (bible) as the one reforming authority in any generation.

 

[Dan_473]

Hello,

You wrote: "Have you been born again as one found with no righteousness of their own self?"

My response: Yes.

You wrote: "The key is "born of Him". Not born of Moses who you keep bringing up for some reason or other. After all no man can serve “two masters”."

My response: Why the false dichotomy?

The Torah of Moses points us to Christ. Christ points us to Torah. They go hand-in-hand.

Jesus and the Apostles obeyed and taught Torah (and we should too). THAT is why I keep bringing it up! MANY religious people among us do not even know this basic fact regarding Jesus' (and the apostles') ministry in the Torah-obedient Gospel of faith.

You wrote: "We cannot have a righteousness of our own by what you call keeping the Torah, the law of God... which no man could keep perfectly without stumbling in the least."

My response: To the contrary, our works of righteousness are properly performed in OBEDIENCE (not opposition!) to Torah. (Mt. 5:19; 2 Ti. 3:16; Dt. 6:25; Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16; Heb. 11:32-33; Rom. 10:8 and Dt. 30:11-14).

Of course we can not have a righteousness "of our own" (i.e., apart from faith). BUT, that's no excuse to ignore your covenant obligation to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the many covenants in which you participate.

Of course no man (besides the Messiah) can keep Torah sinlessly. BUT, that's no excuse to ignore your covenant obligation to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the many covenants in which you participate.

You wrote: "It is simply blasphemy to accredit one self with a righteousness that could only come by the righteousness of another. God alone ."

My response: It is NOT blasphemy to identify Scriptures which confirm that we (who are of faith) properly perform acts of righteousness in OBEDIENCE to Torah (Mt. 5:19; 2 Ti. 3:16; Dt. 6:25; Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16; Heb. 11:32-33; Rom. 10:8 and Dt. 30:11-14).

You wrote: "We are to have no gods before our living God, Christ Jesus, and that includes one self, as self-righteous."

My response. Very good. NOW, if YHVH is our God, then do we OBEY or DISOBEY His ways?

Of course! OBEY! And where are His ways found? The written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

The Messiah, of course, agrees....even praying that we be sanctified by Torah (Jn. 17:17).

So, let's be sanctified in faithful growing obedience to the Torah which our Messiah prays we obey!

You wrote: "Question when you say Torah; would that include the oral traditions of the fathers as those who held to Judaism and turned the things of God upside down?"

My response: Torah trumps tradition (Mk. 7:8-9). BUT, Torah-obedient traditions should be KEPT (2 Th. 3:6), and those who oppose such Torah-obedient traditions should be put to shame (2 Th. 3:14) and admonished (2 Th. 3:15).

So then, let us ADMONISH one another with PSALMS (Col. 3:16), just as Torah-obedient Paul requires of us.

AND, what do the Psalms require? TORAH! (Ps. 1; Ps. 19; Ps. 119; etc...)

blessings...
BibleGuy

' Of course no man (besides the Messiah) can keep Torah sinlessly.'

I'm confuse... I thought you thought that was possible... like john the B's parents.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes! AND, the flesh can not obey Torah (Rom. 8:7-8)....thus, the Spirit (by contrast, Rom. 8:9) leads us to OBEY Torah.

That's how we can best edify others.

blessings...
BibleGuy

I think the Spirit leads us to keep the spirit of the law, as the Spirit understands it... Opposed to the letter of the law that the flesh understands.

 

[Dan_473]

Ok...and, I think we agree that people CAN keep Torah blamelessly (Lk. 1:6).

blessings...
BibleGuy

well, no... I'm not sure what you mean by 'blamelessly'

like, no sin ever?

 

[Dan_473]

My response: My use of "Torah" generally refers to the Torah of Moses (found, generally, in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). My use of "Torah" generally does NOT refer to so-called "oral Torah".

However, written Torah guarantees a certain measure of man-made judgments. And in fact, when such Mosaic judgments are properly functioning, we should OBEY them (Mt. 23:2-3), per Jesus' teaching.

And, if Jesus obeyed elements of oral tradition, then it's ok for us to do the same (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn. 2:6).

BUT, remember that TORAH TRUMPS TRADITION (Mk. 7:8-9).

So, I never said that "oral Torah" is equally authoritative to God's written words in the Bible.

And I never said we worship oral torah!

Yikes...

BibleGuy

'However, written Torah guarantees a certain measure of man-made judgments. And in fact, when such Mosaic judgments are properly functioning, we should OBEY them (Mt. 23:2-3), per Jesus' teaching.'

MATTHEW 23:2 saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees sat on Moses’ seat.
MATTHEW 23:3 All things therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do, but don’t do their works; for they say, and don’t do.

who are the scribes and Pharisees today, in your view?

 

[Dan_473]

I am sorry but i cannot agree because you said:

-I earned it (and God owes it to me), ONLY if I obey the law sinlessly all by myself (without even bothering to trust in the blood of Christ).

You cannot obey the law sinlessly we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God so we deserve death everyone of us. But by the grace of God we have the Lord Jesus Christ who is the only person to ever walk the earth without spot being sacrificed for our sins who became our payment imputing his righteousness to us. I am sorry brother but you cannot earn heaven and the Lord owes us nothing, when can the created tell the creator He owes us something.


-Read it again. Now, WHY does Isaiah say our "righteousness" was as filthy rags? Because we were SINNING (Is. 64:5). AND, what is "sin" for Isaiah? Answer: Torah-disobedience (Is. 42:24). This simply confirms that it's bad to sin, and (thus) we should instead obey Torah!

If you believe that you are walking completely 100% Torah obedient you are deceiving yourself. We are told by the Lord Jesus Christ that if you look upon a woman you have already committed adultery. We do not have to walk out and physically sin to break a law, we can do it with the thought processes.

-you see, if you AGREE Is. 64 applies to you, then you are an ISRAELITE! Why? Because the "we" of Is. 64 refers to YHVH's people (Is. 64:9). And WHO are the people of God? ISRAEL! (Dt. 4:20; 29:13; 2 Sa. 7:23)

AND, what should we Israelites be doing? Answer: The Torah which is given to us (Mal. 4:4).

When do we become a Jew? Do you get to pick the tribe you want to be part of? Do we get blood transfusions so we become part of the blood line?

We are still gentiles saved by the grace of God through the death, burial, and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit which will guide us according to the spirit and not the flesh. Made righteous by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

' We are told by the Lord Jesus Christ that if you look upon a woman you have already committed adultery. We do not have to walk out and physically sin to break a law, we can do it with the thought processes.'

good point! the spirit of Torah is even harder to keep than than the letter.

 

[BibleGuy]

I am sorry but i cannot agree because you said:

-I earned it (and God owes it to me), ONLY if I obey the law sinlessly all by myself (without even bothering to trust in the blood of Christ).

You cannot obey the law sinlessly we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God so we deserve death everyone of us. But by the grace of God we have the Lord Jesus Christ who is the only person to ever walk the earth without spot being sacrificed for our sins who became our payment imputing his righteousness to us. I am sorry brother but you cannot earn heaven and the Lord owes us nothing, when can the created tell the creator He owes us something.


-Read it again. Now, WHY does Isaiah say our "righteousness" was as filthy rags? Because we were SINNING (Is. 64:5). AND, what is "sin" for Isaiah? Answer: Torah-disobedience (Is. 42:24). This simply confirms that it's bad to sin, and (thus) we should instead obey Torah!

If you believe that you are walking completely 100% Torah obedient you are deceiving yourself. We are told by the Lord Jesus Christ that if you look upon a woman you have already committed adultery. We do not have to walk out and physically sin to break a law, we can do it with the thought processes.

-you see, if you AGREE Is. 64 applies to you, then you are an ISRAELITE! Why? Because the "we" of Is. 64 refers to YHVH's people (Is. 64:9). And WHO are the people of God? ISRAEL! (Dt. 4:20; 29:13; 2 Sa. 7:23)

AND, what should we Israelites be doing? Answer: The Torah which is given to us (Mal. 4:4).

When do we become a Jew? Do you get to pick the tribe you want to be part of? Do we get blood transfusions so we become part of the blood line?

We are still gentiles saved by the grace of God through the death, burial, and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit which will guide us according to the spirit and not the flesh. Made righteous by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

I am sorry but i cannot agree because you said:

-I earned it (and God owes it to me), ONLY if I obey the law sinlessly all by myself (without even bothering to trust in the blood of Christ).

You cannot obey the law sinlessly we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God so we deserve death everyone of us. But by the grace of God we have the Lord Jesus Christ who is the only person to ever walk the earth without spot being sacrificed for our sins who became our payment imputing his righteousness to us. I am sorry brother but you cannot earn heaven and the Lord owes us nothing, when can the created tell the creator He owes us something.


-Read it again. Now, WHY does Isaiah say our "righteousness" was as filthy rags? Because we were SINNING (Is. 64:5). AND, what is "sin" for Isaiah? Answer: Torah-disobedience (Is. 42:24). This simply confirms that it's bad to sin, and (thus) we should instead obey Torah!

If you believe that you are walking completely 100% Torah obedient you are deceiving yourself. We are told by the Lord Jesus Christ that if you look upon a woman you have already committed adultery. We do not have to walk out and physically sin to break a law, we can do it with the thought processes.

-you see, if you AGREE Is. 64 applies to you, then you are an ISRAELITE! Why? Because the "we" of Is. 64 refers to YHVH's people (Is. 64:9). And WHO are the people of God? ISRAEL! (Dt. 4:20; 29:13; 2 Sa. 7:23)

AND, what should we Israelites be doing? Answer: The Torah which is given to us (Mal. 4:4).

When do we become a Jew? Do you get to pick the tribe you want to be part of? Do we get blood transfusions so we become part of the blood line?

We are still gentiles saved by the grace of God through the death, burial, and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit which will guide us according to the spirit and not the flesh. Made righteous by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

Hi there!

You wrote: "You cannot obey the law sinlessly we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God so we deserve death everyone of us."

My response: I agree! So why are you apparently disagreeing with me? I agree!

And, even though we cannot obey the law sinlessly, we CAN (nevertheless) obey all Torah (as Moses prophesied we would, Dt. 30:1-8).

AND, Torah CAN be obeyed blamelessly (Lk. 1:6).

So, I don't understand what you are "disagreeing" with.

Are you disagreeing with Dt. 30:1-8?

Are you disagreeing with Lk. 1:6?

You wrote: "I am sorry brother but you cannot earn heaven and the Lord owes us nothing, when can the created tell the creator He owes us something."

My response: I agree! I never said we "earn" heaven...so why are you disagreeing with me? We agree!

Did you not read my statement? Here it is again: "But of course, I never claimed such a thing...and that's not my position. So let's not accuse me of seeking justification by faithless works."

In other words, I AGREE that we do not obey Torah sinlessly.

And, I AGREE that God does not owe heaven to me (or anyone).

So you can't DISAGREE with me at the same time I agree with you! That's inconsistent, my friend.

You wrote: "If you believe that you are walking completely 100% Torah obedient you are deceiving yourself."

My response: Do you oppose Moses' prophecy which GUARANTEES 100% obedience to all Torah? (Dt. 30:1-8)

Was Luke just joking when he wrote that Zacharias and Elizabeth walked blamelessly in obedience to ALL Torah? (Lk. 1:6)

Was Moses joking when he said it's NOT too difficult to obey Torah? (Dt. 30:11). Of course not.

Yes, lust is sinful...but that's no excuse to fail to grow in faithful Torah-obedience as the Messiah commands us.

Yes, bad thought processes can be sinful...but that's no excuse to fail to grow in Torah as Messiah commands.

You wrote: "When do we become a Jew? Do you get to pick the tribe you want to be part of? Do we get blood transfusions so we become part of the blood line?"

My response: When did I say you become a Jew? Again...you've misunderstood my position.

As a Christian, you are an ISRAELITE (not necessarily a Jew). That's what Scripture REPEATEDLY confirms.

Remember?

Do you participate in the New Covenant? If "yes", then you are an ISRAELITE (Jer. 31:33).

Why? Because the New Covenant is ONLY between YHVH and ISRAEL.

Regarding tribal identity...well...that is largely unknown at this point...but personal choice is evidently available to some (Eze. 47:23).

And blood transfusions? Hardly! "ISRAEL" is not rigidly genetically defined...so "blood line" is not a Scripturally stipulated prerequisite for inclusion within Israel. (e.g., Dt. 29; Is. 56).

You wrote: "We are still gentiles saved by the grace of God through the death, burial, and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit which will guide us according to the spirit and not the flesh. Made righteous by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ."

My response: GREAT! AND, we are no longer EXCLUDED (Eph. 2:12). Rather, we are INCLUDED in the covenants (plural) between YHVH and Israel. Thus, we are Gentiles who are INCLUDED as fellow ISRAELITES. We are grafted-in to Israel.

So why do you evidently oppose growth in faithful obedience to the Torah of the Torah-laden covenants in which we participate?

After all, we are included (no longer excluded, Eph. 2:12) from Israel.

And we are fellow heirs (Eph. 3:6; Heb. 11:9) along with Abraham and His seed (through Israel).

Heirs of what? The LAND promise!

And the land promise is to be fulfilled (Dt. 6:10) in conjunction with what? Answer: Obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).

And surprise surprise! Jesus likewise applies Dt. 6 to us (Mt. 22:37), further confirming the ongoing application of Dt. 6 to us.

So, are you an Israelite?

If "no", then you are NOT a New Covenant participant (per Jer. 31:33), and you are NOT a fellow heir of the land promise given to Israel through Abraham.

But of course, you surely ARE a New Covenant participant! Thus, you ARE an Israelite (even though you evidently don't know this yet!).

And, you ARE a fellow heir in the land promise given to Israel through Abraham (even though you evidently don't know this yet either!)

Please do not cast away your inheritance in Israel.

Please do not cast away your obligation to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the covenants in which you participate.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

' Of course no man (besides the Messiah) can keep Torah sinlessly.'

I'm confuse... I thought you thought that was possible... like john the B's parents.

Hi Dan_473,

John the B's parents kept Torah blamelessly (not sinlessly).

BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

I think the Spirit leads us to keep the spirit of the law, as the Spirit understands it... Opposed to the letter of the law that the flesh understands.

Hi Dan_473,

The flesh does NOT understand (and can NOT obey) Torah. Remember Rom. 8:7?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

' We are told by the Lord Jesus Christ that if you look upon a woman you have already committed adultery. We do not have to walk out and physically sin to break a law, we can do it with the thought processes.'

good point! the spirit of Torah is even harder to keep than than the letter.

Why are we pretending that it's hard to obey Torah?

Remember Dt. 30:11?

Remember 1 Jn. 5:3?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

'However, written Torah guarantees a certain measure of man-made judgments. And in fact, when such Mosaic judgments are properly functioning, we should OBEY them (Mt. 23:2-3), per Jesus' teaching.'

MATTHEW 23:2 saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees sat on Moses’ seat.
MATTHEW 23:3 All things therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do, but don’t do their works; for they say, and don’t do.

who are the scribes and Pharisees today, in your view?

Hi Dan_473,

Perhaps you mean to ask this: "Who do I think sits in the seat of Moses today?"

My response: I don't think this feature of Torah is presently functioning.

Who are "scribes" today? Well, scribes (Gr. "grammateus") are Torah-teachers. Some are good, some bad.

I don't personally know anyone who claims to be a Pharisee today.

Anyway, when Torah is again fully functional (Dt. 30:1-8), then we can expect the seat of Moses to be restored to its proper function.

BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

well, no... I'm not sure what you mean by 'blamelessly'

like, no sin ever?

Just saw this comment...so I'll answer!

Torah can be obeyed blamelessly (Lk. 1:6).

Does that mean Zacharias and Elizabeth never ever sinned? Of course not...(Rom. 3:23).

Nevertheless, these Scriptures clearly confirm that sinners can obey Torah blamelessly.

Moses says Torah is not too hard to obey (Dt. 30:11). John agrees (1 Jn. 5:3).

Of course Torah is IMPOSSIBLE to obey sinlessly. But Moses never expected Torah to be obeyed by the Israelites sinlessly. Moses expected Torah to be obeyed sinfully. That is, he expected Torah to be obeyed by people who (though saved) might occasionally sin (e.g., David). That's one reason why Torah has provisions for sin built into it. The Israelites were EXPECTED to sin...but provision in Torah was made for that sin.

The concept of sinful obedience is nothing new!

The same word for blameless (Gr. "amemptos", Lk. 1:6) appears in Ge. 17:1 (LXX), where YHVH tells Abraham to walk BLAMELESS before Him.

And Abraham was righteous by faith...but was that an excuse to ignore Torah?

Of course not! Abraham OBEYED the Torah available to him (Ge. 26:5), and he commanded his family to do likewise (Ge. 18:19).

So let's be blameless...just as our Father Abraham was blameless...was righteous by faith...AND performed acts of righteous obedience to the Torah available to him.

Likewise, we can be blameless....righteous by faith...AND we properly perform acts of righteous OBEDIENCE to the Torah of the covenants in which we participate....and this includes the Torah of Moses.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi thanks for the reply and with all due respect I see that a little differently.

So then you will not be found with any righteousness according to the law, nothing ? Is that what you are saying? ?



Whose hand as a will to whose hand? Do we not compare scripture Gods' perfect law, to scripture, seeing God is not served by human hands??

The Torah of God points to God the one author of the scriptures. Moses as a metaphor or type is used to typify the word of God in respect to God ,the only law giver. Elijah one of the prophet’s is used to typify the anointing Spirit of God as to the action or power of the living word of God so that we hear Jesus, and not Moses or Elijah as if they were in the place of God’s Holy Spirit.

Not one thought came from either as if God was served by human hands and needed something from the clay he is forming Christ in.

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Luk 9:30

There was no hearing of faith connected to the clay(Moses or Elijah) . That kind of idea I believe would reflect the verse below in regard to the fathers who held to the false authority of the oral traditions of men .Christ nemesis. .

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing “framed” say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Why the as it seems false dichotomy?



Christians do obey them by guarding them with all our heart soul and mind. No man can keep them perfectly without stumbling at the least and find themselves guilty of violating the whole. Remember the wage of one sin is eternal damnation, never to rise to new spirit life forever more. It’s not something we can work to do as in, just get up after violating the law of God brush it off as we could even turn to repent if we did not already have the grace to be forgiven..

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Moses in respect to a succession of men, called fathers like that of the Catholics that they call apostolic succession is not the authority by which we could believe God .It's the word of God that he has set against us in His book of the law (bible) as the one reforming authority in any generation.

Hello,

You wrote: "So then you will not be found with any righteousness according to the law, nothing ? Is that what you are saying? ?"

My response: Good question. But remember! There are TWO facets to righteousness:

1. Faith-righteousness.
2. Works-righteousness.

We need BOTH!

Faith-righteousness (apart from faithless works) saves us (Eph. 2:8-9), granting us free ENTRANCE into the coming kingdom.
Works-righteousness necessarily accompanies faith (Jas. 2:17), and determines our POSITION in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

So you can stop accusing me of trying to earn entrance into heaven! That's never been by position.

BUT, you can DEFINITELY accuse me of claiming that our position in the kingdom depends upon our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching (Mt. 5:19).

There are some who will be saved, but without reward (1 Cor. 3:15). Who would want that?

So let's grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the covenants in which we participate!

Our law-righteousness does not grant us entrance into the kingdom...but it grants us reward WITHIN the kingdom.

You wrote: "There was no hearing of faith connected to the clay(Moses or Elijah)."

My response: Paul said that Torah-obedient faith (Dt. 30:14) IS the word of faith he preached (Dt. 30:14 is favorably cited in Rom. 10:8). So, proper Torah-obedience is FAITHFUL Torah-obedience, just as Paul likewise preached.

David was a hero of FAITH...but he also obeyed Torah.

Abraham was a man of FAITH...but he also obeyed Torah.

Let us do likewise.

You wrote: "Remember the wage of one sin is eternal damnation, never to rise to new spirit life forever more."

My response: No. Moses sinned. But Moses is NOT in eternal damnation.

You quote Romans 11:6. I agree! And, it's consistent with my position. I never said we function without God's grace.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan_473,

John the B's parents kept Torah blamelessly (not sinlessly).

BibleGuy

they sinned regarding Torah but were held blameless for it?

what do you mean?

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan_473,

The flesh does NOT understand (and can NOT obey) Torah. Remember Rom. 8:7?

blessings...
BibleGuy

ROMANS 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

ROMANS 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;



those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the things of the Spirit.

why do you talk about obeying the flesh's understanding of Torah?

 

[BibleGuy]

they sinned regarding Torah but were held blameless for it?

what do you mean?

They sinned (by virtue of being human....all humans have sinned, except Messiah).

But, they walked in faithful obedience to all Torah, doing anything Torah requires when a person sins.

So, they obeyed ALL Torah (even the Torah portions which tell us what to do when we sin).

That's how Zacharias and Elizabeth can be viewed as blamelessly obeying Torah (Lk. 1:6).

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

ROMANS 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

ROMANS 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;



those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the things of the Spirit.

why do you talk about obeying the flesh's understanding of Torah?

Hi again!

You wrote: "Why do you talk about obeying the flesh's understanding of Torah?"

My response: Because you wrote this: "I think the Spirit leads us to keep the spirit of the law, as the Spirit understands it... Opposed to the letter of the law that the flesh understands."

See it? YOU referred to "the letter of the law that the flesh understands".

So, I'm trying to address the "flesh's understanding of Torah", because YOU brought up this concept, even though it's rather unclear what you mean.

To help clarify, I pointed you to Rom. 8, where Paul sets up a contrast between FLESH and SPIRIT.

The flesh CAN NOT obey Torah (Rom. 8:7-8). Thus, the spirit (by contrast) must lead us to OBEY Torah. (Rom. 8:9).

That's all I was trying to emphasize...that "the flesh" is bad...which means "Torah-disobedience" is bad....which means "Torah-obedience" (by the Spirit) must be good.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[Dan_473]

Why are we pretending that it's hard to obey Torah?

Remember Dt. 30:11?

Remember 1 Jn. 5:3?

blessings...
BibleGuy

DEUTERONOMY 30:11 For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you or too distant.

what does Moses mean this day'?
and 'commandment' singular?




but something always seems to get tripped up along the way

THE ACTS 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

THE ACTS 15:10 Now therefore why do you tempt God, that you should put a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?





1 JOHN 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.

yes! fulfilling the commandments by loving one's neighbor isn't grievous... it takes a lifetime, but it's not grievous.

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan_473,

Perhaps you mean to ask this: "Who do I think sits in the seat of Moses today?"

My response: I don't think this feature of Torah is presently functioning.

Who are "scribes" today? Well, scribes (Gr. "grammateus") are Torah-teachers. Some are good, some bad.

I don't personally know anyone who claims to be a Pharisee today.

Anyway, when Torah is again fully functional (Dt. 30:1-8), then we can expect the seat of Moses to be restored to its proper function.

BibleGuy

no, I meant to ask who are the scribes and Pharisees today, in your view, because that's who Jesus is referring to.

I've heard Judaism today continues the Traditions of the Elders, Pharisees, Talmud.




if no one is sitting in the seat of Moses, then does everyone follow Torah as it is right in their own eyes?

can one person judge another person's Torah keeping?

 

[Dan_473]

Just saw this comment...so I'll answer!

Torah can be obeyed blamelessly (Lk. 1:6).

Does that mean Zacharias and Elizabeth never ever sinned? Of course not...(Rom. 3:23).

Nevertheless, these Scriptures clearly confirm that sinners can obey Torah blamelessly.

Moses says Torah is not too hard to obey (Dt. 30:11). John agrees (1 Jn. 5:3).

Of course Torah is IMPOSSIBLE to obey sinlessly. But Moses never expected Torah to be obeyed by the Israelites sinlessly. Moses expected Torah to be obeyed sinfully. That is, he expected Torah to be obeyed by people who (though saved) might occasionally sin (e.g., David). That's one reason why Torah has provisions for sin built into it. The Israelites were EXPECTED to sin...but provision in Torah was made for that sin.

The concept of sinful obedience is nothing new!

The same word for blameless (Gr. "amemptos", Lk. 1:6) appears in Ge. 17:1 (LXX), where YHVH tells Abraham to walk BLAMELESS before Him.

And Abraham was righteous by faith...but was that an excuse to ignore Torah?

Of course not! Abraham OBEYED the Torah available to him (Ge. 26:5), and he commanded his family to do likewise (Ge. 18:19).

So let's be blameless...just as our Father Abraham was blameless...was righteous by faith...AND performed acts of righteous obedience to the Torah available to him.

Likewise, we can be blameless....righteous by faith...AND we properly perform acts of righteous OBEDIENCE to the Torah of the covenants in which we participate....and this includes the Torah of Moses.

blessings...
BibleGuy

blameless Torah keeping, then, means offering a sacrifice when you break a commandment, in your view?

are all Christians blameless, then, or are some still under blame?