House of Cornelius and the law

[sparty-g]

I'm re-reading some of the posts here and trying to synthesize some of the information and differences in our beliefs and practices as followers of the Messiah. I think some of the differences claimed are not really differences but are simply misunderstandings. On the flip side, we will probably discover more legitimate differences between us as we further discuss.

I think the most obvious misunderstanding is incorrectly thinking that us Torah-observant folks think we are "saved" or obtain salvation by our obedience to the Father by following the commands. However, as BibleGuy has consistently said, that is not our position -- we agree with Paul when he said: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not from yourselves—it is the gift of God. It is not based on deeds, so that no one may boast." (Eph. 2:8-9, TLV). We believe we are saved through our trust in and the faithfulness of the Messiah, as a free gift from the Father, not dependent on any series of righteous works prior to salvation.

The crux of the conversation should shift to what faithful obedience for the saved believer looks like, since this is where our primary disagreement lies. From what I can tell from this thread, I've noticed at least three ways of thinking (though there are more out there):

1. Faithful obedience is following what is found in post-resurrection writings (namely, various part of Acts and all of the epistles/revelation that follow) and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position rejects much of the Gospels as being written to those "under the Law" and sometimes even the earlier portions of Acts. It also rejects most or all references to the Torah/Law as a source for faithful obedience, and justifies this position by stating that all the Torah/Law commands are summed up in one or two commands at stated and expanded upon in the New Testament. (In sum, the Torah/Law is not a source at all)

2. Faithful obedience is following all New Testament writings (including the Gospels and earlier portions of Acts) and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position finds more of the Gospels and earlier portions of Acts as applicable, and sometimes even considers parts (or rarely all) of the Torah/Law as sources for faithful obedience, to the extent that they are interpreted and carried out in a "Spiritual" manner only (as opposed to the physical manner or "letter"). (In sum, the Torah/Law is a source to a certain extent)

3. Faithful obedience is following all of the Torah/Law, both Old and New Testament sources, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position views the entire Torah/Law as a source for faithful obedience and maximizing Torah observance as a reflection of following the Messiah, who Himself was Torah observant. This position also holds that certain portions of the Torah/Law are not able to presently be carried out (e.g., there is no temple or functioning Levitical priesthood, being outside of the land of Israel, etc.), though these may or definitely will be restored and carried out in the future. It also maintains that, while there is a Spiritual aspect to the Torah/Law (cf. the Messiah's counsel on faithfully carrying out certain Torah/Law commands), the Spiritual aspect does not cancel out the physical aspect in most or all cases (e.g., we must not murder and also not have hate in our hearts, not one or the other). (In sum, the Torah/Law is fully a source)

We Torah observant folks fall somewhere in category three. We view proper faithful obedience as living like the Messiah, who Himself was Torah observant. Thus, maximizing our walking after the Messiah includes maximizing our Torah observance. Moreover, we view the Torah/Law as a legitimate source for faithful obedience as it is a reflection of the life and teachings of the Messiah. We also include the Messiah's expanded counsel and the leading of the Holy Spirit as legitimate sources for faithful obedience, and that none of these (Torah/Law, Messiah, Holy Spirit) should be in conflict with the other.

BibleGuy has lain out many supporting Scripture passages and theological ways of thinking to support Torah observance as a legitimate and necessary part of faithful obedience. This discussion would be most profitable if, moving forward, we all agreed that we are in agreement about the method to receive salvation, and started focusing on discussing the differences we have with regards to faithful obedience.

Blessings to you all.

 

[royalscot]

Grace does not justify you to continue to live in willful transgression(Mat 7:21-23). Grace is the divine influence upon the heart which draws you back to the Father, which leads you to repentance of your sins(Rom 2:4), which is transgression of the law(1 John 3:4).

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:3 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Now according to the verses above, are you walking as Jesus did (Jesus was obedient to the Father) ? Are you purifying yourself ? Has Jesus taken away the sins of your life (Transgression of the law) ? By breaking the law, are you Doing righteousness or unrighteousness ?

Matt 5:17-19, are you omitting the Fathers commandments and teaching others to do the same ?

These are serious questions you need to evaluate and look into what the text really say about it.

now if romes law governed the jewish law, then what law will you use, etc and can you give detials why after 70 ad you can t get forgivness from a temple of stone. now when you want to catch up with you pogo stick, jesus is in heaven when a new covenant started. etc

 

[Dan_473]

Hello,

You wrote: "So then you will not be found with any righteousness according to the law, nothing ? Is that what you are saying? ?"

My response: Good question. But remember! There are TWO facets to righteousness:

1. Faith-righteousness.
2. Works-righteousness.

We need BOTH!

Faith-righteousness (apart from faithless works) saves us (Eph. 2:8-9), granting us free ENTRANCE into the coming kingdom.
Works-righteousness necessarily accompanies faith (Jas. 2:17), and determines our POSITION in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

So you can stop accusing me of trying to earn entrance into heaven! That's never been by position.

BUT, you can DEFINITELY accuse me of claiming that our position in the kingdom depends upon our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching (Mt. 5:19).

There are some who will be saved, but without reward (1 Cor. 3:15). Who would want that?

So let's grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the covenants in which we participate!

Our law-righteousness does not grant us entrance into the kingdom...but it grants us reward WITHIN the kingdom.

You wrote: "There was no hearing of faith connected to the clay(Moses or Elijah)."

My response: Paul said that Torah-obedient faith (Dt. 30:14) IS the word of faith he preached (Dt. 30:14 is favorably cited in Rom. 10:8). So, proper Torah-obedience is FAITHFUL Torah-obedience, just as Paul likewise preached.

David was a hero of FAITH...but he also obeyed Torah.

Abraham was a man of FAITH...but he also obeyed Torah.

Let us do likewise.

You wrote: "Remember the wage of one sin is eternal damnation, never to rise to new spirit life forever more."

My response: No. Moses sinned. But Moses is NOT in eternal damnation.

You quote Romans 11:6. I agree! And, it's consistent with my position. I never said we function without God's grace.

blessings...
BibleGuy

' Works-righteousness necessarily accompanies faith (Jas. 2:17), and determines our POSITION in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).'

reading Mt. 5:19,
then seeing
MARK 10:44 Whoever of you wants to become first among you, shall be bondservant of all.

MARK 10:45 For the Son of Man also came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

the one who practices Torah by being a servant of all - loving their neighbor - is the greatest

 

[royalscot]

yet change, you fail too see, if all is the goal, then how would you expect, to do this.(humanly ) given the past ie old covenant v new covenant. etc i know you read your bible etc lol ie live in the present or yesterday. etc

 

[Dan_473]

Hi again!

You wrote: "Why do you talk about obeying the flesh's understanding of Torah?"

My response: Because you wrote this: "I think the Spirit leads us to keep the spirit of the law, as the Spirit understands it... Opposed to the letter of the law that the flesh understands."

See it? YOU referred to "the letter of the law that the flesh understands".

So, I'm trying to address the "flesh's understanding of Torah", because YOU brought up this concept, even though it's rather unclear what you mean.

To help clarify, I pointed you to Rom. 8, where Paul sets up a contrast between FLESH and SPIRIT.

The flesh CAN NOT obey Torah (Rom. 8:7-8). Thus, the spirit (by contrast) must lead us to OBEY Torah. (Rom. 8:9).

That's all I was trying to emphasize...that "the flesh" is bad...which means "Torah-disobedience" is bad....which means "Torah-obedience" (by the Spirit) must be good.

best...
BibleGuy

thanks for the explanation!


the mind of the flesh would be human understanding, wouldn't it?

'...which means "Torah-obedience" (by the Spirit) must be good.'

the Spirit's understanding?

 

[Dan_473]

I'm re-reading some of the posts here and trying to synthesize some of the information and differences in our beliefs and practices as followers of the Messiah. I think some of the differences claimed are not really differences but are simply misunderstandings. On the flip side, we will probably discover more legitimate differences between us as we further discuss.

I think the most obvious misunderstanding is incorrectly thinking that us Torah-observant folks think we are "saved" or obtain salvation by our obedience to the Father by following the commands. However, as BibleGuy has consistently said, that is not our position -- we agree with Paul when he said: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not from yourselves—it is the gift of God. It is not based on deeds, so that no one may boast." (Eph. 2:8-9, TLV). We believe we are saved through our trust in and the faithfulness of the Messiah, as a free gift from the Father, not dependent on any series of righteous works prior to salvation.

The crux of the conversation should shift to what faithful obedience for the saved believer looks like, since this is where our primary disagreement lies. From what I can tell from this thread, I've noticed at least three ways of thinking (though there are more out there):

1. Faithful obedience is following what is found in post-resurrection writings (namely, various part of Acts and all of the epistles/revelation that follow) and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position rejects much of the Gospels as being written to those "under the Law" and sometimes even the earlier portions of Acts. It also rejects most or all references to the Torah/Law as a source for faithful obedience, and justifies this position by stating that all the Torah/Law commands are summed up in one or two commands at stated and expanded upon in the New Testament. (In sum, the Torah/Law is not a source at all)

2. Faithful obedience is following all New Testament writings (including the Gospels and earlier portions of Acts) and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position finds more of the Gospels and earlier portions of Acts as applicable, and sometimes even considers parts (or rarely all) of the Torah/Law as sources for faithful obedience, to the extent that they are interpreted and carried out in a "Spiritual" manner only (as opposed to the physical manner or "letter"). (In sum, the Torah/Law is a source to a certain extent)

3. Faithful obedience is following all of the Torah/Law, both Old and New Testament sources, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position views the entire Torah/Law as a source for faithful obedience and maximizing Torah observance as a reflection of following the Messiah, who Himself was Torah observant. This position also holds that certain portions of the Torah/Law are not able to presently be carried out (e.g., there is no temple or functioning Levitical priesthood, being outside of the land of Israel, etc.), though these may or definitely will be restored and carried out in the future. It also maintains that, while there is a Spiritual aspect to the Torah/Law (cf. the Messiah's counsel on faithfully carrying out certain Torah/Law commands), the Spiritual aspect does not cancel out the physical aspect in most or all cases (e.g., we must not murder and also not have hate in our hearts, not one or the other). (In sum, the Torah/Law is fully a source)

We Torah observant folks fall somewhere in category three. We view proper faithful obedience as living like the Messiah, who Himself was Torah observant. Thus, maximizing our walking after the Messiah includes maximizing our Torah observance. Moreover, we view the Torah/Law as a legitimate source for faithful obedience as it is a reflection of the life and teachings of the Messiah. We also include the Messiah's expanded counsel and the leading of the Holy Spirit as legitimate sources for faithful obedience, and that none of these (Torah/Law, Messiah, Holy Spirit) should be in conflict with the other.

BibleGuy has lain out many supporting Scripture passages and theological ways of thinking to support Torah observance as a legitimate and necessary part of faithful obedience. This discussion would be most profitable if, moving forward, we all agreed that we are in agreement about the method to receive salvation, and started focusing on discussing the differences we have with regards to faithful obedience.

Blessings to you all.

thanks for the observations!

I mostly agree.

I've found the most edifying exchanges to be about practices.

 

[BibleGuy]

DEUTERONOMY 30:11 For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you or too distant.

what does Moses mean this day'?
and 'commandment' singular?




but something always seems to get tripped up along the way

THE ACTS 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

THE ACTS 15:10 Now therefore why do you tempt God, that you should put a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?





1 JOHN 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.

yes! fulfilling the commandments by loving one's neighbor isn't grievous... it takes a lifetime, but it's not grievous.

Hi there Dan_473,

You wrote: "what does Moses mean this day'?"

My response: Deuteronomy was evidently spoken pretty much all on a single day to the Israelites....hence the "this day".

You wrote: "and 'commandment' singular?"

My response: The term "commandment" is just another way to refer to Torah.

You wrote: "but something always seems to get tripped up along the way." (citing Ac. 15)

My response: There is no "tripping"...unless you ignore the CONTEXT of Acts 15.

Acts 15 is perfectly consistent with my position.

Why? Because there is NOTHING in the Torah of Moses that requires adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision AND Torah-obedience for the purpose of recognizing believing Gentiles as "saved" (Gr. "sodzo", Ac. 15:1,11).

Rather, it is through the grace of Jesus that we are saved (Ac. 15:11).

Does that mean saved Gentiles need not obey Torah or circumcise their children? Of course not! The point is simply that such acts are not required for recognition of believing Gentiles as SAVED. That's the context.

Remember, the same Paul (who was present at the Jerusalem Council of Ac. 15) told the Gentile-inclusive Corinthian congregation to KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19). And that same Paul told the Gentile-inclusive Roman congregation to not sin (Rom. 6:15) in the form of disobeying Torah (Torah-disobedience is sin, Rom. 3:20, 7:7).

And, Paul took a vow to PROVE his Torah-obedience (silencing his critics who falsely alleged that Paul was anti-Torah, Ac. 21). We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

Furthermore, what is the "yoke" of Ac. 15:10? It is surely NOT faithful Torah-obedience (because of Dt. 30:11-14, FAVORABLY cited at Rom. 10:8).

Then what is this yoke? It is the unbearable yoke of requiring circumcision AND Torah-obedience as a condition of being recognized as saved.

You see, first we are saved...and THEN we grow in faithful Torah-obedience. Some of these Pharisees (Ac. 15) had it backwards...wrongly requiring circumcision and Torah-obedience as a PREREQUISITE for being recognized as saved. These Pharisees had it backwards. First we are saved by grace...THEN we grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

This bogus Pharisee theology is something that Paul routinely battled and opposed in his epistles.

Think about it! WHERE does Torah require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (and Torah-obedience) as a prerequisite for being recognized as saved? NOWHERE! The Pharisees' theology (Ac. 15) was wrong on this point.

Does that mean Gentiles need not grow in faithful Torah-obedience AFTER salvation? Of course not...that was NOT even the topic of dispute in Ac. 15. The dispute pertained to conditions of recognition of salvation...not conditions which evidence growth in sanctification.

Furthermore, Paul, Peter, and James (ALL of whom were present in Ac. 15) contributed to the written NT Scriptures which jointly confirm that saved Gentiles SHOULD grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

Jesus PRAYED that we be sanctified (not saved) in Torah (Jn. 17:17).

So, if you want to use Ac. 15 to argue against the claim that Gentiles should grow in Torah, then you've got LOTS of explaining to do!

FINALLY, you wrote: "yes! fulfilling the commandments by loving one's neighbor isn't grievous... it takes a lifetime, but it's not grievous."

My response: CAREFUL! Let's not use the "love your neighbor" mantra as an excuse to NOT grow in faithful obedience to all presently observable Torah!

After all, we fulfill (not replace!) the commands by loving others...AND we love others by fulfilling (through obedience, not replacement!) the commands.

It goes BOTH ways.

We don't just say: "I'm loving towards others...so I don't need to worry about all those detailed Torah instructions." That's NOT the meaning expressed in Scripture.

Remember Mt. 5:19! Neglect and opposition to even the tiniest of Torah instructions (combined with teaching such neglect and opposition to others) will render you LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom of God.

Let's be careful...

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

thanks for the explanation!


the mind of the flesh would be human understanding, wouldn't it?

'...which means "Torah-obedience" (by the Spirit) must be good.'

the Spirit's understanding?

Hey there....

I could see how we might view "the mind of the flesh" as "human understanding WITHOUT THE SPIRIT".

But, let's not equate "the mind of the flesh" with "human understanding" in general. Why?

Because then the following problem occurs:

1. I understand Jesus is the Messiah.
2. Human understanding = the mind of the flesh (definition)
3. My knowledge of (1) is of the flesh (from 1 and 2)
4. That which is of the flesh is not of the Spirit (from the contrast in Rom. 8:7-9)
5. My knowledge of (1) is not of the Spirit (from 3 and 4)

And clearly, (5) is a rather transparently incorrect result.

So what's the solution? Revise the definition in (2) as follows: "mind of the flesh" = "human understanding WITHOUT THE SPIRIT".

Similar thing going on in Pr. 3:5-6. Should we TRULY reject EVERYTHING that we understand (Pr. 3:5)?

Of course not. Rather, we should reject understandings which are divorced from proper acknowledgement of YHVH in alignment with His straight paths (Pr. 3:6). Incidentally, this observation leads us straight back to Torah!

AND, Peter and Paul repeatedly quoted Proverbs as authoritative Scripture, applying it to us.

So, again, we find that the Torah-obedient Proverbs leads us to Torah, just as the apostolic authority of Peter and Paul (who applied Proverbs to us) requires that we recognize.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[redeemed2014]

I'm re-reading some of the posts here and trying to synthesize some of the information and differences in our beliefs and practices as followers of the Messiah. I think some of the differences claimed are not really differences but are simply misunderstandings. On the flip side, we will probably discover more legitimate differences between us as we further discuss.

I think the most obvious misunderstanding is incorrectly thinking that us Torah-observant folks think we are "saved" or obtain salvation by our obedience to the Father by following the commands. However, as BibleGuy has consistently said, that is not our position -- we agree with Paul when he said: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not from yourselves—it is the gift of God. It is not based on deeds, so that no one may boast." (Eph. 2:8-9, TLV). We believe we are saved through our trust in and the faithfulness of the Messiah, as a free gift from the Father, not dependent on any series of righteous works prior to salvation.

The crux of the conversation should shift to what faithful obedience for the saved believer looks like, since this is where our primary disagreement lies. From what I can tell from this thread, I've noticed at least three ways of thinking (though there are more out there):

1. Faithful obedience is following what is found in post-resurrection writings (namely, various part of Acts and all of the epistles/revelation that follow) and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position rejects much of the Gospels as being written to those "under the Law" and sometimes even the earlier portions of Acts. It also rejects most or all references to the Torah/Law as a source for faithful obedience, and justifies this position by stating that all the Torah/Law commands are summed up in one or two commands at stated and expanded upon in the New Testament. (In sum, the Torah/Law is not a source at all)

2. Faithful obedience is following all New Testament writings (including the Gospels and earlier portions of Acts) and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position finds more of the Gospels and earlier portions of Acts as applicable, and sometimes even considers parts (or rarely all) of the Torah/Law as sources for faithful obedience, to the extent that they are interpreted and carried out in a "Spiritual" manner only (as opposed to the physical manner or "letter"). (In sum, the Torah/Law is a source to a certain extent)

3. Faithful obedience is following all of the Torah/Law, both Old and New Testament sources, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position views the entire Torah/Law as a source for faithful obedience and maximizing Torah observance as a reflection of following the Messiah, who Himself was Torah observant. This position also holds that certain portions of the Torah/Law are not able to presently be carried out (e.g., there is no temple or functioning Levitical priesthood, being outside of the land of Israel, etc.), though these may or definitely will be restored and carried out in the future. It also maintains that, while there is a Spiritual aspect to the Torah/Law (cf. the Messiah's counsel on faithfully carrying out certain Torah/Law commands), the Spiritual aspect does not cancel out the physical aspect in most or all cases (e.g., we must not murder and also not have hate in our hearts, not one or the other). (In sum, the Torah/Law is fully a source)

We Torah observant folks fall somewhere in category three. We view proper faithful obedience as living like the Messiah, who Himself was Torah observant. Thus, maximizing our walking after the Messiah includes maximizing our Torah observance. Moreover, we view the Torah/Law as a legitimate source for faithful obedience as it is a reflection of the life and teachings of the Messiah. We also include the Messiah's expanded counsel and the leading of the Holy Spirit as legitimate sources for faithful obedience, and that none of these (Torah/Law, Messiah, Holy Spirit) should be in conflict with the other.

BibleGuy has lain out many supporting Scripture passages and theological ways of thinking to support Torah observance as a legitimate and necessary part of faithful obedience. This discussion would be most profitable if, moving forward, we all agreed that we are in agreement about the method to receive salvation, and started focusing on discussing the differences we have with regards to faithful obedience.

Blessings to you all.

I fall under category 1, but there are some things I would like to clear up if i may. (To avoid another round of running in circles) I am not saying you meant it this way but I would like to say that we do not reject any part of the scripture. I believe that yes Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, 1st part of acts were written to Jews under the law, but is also profitable for us. Never would I say that the Torah is not a source at all (again all scripture is profitable).

I believe that we are saved by the death, burial, and Resurrection of our dear Lord. Who became the perfect sacrifice that was accepted by God for all of our sins past, present, and future. A common misconception that I have seen on many posts and threads is that because our sins are not imputed to us, we believe we are able to go out and sin, break the commandments, live a life for the flesh. That is not true, once we have a salvation through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. We die to the flesh and live after the Spirit which will not guide us into breaking commandments, but will guide us into fruitful works. If there is not a change within the person there is a very good possibility that there was never a true salvation. Although only the Lord can see the true intent of the heart, so it is not my position to say if someone has or has not received a true salvation.

 

[BibleGuy]

no, I meant to ask who are the scribes and Pharisees today, in your view, because that's who Jesus is referring to.

I've heard Judaism today continues the Traditions of the Elders, Pharisees, Talmud.




if no one is sitting in the seat of Moses, then does everyone follow Torah as it is right in their own eyes?

can one person judge another person's Torah keeping?

Hi Dan,

Perhaps you could view some of the modern Judaisms as extensions of the 1st century "scribes and pharisees"...but there's been a LOT of history since then...not everything is the same.

You wrote: "if no one is sitting in the seat of Moses, then does everyone follow Torah as it is right in their own eyes?"

My response: Torah is not presently 100% functional, of course. So, we do the best we can, as the Spirit leads.

You wrote: "can one person judge another person's Torah keeping?"

My response: Those who refuse to carry on the Torah-obedient traditions that were passed on (2 Th. 3) should be shamed (2 Th. 3:14) and admonished (2 Th. 3:15). So our judgment of other's behavior does have a place.

We recognize false prophets by judging their fruit (Mt. 7). The Torah-disobedient false prophets will be cast away (Mt. 7:21-23). Frightfully, modern-day charismatic and Pentecostal circles are replete with such "prophets" and "prophecy".

You can't expose false apostles unless you judge their behavior. (Rev. 2:2).

So sure...you can judge others...if you do it the right way...

And, there are LOTS of people out there judging people the wrong way...unfortunately.

Not very popular passages to quote! But it's something we need to do...if necessary.

On the other hand...we've got a solid 1700 or so years of incorrect anti-Torah theology within the history of Christian theology...so we need to be patient...allowing the people (and the Spirit) the time required to grow.

I suspect it will be a few more centuries before Dt. 30:1-8 is finally fulfilled, for example.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[Dan_473]

Hi there Dan_473,

You wrote: "what does Moses mean this day'?"

My response: Deuteronomy was evidently spoken pretty much all on a single day to the Israelites....hence the "this day".

You wrote: "and 'commandment' singular?"

My response: The term "commandment" is just another way to refer to Torah.

You wrote: "but something always seems to get tripped up along the way." (citing Ac. 15)

My response: There is no "tripping"...unless you ignore the CONTEXT of Acts 15.

Acts 15 is perfectly consistent with my position.

Why? Because there is NOTHING in the Torah of Moses that requires adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision AND Torah-obedience for the purpose of recognizing believing Gentiles as "saved" (Gr. "sodzo", Ac. 15:1,11).

Rather, it is through the grace of Jesus that we are saved (Ac. 15:11).

Does that mean saved Gentiles need not obey Torah or circumcise their children? Of course not! The point is simply that such acts are not required for recognition of believing Gentiles as SAVED. That's the context.

Remember, the same Paul (who was present at the Jerusalem Council of Ac. 15) told the Gentile-inclusive Corinthian congregation to KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19). And that same Paul told the Gentile-inclusive Roman congregation to not sin (Rom. 6:15) in the form of disobeying Torah (Torah-disobedience is sin, Rom. 3:20, 7:7).

And, Paul took a vow to PROVE his Torah-obedience (silencing his critics who falsely alleged that Paul was anti-Torah, Ac. 21). We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

Furthermore, what is the "yoke" of Ac. 15:10? It is surely NOT faithful Torah-obedience (because of Dt. 30:11-14, FAVORABLY cited at Rom. 10:8).

Then what is this yoke? It is the unbearable yoke of requiring circumcision AND Torah-obedience as a condition of being recognized as saved.

You see, first we are saved...and THEN we grow in faithful Torah-obedience. Some of these Pharisees (Ac. 15) had it backwards...wrongly requiring circumcision and Torah-obedience as a PREREQUISITE for being recognized as saved. These Pharisees had it backwards. First we are saved by grace...THEN we grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

This bogus Pharisee theology is something that Paul routinely battled and opposed in his epistles.

Think about it! WHERE does Torah require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (and Torah-obedience) as a prerequisite for being recognized as saved? NOWHERE! The Pharisees' theology (Ac. 15) was wrong on this point.

Does that mean Gentiles need not grow in faithful Torah-obedience AFTER salvation? Of course not...that was NOT even the topic of dispute in Ac. 15. The dispute pertained to conditions of recognition of salvation...not conditions which evidence growth in sanctification.

Furthermore, Paul, Peter, and James (ALL of whom were present in Ac. 15) contributed to the written NT Scriptures which jointly confirm that saved Gentiles SHOULD grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

Jesus PRAYED that we be sanctified (not saved) in Torah (Jn. 17:17).

So, if you want to use Ac. 15 to argue against the claim that Gentiles should grow in Torah, then you've got LOTS of explaining to do!

FINALLY, you wrote: "yes! fulfilling the commandments by loving one's neighbor isn't grievous... it takes a lifetime, but it's not grievous."

My response: CAREFUL! Let's not use the "love your neighbor" mantra as an excuse to NOT grow in faithful obedience to all presently observable Torah!

After all, we fulfill (not replace!) the commands by loving others...AND we love others by fulfilling (through obedience, not replacement!) the commands.

It goes BOTH ways.

We don't just say: "I'm loving towards others...so I don't need to worry about all those detailed Torah instructions." That's NOT the meaning expressed in Scripture.

Remember Mt. 5:19! Neglect and opposition to even the tiniest of Torah instructions (combined with teaching such neglect and opposition to others) will render you LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom of God.

Let's be careful...

best...
BibleGuy

'Deuteronomy was evidently spoken pretty much all on a single day to the Israelites....hence the "this day".'

Did Moses recite all of Torah in that one day?


' The term "commandment" is just another way to refer to Torah.'

Right, Torah referred to as a single commandment. To me this says that Torah can't be broken up into We currently do this part, but not this part... It's a single commandment.



' Because there is NOTHING in the Torah of Moses that requires adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision AND Torah-obedience for the purpose of recognizing believing Gentiles as "saved" (Gr. "sodzo", Ac. 15:1,11).'

Does Torah talk about gentiles being saved?

 

[Dan_473]

Hi there Dan_473,

You wrote: "what does Moses mean this day'?"

My response: Deuteronomy was evidently spoken pretty much all on a single day to the Israelites....hence the "this day".

You wrote: "and 'commandment' singular?"

My response: The term "commandment" is just another way to refer to Torah.

You wrote: "but something always seems to get tripped up along the way." (citing Ac. 15)

My response: There is no "tripping"...unless you ignore the CONTEXT of Acts 15.

Acts 15 is perfectly consistent with my position.

Why? Because there is NOTHING in the Torah of Moses that requires adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision AND Torah-obedience for the purpose of recognizing believing Gentiles as "saved" (Gr. "sodzo", Ac. 15:1,11).

Rather, it is through the grace of Jesus that we are saved (Ac. 15:11).

Does that mean saved Gentiles need not obey Torah or circumcise their children? Of course not! The point is simply that such acts are not required for recognition of believing Gentiles as SAVED. That's the context.

Remember, the same Paul (who was present at the Jerusalem Council of Ac. 15) told the Gentile-inclusive Corinthian congregation to KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19). And that same Paul told the Gentile-inclusive Roman congregation to not sin (Rom. 6:15) in the form of disobeying Torah (Torah-disobedience is sin, Rom. 3:20, 7:7).

And, Paul took a vow to PROVE his Torah-obedience (silencing his critics who falsely alleged that Paul was anti-Torah, Ac. 21). We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

Furthermore, what is the "yoke" of Ac. 15:10? It is surely NOT faithful Torah-obedience (because of Dt. 30:11-14, FAVORABLY cited at Rom. 10:8).

Then what is this yoke? It is the unbearable yoke of requiring circumcision AND Torah-obedience as a condition of being recognized as saved.

You see, first we are saved...and THEN we grow in faithful Torah-obedience. Some of these Pharisees (Ac. 15) had it backwards...wrongly requiring circumcision and Torah-obedience as a PREREQUISITE for being recognized as saved. These Pharisees had it backwards. First we are saved by grace...THEN we grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

This bogus Pharisee theology is something that Paul routinely battled and opposed in his epistles.

Think about it! WHERE does Torah require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (and Torah-obedience) as a prerequisite for being recognized as saved? NOWHERE! The Pharisees' theology (Ac. 15) was wrong on this point.

Does that mean Gentiles need not grow in faithful Torah-obedience AFTER salvation? Of course not...that was NOT even the topic of dispute in Ac. 15. The dispute pertained to conditions of recognition of salvation...not conditions which evidence growth in sanctification.

Furthermore, Paul, Peter, and James (ALL of whom were present in Ac. 15) contributed to the written NT Scriptures which jointly confirm that saved Gentiles SHOULD grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

Jesus PRAYED that we be sanctified (not saved) in Torah (Jn. 17:17).

So, if you want to use Ac. 15 to argue against the claim that Gentiles should grow in Torah, then you've got LOTS of explaining to do!

FINALLY, you wrote: "yes! fulfilling the commandments by loving one's neighbor isn't grievous... it takes a lifetime, but it's not grievous."

My response: CAREFUL! Let's not use the "love your neighbor" mantra as an excuse to NOT grow in faithful obedience to all presently observable Torah!

After all, we fulfill (not replace!) the commands by loving others...AND we love others by fulfilling (through obedience, not replacement!) the commands.

It goes BOTH ways.

We don't just say: "I'm loving towards others...so I don't need to worry about all those detailed Torah instructions." That's NOT the meaning expressed in Scripture.

Remember Mt. 5:19! Neglect and opposition to even the tiniest of Torah instructions (combined with teaching such neglect and opposition to others) will render you LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom of God.

Let's be careful...

best...
BibleGuy

'And, Paul took a vow to PROVE his Torah-obedience (silencing his critics who falsely alleged that Paul was anti-Torah, Ac. 21).'

THE ACTS 21:21 They have been informed about you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs.

the rumor was that Paul taught 'Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses'

THE ACTS 21:25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written our decision that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from food offered to idols, from blood, from strangled things, and from sexual immorality.”

 

[Dino246]

I have one question for the pro-Torah-obedience folks... how do you deal with Paul's message in Galatians (specifically 3:3, 3:5, and 3:10)? That looks to me to be a trump card against your position. Galatians 5:18 only clarifies the point: "If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." Also, James 2:10 states, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." The Law (Torah) is a unit; you either keep the whole unit or you don't. There is no middle ground.

 

[Dan_473]

Hi there Dan_473,

You wrote: "what does Moses mean this day'?"

My response: Deuteronomy was evidently spoken pretty much all on a single day to the Israelites....hence the "this day".

You wrote: "and 'commandment' singular?"

My response: The term "commandment" is just another way to refer to Torah.

You wrote: "but something always seems to get tripped up along the way." (citing Ac. 15)

My response: There is no "tripping"...unless you ignore the CONTEXT of Acts 15.

Acts 15 is perfectly consistent with my position.

Why? Because there is NOTHING in the Torah of Moses that requires adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision AND Torah-obedience for the purpose of recognizing believing Gentiles as "saved" (Gr. "sodzo", Ac. 15:1,11).

Rather, it is through the grace of Jesus that we are saved (Ac. 15:11).

Does that mean saved Gentiles need not obey Torah or circumcise their children? Of course not! The point is simply that such acts are not required for recognition of believing Gentiles as SAVED. That's the context.

Remember, the same Paul (who was present at the Jerusalem Council of Ac. 15) told the Gentile-inclusive Corinthian congregation to KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19). And that same Paul told the Gentile-inclusive Roman congregation to not sin (Rom. 6:15) in the form of disobeying Torah (Torah-disobedience is sin, Rom. 3:20, 7:7).

And, Paul took a vow to PROVE his Torah-obedience (silencing his critics who falsely alleged that Paul was anti-Torah, Ac. 21). We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

Furthermore, what is the "yoke" of Ac. 15:10? It is surely NOT faithful Torah-obedience (because of Dt. 30:11-14, FAVORABLY cited at Rom. 10:8).

Then what is this yoke? It is the unbearable yoke of requiring circumcision AND Torah-obedience as a condition of being recognized as saved.

You see, first we are saved...and THEN we grow in faithful Torah-obedience. Some of these Pharisees (Ac. 15) had it backwards...wrongly requiring circumcision and Torah-obedience as a PREREQUISITE for being recognized as saved. These Pharisees had it backwards. First we are saved by grace...THEN we grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

This bogus Pharisee theology is something that Paul routinely battled and opposed in his epistles.

Think about it! WHERE does Torah require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (and Torah-obedience) as a prerequisite for being recognized as saved? NOWHERE! The Pharisees' theology (Ac. 15) was wrong on this point.

Does that mean Gentiles need not grow in faithful Torah-obedience AFTER salvation? Of course not...that was NOT even the topic of dispute in Ac. 15. The dispute pertained to conditions of recognition of salvation...not conditions which evidence growth in sanctification.

Furthermore, Paul, Peter, and James (ALL of whom were present in Ac. 15) contributed to the written NT Scriptures which jointly confirm that saved Gentiles SHOULD grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

Jesus PRAYED that we be sanctified (not saved) in Torah (Jn. 17:17).

So, if you want to use Ac. 15 to argue against the claim that Gentiles should grow in Torah, then you've got LOTS of explaining to do!

FINALLY, you wrote: "yes! fulfilling the commandments by loving one's neighbor isn't grievous... it takes a lifetime, but it's not grievous."

My response: CAREFUL! Let's not use the "love your neighbor" mantra as an excuse to NOT grow in faithful obedience to all presently observable Torah!

After all, we fulfill (not replace!) the commands by loving others...AND we love others by fulfilling (through obedience, not replacement!) the commands.

It goes BOTH ways.

We don't just say: "I'm loving towards others...so I don't need to worry about all those detailed Torah instructions." That's NOT the meaning expressed in Scripture.

Remember Mt. 5:19! Neglect and opposition to even the tiniest of Torah instructions (combined with teaching such neglect and opposition to others) will render you LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom of God.

Let's be careful...

best...
BibleGuy

'Furthermore, Paul, Peter, and James (ALL of whom were present in Ac. 15) contributed to the written NT Scriptures which jointly confirm that saved Gentiles SHOULD grow in faithful Torah-obedience.'

THE ACTS 21:24 ...you yourself also walk keeping the law.

James says that Paul is currently keeping the law

THE ACTS 21:25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written our decision that they should observe no such thing'

 

[Dan_473]

Hi there Dan_473,

You wrote: "what does Moses mean this day'?"

My response: Deuteronomy was evidently spoken pretty much all on a single day to the Israelites....hence the "this day".

You wrote: "and 'commandment' singular?"

My response: The term "commandment" is just another way to refer to Torah.

You wrote: "but something always seems to get tripped up along the way." (citing Ac. 15)

My response: There is no "tripping"...unless you ignore the CONTEXT of Acts 15.

Acts 15 is perfectly consistent with my position.

Why? Because there is NOTHING in the Torah of Moses that requires adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision AND Torah-obedience for the purpose of recognizing believing Gentiles as "saved" (Gr. "sodzo", Ac. 15:1,11).

Rather, it is through the grace of Jesus that we are saved (Ac. 15:11).

Does that mean saved Gentiles need not obey Torah or circumcise their children? Of course not! The point is simply that such acts are not required for recognition of believing Gentiles as SAVED. That's the context.

Remember, the same Paul (who was present at the Jerusalem Council of Ac. 15) told the Gentile-inclusive Corinthian congregation to KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19). And that same Paul told the Gentile-inclusive Roman congregation to not sin (Rom. 6:15) in the form of disobeying Torah (Torah-disobedience is sin, Rom. 3:20, 7:7).

And, Paul took a vow to PROVE his Torah-obedience (silencing his critics who falsely alleged that Paul was anti-Torah, Ac. 21). We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

Furthermore, what is the "yoke" of Ac. 15:10? It is surely NOT faithful Torah-obedience (because of Dt. 30:11-14, FAVORABLY cited at Rom. 10:8).

Then what is this yoke? It is the unbearable yoke of requiring circumcision AND Torah-obedience as a condition of being recognized as saved.

You see, first we are saved...and THEN we grow in faithful Torah-obedience. Some of these Pharisees (Ac. 15) had it backwards...wrongly requiring circumcision and Torah-obedience as a PREREQUISITE for being recognized as saved. These Pharisees had it backwards. First we are saved by grace...THEN we grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

This bogus Pharisee theology is something that Paul routinely battled and opposed in his epistles.

Think about it! WHERE does Torah require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (and Torah-obedience) as a prerequisite for being recognized as saved? NOWHERE! The Pharisees' theology (Ac. 15) was wrong on this point.

Does that mean Gentiles need not grow in faithful Torah-obedience AFTER salvation? Of course not...that was NOT even the topic of dispute in Ac. 15. The dispute pertained to conditions of recognition of salvation...not conditions which evidence growth in sanctification.

Furthermore, Paul, Peter, and James (ALL of whom were present in Ac. 15) contributed to the written NT Scriptures which jointly confirm that saved Gentiles SHOULD grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

Jesus PRAYED that we be sanctified (not saved) in Torah (Jn. 17:17).

So, if you want to use Ac. 15 to argue against the claim that Gentiles should grow in Torah, then you've got LOTS of explaining to do!

FINALLY, you wrote: "yes! fulfilling the commandments by loving one's neighbor isn't grievous... it takes a lifetime, but it's not grievous."

My response: CAREFUL! Let's not use the "love your neighbor" mantra as an excuse to NOT grow in faithful obedience to all presently observable Torah!

After all, we fulfill (not replace!) the commands by loving others...AND we love others by fulfilling (through obedience, not replacement!) the commands.

It goes BOTH ways.

We don't just say: "I'm loving towards others...so I don't need to worry about all those detailed Torah instructions." That's NOT the meaning expressed in Scripture.

Remember Mt. 5:19! Neglect and opposition to even the tiniest of Torah instructions (combined with teaching such neglect and opposition to others) will render you LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom of God.

Let's be careful...

best...
BibleGuy

'My response: CAREFUL! Let's not use the "love your neighbor" mantra as an excuse to NOT grow in faithful obedience to all presently observable Torah!'

I don't think calling "love your neighbor" a 'mantra' fits with the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Dan_473]

Hey there....

I could see how we might view "the mind of the flesh" as "human understanding WITHOUT THE SPIRIT".

But, let's not equate "the mind of the flesh" with "human understanding" in general. Why?

Because then the following problem occurs:

1. I understand Jesus is the Messiah.
2. Human understanding = the mind of the flesh (definition)
3. My knowledge of (1) is of the flesh (from 1 and 2)
4. That which is of the flesh is not of the Spirit (from the contrast in Rom. 8:7-9)
5. My knowledge of (1) is not of the Spirit (from 3 and 4)

And clearly, (5) is a rather transparently incorrect result.

So what's the solution? Revise the definition in (2) as follows: "mind of the flesh" = "human understanding WITHOUT THE SPIRIT".

Similar thing going on in Pr. 3:5-6. Should we TRULY reject EVERYTHING that we understand (Pr. 3:5)?

Of course not. Rather, we should reject understandings which are divorced from proper acknowledgement of YHVH in alignment with His straight paths (Pr. 3:6). Incidentally, this observation leads us straight back to Torah!

AND, Peter and Paul repeatedly quoted Proverbs as authoritative Scripture, applying it to us.

So, again, we find that the Torah-obedient Proverbs leads us to Torah, just as the apostolic authority of Peter and Paul (who applied Proverbs to us) requires that we recognize.

blessings...
BibleGuy

"human understanding WITHOUT THE SPIRIT".

yes, an atheist can read Torah and say what actions should be done. only the spirit can say what it means.



'Incidentally, this observation leads us straight back to Torah!'

very true! as the Spirit understands it

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan,

Perhaps you could view some of the modern Judaisms as extensions of the 1st century "scribes and pharisees"...but there's been a LOT of history since then...not everything is the same.

You wrote: "if no one is sitting in the seat of Moses, then does everyone follow Torah as it is right in their own eyes?"

My response: Torah is not presently 100% functional, of course. So, we do the best we can, as the Spirit leads.

You wrote: "can one person judge another person's Torah keeping?"

My response: Those who refuse to carry on the Torah-obedient traditions that were passed on (2 Th. 3) should be shamed (2 Th. 3:14) and admonished (2 Th. 3:15). So our judgment of other's behavior does have a place.

We recognize false prophets by judging their fruit (Mt. 7). The Torah-disobedient false prophets will be cast away (Mt. 7:21-23). Frightfully, modern-day charismatic and Pentecostal circles are replete with such "prophets" and "prophecy".

You can't expose false apostles unless you judge their behavior. (Rev. 2:2).

So sure...you can judge others...if you do it the right way...

And, there are LOTS of people out there judging people the wrong way...unfortunately.

Not very popular passages to quote! But it's something we need to do...if necessary.

On the other hand...we've got a solid 1700 or so years of incorrect anti-Torah theology within the history of Christian theology...so we need to be patient...allowing the people (and the Spirit) the time required to grow.

I suspect it will be a few more centuries before Dt. 30:1-8 is finally fulfilled, for example.

blessings...
BibleGuy

' Perhaps you could view some of the modern Judaisms as extensions of the 1st century "scribes and pharisees"...but there's been a LOT of history since then...not everything is the same.'

the pharisees accepted the written law and the traditions of the elders. today's rabbis follow the written law and the Talmud, which is traditions of the elders.

do you believe rambam sat in the seat of moses?



' Those who refuse to carry on the Torah-obedient traditions that were passed on...'

passed on by who? (honestly trying to follow the logic here) the rabbis, or some other tradition?

 

[redeemed2014]

'Furthermore, Paul, Peter, and James (ALL of whom were present in Ac. 15) contributed to the written NT Scriptures which jointly confirm that saved Gentiles SHOULD grow in faithful Torah-obedience.'

THE ACTS 21:24 ...you yourself also walk keeping the law.

James says that Paul is currently keeping the law

THE ACTS 21:25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written our decision that they should observe no such thing'

In addition Please read all of Acts 21:

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Verse 19 was talking about how Paul declared what God has done with the Gentiles by his ministry. In the following verses, The Jews at the temple Paul was in stated that there are thousands of Jews which believe and are still under the law. Verse 21 is saying that Paul was teaching against the law/customs of the Jew. And if you go past verse 25 onto the rest of the chapter you will see that the Jews beat Paul were going to kill him and then arrested him. Then we can also go into Chapter 22 of Acts where Paul is admonishing the Jews for doing exactly what Saul of Tarsus was doing (Paul) before he was saved on the road to Damascus.

Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

What did Paul testify to the Jews? His conversion in Damascus, Now lets go to Acts 26 to see what Paul testified to Rome.

In part of his testimony to the Romans look at verse 18 which was the Lord Jesus Christs' words to Paul

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

God Bless

 

[Dan_473]

In addition Please read all of Acts 21:

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Verse 19 was talking about how Paul declared what God has done with the Gentiles by his ministry. In the following verses, The Jews at the temple Paul was in stated that there are thousands of Jews which believe and are still under the law. Verse 21 is saying that Paul was teaching against the law/customs of the Jew. And if you go past verse 25 onto the rest of the chapter you will see that the Jews beat Paul were going to kill him and then arrested him. Then we can also go into Chapter 22 of Acts where Paul is admonishing the Jews for doing exactly what Saul of Tarsus was doing (Paul) before he was saved on the road to Damascus.

Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

What did Paul testify to the Jews? His conversion in Damascus, Now lets go to Acts 26 to see what Paul testified to Rome.

In part of his testimony to the Romans look at verse 18 which was the Lord Jesus Christs' words to Paul

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

God Bless

not sure I'm following you...

'...Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law.'

in some cases, believers will keep the law.

but for the most part,
'THE ACTS 21:25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written our decision that they should observe no such thing'

 

[redeemed2014]

not sure I'm following you...

'...Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law.'

in some cases, believers will keep the law.

but for the most part,
'THE ACTS 21:25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written our decision that they should observe no such thing'

Yes, I was furthering the point that the Jews that Paul was speaking to were trying to tell him that the gentiles were supposed to also follow the law. They beat/arrested Paul for teaching to the contrary to that.

Just to clarify I am using the KJV and in Acts 21:25 it says As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing. ​I am not sure if you are using a different translation bible then I am. But in context to the rest of the chapter and following chapter, the Jews have taken note that the gentile believers are not following law/tradition of Judaism, except for keeping themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood etc. Which comes from Acts 15:28-29, they were told to abstain from these things so they do not give offence to Jews.

I'm agreeing with you but I'm not sure if I am not making it clear. If not I apologize and please let me know.

God Bless