House of Cornelius and the law

[BibleGuy]

'Deuteronomy was evidently spoken pretty much all on a single day to the Israelites....hence the "this day".'

Did Moses recite all of Torah in that one day?


' The term "commandment" is just another way to refer to Torah.'

Right, Torah referred to as a single commandment. To me this says that Torah can't be broken up into We currently do this part, but not this part... It's a single commandment.



' Because there is NOTHING in the Torah of Moses that requires adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision AND Torah-obedience for the purpose of recognizing believing Gentiles as "saved" (Gr. "sodzo", Ac. 15:1,11).'

Does Torah talk about gentiles being saved?

Hi Dan,

You wrote: "Did Moses recite all of Torah in that one day?"

My response: No. Exodus 12, for example, occurred back in Egypt. Dt. 34 was written posthumously.

You wrote: "Right, Torah referred to as a single commandment. To me this says that Torah can't be broken up into We currently do this part, but not this part... It's a single commandment."

My response: No. When the House of Judah went into Babylonian captivity, they surely did NOT say to themselves: "Well guys...we can't obey 100% of Torah right now...so that means we can't obey ANY of it...not even Lev. 18 or Lev. 19:18 or Dt. 6:4-5...or Ex. 20:13...."

See the point?

Sure, when you are in diaspora, you can't obey all Torah...but that's no excuse to disobey observable portions.

Furthermore, Moses PROPHESIED that Israel would:

1. Be scattered around the world (Dt. 30:1).
2. Return to YHVH in obedience to Torah commands (Dt. 30:2).
3. Return to the land. (Dt. 30:5)
4. Obey 100% of all Torah again (Dt. 30:8).

This prophecy PROVES that Torah-obedience returns to the people of God (#2) BEFORE the diaspora ends (#4).

Thus, it proves that we (the people of Israel) CAN and SHOULD and WILL obey Torah (before diaspora ends), even though 100% of Torah will not be observable again until after diaspora ends.

There has been rapid growth (the past 50 years) in recognition of our need to be growing in Torah.

I take this as evidence that the prophecy of Dt. 30:1-8 is not too far off from fulfillment...maybe only a few more centuries to go!

You wrote: "Does Torah talk about gentiles being saved?"

My response: Israel is uniquely saved by YHVH (Dt. 33:29).

Christians (even Gentile Christians) are not excluded from Israel (Eph. 2:12), but are included as fellow Israelites.

Gentile believers in Israel have been included in Israel as fellow Israelites, even since Dt. 29:10-13, with the expectation that they would obey Torah (Dt. 31:12). Isaiah agrees (Is. 56), and Jesus verifies the perpetuity of this truth (Mt. 21:13 zealously citing the ongoing force of Is. 56).

So "yes"...Gentiles in Israel are saved, participate in the covenants, are fellow citizens in the community, are fellow heirs who share in the promised inheritance in the land, and are expected to obey the Torah of the covenants in which they participate. Torah-obedient (and Torah-teaching) Paul affirms these same truths in Eph. 2 and Eph. 3.

Hope that helps!

BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

'And, Paul took a vow to PROVE his Torah-obedience (silencing his critics who falsely alleged that Paul was anti-Torah, Ac. 21).'

THE ACTS 21:21 They have been informed about you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs.

the rumor was that Paul taught 'Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses'

THE ACTS 21:25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written our decision that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from food offered to idols, from blood, from strangled things, and from sexual immorality.”

Hi Dan_473,

I'm GLAD you brought this up!

It gives me an opportunity to clear up another common misconception.

FIRST, you evidently AGREE that Ac. 21 confirms that Paul taught believing (i.e., "Christian") Jews to NOT forsake Moses (or Torah, in general). Right?

If so, then we have ALREADY disconfirmed the past 1700 years or so of anti-Torah Christian theology!

When is the last time you heard a Christian sermon that emphasized that Paul TAUGHT that Jewish Christians (even today) should be circumcising their 8-day-old males in obedience to Torah (just as Paul Taught)? We don't hear this in traditional Christian circles, right? That's because our traditional Christian establishment (wrongly) thinks of Paul as being generally anti-Torah.

You see, since Paul taught the Jewish Christians to obey Torah, it already proves that Torah CONTINUES to function even in the New Covenant era, EVEN FOR CHRISTIANS! This is a HUGE point to emphasize to our fellow Christians...since we Christians tend to (wrongly) think about Torah as if it is old, expired, passed away, abolished, terminated, not applicable, etc.

So, at the very least, we must now agree that JEWISH Christians who become saved SHOULD also obey Torah (just as Paul taught).


SECOND, Ac. 21:25 is just a recap of the Ac. 15 ruling, where I already showed that the list of 4 commands (i.e., no idols, no blood, no strangled things, no sexual immorality) were designed as conditions required for recognition of SAVED Gentiles (see "sodzo" in Ac. 15).

So, the 4 commands are NOT a complete list of everything a Gentile Christian should be doing! It's simply a list of requirements for being recognized as SAVED. Thus, the Ac. 15 ruling (cited again in Ac. 21) does NOTHING to disconfirm the claim that Gentile Christians (after being saved) should grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

So, since the four commands are NOT a description of what a fully sanctified Gentile Christian looks like, it follows that the four commands are NOT evidence that fully sanctified Gentile Christians should not be full-grown in faithful Torah-obedience.


THIRD, let's be careful to NOT base our theology on a questionable textual variant. You see, the phrase "that they should observe no such thing, except..." is not even in the Critical Text of Ac. 21:25. (Just compare the NASB and KJV, and you'll see!) AND, that phrase appears in none of the texts of Ac. 15:20.

So again...let's not attempt to construct a significant theological doctrine from a disputed textual variant which doesn't even appear in Ac. 15 (from whence it came), and which is contrary to the commands of the Father, Son, Spirit, Pentateuch, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, Epistles...even Revelation!

Hope this helps...

BibleGuy

 

[garee]

Hello,

You wrote: "So then you will not be found with any righteousness according to the law, nothing ? Is that what you are saying? ?"

My response: Good question. But remember! There are TWO facets to righteousness:

1. Faith-righteousness.
2. Works-righteousness.

We need BOTH!

Yes the two are one. “Inseparable”. Just as the father and the Son. As Christ said; the father and I are one

You wrote...Faith-righteousness (apart from faithless works) saves us (Eph. 2:8-9), granting us free ENTRANCE into the coming kingdom. Works-righteousness necessarily accompanies faith (Jas. 2:17), and determines our POSITION in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).[/QUOTE]

The same hearing of faith, the first work of God working in us works in us to the end to both will and do His good pleasure..We do not begin by His Spirit through the hearing of His faith and then try and justify our own self by thinking we could keepHis perfect law perfectly according to keeping the whole law without stumbling at any point. Seeing to violate it at any point is to be found guilty of violating the whole Torah. Law of God ,not of Moses.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:2

Faith is works righteousness system. That work is exclusively in respect to the “faith of Christ” (not of our own selves) ,according to His labor of love. Again, it’s just not of our selves lest any man boast in false pride.

No person can separate the faith of God from the works of the Spirit of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God..

By faith (believing) our faithful Creator said; let there be and there was. Now if he would say the words; Let there be. and it would not create the substance he hoped for.... it would be dead. Just as our bodies made up of water and dust without the Spirit life he breathed into us would be dead also and could not work.. It is why I believe we are to call Him out faithful Creator . because of his ability unlike the creature able to create a new by believing he can and exercising that hope by saying the words.

Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

You wrote...So you can stop accusing me of trying to earn entrance into heaven! That's never been by position.

Sorry, It’s not my goal to accuse anyone. After all we do not wrestles against flesh and blood ,brother .I am sharing my private interpretation as a personal commentary as to what I believe the Holy Spirit is teaching me. Just as anyone who calls themselves a Christian. I would hope.

You wrote...BUT, you can DEFINITELY accuse me of claiming that our position in the kingdom depends upon our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching (Mt. 5:19).

Yes, it depends on guarding it with all our heart soul and mind .No man keep it perfectly without stumbling in the least. So it is a good goal seeing some use it for a license to sin .We need the B word “balance” somewhere in the middle where ever that is.

You wrote..There are some who will be saved, but without reward (1 Cor. 3:15). Who would want that?

Sorry, I would not agree with your conclusion to that verse.....The works that go up in smoke is the bringing of the gospel.

Those who reject the hearing of faith the gospel of their salvation, cause the foot work to go up in smoke. They would be the ones we are to shake the dust off our sandals figuratively speaking. Christ is the rewarder as the one who pays the wage. He earned it through His work of faith as a three day labor of His love. It is not of us in any way shape or form. Everyone gets the same reward of His work of faith. “Eternal life”. We can see that in the parable of the worker in the fields.

The promised wage was one cent .It equaled salvation. It did not matter on how long a person worked and therefore how much work they performed they all got the same reward 1 penny, which equals eternal life. God is no respecter of persons
If Christ has begun the good work of salvation in a believer he will simply finish it just as he promises he will.

You wrote...So let's grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the covenants in which we participate!

Amen.

You wrote....Our law-righteousness does not grant us entrance into the kingdom...but it grants us reward WITHIN the kingdom.

Yes it’s the righteousness of Christ that comes from his labor of Love. It’s what grants us a way into His kingdom as the same way it keeps us in.....by grace through the faith of Christ .The anointing Holy Spirit of God.

You wrote: "There was no hearing of faith connected to the clay(Moses or Elijah)."

My response: Paul said that Torah-obedient faith (Dt. 30:14) IS the word of faith he preached (Dt. 30:14 is favorably cited in Rom. 10:8). So, proper Torah-obedience is FAITHFUL Torah-obedience, just as Paul likewise preached.

It’s not connected to Paul either its connect to the person from who the faith comes from .The faith of Christ. If we have that faith of God in respect to persons we have blasphemed the Holy name we are called by. Remember there are two kinds of faith that of God and those of men.

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not “the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory”, with respect of persons.

Some translations say which I believe changes the direction intended, faith in Christ and not generated from in as of Christ. .
That's the other kind of faith or men towards him indicating we have heard His word coming from a living faith working towards us so that we can believe Him who has no form.. The things of men must be distinguished from the things of God. I believe it’s where the father of lies, the god of this world get his foot in the door.

The conclusion in respect to those who do have the faith of Christ in respect to persons.....

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

You wrote...David was a hero of FAITH...but he also obeyed Torah.

One of my favorites heroes moved by the faith of God. .But he did not have the faith needed to please God working in him in respect to his own self. The imputed faith of Christ that worked in David to both will and do the good pleasure of God and not his own will... is the same mutual faith for all believer as a gift to us and those it effects mutually.

We can see the mutual faith of God that comes from hearing his word effectively exercising His gift that both the giver the receiver

Note....(purple in parentheses) by personal commantary to help empohasize a point I am trying to make.

For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be recognized ; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith (Christ's) both of you and me.. Rom 1:11 (Not of their own selves)

By the faith of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God enabled Abel to offer unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

You wrote....Abraham was a man of FAITH...but he also obeyed Torah.Let us do likewise.

Amen. But did he keep it perfectly without stumbling at any point that would prevent him from entering the promised land with the rest of the Israelite's in the dessert?

You wrote: "Remember the wage of one sin is eternal damnation, never to rise to new spirit life forever more."

My response: No. Moses sinned. But Moses is NOT in eternal damnation.

The faith of Christ worked in Moses in the same way as any saint who has been set aside by God for his doing of the good pleasure of His eternal will .

Christ who lived in Moses was shown the gospel according to the suffering of Christ beforehand just as he did with every Old testament saint.

They in effect received the salvation of their souls in the same way we do today, we just look back.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the "salvation of your souls".Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:9

Moses was shown of not entering the promised land which represented the eternal land the new heavens and earth . Was it because he was not obedient to the Torah?

 

[BibleGuy]

I have one question for the pro-Torah-obedience folks... how do you deal with Paul's message in Galatians (specifically 3:3, 3:5, and 3:10)? That looks to me to be a trump card against your position. Galatians 5:18 only clarifies the point: "If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." Also, James 2:10 states, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." The Law (Torah) is a unit; you either keep the whole unit or you don't. There is no middle ground.

Hello Dino246,

Thanks for joining the chat!

Maybe others have already answered you (I haven't checked down to the bottom of this thread yet...I just go through it one at a time...)

But as a "pro-Torah" guy...here's my answer.

Regarding Gal. 3:2-3, Paul equates "flesh" with "works of the law".

BUT, Paul's use of "flesh" there refers to FAITHLESS works of the law, not FAITHFUL works of the law.

So sure, Paul (and I) reject FAITHLESS works of the law. But Paul (and I) teach FAITHFUL works of the law.

Again, Gal. 3:5 confirms that Paul's phrase "works of the law" is a reference to FAITHLESS works of the law. But, that doesn't prove that Paul opposed FAITHFUL works of the law. See the difference?

So, since Paul is talking about FAITHLESS works of the law...well...he tells the Galatians that if you seriously want to play the "let's try to be justified by Torah without faith" game, then you MUST obey 100% of Torah at all times (without a single sin). Paul is showing the logical consequence of this game. Paul shows that no one could ever play this game successfully.

BUT, does Torah, itself, require that this game be played? Absolutely not. There is nothing in Torah that requires that people NOT have faith.

Therefore, Paul (in Galatians) is critiquing INCORRECT Torah theology, not CORRECT Torah theology.

Remember? Paul's critique is based on the Galatians' bogus claim that they could be justified by law (Gal. 5:4) rather than by faith (Gal. 5:5). But the Torah never says anyone is justified by law without faith!

NOW, Gal. 5:18 merely confirms that we should not be "under the law" in the sense which Paul says is bad. That is, we should not be "under the law" so as to be seeking to be justified by law (Gal. 5:4) rather than by faith (Gal. 5:5).

But, this is NO evidence that we should not be obeying Torah faithfully! That's a completely different issue.

And Paul AFFIRMS that Torah should be faithfully obeyed in MANY MANY locations.

For example, Gal. 3:11 equates faith (Gr. "pistis") with faithfulness ("emunah", Hab. 2:4). And what is this way of "emunah" by which Paul says we should be living? TORAH! (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138). Thus we're not surprised to see that Torah-obedient Torah-teaching Paul commands us to ADMONISH others with the Torah-obedient Psalms (Col. 3:16).

Another example: Rom. 8:7-9 sets up a contrast between "flesh" and "spirit". And here, the "flesh" can NOT obey Torah (Rom. 8:7-8). So, the Spirit (by contrast) must lead us to OBEY Torah (Rom. 8:9).

Another example: Paul says that the Torah-obedient passage in Dt. 30:14 IS the word of faith he preaches (FAVORABLY citing Dt. 30:14 in Rom. 10:8). Again, this confirms that Paul taught faithful Torah-obedience, NOT faithless Torah-obedience.

(I could add dozens of additional examples!)


Finally, you wrote: "Also, James 2:10 states, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." The Law (Torah) is a unit; you either keep the whole unit or you don't. There is no middle ground."

My response: So when Judah was in Babylonian captivity, they were unable to obey Torah 100%, right? So that means they could freely disobey Lev. 18:23? Lev. 19:18? Ex. 20:13? Ok...of course not! Right?

AND, Moses PROPHESIED that we (Israel) would repent in obedience to Torah commands while in diaspora (Dt. 30:2), yet not fully obey 100% of Torah again (Dt. 30:8) until AFTER diaspora ends (Dt. 30:5). Again, this confirms that we CAN and SHOULD and WILL obey observable Torah portions, even though 100% of Torah is not observable until our diaspora ends.

Sure, there is a sense in which all sins are equally bad (Jas. 2:10), but that doesn't prove that we can not obey Torah blamelessly. And, that doesn't prove that we should not grow in faithful obedience to the very Torah of the covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, New) in which we participate.

Remember Zacharias and Elizabeth? They obeyed Torah BLAMELESSLY (Lk. 1:6). We can (and should) too, to the extent possible in this present diaspora.

Paul confirms we are not excluded (Eph. 2:12), thus we are INCLUDED in the covenants (which, by the way, have associated Torah we should OBEY, not oppose!)

Remember, Torah passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33). So it's obviously not terminated.


Ok...feel free to ask more questions...I know it takes a LONG process of diligent perseverance...working through many issues...to discern these truths I seek to share with you...I've been there and done that!

Glad to help...

BibleGuy

 

[garee]

Regarding Gal. 3:2-3, Paul equates "flesh" with "works of the law".

BUT, Paul's use of "flesh" there refers to FAITHLESS works of the law, not FAITHFUL works of the law.

Hi BibleGuy

I see that a little differently, brother.. Would that be the Law of men, according to the commandments as doctrines of men or according to the doctrines of God?

Remember the god of this world mimics the unseen God who is not of this world.

It’s not flesh with the works of the law as the subject matter , but flesh as the work of the law which no man can keep without stumbling at one point other than Christ alone.

Yes, I believe if we would look at it upside down it would be the work of the law according to the flesh of one’s owns selves, and not the works of the Spirit of Christ, as the faith of Christ.but we cannot serve two masters , ourselves and Christ.

Having, (possessing) the faith of Christ in respect to His three day labor of love in respect to a work we can do in the end of the matter is to commit blasphemy of His Spirit, the anointing Holy Spirit of Christ.

It depends on whose faith is in view? Ours, according to the imaginations of one’s own heart. That Christ calls desperately wicked and beyond repair as in ... who can know it .... Or Christ’s faith who alone can make our hearts soft according to the hearing of His faith(beliefs)

Ours towards Him, heavenly ...or His heavenly towards us, on earth.

We again must do the first works of God (believe God) ....through the hearing of His faith by which we first believed to the salvation of our soul . And by that faith(His) we finish it all the way to the end as the salvation of our soul. We do not begin with the Spirit and finish it in respect to a work we offer Him according to the flesh.

The perfect law we must keep is according to the commandment below .Again we know the results of those who have it (the hearing of faith) in respect to their own selves or in respect to any outward form(fathers) .

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

The faith of, coming from... not in, towards Him
The conclusion to the whole matter of faith.

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, I was furthering the point that the Jews that Paul was speaking to were trying to tell him that the gentiles were supposed to also follow the law. They beat/arrested Paul for teaching to the contrary to that.

Just to clarify I am using the KJV and in Acts 21:25 it says As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing. ​I am not sure if you are using a different translation bible then I am. But in context to the rest of the chapter and following chapter, the Jews have taken note that the gentile believers are not following law/tradition of Judaism, except for keeping themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood etc. Which comes from Acts 15:28-29, they were told to abstain from these things so they do not give offence to Jews.

I'm agreeing with you but I'm not sure if I am not making it clear. If not I apologize and please let me know.

God Bless

Sounds great!

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan,

You wrote: "Did Moses recite all of Torah in that one day?"

My response: No. Exodus 12, for example, occurred back in Egypt. Dt. 34 was written posthumously.

You wrote: "Right, Torah referred to as a single commandment. To me this says that Torah can't be broken up into We currently do this part, but not this part... It's a single commandment."

My response: No. When the House of Judah went into Babylonian captivity, they surely did NOT say to themselves: "Well guys...we can't obey 100% of Torah right now...so that means we can't obey ANY of it...not even Lev. 18 or Lev. 19:18 or Dt. 6:4-5...or Ex. 20:13...."

See the point?

Sure, when you are in diaspora, you can't obey all Torah...but that's no excuse to disobey observable portions.

Furthermore, Moses PROPHESIED that Israel would:

1. Be scattered around the world (Dt. 30:1).
2. Return to YHVH in obedience to Torah commands (Dt. 30:2).
3. Return to the land. (Dt. 30:5)
4. Obey 100% of all Torah again (Dt. 30:8).

This prophecy PROVES that Torah-obedience returns to the people of God (#2) BEFORE the diaspora ends (#4).

Thus, it proves that we (the people of Israel) CAN and SHOULD and WILL obey Torah (before diaspora ends), even though 100% of Torah will not be observable again until after diaspora ends.

There has been rapid growth (the past 50 years) in recognition of our need to be growing in Torah.

I take this as evidence that the prophecy of Dt. 30:1-8 is not too far off from fulfillment...maybe only a few more centuries to go!

You wrote: "Does Torah talk about gentiles being saved?"

My response: Israel is uniquely saved by YHVH (Dt. 33:29).

Christians (even Gentile Christians) are not excluded from Israel (Eph. 2:12), but are included as fellow Israelites.

Gentile believers in Israel have been included in Israel as fellow Israelites, even since Dt. 29:10-13, with the expectation that they would obey Torah (Dt. 31:12). Isaiah agrees (Is. 56), and Jesus verifies the perpetuity of this truth (Mt. 21:13 zealously citing the ongoing force of Is. 56).

So "yes"...Gentiles in Israel are saved, participate in the covenants, are fellow citizens in the community, are fellow heirs who share in the promised inheritance in the land, and are expected to obey the Torah of the covenants in which they participate. Torah-obedient (and Torah-teaching) Paul affirms these same truths in Eph. 2 and Eph. 3.

Hope that helps!

BibleGuy

' My response: No. Exodus 12, for example, occurred back in Egypt. Dt. 34 was written posthumously.'

do we know what moses spoke on 'this day'?





' My response: No. When the House of Judah went into Babylonian captivity, they surely did NOT say to themselves: "Well guys...we can't obey 100% of Torah right now...so that means we can't obey ANY of it...not even Lev. 18 or Lev. 19:18 or Dt. 6:4-5...or Ex. 20:13...."

See the point?'

well, no... the Jews made the best of their situation, but they were not keeping 'the commandment'.

 

[BibleGuy]

'Furthermore, Paul, Peter, and James (ALL of whom were present in Ac. 15) contributed to the written NT Scriptures which jointly confirm that saved Gentiles SHOULD grow in faithful Torah-obedience.'

THE ACTS 21:24 ...you yourself also walk keeping the law.

James says that Paul is currently keeping the law

THE ACTS 21:25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written our decision that they should observe no such thing'

Hi Dan,

Remember that the phrase "that they should observe no such thing except" is a disputed textual variant, which does NOT even appear in the Critical Text.

AND, it does not appear in any text in Ac. 15 (which is where the ruling came from).

AND, we should not construct theology from a disputed textual variant passage like that.

AND, we have abundant evidence (from elsewhere in Scripture) disconfirming that phrase (IF you interpret the phrase to mean that Gentile Christians should never grow in faithful obedience to Scripture).

AND, even if that phrase were the correct translation of the original Ac. 21 autograph, then (as I've already shown) it merely confirms that proper recognition of Gentiles as "saved" requires that Gentiles observe no such thing except the 4 rules. So, even in this case, we find no disconfirmation of the claim that Gentiles (AFTER being saved) should grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

'My response: CAREFUL! Let's not use the "love your neighbor" mantra as an excuse to NOT grow in faithful obedience to all presently observable Torah!'

I don't think calling "love your neighbor" a 'mantra' fits with the fruit of the Spirit.

Hi!

A "mantra" may be defined as: An often-repeated phrase.

And, "love your neighbor" is an often-repeated phrase than is often (and repeatedly!) used (inappropriately!) by many of us Christians to downplay (and neglect) our moral obligation to grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

That said...my use of "mantra" is consistent with the definition of "mantra".

But ok...if you don't like that term, then let's replace it with "expression" or "phrase"....and my point remains....

BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

' Perhaps you could view some of the modern Judaisms as extensions of the 1st century "scribes and pharisees"...but there's been a LOT of history since then...not everything is the same.'

the pharisees accepted the written law and the traditions of the elders. today's rabbis follow the written law and the Talmud, which is traditions of the elders.

do you believe rambam sat in the seat of moses?



' Those who refuse to carry on the Torah-obedient traditions that were passed on...'

passed on by who? (honestly trying to follow the logic here) the rabbis, or some other tradition?

Howdy...

Moses prophesied of the Messiah (Dt. 18), and we know the Messiah is Jesus (Yehoshua, Ac. 3:22; 7:37).

So, proper functioning of the seat of Moses must not contradict Mosaic prophecy, and (thus) it must not contradict the Messiah about whom Moses has prophesied.

To the extent that Maimonides opposed the claim that Yehoshua (Jesus) was the Messiah, we may reject that anti-Christ theology (and we may reject the improper functioning of any alleged "seat of Moses").

You wrote: "passed on by who?"

My response: Passed on by Paul, Silvanus and Timothy (the authors of 2 Th.).

BibleGuy

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan,

You wrote: "Did Moses recite all of Torah in that one day?"

My response: No. Exodus 12, for example, occurred back in Egypt. Dt. 34 was written posthumously.

You wrote: "Right, Torah referred to as a single commandment. To me this says that Torah can't be broken up into We currently do this part, but not this part... It's a single commandment."

My response: No. When the House of Judah went into Babylonian captivity, they surely did NOT say to themselves: "Well guys...we can't obey 100% of Torah right now...so that means we can't obey ANY of it...not even Lev. 18 or Lev. 19:18 or Dt. 6:4-5...or Ex. 20:13...."

See the point?

Sure, when you are in diaspora, you can't obey all Torah...but that's no excuse to disobey observable portions.

Furthermore, Moses PROPHESIED that Israel would:

1. Be scattered around the world (Dt. 30:1).
2. Return to YHVH in obedience to Torah commands (Dt. 30:2).
3. Return to the land. (Dt. 30:5)
4. Obey 100% of all Torah again (Dt. 30:8).

This prophecy PROVES that Torah-obedience returns to the people of God (#2) BEFORE the diaspora ends (#4).

Thus, it proves that we (the people of Israel) CAN and SHOULD and WILL obey Torah (before diaspora ends), even though 100% of Torah will not be observable again until after diaspora ends.

There has been rapid growth (the past 50 years) in recognition of our need to be growing in Torah.

I take this as evidence that the prophecy of Dt. 30:1-8 is not too far off from fulfillment...maybe only a few more centuries to go!

You wrote: "Does Torah talk about gentiles being saved?"

My response: Israel is uniquely saved by YHVH (Dt. 33:29).

Christians (even Gentile Christians) are not excluded from Israel (Eph. 2:12), but are included as fellow Israelites.

Gentile believers in Israel have been included in Israel as fellow Israelites, even since Dt. 29:10-13, with the expectation that they would obey Torah (Dt. 31:12). Isaiah agrees (Is. 56), and Jesus verifies the perpetuity of this truth (Mt. 21:13 zealously citing the ongoing force of Is. 56).

So "yes"...Gentiles in Israel are saved, participate in the covenants, are fellow citizens in the community, are fellow heirs who share in the promised inheritance in the land, and are expected to obey the Torah of the covenants in which they participate. Torah-obedient (and Torah-teaching) Paul affirms these same truths in Eph. 2 and Eph. 3.

Hope that helps!

BibleGuy

' Sure, when you are in diaspora, you can't obey all Torah...but that's no excuse to disobey observable portions.'
if Torah can be divided into parts, some kept and some not, then it's not a single commandment, it sounds to me



'So "yes"...Gentiles in Israel are saved...'

is that salvation the same as what's offered in the nt?

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan_473,

I'm GLAD you brought this up!

It gives me an opportunity to clear up another common misconception.

FIRST, you evidently AGREE that Ac. 21 confirms that Paul taught believing (i.e., "Christian") Jews to NOT forsake Moses (or Torah, in general). Right?

If so, then we have ALREADY disconfirmed the past 1700 years or so of anti-Torah Christian theology!

When is the last time you heard a Christian sermon that emphasized that Paul TAUGHT that Jewish Christians (even today) should be circumcising their 8-day-old males in obedience to Torah (just as Paul Taught)? We don't hear this in traditional Christian circles, right? That's because our traditional Christian establishment (wrongly) thinks of Paul as being generally anti-Torah.

You see, since Paul taught the Jewish Christians to obey Torah, it already proves that Torah CONTINUES to function even in the New Covenant era, EVEN FOR CHRISTIANS! This is a HUGE point to emphasize to our fellow Christians...since we Christians tend to (wrongly) think about Torah as if it is old, expired, passed away, abolished, terminated, not applicable, etc.

So, at the very least, we must now agree that JEWISH Christians who become saved SHOULD also obey Torah (just as Paul taught).


SECOND, Ac. 21:25 is just a recap of the Ac. 15 ruling, where I already showed that the list of 4 commands (i.e., no idols, no blood, no strangled things, no sexual immorality) were designed as conditions required for recognition of SAVED Gentiles (see "sodzo" in Ac. 15).

So, the 4 commands are NOT a complete list of everything a Gentile Christian should be doing! It's simply a list of requirements for being recognized as SAVED. Thus, the Ac. 15 ruling (cited again in Ac. 21) does NOTHING to disconfirm the claim that Gentile Christians (after being saved) should grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

So, since the four commands are NOT a description of what a fully sanctified Gentile Christian looks like, it follows that the four commands are NOT evidence that fully sanctified Gentile Christians should not be full-grown in faithful Torah-obedience.


THIRD, let's be careful to NOT base our theology on a questionable textual variant. You see, the phrase "that they should observe no such thing, except..." is not even in the Critical Text of Ac. 21:25. (Just compare the NASB and KJV, and you'll see!) AND, that phrase appears in none of the texts of Ac. 15:20.

So again...let's not attempt to construct a significant theological doctrine from a disputed textual variant which doesn't even appear in Ac. 15 (from whence it came), and which is contrary to the commands of the Father, Son, Spirit, Pentateuch, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, Epistles...even Revelation!

Hope this helps...

BibleGuy

'FIRST, you evidently AGREE that Ac. 21 confirms that Paul taught believing (i.e., "Christian") Jews to NOT forsake Moses (or Torah, in general). Right?'

no, Paul not teaching them to forsake the law is not the same as teaching them to keep the law.

are you able to see that difference?

 

[BibleGuy]

In addition Please read all of Acts 21:

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Verse 19 was talking about how Paul declared what God has done with the Gentiles by his ministry. In the following verses, The Jews at the temple Paul was in stated that there are thousands of Jews which believe and are still under the law. Verse 21 is saying that Paul was teaching against the law/customs of the Jew. And if you go past verse 25 onto the rest of the chapter you will see that the Jews beat Paul were going to kill him and then arrested him. Then we can also go into Chapter 22 of Acts where Paul is admonishing the Jews for doing exactly what Saul of Tarsus was doing (Paul) before he was saved on the road to Damascus.

Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

What did Paul testify to the Jews? His conversion in Damascus, Now lets go to Acts 26 to see what Paul testified to Rome.

In part of his testimony to the Romans look at verse 18 which was the Lord Jesus Christs' words to Paul

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

God Bless

Hi there redeemed2014,

You wrote: "Verse 21 is saying that Paul was teaching against the law/customs of the Jew."

My response: NO! Verse 21 says: "....and they have been told about you..."

This means that the zealous law-keepers of Ac. 21:20 had been told reports about Paul.

What reports? The reports that Paul was teaching Jews to forsake Moses and to not circumcise their children and to not walk according to their customs.

NOW, were those reports TRUE or FALSE?

Let's check Ac. 21:23-24! Here we find that Paul is instructed to take a vow (along with four others) for a VERY SPECIAL PURPOSE!

What is the purpose? To prove that Paul "walked orderly, keeping the Law" (Ac. 21:24).

Did Paul say: "Hold on guys...there's no way I'm taking a vow to prove I obey Torah! Don't you know that I teach AGAINST Torah-obedience? Don't you know that those anti-Torah reports about me were true?"

No no no!

Rather, Paul did what? He TOOK THE VOW to prove his orderly Torah-obedience (Ac. 21:26).

So, you've clearly misread the text, my friend.

Paul silenced his critics by taking a vow to PROVE that Paul:

1. Walked orderly in obedience to Torah.
2. Taught Jewish believers to not forsake Moses.
3. Taught Jewish believers to circumcise their children.

Nowhere does the text state (or imply) that Paul was actually teaching against Torah.


Now, you bring up Acts 22...but that further confirms my position! Here's why:

Christians should have their sins washed away (Ac. 22:16). Sin is lawlessness (Torah-lessness, Is. 42:24; Hos. 8:11-12; Rom. 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4). Thus, Christians should have Torah-lessness washed away. Christian obedience to the Torah is, therefore, to be expected.

Why would Christians have their Torah-lessness washed away...only to be set free to now disobey Torah? Of course that makes no sense. Therefore, Ac. 22 confirms my position.

Again, you bring forth Ac. 26. And again, this confirms my position. Here's why:

Christians should receive forgiveness of sins (Ac. 26:18). Sin is lawlessness (Torah-lessness, Is. 42:24; Hos. 8:11-12; Rom. 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4). Thus, Christians should receive forgiveness of Torah-lessness. Christian obedience to the Torah is, therefore, to be expected.

Again, it makes no sense to encourage people to have their sins forgiven...and then to turn around say: "Ok guys...now you are FREE from the law! You can disobey it now!" Therefore, Ac. 26 likewise confirms my position.

And AGAIN, even GENTILES share in the inheritance (Ac. 26:18)...and the inheritance includes inheritance in the LAND promise which is to be fulfilled (Dt. 6:10) in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).

Again, we find confirmation that even Gentile Christians should grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the covenants in which they participate.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

not sure I'm following you...

'...Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law.'

in some cases, believers will keep the law.

but for the most part,
'THE ACTS 21:25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written our decision that they should observe no such thing'

Just a reminder: "observe no such thing" is a disputed textual variant. Let's not derive significant theological conclusions from it.

thanks!

BibleGuy

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan_473,

I'm GLAD you brought this up!

It gives me an opportunity to clear up another common misconception.

FIRST, you evidently AGREE that Ac. 21 confirms that Paul taught believing (i.e., "Christian") Jews to NOT forsake Moses (or Torah, in general). Right?

If so, then we have ALREADY disconfirmed the past 1700 years or so of anti-Torah Christian theology!

When is the last time you heard a Christian sermon that emphasized that Paul TAUGHT that Jewish Christians (even today) should be circumcising their 8-day-old males in obedience to Torah (just as Paul Taught)? We don't hear this in traditional Christian circles, right? That's because our traditional Christian establishment (wrongly) thinks of Paul as being generally anti-Torah.

You see, since Paul taught the Jewish Christians to obey Torah, it already proves that Torah CONTINUES to function even in the New Covenant era, EVEN FOR CHRISTIANS! This is a HUGE point to emphasize to our fellow Christians...since we Christians tend to (wrongly) think about Torah as if it is old, expired, passed away, abolished, terminated, not applicable, etc.

So, at the very least, we must now agree that JEWISH Christians who become saved SHOULD also obey Torah (just as Paul taught).


SECOND, Ac. 21:25 is just a recap of the Ac. 15 ruling, where I already showed that the list of 4 commands (i.e., no idols, no blood, no strangled things, no sexual immorality) were designed as conditions required for recognition of SAVED Gentiles (see "sodzo" in Ac. 15).

So, the 4 commands are NOT a complete list of everything a Gentile Christian should be doing! It's simply a list of requirements for being recognized as SAVED. Thus, the Ac. 15 ruling (cited again in Ac. 21) does NOTHING to disconfirm the claim that Gentile Christians (after being saved) should grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

So, since the four commands are NOT a description of what a fully sanctified Gentile Christian looks like, it follows that the four commands are NOT evidence that fully sanctified Gentile Christians should not be full-grown in faithful Torah-obedience.


THIRD, let's be careful to NOT base our theology on a questionable textual variant. You see, the phrase "that they should observe no such thing, except..." is not even in the Critical Text of Ac. 21:25. (Just compare the NASB and KJV, and you'll see!) AND, that phrase appears in none of the texts of Ac. 15:20.

So again...let's not attempt to construct a significant theological doctrine from a disputed textual variant which doesn't even appear in Ac. 15 (from whence it came), and which is contrary to the commands of the Father, Son, Spirit, Pentateuch, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, Epistles...even Revelation!

Hope this helps...

BibleGuy

' SECOND, Ac. 21:25 is just a recap of the Ac. 15 ruling, where I already showed that the list of 4 commands (i.e., no idols, no blood, no strangled things, no sexual immorality) were designed as conditions required for recognition of SAVED Gentiles (see "sodzo" in Ac. 15).'

well, we see that differently...

James compares what Paul does (walk keeping the law, but not to be saved)
with what the gentiles do, which is observe no such thing... no such thing as walk keeping the law (but not to be saved).

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan_473,

I'm GLAD you brought this up!

It gives me an opportunity to clear up another common misconception.

FIRST, you evidently AGREE that Ac. 21 confirms that Paul taught believing (i.e., "Christian") Jews to NOT forsake Moses (or Torah, in general). Right?

If so, then we have ALREADY disconfirmed the past 1700 years or so of anti-Torah Christian theology!

When is the last time you heard a Christian sermon that emphasized that Paul TAUGHT that Jewish Christians (even today) should be circumcising their 8-day-old males in obedience to Torah (just as Paul Taught)? We don't hear this in traditional Christian circles, right? That's because our traditional Christian establishment (wrongly) thinks of Paul as being generally anti-Torah.

You see, since Paul taught the Jewish Christians to obey Torah, it already proves that Torah CONTINUES to function even in the New Covenant era, EVEN FOR CHRISTIANS! This is a HUGE point to emphasize to our fellow Christians...since we Christians tend to (wrongly) think about Torah as if it is old, expired, passed away, abolished, terminated, not applicable, etc.

So, at the very least, we must now agree that JEWISH Christians who become saved SHOULD also obey Torah (just as Paul taught).


SECOND, Ac. 21:25 is just a recap of the Ac. 15 ruling, where I already showed that the list of 4 commands (i.e., no idols, no blood, no strangled things, no sexual immorality) were designed as conditions required for recognition of SAVED Gentiles (see "sodzo" in Ac. 15).

So, the 4 commands are NOT a complete list of everything a Gentile Christian should be doing! It's simply a list of requirements for being recognized as SAVED. Thus, the Ac. 15 ruling (cited again in Ac. 21) does NOTHING to disconfirm the claim that Gentile Christians (after being saved) should grow in faithful Torah-obedience.

So, since the four commands are NOT a description of what a fully sanctified Gentile Christian looks like, it follows that the four commands are NOT evidence that fully sanctified Gentile Christians should not be full-grown in faithful Torah-obedience.


THIRD, let's be careful to NOT base our theology on a questionable textual variant. You see, the phrase "that they should observe no such thing, except..." is not even in the Critical Text of Ac. 21:25. (Just compare the NASB and KJV, and you'll see!) AND, that phrase appears in none of the texts of Ac. 15:20.

So again...let's not attempt to construct a significant theological doctrine from a disputed textual variant which doesn't even appear in Ac. 15 (from whence it came), and which is contrary to the commands of the Father, Son, Spirit, Pentateuch, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, Epistles...even Revelation!

Hope this helps...

BibleGuy

' THIRD, let's be careful to NOT base our theology on a questionable textual variant. You see, the phrase "that they should observe no such thing, except..." is not even in the Critical Text of Ac. 21:25. (Just compare the NASB and KJV, and you'll see!) AND, that phrase appears in none of the texts of Ac. 15:20.'

interesting, it's not in the software I'm using... but sure, so

James compares what Paul does (walk keeping the law, but not to be saved)
with what the gentiles do, which is follow the four directives.

 

[BibleGuy]

Yes the two are one. “Inseparable”. Just as the father and the Son. As Christ said; the father and I are one

You wrote...Faith-righteousness (apart from faithless works) saves us (Eph. 2:8-9), granting us free ENTRANCE into the coming kingdom. Works-righteousness necessarily accompanies faith (Jas. 2:17), and determines our POSITION in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

The same hearing of faith, the first work of God working in us works in us to the end to both will and do His good pleasure..We do not begin by His Spirit through the hearing of His faith and then try and justify our own self by thinking we could keepHis perfect law perfectly according to keeping the whole law without stumbling at any point. Seeing to violate it at any point is to be found guilty of violating the whole Torah. Law of God ,not of Moses.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:2

Faith is works righteousness system. That work is exclusively in respect to the “faith of Christ” (not of our own selves) ,according to His labor of love. Again, it’s just not of our selves lest any man boast in false pride.

No person can separate the faith of God from the works of the Spirit of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God..

By faith (believing) our faithful Creator said; let there be and there was. Now if he would say the words; Let there be. and it would not create the substance he hoped for.... it would be dead. Just as our bodies made up of water and dust without the Spirit life he breathed into us would be dead also and could not work.. It is why I believe we are to call Him out faithful Creator . because of his ability unlike the creature able to create a new by believing he can and exercising that hope by saying the words.

Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.



Sorry, It’s not my goal to accuse anyone. After all we do not wrestles against flesh and blood ,brother .I am sharing my private interpretation as a personal commentary as to what I believe the Holy Spirit is teaching me. Just as anyone who calls themselves a Christian. I would hope.



Yes, it depends on guarding it with all our heart soul and mind .No man keep it perfectly without stumbling in the least. So it is a good goal seeing some use it for a license to sin .We need the B word “balance” somewhere in the middle where ever that is.



Sorry, I would not agree with your conclusion to that verse.....The works that go up in smoke is the bringing of the gospel.

Those who reject the hearing of faith the gospel of their salvation, cause the foot work to go up in smoke. They would be the ones we are to shake the dust off our sandals figuratively speaking. Christ is the rewarder as the one who pays the wage. He earned it through His work of faith as a three day labor of His love. It is not of us in any way shape or form. Everyone gets the same reward of His work of faith. “Eternal life”. We can see that in the parable of the worker in the fields.

The promised wage was one cent .It equaled salvation. It did not matter on how long a person worked and therefore how much work they performed they all got the same reward 1 penny, which equals eternal life. God is no respecter of persons
If Christ has begun the good work of salvation in a believer he will simply finish it just as he promises he will.



Amen.



Yes it’s the righteousness of Christ that comes from his labor of Love. It’s what grants us a way into His kingdom as the same way it keeps us in.....by grace through the faith of Christ .The anointing Holy Spirit of God.



It’s not connected to Paul either its connect to the person from who the faith comes from .The faith of Christ. If we have that faith of God in respect to persons we have blasphemed the Holy name we are called by. Remember there are two kinds of faith that of God and those of men.

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not “the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory”, with respect of persons.

Some translations say which I believe changes the direction intended, faith in Christ and not generated from in as of Christ. .
That's the other kind of faith or men towards him indicating we have heard His word coming from a living faith working towards us so that we can believe Him who has no form.. The things of men must be distinguished from the things of God. I believe it’s where the father of lies, the god of this world get his foot in the door.

The conclusion in respect to those who do have the faith of Christ in respect to persons.....

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?



One of my favorites heroes moved by the faith of God. .But he did not have the faith needed to please God working in him in respect to his own self. The imputed faith of Christ that worked in David to both will and do the good pleasure of God and not his own will... is the same mutual faith for all believer as a gift to us and those it effects mutually.

We can see the mutual faith of God that comes from hearing his word effectively exercising His gift that both the giver the receiver

Note....(purple in parentheses) by personal commantary to help empohasize a point I am trying to make.

For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be recognized ; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith (Christ's) both of you and me.. Rom 1:11 (Not of their own selves)

By the faith of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God enabled Abel to offer unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.



Amen. But did he keep it perfectly without stumbling at any point that would prevent him from entering the promised land with the rest of the Israelite's in the dessert?



The faith of Christ worked in Moses in the same way as any saint who has been set aside by God for his doing of the good pleasure of His eternal will .

Christ who lived in Moses was shown the gospel according to the suffering of Christ beforehand just as he did with every Old testament saint.

They in effect received the salvation of their souls in the same way we do today, we just look back.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the "salvation of your souls".Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:9

Moses was shown of not entering the promised land which represented the eternal land the new heavens and earth . Was it because he was not obedient to the Torah?[/QUOTE]


Hi garee,

Lot's of good food for thought...thanks.

I might add, though, that we will not all receive the same reward....2 Cor. 5:10....Mt. 5:19...

And yes...you could say Moses did not enter the promised land because he disobeyed Torah...but Moses WILL enter the promised land when his own prophecy is fulfilled (Dt. 30:1-8). Of course this will only occur after the resurrection.

BibleGuy

 

[redeemed2014]

Hi there redeemed2014,

You wrote: "Verse 21 is saying that Paul was teaching against the law/customs of the Jew."

My response: NO! Verse 21 says: "....and they have been told about you..."

This means that the zealous law-keepers of Ac. 21:20 had been told reports about Paul.

What reports? The reports that Paul was teaching Jews to forsake Moses and to not circumcise their children and to not walk according to their customs.

NOW, were those reports TRUE or FALSE?

Let's check Ac. 21:23-24! Here we find that Paul is instructed to take a vow (along with four others) for a VERY SPECIAL PURPOSE!

What is the purpose? To prove that Paul "walked orderly, keeping the Law" (Ac. 21:24).

Did Paul say: "Hold on guys...there's no way I'm taking a vow to prove I obey Torah! Don't you know that I teach AGAINST Torah-obedience? Don't you know that those anti-Torah reports about me were true?"

No no no!

Rather, Paul did what? He TOOK THE VOW to prove his orderly Torah-obedience (Ac. 21:26).

So, you've clearly misread the text, my friend.

Paul silenced his critics by taking a vow to PROVE that Paul:

1. Walked orderly in obedience to Torah.
2. Taught Jewish believers to not forsake Moses.
3. Taught Jewish believers to circumcise their children.

Nowhere does the text state (or imply) that Paul was actually teaching against Torah.


Now, you bring up Acts 22...but that further confirms my position! Here's why:

Christians should have their sins washed away (Ac. 22:16). Sin is lawlessness (Torah-lessness, Is. 42:24; Hos. 8:11-12; Rom. 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4). Thus, Christians should have Torah-lessness washed away. Christian obedience to the Torah is, therefore, to be expected.

Why would Christians have their Torah-lessness washed away...only to be set free to now disobey Torah? Of course that makes no sense. Therefore, Ac. 22 confirms my position.

Again, you bring forth Ac. 26. And again, this confirms my position. Here's why:

Christians should receive forgiveness of sins (Ac. 26:18). Sin is lawlessness (Torah-lessness, Is. 42:24; Hos. 8:11-12; Rom. 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4). Thus, Christians should receive forgiveness of Torah-lessness. Christian obedience to the Torah is, therefore, to be expected.

Again, it makes no sense to encourage people to have their sins forgiven...and then to turn around say: "Ok guys...now you are FREE from the law! You can disobey it now!" Therefore, Ac. 26 likewise confirms my position.

And AGAIN, even GENTILES share in the inheritance (Ac. 26:18)...and the inheritance includes inheritance in the LAND promise which is to be fulfilled (Dt. 6:10) in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).

Again, we find confirmation that even Gentile Christians should grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the covenants in which they participate.

blessings...
BibleGuy

If Paul and the Jews were on the same page can you please explain why Paul was beaten and arrested by the Jews? Again I will state that grace is not license to sin, never have I taught that please read my previous posts stating my beliefs before throwing around accusations

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi BibleGuy

I see that a little differently, brother.. Would that be the Law of men, according to the commandments as doctrines of men or according to the doctrines of God?

Remember the god of this world mimics the unseen God who is not of this world.

It’s not flesh with the works of the law as the subject matter , but flesh as the work of the law which no man can keep without stumbling at one point other than Christ alone.

Yes, I believe if we would look at it upside down it would be the work of the law according to the flesh of one’s owns selves, and not the works of the Spirit of Christ, as the faith of Christ.but we cannot serve two masters , ourselves and Christ.

Having, (possessing) the faith of Christ in respect to His three day labor of love in respect to a work we can do in the end of the matter is to commit blasphemy of His Spirit, the anointing Holy Spirit of Christ.

It depends on whose faith is in view? Ours, according to the imaginations of one’s own heart. That Christ calls desperately wicked and beyond repair as in ... who can know it .... Or Christ’s faith who alone can make our hearts soft according to the hearing of His faith(beliefs)

Ours towards Him, heavenly ...or His heavenly towards us, on earth.

We again must do the first works of God (believe God) ....through the hearing of His faith by which we first believed to the salvation of our soul . And by that faith(His) we finish it all the way to the end as the salvation of our soul. We do not begin with the Spirit and finish it in respect to a work we offer Him according to the flesh.

The perfect law we must keep is according to the commandment below .Again we know the results of those who have it (the hearing of faith) in respect to their own selves or in respect to any outward form(fathers) .

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

The faith of, coming from... not in, towards Him
The conclusion to the whole matter of faith.

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Hi!

You wrote: "I see that a little differently, brother.. Would that be the Law of men, according to the commandments as doctrines of men or according to the doctrines of God?"

My response: The law (Torah) is the commandment of God (not men).

Paul associated "flesh" with "works of the law" (Gal. 3:2-3).

Now, what kind of works of Torah are we talking about?

FAITHFUL works? or FAITHLESS works?

Well, the contrast between "works of the law" and "hearing of faith" (Gal. 3:2) clearly confirms that the "works of the law" is NOT a hearing of faith!

Therefore, the "works of the law" in Gal. 3:2 is a FAITHLESS works of the law, not a FAITHFUL works of the law.

So I don't understand what (or why) you have disagreement with...

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

' My response: No. Exodus 12, for example, occurred back in Egypt. Dt. 34 was written posthumously.'

do we know what moses spoke on 'this day'?





' My response: No. When the House of Judah went into Babylonian captivity, they surely did NOT say to themselves: "Well guys...we can't obey 100% of Torah right now...so that means we can't obey ANY of it...not even Lev. 18 or Lev. 19:18 or Dt. 6:4-5...or Ex. 20:13...."

See the point?'

well, no... the Jews made the best of their situation, but they were not keeping 'the commandment'.

Hi again Dan!

Not sure...but Moses may have spoken Dt. 1 through Dt. 28...maybe even all the way through Dt. 33....all in one day.

You wrote: "well, no... the Jews made the best of their situation, but they were not keeping 'the commandment'."

My response: Sure...the Jews in Babylonian captivity did not keep "the commandment" 100% (because that would have been impossible).

BUT, that's not the point towards which I'm driving!

SHOULD the Jews have "made the best of their situation" by keeping the observable Torah portions while in captivity?

If YES, then we can not claim that our present diaspora is an excuse to neglect observable Torah portions. Why? Because we (in this present diaspora) should ALSO make the best of our situation by maximizing observation of presently observable Torah portions.

If NO, then we have just given the Diaspora Jews in Babylon (as well as ourselves, in our present diaspora) license to commit terrible acts. Why? Because the "Torah" is all one unit...you obey it all...or not at all....you can't break it up into parts (according to this reasoning).

Clearly we can't choose "NO".

But then we are forced to choose "YES", meaning we should likewise make the best of our situation by obeying as much Torah as possible in our present diaspora.

See the point now?

blessings...
BibleGuy