the two witnesses are God the Father and the Holy Spirit

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2016

That is a beautiful testimony to the TRUTH and in the end, those who hold to THAT TESTIMONY are the ones who will suffer because they won't go out but will hold to THE TESTIMONY of JESUS...they did not love their lives even to the death, but held to THAT TESTIMONY.

This I do understand...
Not by power or by might (we were told not to uproot, not to live by the sword, not to avenge, not to take matters into our own hands) and in the end, it will be made manifest those who were the "violent men of the covenant" (mentioned in Daniel) from those who were appalled by the atrocities which will come in the last days and will NOT go out...and held to the TESTIMONY of JESUS...therefore their works will proceed them...and what exactly were their works?

They clung to HIM and waited and trusted by faith in HIM who is FAITHFUL who temporarily hides HIS FACE from "Jacob's struggles" but will come and will not delay...

Blessed those who wait for HIM
Blessed the man who waits 1335 days and does not "go out"...

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2016

However, the two witnesses are NOT GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT.
Their testimony and what they say is still by GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT...and it isn't them who has the "power" to rain fire down on men, but GOD has given them that power...

GOD does NOT give any of us that power...for if we did this, we would be rebuked just as James and John were rebuked when they wanted to rain fire down from heaven on that samaritan village who would not accept JESUS.

CHRIST said to them, truly you do not know of whose SPIRIT you are of.
When you see these two men testifying and these things happening, it is by GOD'S POWER that they do these things...but they are NOT GOD and THE HOLY SPIRIT at all...

They are simply doing what GOD has foreordained for them to do...by HIS SPIRIT and HIS POWER, yes...

But "THAT WORK" is NOT ours to do...

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2016

Remember Daniel was told to shut of the words for the time of the end?
Remember John also was told to not write down these things for they also were for the time of the end.

But do you know that those "violent men of the covenant" and even those who "live by the sword" have already been destined by GOD'S foreknowledge and are destined to go against the SPIRIT by their own power and might making manifest that they DID NOT KNOW OF WHOSE SPIRIT THEY TRULY WERE OF...

badger58 · Jun 12, 2016

thepsalmist said:

Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. REV 11:8

... off the top of my head ... The Holy Spirit and God cannot be "killed" ... I don't see how their bodies could lie in the street when they are spirit ... and it also says "where their Lord was crucified" Jesus is not the Lord of God and the Holy Spirit.

Read Revelation 11 ....

Most of older text have it: Where the Lord was crucified. This is easy to verify. Peace

badger58 · Jun 12, 2016

badger58 said:

I had to understand this years ago. Or I could not have started this thread.

badger58 · Jun 12, 2016

miknik5 said:

Do you rember what I said in a previous post... That part of bible study is to detect patterns. Consider this one.

God sometimes used names to tell a story, a sort of code.

EXAMPLES
Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 8:3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.
Hos 1:4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
Hos 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Luk 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

This is one of those patterns!
So, I would ask you all to consider that when at the end of the book of Malachi where it says: Behold, I will send you ELIJAH the
Prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord. The name Elijah means in Hebrew: My God Jehovah or Jehovah is my God.
Is it at least, with in the realm of possibility that, He was saying: Behold I will send you my God Jehovah before the great and terrible day of the lord?
And

Mar 15:33 ¶ And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mar 15:35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.

Mar 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.

Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Mar 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

I found this in one of my bible studies to be very interesting.

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2016

badger58 said:

Do you remember what I said?
THE TESTIMONY of JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY>

Don't you know that all these lower signs and pictures and representations were simply all the shadows which spoke of and pointed to THE SON?
Don't you know that GOD "HID HIS SON" in HIS WORD because GOD knows our limited humanity that we ever and always need signs and representations to understand the HIGHER HIDDEN SPIRITUAL TRUTHS that can only be known by HIS SPIRIT..

All these "stories"...all these "things", these "codes", these "pictures" and "representations" were simply shadows put in place prophecying so that at the fullness of time when the body HE prepared from before the world ever was might come forth to do HIS WILL, we would look back and bring to remembrance that all along GOD spoke of and pointed us to HIS SON.

GOD, in HIS GRACE provided sign upon sign upon sign rearing us up to KNOW HIM...doesn't the ox know HIS MASTER!

YET?

All these priests, all these prophets, all these judges, all these kings were simply shadows of the ONE planned from the beginning.

Everything pointed to and all these shadows were simply the REALITIES all found in CHRIST...

This is why it is said THE TESTIMONY of JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

badger58 · Jun 12, 2016

miknik5 said:

Do you remember what I said?
THE TESTIMONY of JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY>

Don't you know that all these lower signs and pictures and representations were simply all the shadows which spoke of and pointed to THE SON?
Don't you know that GOD "HID HIS SON" in HIS WORD because GOD knows our limited humanity that we ever and always need signs and representations to understand the HIGHER HIDDEN SPIRITUAL TRUTHS that can only be known by HIS SPIRIT..

All these "stories"...all these "things", these "codes", these "pictures" and "representations" were simply shadows put in place prophecying so that at the fullness of time when the body HE prepared from before the world ever was might come forth to do HIS WILL, we would look back and bring to remembrance that all along GOD spoke of and pointed us to HIS SON.

GOD, in HIS GRACE provided sign upon sign upon sign rearing us up to KNOW HIM...doesn't the ox know HIS MASTER!

YET?

All these priests, all these prophets, all these judges, all these kings were simply shadows of the ONE planned from the beginning.

Everything pointed to and all these shadows were simply the REALITIES all found in CHRIST...

This is why it is said THE TESTIMONY of JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

That could be true, I grant you that, I still think God has some surprises in store for us. I agree though that Jesus is sufficient !

Peace

badger58 · Jun 12, 2016

badger58 said:

As I stated early on, when I started this post it is not salvation issue to the body of Christ, but it may be to our brothers the Jews.

badger58 · Jun 12, 2016

miknik5 said:

That is a beautiful testimony to the TRUTH and in the end, those who hold to THAT TESTIMONY are the ones who will suffer because they won't go out but will hold to THE TESTIMONY of JESUS...they did not love their lives even to the death, but held to THAT TESTIMONY.

This I do understand...
Not by power or by might (we were told not to uproot, not to live by the sword, not to avenge, not to take matters into our own hands) and in the end, it will be made manifest those who were the "violent men of the covenant" (mentioned in Daniel) from those who were appalled by the atrocities which will come in the last days and will NOT go out...and held to the TESTIMONY of JESUS...therefore their works will proceed them...and what exactly were their works?

They clung to HIM and waited and trusted by faith in HIM who is FAITHFUL who temporarily hides HIS FACE from "Jacob's struggles" but will come and will not delay...

Blessed those who wait for HIM
Blessed the man who waits 1335 days and does not "go out"...

This is the patience of the saints spoken of in the book of Revelations, that you are describing. Peace

badger58 · Jun 13, 2016

badger58 said:

Side note: Some of us think that we should never argue as Christians. Some have said ideas are inherently dangerous or sinful.

But the the bible is full of ideas that have to be hashed out, using the bible as the final authority. The wisdom that we seek is not

Childs play. It's hard work like mining gold. Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line. After 40

years of digging, its painstaking to find a tiny nugget. Jesus Christ is the pearl of great price, for which we are admonished to sell

everything,in order to attain it. But, that does not mean that we stop the thought process. For now that you possess that pearl.

you are assured of your place in the kingdom. We are still here though, in the flesh. We have to hold down the fort, so to speak

Until the lords return. I challenge you and you challenge me to prove all thing. I grew up the oldest of four boys. As you can

Imagine, we wrestled a lot, it wasn't done to hurt(at least not much) my brothers, but it was a way to exercise our muscles. I

need this for my own good, so don't hold back. I have blundered with coming across to rough. I will be kinder and gentler in the

future. Peace

abcdef · Jun 13, 2016

badger58 said:

Brother badger58,

The whole Bible is about the revealing of Jesus, His death, resurrection, return, etc.

You would think that such an event, as the Father and the Holy Spirit dying and resurrecting, would be spoken of twice as much as Jesus' death res. etc.

Can you produce a quantity of prophetic scriptures for this important event?

badger58 · Jun 13, 2016

abcdef said:

Brother abcdef
I have been pouring into my posts as many scriptures as I can and will continue to do so.
There has to be over a hundred passages by now. Please go through the thread. I did not come up with this in one night
That should be obvious to my sharpest critics. This idea had its Genisis in the fact that I was forced to get in the bible to
check what the paster of the church I attended was saying. He claimed to be an apostle, and more, he claimed to be the end time Elijah. What he preached sounded good ,but I was a baby in Christ! I had to lock myself ina room as study for my life, and not only my life but my very soul. He taught that the trinity was a doctrine from demons. I have family and friends that are still traped by these lies, even though he is dead now. I was praying and studying hours a day asking that God would show me in the old testament where I could see plainly that the trinity was true. One night I was reading the book of Zechariah. When I came to chapter four and looked at the vision given the prophet. I knew I had found what I had been searching for. It was simple, yet beautiful. A lamp stand all of gold and an olive tree on each side. I also studied:what was an apostle, a prophet, what about Elijah?
I proved with my own bible that this man was not an apostle, he was not Elijah and that the trinity was true....so here is my choice, as I see it. I can believe that I misread the bible or it and God cannot be trusted and that He doesn't answer our prayers
when we are in trouble or I can except what I believe He has given me move on. I have gone back to Zechariahs vision and no one can answer me how is it possible for the olive trees to be the source of the oil?(the oil is always a symbol of the Spirit of God)
I can't get past this. I do know that the Holy Spirit is laser beam accurate when it gives utterance to the prophets.

abcdef · Jun 13, 2016

badger58 said:

Isn't the olive tree a symbol of Israel?

Doesn't the Holy Spirit flow through us to the world? By the preaching of the Gospel? (wild branches)

Isn't Israel, past and present, by their testimony (O.T.), still a people that point us to Jesus?

They haven't accepted Jesus and the Pentecost kingdom, and the gift (indwelling)of the Holy Spirit,

But they have a "testimony", that still speaks today.

They preach a "type" of gospel, but it isn't complete without Jesus.

Israel is the source of the Holy Spirit to the world, by possessing God's word (O.T.-N.T.) and preaching,

Past and present.

badger58 · Jun 13, 2016

You would think that such an event, as the Father and the Holy Spirit dying and resurrecting, would be spoken of twice as much as Jesus' death res. etc.

Can you produce a quantity of prophetic scriptures for this important event?

You are absolutely right! Agreed

badger58 · Jun 13, 2016

abcdef said:

This is the beauty of Zechariah's vision: This is what I see. A lamp stand all of gold, a beaten work of one piece with two olive trees. One on each side. They are ever producing the pure oil, they are the source of the oil that feed through golden pipes into
The beaten gold lamp stand. The two olive trees' perceptually lavishing the supply of oil to the lamp stand. The Father and the Holy Spirit are symbolized by the two olive tree's, the beaten work the lamp stand is Jesus. He receives the oil and it has to be constantly used, so he has to channel on to the seven individual lamps on a menorah. Jesus said: You are the light of the world!
The same oil that the Father and the Holy Spirit lavish on the Son, is lavished on us. When we received the gospel and were baptized into His name we are now connected to The Godhead. The same spirit that flowed through Christ, is now flowing through all of us! I don't know how to make this any more plain. I guess you see this or you don't. I think its a blessing to see this, you may not. God bless!

badger58 · Jun 13, 2016

badger58 said:

This is the beauty of Zechariah's vision: This is what I see. A lamp stand all of gold, a beaten work of one piece with two olive trees. One on each side. They are ever producing the pure oil, they are the source of the oil that feed through golden pipes into
The beaten gold lamp stand. The two olive trees' perceptually lavishing the supply of oil to the lamp stand. The Father and the Holy Spirit are symbolized by the two olive tree's, the beaten work the lamp stand is Jesus. He receives the oil and it has to be constantly used, so he has to channel on to the seven individual lamps on a menorah. Jesus said: You are the light of the world!
The same oil that the Father and the Holy Spirit lavish on the Son, is lavished on us. When we received the gospel and were baptized into His name we are now connected to The Godhead. The same spirit that flowed through Christ, is now flowing through all of us! I don't know how to make this any more plain. I guess you see this or you don't. I think its a blessing to see this, you may not. God bless!

Not by might(human might) nor by power(human power) BUT BY MY SPIRIT sayeth the Lord.

badger58 · Jun 13, 2016

miknik5 said:

Do you remember what I said?
THE TESTIMONY of JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY>

Don't you know that all these lower signs and pictures and representations were simply all the shadows which spoke of and pointed to THE SON?
Don't you know that GOD "HID HIS SON" in HIS WORD because GOD knows our limited humanity that we ever and always need signs and representations to understand the HIGHER HIDDEN SPIRITUAL TRUTHS that can only be known by HIS SPIRIT..

All these "stories"...all these "things", these "codes", these "pictures" and "representations" were simply shadows put in place prophecying so that at the fullness of time when the body HE prepared from before the world ever was might come forth to do HIS WILL, we would look back and bring to remembrance that all along GOD spoke of and pointed us to HIS SON.

GOD, in HIS GRACE provided sign upon sign upon sign rearing us up to KNOW HIM...doesn't the ox know HIS MASTER!

YET?

All these priests, all these prophets, all these judges, all these kings were simply shadows of the ONE planned from the beginning.

Everything pointed to and all these shadows were simply the REALITIES all found in CHRIST...

This is why it is said THE TESTIMONY of JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

I know some of these are shadows pointing to Christ, but I do not know that all of them are.
I believe that some of them are about the two witnesses. I'm sorry that's what I believe. I can't deny that.

abcdef · Jun 13, 2016

badger58 said:

I agree with parts of what you are saying.

I don't agree about the identity of the two olive trees,

Aren't we the wild olive branches? Isn't Israel the natural branches?

You have the Holy Spirit as being both the one olive tree and the oil.
================================================
Actually, as far as I'm concerned, this is against the teaching of the Bible.

It is a very dangerous teaching that the Father and Holy Spirit will take on flesh, die and be resurrected in the future.
======================================

I've read the posts.

There are a lot of good points that people make against this theory, and I agree.

Nothing personal about it.
===============================================

Do you really think that God the Father is going to take on a physical body and die?

For what?

For our sins?

Jesus did that already.

=========================================

The truth will be shown.

Are you sure that you want to say that God the Father is going to Die? And the Holy Spirit too?

Think about what you are saying!

badger58 · Jun 13, 2016

abcdef said:

Believe me brother

I have, I have

My fear is that the teaching of the pre trib rapture of the church is lulling the church into a false sense of security.

I believe we are going to be tested far more than you realize.

As for your question: To what purpose would the Father and the Holy Spirit do this? That part is not so clear.

But I think a study into the burnt offering sacrifices holds the answer, as well as a study into the Jewish Holy days.

Take care

the two witnesses are God the Father and the Holy Spirit

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