Whats the deal with Catholics?

[notmyown]

Yes, 'catholic' simply means 'universal' and the Church, the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18,24) is made up of all born again believers and is not simply the Roman Catholic institution. If Jesus returned for His Church today, He would not simply go to the Roman Catholic church or any other particular organization only, but would round up ALL genuine born again Christians regardless of what denomination or non-denominational church they attend.

I've heard people who attend the church of Christ quote Romans 16:16 which says, "the churches of Christ greet you" and claim they are the so called, 'True Church' because of their name. This kind of logic leaves such people in bondage to believing whatever their church tells them is right without question, regardless of what the Bible really teaches. Paul mentions the "church of God" in scripture and there is a denomination with the name "church of God" so should we assume it's the so called 'True Church' because of it's name?

you keep making me laugh today.

 

[Angela53510]

This is what praying is- requesting prayers. We do not look to saints (our brothers and sisters in Christ) as highest power in place of or equal to Christ. Though even as it is biblical, we use them as intercessors just as you would ask someone to pray for you during a hard time. Hope that helps

I just wanted to derail the thread briefly to ask ONELORDONEFAITHONEBAPTISM how many profiles he actually has? I count at least 7 or 8, but I only started recently. I know there were quite a few before that.

It was the all caps name that made me investigate further. Male - age 27, Wisconsin.

Did you know it is against forum rules to have more than one profile? And to what purpose?

This is the first time I have actually seen one of your profiles posting. And you are polite, although I totally disagree with the RCC. Only Jesus saves, not a church denomination. Yep, the RCC is just another denomination!

Anyway, my thought is to close all those other profiles, if they aren't already banned, and just post with one, with a name in lower case, like the rest of us. (Caps for a proper name -first letter only! LOL)

 

[ONELORDONEFAITHONEBAPTISM]

I just wanted to derail the thread briefly to ask ONELORDONEFAITHONEBAPTISM how many profiles he actually has? I count at least 7 or 8, but I only started recently. I know there were quite a few before that.

It was the all caps name that made me investigate further. Male - age 27, Wisconsin.

Did you know it is against forum rules to have more than one profile? And to what purpose?

This is the first time I have actually seen one of your profiles posting. And you are polite, although I totally disagree with the RCC. Only Jesus saves, not a church denomination. Yep, the RCC is just another denomination!

Anyway, my thought is to close all those other profiles, if they aren't already banned, and just post with one, with a name in lower case, like the rest of us. (Caps for a proper name -first letter only! LOL)

Just to confirm, this is my first time on here and I live in Boise, Idaho. I joined yesterday after finding this site. Sorry for breaking "caps" regulations

 

[Miri]

This is what praying is- requesting prayers. We do not look to saints (our brothers and sisters in Christ) as highest power in place of or equal to Christ. Though even as it is biblical, we use them as intercessors just as you would ask someone to pray for you during a hard time. Hope that helps

Praying for each other is good, there is a prayer ministry in my church and lots of
prayer groups. Sometimes we also do what we did this morning and part way through the
service we broke off to pray with the people sat around us.

Matthew 18:19-20 NKJV
[19] "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask,
it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. [20] For where two or three are gathered
together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."



It's good to lift the needs of each other up in prayer.


Were you referring to this or did you have in mind something else?

I think the issue people have is the concept of praying to dead saints (dead Christians)
who cannot intercede and pray for us, Mary included.

 

[ONELORDONEFAITHONEBAPTISM]

Praying for each other is good, there is a prayer ministry in my church and lots of
prayer groups. Sometimes we also do what we did this morning and part way through the
service we broke off to pray with the people sat around us.

Matthew 18:19-20 NKJV
[19] "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask,
it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. [20] For where two or three are gathered
together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."



It's good to lift the needs of each other up in prayer.


Were you referring to this or did you have in mind something else?

I think the issue people have is the concept of praying to dead saints (dead Christians)
who cannot intercede and pray for us, Mary included.

You are agreed and clear until you mentioned the deceased. Christ also said he is the God of the Living. When you die, your soul does not die, and those are also closer to Christ than us. Wouldn't you want their intercession?

 

[Nikki84]

Praying for each other is good, there is a prayer ministry in my church and lots of
prayer groups. Sometimes we also do what we did this morning and part way through the
service we broke off to pray with the people sat around us.

Matthew 18:19-20 NKJV
[19] "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask,
it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. [20] For where two or three are gathered
together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."



It's good to lift the needs of each other up in prayer.


Were you referring to this or did you have in mind something else?

I think the issue people have is the concept of praying to dead saints (dead Christians)
who cannot intercede and pray for us, Mary included.

How do you explain the saints in Heaven constantly lifting up prayers like incense mentioned in Revelation? What are they doing and why?

 

[Nikki84]

Hi nikki, nice to meet you!
I have an interest in this because my sister has started going to church for the first time in her life. I didn't even know until one day when we were working in the yard at moms house and I saw some odd thing on her back, through her shirt. She explained to me it was a...brown scapular? She said it insures if you die suddenly that you will go to heaven. And whenever she comes to moms to visit, she puts fliers around and magnets on the fridge that are prayers they pray to Mary.

Could you help me with why these prayers are made to Mary? It is confusing to me because I only pray to who I worship. So I wonder if you could talk about why they are taught these prayers? Thank you!

Mary is asked to pray for us. Nothing more, nothing less. Just like asking a friend or family member to pray for you

 

[valiant]

You are agreed and clear until you mentioned the deceased. Christ also said he is the God of the Living. When you die, your soul does not die, and those are also closer to Christ than us. Wouldn't you want their intercession?

Christ is the God of the living, but His word clearly teaches us not to pray to the dead. The Christians who have gone on know nothing of what is happening on earth. Thus they cannot pray for us. It is mere sentiment that thinks otherwise,, I realise the RC church teaching is based on sentiment,

 

[Miri]

You are agreed and clear until you mentioned the deceased. Christ also said he is the God of the Living. When you die, your soul does not die, and those are also closer to Christ than us. Wouldn't you want their intercession?

Can you find a bible verse which says we should pray to those who have gone on before
us and are with Jesus?

As far as I am aware there isn't any. But the bible does say there is one mediator between
God and man, that is Jesus.


1 Timothy 2:5 NKJV
[5] For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,


Hebrews 7:22-25 NKJV
[22] by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. [23] Also
there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing.
[24] But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. [
25] Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God
through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.





I realise you have been taught that mediator just means praying for each other so why
can't dead saints intercede for us you may be thinking.

Well the answer is in Hebrews, the priests made intercessory prayer for people by
offering animal sacrifices etc, but they could not continue with this after death.
Their priesthood was temporary while here on earth, but the priesthood of Jesus
is eternal. We therefore no longer need earthly priests to intercede for us and
the only heavenly priest is King Jesus.


So for example in my church we don't have priests, we have pastors and leaders.
One would hope pastors and leaders of any church have reached an appropriate
level of spiritual maturity to be able to teach, expound the bible and pray for others etc.
But in my church WE also pray for our pastors and leaders.

Going back to the priests and the animal sacrifices did you know they were never
really needed anyway! The commandments and animal sacrifices were instituted to
teach the Isrealites about the holiness of God, their sin, the goodness of God, how to
put faith and trust in God etc.

They came out of Egypt with little knowledge and with no spiritual discipline.
They came out with a slave mentality they did not know what to do with their new
found freedom, so much so that when things got hard they pleaded with Moses to send
them back! They also were afraid to speak to God direct and so were more than happy
for Moses to take on this role via Aaron.

They were literally lost sheep millions of them. God gave them rules it's what they needed
its what they expected, to be told what to do.

More than anything the animal sacrifices were just symbols and nothing else, but the
Isrealites needed a practical gesture. It's like telling a prisoner in a cell that they
are free to go and the cell door is no longer locked. But because the cell door is still
shut he can't quite get his head around the concept and stays in the cell. So you
have to physically open the door as a symbolic gesture to show what you mean.

It was like that for the Isrealites they had to be led all the way, they were free but did not
understand the concept of freedom. They needed to put faith and trust in God but they
did not know how to without having the symbolism of the animal sacrifices etc.

Im not sure about you, but I have come across Catholics who are genuinely sincere in
their walk with God, but they don't know how to walk in that freedom, so just like the
Isrealites they surround themselves with symbolism, the hierarchy of priests, the mass,
prayer beads etc.

Though as mentioned above I have seen Catholic Churches in my area start to step out
in the freedom.


Psalm 50:9-15 NLT
[9] But I do not need the bulls from your barns or the goats from your pens.
[10] For all the animals of the forest are mine, and I own the cattle on a
thousand hills. [11] I know every bird on the mountains, and all the animals
of the field are mine. [12] If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for all the
world is mine and everything in it.
[13] Do I eat the meat of bulls? Do I drink the blood of goats?
[14] Make thankfulness your sacrifice to God, and keep the vows you made
to the Most High.
[15] Then call on me when you are in trouble, and I will rescue you, and you
will give me glory."





Psalm 50:8-15 KJV
[8] I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have
been continually before me. [9] I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor
he goats out of thy folds. [10] For every beast of the forest is mine, and the
cattle upon a thousand hills.
[11] I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
[12] If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the
fulness thereof. [13] Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?
[14] Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
[15] And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

 

[valiant]

Mary is asked to pray for us. Nothing more, nothing less. Just like asking a friend or family member to pray for you

Except that Mary is taken up with worshipping God, She does not hear our prayers, any more than any Christian in Heaven does.
it is all based on sentiment, and lack of knowledge of scripture.

 

[valiant]

How do you explain the saints in Heaven constantly lifting up prayers like incense mentioned in Revelation? What are they doing and why?

It is not the saints, In the ancient manuscripts it is the 24 elders who are angels and who figuratively offer up prayers. Or do you see them as offering up billions of written prayers on an offering plate? LOL,

 

[ONELORDONEFAITHONEBAPTISM]

It is not the saints, In the ancient manuscripts it is the 24 elders who are angels and who figuratively offer up prayers. Or do you see them as offering up billions of written prayers on an offering plate? LOL,

"LOL" it reads " the prayers of the saints." means the saints pray.

 

[posthuman]

How do you explain the saints in Heaven constantly lifting up prayers like incense mentioned in Revelation? What are they doing and why?

is this what you are referring to?

And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand.
(Revelation 8:2-4)
​

i think MYNAMEISREALLYLONGANDALLINCAPSISNTTHATCLEVER is right, here. this is figuratively associating our prayers with incense before the altar of God in heaven. that's all.
and the text says it's an angel involved, not a saint - and that the prayers of God's people are mixed with the incense - not that they are incense: but together they make a sweet smell to the Lord.

 

[Miri]

How do you explain the saints in Heaven constantly lifting up prayers like incense mentioned in Revelation? What are they doing and why?

You mean this?

Revelation 8:3-6 NKJV
[3] Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar.
He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the
saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. [4] And the smoke
of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the
angel's hand. [5] Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the
altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings,
and an earthquake. [6] So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared
themselves to sound.


if you read back a few posts you will see where I explained saint is a term used to
describe Gods people who are spiritually born again. The verse does not imply saints
are dead people who have gone to be with the Lord. We are saints if we belong to
Jesus and I am very much alive. The verses refer to our prayers which have
gone up to Jesus.



Psalm 141:1-2 NKJV
[1] LORD, I cry out to You; Make haste to me! Give ear to my voice when I cry
out to You. [2] Let my prayer be set before You as incense, The lifting up of
my hands as the evening sacrifice.


Isn't that just amazing that my prayers and your prayers are as incense to God!
Truly stunning. Yet for some Catholics they bypass the pleasure and awesome
privilege of taking their requests direct to Jesus in the belief they have to go through
others, a priest, dead saints, Mary etc.

Dont give away the awesome gift of prayer you have been given to another.

You know what, I just wish I could sit down with you face to face and explain the awesome
way God has answered my direct prayers over this last 18 months. Here is a taster but there
has been so much more.


http://christianchat.com/testimonies/126117-miraculous-healing-80-year-old.html



http://christianchat.com/testimonies/111548-god-has-provided-20-million-church.html

 

[posthuman]

You mean this?

Revelation 8:3-6 NKJV
[3] Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar.
He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the
saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. [4] And the smoke
of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the
angel's hand. [5] Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the
altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings,
and an earthquake. [6] So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared
themselves to sound.

haha beat you to it by 20 seconds, sis!

 

[posthuman]

Mary is asked to pray for us. Nothing more, nothing less. Just like asking a friend or family member to pray for you

why Mary?
why not your actual mother, or someone you can actually communicate with?
why not Christ Himself? because of His grace toward us, we can go boldly before the throne, remember?

or if you want to pray to the dead ((asleep - mere semantics)) to get them to pray for you, why not pray to some saint who the scripture actually records as having been successful in interceding with the Lord, or powerful in prayer?
why aren't you praying to Moses to pray for you? or Elijah?

heck, Elijah didn't even die -- so there's not that possible issue of a 'great chasm' between the living and the dead/asleep in Christ, and no one will accuse you of practicing divinations and sorceries, like Saul consulting the witch of Endor. which doesn't sound far from the truth. Samuel didn't appear to be very pleased -- if that was Samuel, and the text really doesn't indicate that it wasn't.

to me it sounds so arbitrary, impractical and just such a poor choice overall -- in a purely objective sense -- and the discussions about practices such as this being not unlike whoring Israel joining Ashtoreh to YHWH really are quite convincing, and a good fit.

you have to admit that as good as someone's intentions might sound when this is all pencil-and-paper, in practice for many people it really is nothing more than idolatry. i've seen people literally bowing to Mary statues in Catholic gardens, kissing their feet. not in some backwater country, either -- in Dallas Texas. so what is that? at least, what's that blatantly the appearance of?
i built pipe organs for a number of years and have been to a lot of great cathedrals, many of them Catholic, spending weeks at a time there working, and watching people and listening.

 

[Miri]

haha beat you to it by 20 seconds, sis!

Im just a typical woman - long winded. Lol

 

[ONELORDONEFAITHONEBAPTISM]

Can you find a bible verse which says we should pray to those who have gone on before
us and are with Jesus?

As far as I am aware there isn't any. But the bible does say there is one mediator between
God and man, that is Jesus.


1 Timothy 2:5 NKJV
[5] For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,


Hebrews 7:22-25 NKJV
[22] by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. [23] Also
there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing.
[24] But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. [
25] Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God
through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.





I realise you have been taught that mediator just means praying for each other so why
can't dead saints intercede for us you may be thinking.

Well the answer is in Hebrews, the priests made intercessory prayer for people by
offering animal sacrifices etc, but they could not continue with this after death.
Their priesthood was temporary while here on earth, but the priesthood of Jesus
is eternal. We therefore no longer need earthly priests to intercede for us and
the only heavenly priest is King Jesus.


So for example in my church we don't have priests, we have pastors and leaders.
One would hope pastors and leaders of any church have reached an appropriate
level of spiritual maturity to be able to teach, expound the bible and pray for others etc.
But in my church WE also pray for our pastors and leaders.

Going back to the priests and the animal sacrifices did you know they were never
really needed anyway! The commandments and animal sacrifices were instituted to
teach the Isrealites about the holiness of God, their sin, the goodness of God, how to
put faith and trust in God etc.

They came out of Egypt with little knowledge and with no spiritual discipline.
They came out with a slave mentality they did not know what to do with their new
found freedom, so much so that when things got hard they pleaded with Moses to send
them back! They also were afraid to speak to God direct and so were more than happy
for Moses to take on this role via Aaron.

They were literally lost sheep millions of them. God gave them rules it's what they needed
its what they expected, to be told what to do.

More than anything the animal sacrifices were just symbols and nothing else, but the
Isrealites needed a practical gesture. It's like telling a prisoner in a cell that they
are free to go and the cell door is no longer locked. But because the cell door is still
shut he can't quite get his head around the concept and stays in the cell. So you
have to physically open the door as a symbolic gesture to show what you mean.

It was like that for the Isrealites they had to be led all the way, they were free but did not
understand the concept of freedom. They needed to put faith and trust in God but they
did not know how to without having the symbolism of the animal sacrifices etc.

Im not sure about you, but I have come across Catholics who are genuinely sincere in
their walk with God, but they don't know how to walk in that freedom, so just like the
Isrealites they surround themselves with symbolism, the hierarchy of priests, the mass,
prayer beads etc.

Though as mentioned above I have seen Catholic Churches in my area start to step out
in the freedom.


Psalm 50:9-15 NLT
[9] But I do not need the bulls from your barns or the goats from your pens.
[10] For all the animals of the forest are mine, and I own the cattle on a
thousand hills. [11] I know every bird on the mountains, and all the animals
of the field are mine. [12] If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for all the
world is mine and everything in it.
[13] Do I eat the meat of bulls? Do I drink the blood of goats?
[14] Make thankfulness your sacrifice to God, and keep the vows you made
to the Most High.
[15] Then call on me when you are in trouble, and I will rescue you, and you
will give me glory."





Psalm 50:8-15 KJV
[8] I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have
been continually before me. [9] I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor
he goats out of thy folds. [10] For every beast of the forest is mine, and the
cattle upon a thousand hills.
[11] I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
[12] If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the
fulness thereof. [13] Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?
[14] Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
[15] And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

Nowhere does it say " pray to your deceased saints" if that is what you are asking. Though no where does it say "do not speak with your brothers and sister in Christ living or dead." Why don't you pray to your deceased brothers and sisters in Christ? Is praying for/to your deceased relative wrong then? Food for thought. We are encouraged to rely on eachother in multiple occasions in scripture. Hebrews 11 11-12 shows the "great cloud of witnesses" who are deceased saints in Christ after being persecuted for their Christianity. I already mentioned about the saints having prayers in Rev 5, now looks at what happens with the saints prayers in Rev 8:3-5. How did the saints (our brothers and sisters deceased in Heaven) receive prayers? Why did they need to pray? If Christ is the only omniscient one? Bingo. Your point of priests in Heb 7 is referring to the Mosiac law practices- so I agree with that and remember that does not refer to Christ's covenant priests. So the rest of your paragraph is irrelevant. Catholic Priests don't sacrifice animals, that law is dead according to Christ and St. Paul. That is great your elders and church pray for eachother, that as well as praying for our deceased brothers and sisters has been going on as part of the Church since Christ and actually before (2 Macc 12:43-45) Something to take into account though to, by what authority do your pastors and leaders have to preach? Christ established a SINGLE church. How do you know they are correct? Considering holy scripture is not for any one person's interpretation, who started that Church? The Catholic church was historically, biblically, and spiritually established by Christ. The next "church" to come was 1500 years later by a heretic. Thereon the rest of the "protestants" came. Not everyone who believes a protestant christian faith is a heretic, but the ones who started them are. You are right, there are many Catholics who are faithful and great Christians, but there are many who aren't. This is the same with any other belief as well. Some more food for thought, Christ said hid Church would be as a mustard seed: start as one of the smallest of seeds, though grow into one of the largest of trees. Which is the only Christian church to follow his prophesy? The Catholic Church. It is the largest organized Christian church on the planet. Larger than all the new Christian man-made faiths combined. These were Jesus words. One correction though, these "lost" Catholics you speak of who mean well, though don't know better like the Israelites because they follow the hierarchy, prayer beads, symbolism- I think you have been mis-led. This IS Christ's church! In Luke 24 on the road to Emmaus the first thing Jesus did with the two apostles was mass! First the liturgy of the word showing them how all scripture points to Him, then the breaking of the bread. Which He was made known through- The "Marriage supper of the Lamb" (Rev19).

 

[Vdp]

There is ONLY one intercessor between us and God and He is Jesus Christ.

Not Mary, not the Saints, ONLY Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

There is only one mediator, intercessor, between us and God and He is Jesus. It a Mortal sin to teach the Saints and Mary also are our intercessor. This is a lie from Satan the Catholics have bought into and this lie will keep the Catholics in the Lake of Fire for all Eternity.

Until you Catholics reject Mary and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will spend Eternity in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Nikki84]

There is ONLY one intercessor between us and God and He is Jesus Christ.

Not Mary, not the Saints, ONLY Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

There is only one mediator, intercessor, between us and God and He is Jesus. It a Mortal sin to teach the Saints and Mary also are our intercessor. This is a lie from Satan the Catholics have bought into and this lie will keep the Catholics in the Lake of Fire for all Eternity.

Until you Catholics reject Mary and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will spend Eternity in the Lake of Fire.

I am very blessed that I'm not a member of your church. If our Lord's mother upsets you so much like this, I want no part of that church