Mysticism & righteousness

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Have you read any of the writings of true mystics, peter? Sermons on The Song of Songs? Dark Night of the Soul/Saint John of the Cross? Bernard Clairvaux? Bother Lawrence? The Goad of Love/Walter Hilton? These are just a few. You will not find doctrinal arguments in their writings because they have moved beyond that into living a crucified life. Their longing is for holiness of heart before God. They've gone beyond what most of us have. They've left it behind. They want holiness so they can praise God WORTHILY. They have seen that there is something beyond "being saved." They don't believe Gods purpose was to save them from hell. They believe His purpose in saving them was to make them more like Christ. You won't find them at the places a lot of christians go. They live separated from the world because they have died to it. You won't find them at a football game, screaming in delight at touchdowns. You won't find them hiring designers to make their home look beautiful. Not that these things are something they would rant and rave and condemn others over. You just won't find THEM there. They won't look or talk like all of the other christians you see. They will look very odd to others. They won't defend themselves. They won't argue over doctrine but they can help those who have begun to die to self. The very church they have been in has often treated them harshly and not understood them. The only ones who understand them are others who have begun on this way of the crucified life. You won't find them defending voraciously any man or teacher, but you will find them listening and taking away only what parts of what another man says that will help them to die more so they can please God more. They understand that to choose this road of self-abegnation is hard and painful. They assume that anyone who might be even a little interested in what they have to say has already begun in this way. They would prefer that theological doctors and debaters not even read what they have written because they know it won't help them or anyone else for them to read it. In fact, anyone not having begun on this way will become bored very quickly by their writing. If something they read helps them to die more, they rejoice in it and thank God for giving the book or sermon to them. I can give you a more extensive list of writings that are considered mystical if you want to see that what I am saying is true. You won't find them rejoicing in being righteous or holy. You will find them rejoicing at great difficulties and struggles within themselves because they have seen it makes them more like their Lord. They have understood that the path to growing holiness is death to their wants, desires, defense of self, personal comfort, possessions, etc. Self fulfillment to them is contrary to what the world thinks of as self fulfillment. Self fulfillment to them is dying.

I highlighted a few things that stand out to me. The gnostics are known for being libertines, but also they were as much, or more so, ascetics, who valued and practiced the things highlighted above. Paul appears to have been addressing gnostic asceticism in Colossians 2:20-23

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. Colossians 2:20-23​

 

[Ariel82]

The answer to Gnostics is not to become Judaizier but to show how God wants us to be in this world and how Jesus ate and spoke to sinners. He didn't spend all his time mediating on mountain tops through he did occassionally go there to pray.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I highlighted a few things that stand out to me. The gnostics are known for being libertines, but also they were as much, or more so, ascetics, who valued and practiced the things highlighted above. Paul appears to have been addressing gnostic asceticism in Colossians 2:20-23

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. Colossians 2:20-23​

I'm not understanding what you say here. Could you expound?

 

[PeterJens]

No it doesnt.

The New covenant is based upon Christ redeeming work on the cross totally NOT dependent at all on the old covenant.

The new covenant is the fulfillment of the old. They are different is scope but with the same message, God is interested in people finding him on his terms. To talk about no dependency is to miss the whole significance of the story.

 

[garee]

Mysticism is not a biblical doctrine .It only provides a way to seduce a person into believing they are being revealed new revelations from God.

The last new revelation that added to the others in the book of the law, the Bible before Christ’s revealed will was complete.... ended over two thousand years ago. Because of that when we test the spirits to see if they are of the things of God and not those of men for the last two thousand years if any man say thus saytheth the lord and it is not taken from the scriptures we can know blasphemy is in view.

Mysticism is the same as what some call a "private revelation" This is a philosophical theory that the Catholic church puts forward again to give the illusion of an ongoing as far as revealing new revelations, which to them do add to their kind of faith that they have in respect to men outwardly. It’s simply old age and called new age. The same promise applies as a private revelation. Win, win. . If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true.

Pope Urban VIII on Private Revelation
His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings "as if it had been true", because you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The new covenant is the fulfillment of the old. They are different is scope but with the same message, God is interested in people finding him on his terms. To talk about no dependency is to miss the whole significance of the story.

Too Funny! I was just a moment ago thinking, I guess we won't see peter tonight because it must be after 11 p.m. for him!
I don't understand what you've said here.
Did you mean to say dependency or no dependency?

 

[breno785au]

Mysticism is the belief in super-spiritual events which are the only important aspect of life.

The hyper-grace movement is a mystical theology wrapped in christian dress.

It opposes walking in righteousness, moral law and calls this legalism.

The Lords word is to be saved we must walk in righteousness. You cannot be saved and abide in sin.

Unfortunately for me, this thread seems like you are saying it can only be one or the other. Correct me I have misinterpreted.
I personally have had a number of encounters with God throughout my walk thus far, or you could say spiritual experiences. I once though early in my walk that they defined your relationship with God but I no longer think that. So, I do believe we can and do have spiritual encounters yet at the same time walking in righteousness. I think encounters can change you, more so give you more hunger and thirst for God but I have also seen them make no difference in peoples lives.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Mysticism is not a biblical doctrine .It only provides a way to seduce a person into believing they are being revealed new revelations from God.

The last new revelation that added to the others in the book of the law, the Bible before Christ’s revealed will was complete.... ended over two thousand years ago. Because of that when we test the spirits to see if they are of the things of God and not those of men for the last two thousand years if any man say thus saytheth the lord and it is not taken from the scriptures we can know blasphemy is in view.

Mysticism is the same as what some call a "private revelation" This is a philosophical theory that the Catholic church puts forward again to give the illusion of an ongoing as far as revealing new revelations, which to them do add to their kind of faith that they have in respect to men outwardly. It’s simply old age and called new age. The same promise applies as a private revelation. Win, win. . If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true.

My goodness...!
That quote is unbelievable...
It's saying...hedge your bets, just believe EVERYTHING...
Yikes...

 

[jaybird88]

Mysticism is not a biblical doctrine .It only provides a way to seduce a person into believing they are being revealed new revelations from God.

The last new revelation that added to the others in the book of the law, the Bible before Christ’s revealed will was complete.... ended over two thousand years ago. Because of that when we test the spirits to see if they are of the things of God and not those of men for the last two thousand years if any man say thus saytheth the lord and it is not taken from the scriptures we can know blasphemy is in view.

Mysticism is the same as what some call a "private revelation" This is a philosophical theory that the Catholic church puts forward again to give the illusion of an ongoing as far as revealing new revelations, which to them do add to their kind of faith that they have in respect to men outwardly. It’s simply old age and called new age. The same promise applies as a private revelation. Win, win. . If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true.

if there is no "private revelation" then you are left with blind faith or church dependency.

 

[PeterJens]

Unfortunately for me, this thread seems like you are saying it can only be one or the other. Correct me I have misinterpreted.
I personally have had a number of encounters with God throughout my walk thus far, or you could say spiritual experiences. I once though early in my walk that they defined your relationship with God but I no longer think that. So, I do believe we can and do have spiritual encounters yet at the same time walking in righteousness. I think encounters can change you, more so give you more hunger and thirst for God but I have also seen them make no difference in peoples lives.

It is difficult to summarise the theology or ethic. If you say the only thing that matters is the exstatic, you move away from theology and behaviour into personal experience. The more modern versions appear to be creating a other world view which involves letting go and letting God, where negativism becomes evil, and the exstatic experiences desired, singing in tongues, gold dust, angel feathers, rather than practical content and focus on normal lives and good works.

Within this is this schozophrenic belief of perfect new heart, and worldly flesh, were the flesh is evil and the spirit is good.
Now spiritual experiences with God, God touching me and affirming his love and acceptance is very real.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I see he was a pope from the 1600's. I almost find it difficult to believe that anyone fell for that...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

if there is no "private revelation" then you are left with blind faith or church dependency.

I think he is seeing private revelation in a different way than you...maybe...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It is difficult to summarise the theology or ethic. If you say the only thing that matters is the exstatic, you move away from theology and behaviour into personal experience. The more modern versions appear to be creating a other world view which involves letting go and letting God, where negativism becomes evil, and the exstatic experiences desired, singing in tongues, gold dust, angel feathers, rather than practical content and focus on normal lives and good works.

Within this is this schozophrenic belief of perfect new heart, and worldly flesh, were the flesh is evil and the spirit is good.
Now spiritual experiences with God, God touching me and affirming his love and acceptance is very real.

I don't think so much that people believe the flesh is evil...
I think when they talk about fleshly things they mean carnal things that are in enmity to God like...pride, selfishness, self will, etc.

 

[mpaper345]

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


Speaking of Ezekiel where the Jews that did not comply got cut off if they stayed in that position,the same rule applies today,that if you do not comply you will be cut off,if you stay in that position.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

We do not void out the law,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,the moral laws,and laws of love,and anything spiritual is to be followed.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The thing is some people confuse the flesh,with the Spirit.

Not saved by works,talking according to the flesh,people doing works apart from Christ,believing they can have a relationship with God.

Faith without works is dead,talking according to the Spirit,which not all are led of the Spirit,and not all who claim Christ as Lord,is His.

Saved by faith,not saved by faith alone,some look at is according to the flesh,and not the Spirit,which is not saved by faith alone.

Cannot abstain from sin,for we are human,looking at it according to the flesh,can abstain from sin,looking at it according to the Spirit.

Not under the law,some look at it according to the flesh,like it is not very important to obey the law,not under the law,according to the Spirit,that they are abstaining from sin,so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

And so forth,that some people are looking at things according to the flesh,and not according to the Spirit.

But a person that accepts Christ can always be led of the Spirit,and see things in the proper perspective,no matter when they allow that to happen,and can deny the Spirit,but can allow the Spirit to lead them again.

But if a person believes things that causes them to have a casual look at their lifestyle,like they will mess up with no way around it to stop it,the question can they be led of the Spirit with that attitude,or will they be led of the Spirit.

So is the qualification to be saved in this doctrine,believe in once saved,always saved,as if they cannot fall away,and you are saved.

 

[Nikki84]

Mysticism is not a biblical doctrine .It only provides a way to seduce a person into believing they are being revealed new revelations from God.

The last new revelation that added to the others in the book of the law, the Bible before Christ’s revealed will was complete.... ended over two thousand years ago. Because of that when we test the spirits to see if they are of the things of God and not those of men for the last two thousand years if any man say thus saytheth the lord and it is not taken from the scriptures we can know blasphemy is in view.

Mysticism is the same as what some call a "private revelation" This is a philosophical theory that the Catholic church puts forward again to give the illusion of an ongoing as far as revealing new revelations, which to them do add to their kind of faith that they have in respect to men outwardly. It’s simply old age and called new age. The same promise applies as a private revelation. Win, win. . If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true.

Hi garee. Please tell more of this Catholic mysticism. I have not heard of it

 

[garee]

if there is no "private revelation" then you are left with blind faith or church dependency.

Hi Brother, thanks for the reply. I see that a lisle differently.

I believe, in the end of the matter I would be left depending on His revealed, living abiding word. Not on the church and their own private revelations, as private interpretations also called called commentaries of men..

Private revelations are simply private interpretations coming from one‘s own imagination as a personal understanding or commentary of what one believes. It is a product of ones conscience like finger prints each one a little different than the guy across the street or across the world. . A clear distinction between the things of God and those of men must be made if we are to hear God, by faith (his) aright..

God is greater that the conscience he has given us which is separate from His conscience

Remember he is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases . He performs that which is appointed to us .It is God who works in us to both will and do His good pleasure called a imputed righteousness (not of our own selves) It is he who make our hearts soft to receive the incorruptible seed of His living abiding word. by which any man can be born from above. Need more words than he has given us?.

Every man has an opinion that they can offer as a private interpretation. We know Christ after the scriptures (his non private interpretation as all things written in the law and the prophets .The idea of him adding to His word only shows others they need more than he gives us.

Knowing this first, that no “prophecy of the scripture” is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved “by the Holy Ghost”. 2Pe 1:20

We are not to look for new prophecy. What we had in part up until the last chapter(Revelation) we now have the whole, perfect, as in complete. Its the work of Christ's faith, as a labor of His love.It is called the mutual faith belonging to Christ which he mutually gives as a free gift to every Christian. As it guards us as we guard it with all our heart soul and mind.

If any man has not the faith of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God then neither do they belong to Him but are still dead in their trespasses and sin .without hope and God in this world. In the end either we have the Spirit of Christ or we do not.


But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the “Spirit of God” dwell in you. Now if any man have not the “Spirit of Christ”, he is none of his .And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:9 Romans 8:11

 

[miknik5]

It's no use. I can't stay away. I'm supposed to be here with you guys right now.

Changing the name from hyper grace to mystics is not going to help! No one can be placed under these titles because all of us are too varied and different in which points of any organized doctrine of any group we do and do not accept or believe. You have to deal with people one on one. To do anything else takes away their uniqueness and their dignity as people. This is what prejudice does. It gives a whole group of people a single story.

Have you read any of the writings of true mystics, peter? Sermons on The Song of Songs? Dark Night of the Soul/Saint John of the Cross? Bernard Clairvaux? Bother Lawrence? The Goad of Love/Walter Hilton? These are just a few. You will not find doctrinal arguments in their writings because they have moved beyond that into living a crucified life. Their longing is for holiness of heart before God. They've gone beyond what most of us have. They've left it behind. They want holiness so they can praise God WORTHILY. They have seen that there is something beyond "being saved." They don't believe Gods purpose was to save them from hell. They believe His purpose in saving them was to make them more like Christ. You won't find them at the places a lot of christians go. They live separated from the world because they have died to it. You won't find them at a football game, screaming in delight at touchdowns. You won't find them hiring designers to make their home look beautiful. Not that these things are something they would rant and rave and condemn others over. You just won't find THEM there. They won't look or talk like all of the other christians you see. They will look very odd to others. They won't defend themselves. They won't argue over doctrine but they can help those who have begun to die to self. The very church they have been in has often treated them harshly and not understood them. The only ones who understand them are others who have begun on this way of the crucified life. You won't find them defending voraciously any man or teacher, but you will find them listening and taking away only what parts of what another man says that will help them to die more so they can please God more. They understand that to choose this road of self-abegnation is hard and painful. They assume that anyone who might be even a little interested in what they have to say has already begun in this way. They would prefer that theological doctors and debaters not even read what they have written because they know it won't help them or anyone else for them to read it. In fact, anyone not having begun on this way will become bored very quickly by their writing. If something they read helps them to die more, they rejoice in it and thank God for giving the book or sermon to them. I can give you a more extensive list of writings that are considered mystical if you want to see that what I am saying is true. You won't find them rejoicing in being righteous or holy. You will find them rejoicing at great difficulties and struggles within themselves because they have seen it makes them more like their Lord. They have understood that the path to growing holiness is death to their wants, desires, defense of self, personal comfort, possessions, etc. Self fulfillment to them is contrary to what the world thinks of as self fulfillment. Self fulfillment to them is dying.

But these whom you have mentioned ALL began (in their walk) where they should have begun in.
And that is CHRIST...and the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL...

 

[jaybird88]

Private revelations are simply private interpretations coming from one‘s own imagination as a personal understanding or commentary of what one believes. It is a product of ones conscience like finger prints each one a little different than the guy across the street or across the world. . A clear distinction between the things of God and those of men must be made if we are to hear God, by faith (his) aright..

the Lord can not communicate with us? so what was all that Jesus was talking about, personal relationship with the Father and all that? if its all in our head we might as well bow down to a tree stump in the woods.

 

[miknik5]

The difference with the ones you mentioned above were they that contemplated CHRIST and from their LOVE of HIM, had a desire to please HIM.

They weren't mystics in the sense that they did not know who and what they worshipped.
They DID know who and what they worshipped...and all things were nothing but CHRIST...


In the dark night of the soul, John went out on this dark night of the soul for love of the bridegroom and he sought the bridegroom because of his love for the bridegroom.

He simply sought CHRIST for CHRIST...

 

[garee]

Hi garee. Please tell more of this Catholic mysticism. I have not heard of it

Thanks , I can share my opinion.

I can give you an example of mysticism as to how it works to deceive those who have another form of worship in respect to that seen coming from a mystic called Faustina... She claims to have received a new revelation that they must call a private revelation which is simply a private interpretation coming from her own fleshly mind. as to things she did not see according to the that kind of doctrine. She was simply using her own fleshly conscience as a source of faith.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he “hath not seen”, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

In the end of the matter she claimed that Christ who has no form appeared in front of her for a portrait or image used to commune with him. and by merely looking at it a person is promised they will not perish.

This is mimicking God who used the serpent on a brass pole which became a object of worship rather than a reminder that we walk by faith and not by sight.

She as a false prophet wrote:

In the evening, when I was in my cell, I saw the Lord Jesus clothed in a white garment. One hand [was] raised in the gesture of blessing; the other was touching the garment at the breast. From beneath the garment, slightly drawn aside at the breast, there were emanating two large rays, one red, the other pale. In silence I kept my gaze fixed on the Lord; my soul was struck with awe, but also with great joy. After a while, Jesus said to me, "Paint an image according to the pattern you see, with the signature: Jesus, I trust in You. I desire that this image be venerated, first in your chapel, and [then] throughout the world"

It simply a way of promoting mysticism to give the illusion God is still bringing new prophecy like that of another mystic called Padre Pio, and the bleeding of his hand because of the acid he used and the perfume from women who the confessed there sin to Mr Pio , it was used to cover the stench of burning flesh. its the same kind of perfume that some say today the smell as the sweet aroma by which they can know Padre Pio is present among them. It deceived many and is still doing its work as a disembodied worker with a familiar spirit that the Catholic s call patron saints . Mysticism provides a whole “legion” of mystics called patron saints (3500 and rising) that are worshiped by the pew Catholics. The non-venerable ones.

She wrote:.......And certainly the image of the Resurrected Jesus, with His pierced hands and feet, reminds us of the love God has for us. Jesus loves us so much that He died for each one of us! Jesus said, "I am offering people a vessel with which they are to keep coming for graces to the fountain of mercy. That vessel is this image with the signature: 'Jesus, I trust in you'" (Diary, 327).

She also wrote....He said, "By means of this image I shall be granting many graces to souls; so let every soul have access to it" (Diary, 570).

or again she wrote...Jesus also said: "I promise that the soul that will venerate this image will not perish. I also promise victory over [its] enemies already here on earth, especially at the hour of death. I Myself will defend it as My own glory" (Diary, 48).