Lordship Salvation is false teaching

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Scriptureplz

Guest
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Scriptureplz,

how did you come to the conclusion that we were saying that 'unbelievers' develop Faith?
this is an 'impossibility according to scripture...we were speaking of the 'life of Abraham',
and fellow believers and how Abraham's life was a picture of the development of his FAITH...
JAMES 2:21. - Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

11TIM. 4:7. - I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

these two heroes of Faith are our examples of reaching the Mountaintop of Faith through Christ Jesus,
who dwelt in them...

as it is written, 'Not by power, not by might, but by My Spirit, saith The Lord.'







but to say an unbeliever has to "develop" faith to be saved is false according to scripture. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". Romans 10:17
Is it your understanding that believers have to maintain their faith to be saved? As I said before, the OP is about justification, not sanctification. I am just trying to stay on topic. The bible teaches when we have believed the gospel we are saved at that point. We don't have to wait until we die to see if we 'remained faithful enough'. God tells us we are saved at that moment we believed the gospel and sealed with the Holy Spirit.
 
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Scriptureplz

Guest
I strongly oppise "easy believism". Where someone leads people in the "sinners prayer" and have them confess Jesus then abandons them....no watering, no mentoring or discipleship...


That is what "easy believism" false gospel does to people.

Not sure if anyone claims to believe in that false gospel but that is what Lordship salvation is meant to answer...

So if you don't believe in Lordship salvation, how do you counter that kind of false gospel?

You just made my point for me. Lordship Salvation was meant to teach against simple faith and that is exactly why it's false. Jesus said unless you come as a child you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He taught discipleship but not in order to be saved. Discipleship is not a requirement of salvation.

There are likely more false professions based on legalism than the "sinners prayer". I understand what you are talking about and I agree there are some that have not taught the truth on both sides of this issue of false professions, but adding to what God says is not the answer. When you add sanctification truths and justification truths together you create a false gospel. Surely you recognize the truth in what I'm saying about LS. By trying to correct a problem, it added to it with it's own false professions because of man's intervention where only the Spirit of God was suppose to be.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Some of those points include the Gospel but some e.g. #6 should be in the sanctification arena.
Never do we read in Acts, for example, "Repent, and believe and fully surrender your life to Jesus and you will be saved".

Paul makes clear the Gospel he was given and we should not add to it...

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
(1Co 15:1-4)

That is the Gospel to be believed by which one is saved.
Why can't he be referring to both salvation and sanctification?

I skimmed back over and did not see where the list is for salvation only.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Is it your understanding that believers have to maintain their faith to be saved? As I said before, the OP is about justification, not sanctification. I am just trying to stay on topic. The bible teaches when we have believed the gospel we are saved at that point. We don't have to wait until we die to see if we 'remained faithful enough'. God tells us we are saved at that moment we believed the gospel and sealed with the Holy Spirit.
But isn't believing the gospel something man does?

I don't understand how you can put that condition and still call it grace.

(okay totally tongue in cheek)

In all seriousness, repentance and belief that Jesus is Lord is not adding conditions to grace because even that is a work of the Holy spirit in a person's heart.
 
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Scriptureplz

Guest
In all seriousness, repentance and belief that Jesus is Lord is not adding conditions to grace because even that is a work of the Holy spirit in a person's heart.
The work of the Holy Spirit in an unbelievers heart is to convict of unbelief (John 16:8-9). When an unbeliever repents (changes their mind) and believes the truth of the gospel, they are saved at that moment, regardless of the life they lead. Grace is unconditional.

Turning from sin is man made doctrine. Eternal life is a completely free gift from God based on grace through faith in Christ alone. (Romans 3-5)
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If just these two verses (please read them) could be understood by "loadship" believers, they would see how wrong their doctrine is and maybe come to the truth, or at least be in the right direction.

These two verses show .....


1. We are all condemned
2. Only ONE person has ever been "righteous"
3. His righteousness is available to all men
4. "Justification of life" is a "free gift" made available by His obedience


There is no other possible way to be "justified" but by faith in Him! (Romans 4.3, 5:1, Gal. 2:16, Eph. 8)
"There are none righteous, no not one." (Romans 3:10,23)


Jesus is the only way. If we have placed our trust in our own righteousness, we have rejected Him (Romans 10:1-5). Salvation is a SPIRITUAL work of God (Col. 2:11) done when we place ALL our trust in Jesus and HIS "finished work". We are "born of God" (John 3:6) when we have believed the gospel, not when we prove something to God who has already told us our righteousness is like "filthy rags" in His site! (Isaiah 64:6)


After we have been saved, His spirit lives in us and will guide us in how to live and if we follow Him (Romans 12:1-2), we become His "disciples" which is not required for salvation. God said salvation is a "free gift". (Romans 3:24-26, 5:15-21, 6:23)


Bottom line.....
If you are trusting in your own righteous works of obedience as "evidence" that you are saved, the bible says you are either lost or deceived!
(Matt. 10:10-13, Romans 10:1-5, Galatians 3)
Okay rereading the OP I see what you are trying to talk about.

People should not trust in their works or how good a disciple they are for their justification. (which Lordship salvation doesn't teach but we will let you have your straw man to burn)

The only way someone can know they are a child of God is if they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

What do you tell someone who doesn't hear or feel the Holy Spirit in their lives?
 
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Ariel82

Guest
The work of the Holy Spirit in an unbelievers heart is to convict of unbelief (John 16:8-9). When an unbeliever repents (changes their mind) and believes the truth of the gospel, they are saved at that moment, regardless of the life they lead. Grace is unconditional.

Turning from sin is man made doctrine. Eternal life is a completely free gift from God based on grace through faith in Christ alone. (Romans 3-5)
So they only have to Repent of their unbelief not their other sins?

So it's okay for people to use God's grace as a free ticket to heaven?

What if they never feel repentant about sinning but only worry they may be punished?

Wait...did you say work of the Holy Spirit in unbelievers?
 
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The work of the Holy Spirit in an unbelievers heart is to convict of unbelief (John 16:8-9). When an unbeliever repents (changes their mind) and believes the truth of the gospel, they are saved at that moment, regardless of the life they lead. Grace is unconditional.

Turning from sin is man made doctrine. Eternal life is a completely free gift from God based on grace through faith in Christ alone. (Romans 3-5)
Turning from sin is one of the crucial messages of the entire bible.

The redefinition of repentance to mean awakening to who you are in Christ is the work of a gnostic spirit.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
*But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.*When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:*about sin, because people do not believe in me;*about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;*and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. - John 16:7-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John16:7-11&version=NIV

Jesus talking to His disciples.....okay next scripture...
 
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Turning from sin is one of the crucial messages of the entire bible.

The redefinition of repentance to mean awakening to who you are in Christ is the work of a gnostic spirit.

Turning to Christ is the message of the bible. Believing in Christ is the gospel message! You have heard of Jesus?..and that He will deliver us from sin?...that He is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world?

At some point we are going to have to start believing in Christ and what He has done for us in His finished work.

I strongly encourage you to start believing in Christ for salvation and true life.
 
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Scriptureplz

Guest
Okay rereading the OP I see what you are trying to talk about.

People should not trust in their works or how good a disciple they are for their justification. (which Lordship salvation doesn't teach but we will let you have your straw man to burn)

The only way someone can know they are a child of God is if they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

What do you tell someone who doesn't hear or feel the Holy Spirit in their lives?

You calling this a "straw man", doesn't make it so. This will be my last response to you on this post. If you believe I am building a straw man, you don't believe eternal life is a free gift. Reading the scripture I have suggested is what you need to do instead of trying to debate me.

Many seem to believe that you're not a Christian unless you're a disciple. You don't even have to be a disciple to be a Christian. Why did Jesus instruct His disciples in John 15 on how to continue being disciples after He left them if being a disciple was what made them Christians? Judas was a disciple, but he was not saved according to scripture.

My point is to show that LS adds to the gospel of grace which is to suggest that one has to "surrender" or to "turn from their sins" to be saved. As I have said before, these are important in a believers life, but they are not required to be saved, and many are being taught that it is required, and THAT makes it a false gospel!

Sanctification and justification cannot be mixed. We are justified when we trust in Christ as our savior. That is faith in Him. When our trust is in our discipleship, that is not faith in Him.

If someone doesn't feel the closeness of the Spirit in their lives, that does not mean the Spirit has left them. Our obedience and "abiding" in Him is what causes us to bear fruit of the Spirit. Faith is part of that fruit. No abiding, no fruit, weak faith. Abiding in Him means more fruit, stronger faith.
 
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Scriptureplz

Guest
*But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.*When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:*about sin, because people do not believe in me;*about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;*and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. - John 16:7-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John16:7-11&version=NIV

Jesus talking to His disciples.....okay next scripture...
Recognizing our sin is part of believing. We can't know we need to be saved until we recognize sin. But teaching people they are saved by turning from sin is a false gospel. Jesus died for us "while we were yet sinners" (Rom. 5:8). Even while we were "dead in sin" He "quickened us together" (Eph.2:5).

Have a good day!
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Luke 5:32
Verse Concepts
"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

James 5:19-20
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Jeremiah 25:4-6
"And the LORD has sent to you all His servants the prophets again and again, but you have not listened nor inclined your ear to hear, saying, 'Turn now everyone from his evil way and from the evil of your deeds, and dwell on the land which the LORD has given to you and your forefathers forever and ever; and do not go after other gods to serve them and to worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands, and I will do you no harm.'

Ezekiel 33:7-9
"Now as for you, son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel; so you will hear a message from My mouth and give them warning from Me. "When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand. "But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your life.

Mark 1:4
Verse Concepts
John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 3:3
Verse Concepts
And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins;

Luke 24:47
Verse Concepts
and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Ezekiel 18:30-32
"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Jeremiah 18:7-8
"At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.

Jeremiah 26:3
Verse Concepts
'Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.'


Jonah 3:10
Verse Concepts
When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

Luke 3:8-9
"Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. "Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Revelation 2:5
Verse Concepts
'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

Matthew 4:17
Verse Concepts
From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Mark 1:14-15
Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Matthew 3:2
Verse Concepts
"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

2 Chronicles 7:13-14
"If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Isaiah 55:7
Verse Concepts
Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

Deuteronomy 30:1-10
"So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.

Isaiah 44:22
Verse Concepts
"I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud And your sins like a heavy mist Return to Me, for I have redeemed you."

Acts 2:38-39
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Acts 3:19
Verse Concepts
"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 5:31
Verse Concepts
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Ezekiel 18:23
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Isaiah 65:2
"I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts,

Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Revelation 2:21
'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

Jeremiah 35:15
Verse Concepts
"Also I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, sending them again and again, saying: 'Turn now every man from his evil way and amend your deeds, and do not go after other gods to worship them Then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your forefathers; but you have not inclined your ear or listened to Me.

Jeremiah 5:3
Verse Concepts
O LORD, do not Your eyes look for truth? You have smitten them, But they did not weaken; You have consumed them, But they refused to take correction They have made their faces harder than rock; They have refused to repent.

Revelation 9:20-21
The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

Revelation 16:9-11
Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory. Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
 
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Scriptureplz

Guest
When we come to Christ to be saved, we come knowing in our hearts we are helpless creatures. Nothing we can do will make ourselves more presentable before God. Nothing we do before or after we trust Christ to be saved is worth anything toward salvation. Any other mindset from this is not belief, and therefore not salvation. Our "belief" is in Him alone.

When an unbeliever hears the word of God, and the Holy Spirit illuminates the truth to that persons heart that there is NOTHING that person can do to contribute to themselves being saved, they trust the work of Jesus, and receive His FREE GIFT, they are then saved.

If they had heard a message that they needed to "surrender their life" and "turn from their sins" and believe the work of Christ, the Spirit is not going to illuminate that because it's a lie! The person believing that garbage has not been saved!

People can continue their petty insults and debates, but the truth of scripture will ALWAYS be the same, and until it is read and understood by revelation of the Holy Spirit to be a free gift from God, people will continue to go to hell because of the false gospel they have heard and the doctrine they have believed. We are ONLY born of the Spirit when we have believed the truth!
 
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Here is a thread dedicated to "repenting". There are "fruits of repentance" but they are not the root of repentance - it is a by-product of the life of Christ in us - not something we do before we come to Christ. That is anti-the gospel of the grace of Christ.

Coming to believe in Christ is repentance and He is Lord when we first come to Him and when we go to be with Him in heaven and He will be Lord to those that reject Him too. His lordship is always in place.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...you-have-not-repented-false-condemnation.html
 
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Scriptureplz

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Best check your understanding of repentance people!
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Recognizing our sin is part of believing. We can't know we need to be saved until we recognize sin. But teaching people they are saved by turning from sin is a false gospel. Jesus died for us "while we were yet sinners" (Rom. 5:8). Even while we were "dead in sin" He "quickened us together" (Eph.2:5).

Have a good day!
We are saved by God's grace which calls us to repent and turn from our sins. There are numerous verses teaching that people turn from their sins and submit to God. That is true repentance.

Unbelief is a sin but it's not just unbelief that God sent Jesus as a savior who died for our sins but also unbelief that sin is destructive and that God can free us from its false lure, it's unbelief that we can live our lives with out seeking God's will and following Him.

When we turn from our sins and seek God because we respond to His call upon our hearts and lives. God sends someone to speak the gospel of Christ and we believe that Jesus died for us. Then we are given the Holy Spirit and sealed by Him.

It is all free, we did nothing to earn it. Even when we follow God's commandments and produce fruit in our lives we still have earned nothing. We merely did what was expected and therefore unprofitable servants.

Our works do not save us. Only Jesus work on the cross matters in terms of whether or not we are adopted into God's family.

Yet God still chastens His children.

Only person who can reassure someone they are a child of God is the Holy Spirit.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Best check your understanding of repentance people!
Yeah....you might want to do that, because repentance is more than believing Jesus died on the cross for your sins.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
When we come to Christ to be saved, we come knowing in our hearts we are helpless creatures. Nothing we can do will make ourselves more presentable before God. Nothing we do before or after we trust Christ to be saved is worth anything toward salvation. Any other mindset from this is not belief, and therefore not salvation. Our "belief" is in Him alone.

When an unbeliever hears the word of God, and the Holy Spirit illuminates the truth to that persons heart that there is NOTHING that person can do to contribute to themselves being saved, they trust the work of Jesus, and receive His FREE GIFT, they are then saved.

If they had heard a message that they needed to "surrender their life" and "turn from their sins" and believe the work of Christ, the Spirit is not going to illuminate that because it's a lie! The person believing that garbage has not been saved!

People can continue their petty insults and debates, but the truth of scripture will ALWAYS be the same, and until it is read and understood by revelation of the Holy Spirit to be a free gift from God, people will continue to go to hell because of the false gospel they have heard and the doctrine they have believed. We are ONLY born of the Spirit when we have believed the truth!
So....you tell people they are saved and then hit them with how they can now chose to dedicate their life to God and turn from their sins.....but as long as they have your "correct" view of the gospel, they are saved even if they chose not to follow the Holy Spirit or even listen to what God has to say to them?

Yet people who submit to God and believe the work of Christ on the cross are condemned and will never receive the holy spirit?
 
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So....you tell people they are saved and then hit them with how they can now chose to dedicate their life to God and turn from their sins.....but as long as they have your "correct" view of the gospel, they are saved even if they chose not to follow the Holy Spirit or even listen to what God has to say to them?

Yet people who submit to God and believe the work of Christ on the cross are condemned and will never receive the holy spirit?
You summarized it pretty well. It's faith in the new birth, and not faith in the living lord.