Can we or can we not lose our salvation?

Chester · Jul 1, 2016

Ah! ??? I don't understand? Where is the text that says anyone is predestined to heaven or to hell?

In an earlier post here I point out that when Christians are predestinated that this results in their going to heaven, but that is different than saying they are predestined to heaven.

I know - nit-picky difference -- but I am convinced that when we are talking doctrine we dare not add to what Scripture says.

TMS · Jul 1, 2016

Is salvation a single leap or a walk
A journey or a single step?
My bible tells me its a enduring walk,
It doesn't say i can't leave the narrow path

LaurenTM · Jul 1, 2016

valiant said:

I was kidding (kind of) but this is actually a really good answer

thank you...seriously!

TonyJay · Jul 1, 2016

TMS said:

You are confusing salvation with sanctification.
One is saved by accepting the finished work of Jesus Christ.
Sanctification (a process of becoming more Christ-like) is subsequent to, and consequent to, salvation but works itself out through our entire lives as Christians.
It is never complete this side of Heaven.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 1, 2016

Chester said:

Yeah it is a little nitpicky, and causes confusion I think.

Predestined to the results that get us to heaven, is the same as saying, We are predestined to heaven. Its not adding to the word, It is interpreting the word.

Jesus said in John 6, we would never die, Live forever, Never hunger or thirst, Have eternal life. and be risen by him.

And this all comes from eating his flesh. Which is what? Believing in his name.. (having faith in him)

eternally-gratefull · Jul 1, 2016

PeterJens said:

SMH

You will never get it peter. I have exposed you multiple times now. I have confronted you about your sin. (at least you acknowledge it is sin, or was that just being sarcastic? )

You continue to deny it..

That's what I meant when I said, he says he is a Christian, yet continues to do it. That is a shame.

Katy-follower · Jul 2, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

For anyone that missed it, the keyword there is eternal

There's no changing it's meaning. I really don't believe God would lie when He says we have eternal life.

It appears numerous times in scripture. Just some examples...

John 10:28-30: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

John 17:1-3: "Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent"

Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"

Katy-follower · Jul 2, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

To add to this... God works in mysterious ways, and often He surprises us with an unexpected outcome. So just pray for her everyday and wait and see!!!

So either (a) she went to church but was never saved to begin with (why she left) or (b) - she is actually "in Christ" but her love for this man took a priority in her life and she is now backsliding as a result.

If it turns out she is "in Christ" then she is being disobedient and the consequence of that will not be losing her salvation, but rather she will have a difficult life, no peace and many struggles (unequally yoked marriage for example). If she is "in Christ" then God will draw her back in the timing He chooses. Just wait and see. God often brings about good from these types of situations, so who knows what will happen. It could be that God plans to use her, to eventually reach out to muslims. Her husband may also get saved and it may be God's plan to use them both. Anything could happen, we just don't know what God has planned. So despite her disobedience God may be letting her go out into the world to experience life her own way, only to bring her back in His own time, according to His will.

So you need to pray for her and be patient. I see it like God lining up all the chess pieces in His own time, and just being patient on Him.

Katy-follower · Jul 2, 2016

It's a roman catholic teaching that's crept it's way into churches... this belief that salvation is not a one time event, that salvation must be maintained, that you can never be sure of your salvation, and you're threatened with an anathema if you claim you're eternally forgiven and have eternal life. Straight from Rome and sadly embraced by so many.

In the same way, the old catholic doctrine of indulgences is also being taught in the protestant churches, in the guise of the "prosperity gospel" - same principle, but different name. Catholic teachings, all from Rome and being taught in protestant churches.... daughters.

Works based salvation.

Dan58 · Jul 2, 2016

Salvation itself is not based on works, our reward is based on works. We are saved by grace through faith. But as long as we can lose our faith, freely choose to turn away, have a change of heart, etc, its possible to lose eternity. Just as there are some who didn't believe but now do, there are others who once believed but now don't. I've known good Christians who lost their faith, even switched religions, that was the point of "The Parable of the Sower" in Matthew 13. Some might say that they never really believed in the first place, but I think that sentiment under-estimates the adversary, who sows doubt and can deceive anyone. "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 42:22).

DP · Jul 2, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

I see nothing mysterious about that, the Jews at that time weren't aware that The Gospel would also go to the Gentiles. God showed Peter different, and Peter testified to his Jewish brethren about it in Jerusalem (Acts 11).

But in reality, it was first a written prophecy in the OT prophets... the Jews simply didn't yet understand it until God revealed it to Peter, Thomas, and Paul...

Isa 11:10
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
KJV

Isa 42:6
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
KJV

Isa 49:6
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
KJV

Isa 54:2-3
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
KJV

Isa 66:19
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
KJV

In Acts 13 when certain ones of the Jews turned against Paul and Barnabas, those Jews refused The Gospel and made Paul and Barnabas leave...

Acts 13:44-51
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.
KJV

That part is bold red was Paul quoting from the OT prophets about The Gospel going to the Gentiles. I think it unique that Peter and Thomas were the first in preaching The Gospel to Gentiles when Paul was still deceived and following the Pharisees.

PeterJens · Jul 2, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

Dear reader, this believer has a problem. He wishes to say sin has been done against him.
It sound like he feels he has been described as 5ft tall when he is really 5ft 1in.

In truth he scrabbles around to find anything to accuse people of things, and wants to dictate what
can be said or not said. The word "stop" is often used. And the content, normally an interpretation
of doctrine or faith. Now I am happy if he describes me as a pharisee, unsaved, in need of
repentance, a legalist, someone he wants to expose and bring down. He sincerely seems to
believe all this.

In his mind no one can ever by righteous in Christ, walking blamelessly before the Lord.
He will say I am lying, and miss-representing him, but if you say can you walk righteously, he will
say are you perfect, without fault. And the answer is yes until the point you stumble, and get
right again with God. Do you loose your salvation? No if you stay in faith.

When we talk about sin, he confesses he sins all the time. But his definition of sin is
hyper-legalistic. Elijah sinned because he feared for his life when running from Jezebel.

Now for someone who consistently follows his theology yet hates it being described is a strange
believer. I hold to what I believe and am fine people refining ideas I follow.

But for EG this is a sin. Not sure how. He refuses to describe how these conclusions are wrong.
Maybe drawing conclusions or theology itself is "evil". But then nothing surprises me anymore.

Now I understand his call to repentance. In his world it is trampling on the cross to believe anything
in us has value and that before the Lord he could count us acceptable, even washed in the blood.
But that both contradicts scripture and the cross. If we are not literally spotless on the day of
judgement, then what was the point? Sin is real and needs defining, in the heart, in our lives, in our
relationships in a meaningful way. But more clearly love and how we serve one another, uplift and
encourage, bring glory to His name, that is truly our hearts desire.

He will protest I am sinning in writing this, but then he is trapped in hyper-legalism so what do you
expect. Saying we follow the same Lord is probably a sin...

PeterJens · Jul 2, 2016

Hyper-grace.

The hyper grace camp hate us, with a real sense of hurt and anger. Their legalistic past from which
they are now free feels like the lie that kept them from see Jesus forgives no matter how you behave.

Now the emotional contradiction is if Jesus sets them free from sin, or the effects to only look to Him,
though one abides in sin, it is the ultimate compromise. To support this idea sin has to be made
impossible to overcome, so it becomes anything to do with the self. This is then described as the
flesh.

So in this faith sin is the abiding reality of life, and has become hyper-legalistic, where fear is sinful,
and probably an unknown number of other deeds. In this world anything done outside faith is sin.
This means morality is only defined within the believers realm.

I have seen this before, in Islam. The most brutal acts are justified because they are against the
unbeliever, who has no rights, being an enemy of God, and so worthy of judgement.

God does not work like this. He uplifts the righteous, those who do good, no matter there views
on faith. Gods proposition is only those who truly know Him and agree with Him will live righteously.

This is why I oppose any faith position which justifies condemnation of righteousness in anyone.

Now they probably regard believing like this is also sin. But then that is not surprising because this is
my criticism of this morality and how it corrupts the people who follow it.

This is also why the Spanish inquisition was so evil, and any group who believe idiology is of greater
value than righteousness. The Kingdom of heaven is founded on our communion with God and our walk
in righteousness. To say we cannot walk righteously is to deny the power of the cross and redemption.

TonyJay · Jul 2, 2016

Word salad at its best....

PeterJens · Jul 2, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

EG if you bother to read my posts above, which I doubt, I have no idea about what you are calling sin.
I do not accept your definitions or believe in your faith or salvation.

You follow a mystic version of christianity. In the broadest sense it is still christian but its morality is
different. So please accept my apology. Using normal descriptive language is sin to you.
Describing what you believe and how it works emotionally is sin to you.
Not accepting you as a great spiritual teacher is sin to you.

For me to turn the other cheek and accept in your eyes am not saved is sin to you.

You were right the issue is not OSAS. You follow a different morality and faith, but similar words.
Bens description how a believer can sin and be instantly forgiven while sinning describes how lost
your group is. It is pure projection, inventing an idea which scripture condemns. Sin is sin, not part
of the Kingdom of heaven. But ofcourse you know the Lord and I have sinned against you.

I think you are going to have to live in your hyper-legalism and realise it is nothing from my side,
I mean you no harm, I am just defining and understanding the heresy you follow.

This again will be a grevious insult and slander, but then I have come to expect nothing more.

PeterJens · Jul 2, 2016

TonyJay said:

Sorry, but I am just trying to talk through where I have got to in this interaction.
Am I being unfair?

TonyJay · Jul 2, 2016

A blunderbuss went off, twigs and leaves flying everywhere, a couple of bird's nests on the ground, even a bird or two fluttering around madly with broken wings and finally a huge cloud of smoke.
Everyone looks around - what were you shooting at?
No-one knows - least of all Peter Jens.

PeterJens · Jul 2, 2016

TonyJay said:

Ok you are in agreement with EG. I deduce this from ridicule.
The point about religious positions is they become part of who we are, and those who disagree with
us will always make their points, but they will appear meaningless, or else we will change our position.

The value of this is partly to know who is friend and who is foe.
In a real sense, this is the tension of life, as long as we can respect where we stand, everything is fine.

PeterJens · Jul 2, 2016

Independence of observation

If someone who comes from a particular belief or world view camp pours scorn and ridicule on another
as if they are independant, then that is miss-leading.

It is more honest to actually argue or discuss the theology. Ofcourse we both believe we are right.
Where it gets bad is when people use the word slander, lying and sin in personal interactions or even
malice. Someone even tried to say holding a certain position was equivalent to witch craft.

I find though just discussing how we approach life is a lot more helpful, and resolving sin in our lives.
Jesus was primarily interested in people being pure on the inside as well as the outside, speaking from
the heart, not appearing to be something they are not, and walking in humility.

Now because I am the "enemy" turning anything I say into a antagonistic position is the name of the
game. But then though they declare this is not the case, this is what they do all the time, so beware,
things are not what they appear.

PeterJens · Jul 2, 2016

Theological summaries

Hyper Grace
Sin => Hell
Sin => Forgiveness (the cross) (past, present, future) faith in Christ => Heaven
Sin => Heaven

Traditional
Sin => Hell
Sin => Forgiveness (the cross) (past, present) faith in Christ => Heaven
Sin => Obedience (repentance, confession, forgiveness) faith => Communion => Heaven
Blameless Obedience => Communion => Heaven
Sin => faithlessness => Hell

The two models appear similar. A sinful world is doomed to hell.
Through faith in the cross we gain forgiveness of sins.
Hyper grace says this one off act of faith in Christ forgives all future sins.
There is no separation between you and God from now on, sin is irrelevant.

Traditional view
Through faith in the cross we gain forgiveness of sins.
We are called to obedience and following. If sin occurs we have a means to
get forgiveness, through repentance, confession and faith in Christ.
We expect in the end to walk blamelessly in obedience to the Lord.
If sin leads to loss of faith we are lost.

Hyper grace care about sin, but are never free from it.
I do not think the issues are more complex than this.
I do not mean to insult or slander anyone, but if you say you hold to a different position
you need to actually state it, and not just attack me.

Can we or can we not lose our salvation?

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