Can we or can we not lose our salvation?

[PeterJens]

Can't take any kind of chastening or correction, they are right at all cost.

This is an interesting position from someone who refuses to see an argument from another perspective.
People who believe they are right, use words like chastening or correction.

It truth there is only a concept and its foundations. There is a basis of authority and assumptions that
support such a concept. There is nothing else, this defines everything in life and our experience.

So if you wish to discuss a point you need to address these points. When people show no desire to
address valid points or interpretations and claim this is pure bias, and scream this is the spiritual
enemy, there you have someone missing the point 100%.

Like a request to declare what they believe. I have listed my beliefs openly but EG is reluctant to
declare His faith. Is he ashamed of Christ His Lord and what he stands for? Or maybe his friends will
suddenly find he is not a friend at all, but just another believer along for the ride.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again here is a person who has not really looked at the subject. God limits himself to his nature.
So there are things he is unable to do.

And our definition of perfect is not Gods. For instance people think God knows everything.
But infinity is not knowable, because it never ends.

Satan thought he had found a flaw in Gods approach and led a rebellion. How we see things is always
limited by our understanding and perceptions. But man always want to define, box, limit, qualify
everything, and not accept everything is only a perception, we will never know the real boundaries because
we are not God.

Can God make an evil man good. No. Because He chose to give them free will, to make choice precious,
a fruit of love, an outflow of the heart. It has to be protected and allowed to be real.
Could God force things? I do not know, because only he fully understands the limitations, but it appears not.
Inevitably there are two kingdoms, the one of dominance and desire against love and hope.

Here is a man who says god is limited. I do not thing anything else needs to be said

 

[valiant]

And our definition of perfect is not Gods. For instance people think God knows everything.
But infinity is not knowable, because it never ends.

Are you suggesting that there is an infinity unknown to God?

Satan thought he had found a flaw in Gods approach and led a rebellion. How we see things is always
limited by our understanding and perceptions. But man always want to define, box, limit, qualify
everything, and not accept everything is only a perception, we will never know the real boundaries because
we are not God.

true

Can God make an evil man good.

every man whom He has saved is an evil man. He counts as righteous the ungodly (Rom 4.5; 5.6-8),

No. Because He chose to give them free will

free will is an unscriptural concept. men have limited choice within their understanding

.
,

to make choice precious,

where does God say that?

a fruit of love, an outflow of the heart. It has to be protected and allowed to be real.

lol, so peter jens sys,

Could God force things?

He does not need to. He can make man want what He offers.

I do not know, because only he fully understands the limitations, but it appears not.

If you mean does God ensure that men believe He has said so often in scripture,

Inevitably there are two kingdoms, the one of dominance and desire against love and hope.

nonsense, God's Kingdom is of love and hope. But it is through His sovereignty. He brings about His will. If you call that dominance so be it.,

 

[Grace777x70]

Love wins us to Him. This is how He works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

 

[PeterJens]

Here is a man who says god is limited. I do not thing anything else needs to be said

Now for those who study Pantheism or Hinduism, you have a moral dilemma if you say God is not limited.
You need a God of evil, of rage, of war, of bloodshed, violence, all the worst aspects of society and existance and a God of love being kind etc. This is where all the Gods come from with their different mixed morality tales.

Now for people brought up of the concept of God alone being Holy this idea seems very odd.

But that is the point, one is what happens when people invent gods after their own ideas and God who truly declares His presence.

I would suggest this ignorance of belief and concepts is obvious from EG which is why these discussions become so narrow.

It is also why the idea spiritual authority is taught and held by people like this is a joke.
But then this is probably beyond them to understand this point which summarises it all. Dumb.

 

[Trail-of-Truth]

[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Rom 8:29[/TD]
[TD]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to beconformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

Rom 8:30[/TD]
[TD]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Yes, God foreknew who would choose to obey Him. Yes, He predestined those that He foreknew. No His foreknowledge does not take away our free will. Even I can know the future in small degree. Example: If I stand in front of train tracks, and see a train quickly approaching, just a couple feet before it passes me, I foreknow that it will pass me even before it does pass me. Did my foreknowledge take away the free will of the one driving the train? Of course not.

On earth, the son of a king won the DNA lottery. Because by chance he was born of a king and is therefore also royalty. But with God the King we can choose to be born again and be His children. Those who do choose so, are destined to live in the palace. No one can say it is not fair, why did God choose them over me, God does not practice favoritism (Colossians 4). We all have an equal opportunity to obey Him and become royalty. Those who obey He will adopt. Those He adopts are destined for heaven, if they remain faithful until death.

 

[valiant]

Now for those who study Pantheism or Hinduism, you have a moral dilemma if you say God is not limited.
You need a God of evil, of rage, of war, of bloodshed, violence, all the worst aspects of society and existance and a God of love being kind etc. This is where all the Gods come from with their different mixed morality tales.

only if you believe in pantheism and Hinduism. With the God of the Bible all is explained by man's rebellion. God has allowed the consequence of rebellion to be played out.

Now for people brought up of the concept of God alone being Holy this idea seems very odd.

I,m not sure why???

But that is the point, one is what happens when people invent gods after their own ideas and God who truly declares His presence.

you'll have to explain it better,

 

[PeterJens]

nonsense, God's Kingdom is of love and hope. But it is through His sovereignty. He brings about His will. If you call that dominance so be it.,

The kingdom of this world is about forcing things through no matter what, the most powerful gets their
way. The driving force is what the desire is of the power behind the dominance, without regard of the
consequences. So lawlessness is seen as the only way to rule, because what you desire is the only
morality.

Now Gods sovereignty is submitted to His justice, love and truth. It is why we are still alive and why he
allows satan to roam, as well as evil in the world. This is to allow love and truth to have a chance and
give those of the Kingdom the opportunity to walk in the ways of God.

So is this nonsense. Or are you too quick to judge. It is the eternal tension against which satan fights
but has lost.

 

[valiant]

The kingdom of this world is about forcing things through no matter what, the most powerful gets their
way. The driving force is what the desire is of the power behind the dominance, without regard of the
consequences. So lawlessness is seen as the only way to rule, because what you desire is the only
morality.

Now Gods sovereignty is submitted to His justice, love and truth. It is why we are still alive and why he
allows satan to roam, as well as evil in the world. This is to allow love and truth to have a chance and
give those of the Kingdom the opportunity to walk in the ways of God.

So is this nonsense. Or are you too quick to judge. It is the eternal tension against which satan fights
but has lost.

you don't explain yourself very well do you?

 

[PeterJens]

only if you believe in pantheism and Hinduism. With the God of the Bible all is explained by man's rebellion. God has allowed the consequence of rebellion to be played out.
I,m not sure why???
you'll have to explain it better,

You have accepted God limits his justice, so that the consequence of the rebellion is played out.
So God limits what is possible.

EG was saying God does not limit himself.

Holiness is a purity and essence which does not allow sin or darkness to be present.
This is a law or boundary of existance.

This is quite simple. As soon as you define yourself as one thing you are not longer the other.

In Islam there was a debate on this subject. The idea was developed that cause and effect limited
Gods will. So therefore each moment was willed into existance without connection to the previous
moment so that God could choose to create the illusion of cause and effect and not be limited by
it. Again this whole philosophy is to try and not limit God by any concept.

So this idea of limitation and lack of it is a very well explored idea. God declares himself as defined
or limited by His own Holiness. Now this could well be only our perception of limitations, and is actually
not so, but in biblical theological terms, a criticism of the bible is God is a limited picture, so in some
views heretical or blasphemy ie how can man define God has limits. Because He declares them.

 

[PeterJens]

you don't explain yourself very well do you?

These are not easy concepts to get across if you are not used to conceptual thinking as well
as I am not a teacher in this area, but aware of the basic issues. People spend a lifetime of
study exploring such concepts.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Doesn't the word predestine derive from the Latin mistranslation of the Greek word προορίζω (proorizo), which means to designate before? In other words, to note beforehand rather than to determine beforehand.

No it means to determine beforehand to pre-ordain

προορίζω proorizō pro-or-id'-zo From
G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

I was thinking of the wrong word. The one I was thinking of is in Acts 13:48.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48​

Ordained
G5021 τάσσω tasso (tas'-so) v.
1. to arrange in an orderly manner

Jerome translated this word in the Vulgate as prae-ordinati (pre-ordained). Since Augustine couldn't read Greek very well, he relied on Jerome's Latin translation which contained this error, and developed his theology of predestination from it. He was certainly disposed towards that view, having been a gnostic for nearly a decade before becoming a Christian. The gnostics believed that the elect (pneumatikos, spiritual men) were preordained to salvation, and the rest of mankind (somatikos, earthly men) were preordained to damnation.

 

[DP]

okie dokie....you are free to believe whatever you want....

Have you read Acts 10 and 13 yet which actually has a word for word account of the real gospel being preached by Peter and Paul?....it's an eye opener and it will conflict with some people's religious beliefs they were brought up with...it did me....just sayin'

You mean about Cornelius the Gentile, with God sending Peter to preach The Gospel to them? God through His OT prophets foretold about His Salvation also would go to the Gentiles ya know. Study Isaiah.

As for your suggestion to read Acts 13, I'm not sure who you are pointing at, because I am not Jewish. I'm a Protestant Christian. The reason I say this is because Acts 13 is primarily about Paul's rebuke of a sorcerer and preaching to the Jews who were against him.

This is not a happy-go-lucky type of mentality our Lord Jesus expressed with the following...

Matt 10:34-39
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for My sake shall find it.
KJV

He didn't promise we'd have a big fine house and milliions of dollars in the bank like a Joel Osteen, etc. He said to follow Him and take up our cross, which means 'hardship' and suffering for His sake. That's what staying true to all of His Word brings, i.e., hardship and suffering from others because they don't like it. They only want smooth things preached to their ears, just like the rebellious of Israel did (Isaiah 30:10).

 

[Grace777x70]

You mean about Cornelius the Gentile, with God sending Peter to preach The Gospel to them? God through His OT prophets foretold about His Salvation also would go to the Gentiles ya know. Study Isaiah.

As for your suggestion to read Acts 13, I'm not sure who you are pointing at, because I am not Jewish. I'm a Protestant Christian. The reason I say this is because Acts 13 is primarily about Paul's rebuke of a sorcerer and preaching to the Jews who were against him.

(snip)

Ok...I'll help you out.

Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius' household Act 10:34-48. Peter told how Jesus died and rose again and then said this to those Gentiles there. ( no hell fire and brimstone preaching done )

Acts 10:43-44 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
This is backed up by Paul in Eph. 1:13. Listen to the gospel, believe, then you are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

( notice it's the message of truth...selah )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Now Paul in Acts 13:16-41 ( Paul is longer winded here as he is talking to the Jewish people that know some scripture )

Same thing here as Paul talks about the death and resurrection of Jesus and then says this which is the same thing as Peter said. ( Peter didn't have to mention the Law to the Gentiles as they don't know it - it was for the Jews. )

Acts 13:38-39 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

[SUP]39 [/SUP] and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

So, the bottom line is that we only have these 2 word for word accounts of the true gospel being preached. No hell fire and brimstone preaching done in any of these accounts.


Isn't the word of God complete? - the one account was talking to Gentiles...the other one was talking to Jews. The gospel is for the Jew and the Gentile.

It started in the 18th and 19th century. It's a fairly modern construct of man with well intentions as there is a lake of fire for those that reject Jesus' salvation. But it is not in the gospel message if one actually believed in the word for word accounts of the gospel being preached in Acts.

 

[Mec99]

You still do not understand HeRoseFromTheDead. You can lose a watch given to you as a gift.

Salvation is from God by His Grace. You cannot lose the Grace of God. How can you lose God's Grace? Its from God. But you can refuse to accept the gift of Salvation from God.

Let us reason He RoseFromTheDead. The Holy Spirit clearly say we receive Salvation by the Grace of God.

Ephesians 2:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith

Now it's by Grace, not by our grace, not by our Faith, not by our Works. But by the Grace of God ONLY we receive Salvation.

Its not that we can lose a gift from God, instead it's because we never accepted the Gift in the first place is why people like you teach we can lose our Salvation.

Have you ever considered accepting Salvation from God? Why have you not received Salvation yet? What is hindering you from accepting Salvation?

I know the reason why you have not accepted Salvation, and that reason is because you are listening to deceiving Spirits.

This is nothing new today. Just look at all the Catholics in the Catholic Church. They see no problem with petitioning Mary for her to help them with a problem. This is listening to deceiving Spirits. The same goes for you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is an interesting position from someone who refuses to see an argument from another perspective..

I am friends with many people who have different perspectives. They do not bother me..

What I refuse to see is a man who bears false witness against another person. then denies it when he is confronted. And calls himself a man of God.

Something is wrong with that.

 

[PeterJens]

I am friends with many people who have different perspectives. They do not bother me..

What I refuse to see is a man who bears false witness against another person. then denies it when he is confronted. And calls himself a man of God.

Something is wrong with that.

I am sorry you feel someone is bearing false witness against you.
Please can you tell me which false witness this is that you are referring to because obviously it is a serious issue you feel badly about. Have you confronted them about their sin?

Or is this something you do not believe in confronting people about, judge not etc. which you seem so keen on?

 

[FlSnookman7]

There’s a big difference between knowing what something says and knowing what it means. Millions of Christians know what the Bible says. But many do not know what it means because that can only be revealed by the Spirit.
Man does not need the enlightening ministry of the Holy Spirit to understand the law; the law was given specifically for the natural man. We need the Holy Spirit to open our minds to the things having to do with the unfathomable riches of His love and grace, those things that “God has freely given us.”
Just as the same sun that melts wax hardens clay, the same message of God’s grace that softens the heart of the humble hardens the proud. The proud cannot receive grace because the proud will not receive grace.
~Bob George, Classic Christianity

 

[Chester]

[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Rom 8:29[/TD]
[TD]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to beconformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

Rom 8:30[/TD]
[TD]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

??? You quote Scripture and make no comment ???

To me it is quite clear: Verse 28 gives the context (those who love God)
Verse 29 says that these that he knew beforehand he also predestined (marked out the boundaries ahead of time) to be like His Son. Verse 30 keeps on going and shows that these predestined then will also be called, then justified, and then glorified. But predestination is a predestination to what not to where. Sure, it will end in where (heaven - being glorified), but they are predestined to the image of his Son, they are not predestined to heaven. Just because predestination results in believers going to heaven does not mean God predestined them to go there. The text does not say that. You can use human reasoning and logic to try to prove that God had to know this beforehand, but this is not the Biblical doctrine of predestination.

 

[Chester]

God is more concerned about WHAT we become, and He certainly predestinates us to that (Rom 8.29; Eph 1.4; etc_

Yes, indeed! You got it! I agree.