Why is the bible so open to interpretation?

[Grace777x70]

I will have to look into why you all reject the sermon on the mount and then
present why this fails in simple theology.

Ofcourse you believe it is a valid rejection, but that is not because of a view
of morality but hyper-legalism and the accusation it was only given to condemn
the self righteous rather than show the right way of living.

It is like a crowd who are looking for any excuse to be let off the hook to
behave how they like or at least feel ok about their guilt.

Now I know this is your position and emotional logic,

Peter please take the time to listen to this about the sermon on the mount as it talks about a lot of the things we say. There are great things in the sermon on the mount as it describes what the life in Christ looks like and it also reveals our complete need for a Savior too.

Please watch this video so that you can see what is really being said " in context" because there is so much in the Lord's teaching that day on the side of the hill. Thank you.

[video=youtube;Ujyb683RNtM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujyb683RNtM[/video]

 

[LaurenTM]

Thanks, that would be great!

hey Dan

I'm thinking I'll start a separate thread on it so as not to break up the flow of this thread

hope to see you there...I'll pm you when it's open...will be abit cause it's really not a simple Psalm
thanks

 

[PeterJens]

HG version of criticism of the sermon on the mount

(Mt. 5:1ff) How do we interpret the Sermon on the Mount? | Evidence Unseen

The above goes through the points as I have seen surface from hyper grace groups.

The problem is the sermon on the mount is an enormous subject, and the accusation is
obeying it is impossible. But this is what Jesus is calling us to. So how do you make the
impossible possible.

1. Understand what Jesus is meaning
2. Take seriously you have to become a new creation, literally
3. Being an nice person is not good enough
4. Isolate words that are most open to interpretation, and try and understand why
Matthew chose them.
5. Compare Matthew to Lukes version of the same teaching. Is there a nuiance that
is not otherwise obvious.

Be perfect as your Father is perfect. The problem with the word perfect is it is an
adjective to a noun. You have to be perfect about something. In some situations
perfection is without defect or fault in design, looks, skill, attitude, performance.
Normally this means within the constraints of being human and limited. You cannot
be perfect in ominpresence, or omnipotence or knowledge of everything.

Now if you read the passage it is being perfect in loving ones enemies and bringing
a blessing on them. Now that is achievable.

Now hyper grace are saying this is bringing Gods standard down. But in reality it is
just making sense of the language being used. If you took this phrase in isolation,
there is no salvation or acceptability even in Christ, because we cannot be like God
and non-human.

But hyper grace are being two faced. There argument is to take things to an extreme
to claim all Jesus is saying is you are total failures so give up and accept Christ, he will
do it all.

If this was Jesus's intention he would not have described all the other instructions, on
prayer, on fasting, on giving, on attitudes, on judgementalism, on love, on respect to
teachers, on good works, on blessings, on being a light etc. It is why to write it all off,
because one statement can be taken to an extreme is to miss the thrust of what Matthew
is bringing, this is the christian walk.

And God has given it like this so those who want excuses can do it again. If you want
to truly follow Jesus the door is always open. Do you have a heart of love who wants
to be transformed?

Too many simply answer no, they do not know what I am talking about. But that truly
sums it all up.

Imagine life is a filter, with as many elimination stages to distract those people who are
not interested in really finding God, but are just along for the ride. It is a real race, with
a real prize. Are you worthy or just a fake participant.

 

[PeterJens]

The truth of HG.

Law in all of its stringency and law in all of its impossibility.

This is saying sin does not matter. If law is a measure of righteousness, then in reality
it is still the standard.

Now Jesus said the law stands until all is fulfilled.
Jesus dying on the cross is this fulfillment.

The law does not stand as the benchmark anymore because the temple has become
irrelevant. The sacrifices ceased as a way of entry into the holy of holies because
Christ is now the entry.

Inner purity is the way of following Jesus. Jesus's criticism of the pharisees is they have
no heart purity. The outward show is just part, the inward show needs to be complete
as well.

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20

Andrew Farley like all HG preachers is saying ignore all of the sermon on the mount, it was just an exercise in condemnation.

You can get this because he spends more time telling how the words are meaningless, because it is just to disappoint the listeners. This is the most destructive rebellious approach you could ever take. It is sowing poison into your heart while talking Jesus's words.

Two major areas people struggle with in the sermon on the mount

1. Love your enemy - Bless those who hate you, just like your perfect Father does.
2. Sexual lust. If you spend your time looking on women lustfully, or fantasing about them,
you are lost. If you cannot control this, gouge out your eye, cut off your hand.
3. Anger - Do not be angry with your brother, your fellow believer.

It seems like people are saying these sins are too hard to conquer.

Now ofcourse cleansing your heart is no minor issue, it is giving up your life.

And sexual gratification is so rampant in our culture now, adultery and fornication are
like second nature. Pornography is everywhere so is fantasy, though people know the
destructive nature of it, still it rips through peoples lives.

But who is your Lord, who do you really bow the knee to?

 

[Grace777x70]

Andrew Farley like all HG preachers is saying ignore all of the sermon on the mount, it was just an exercise in condemnation.

You can get this because he spends more time telling how the words are meaningless, because it is just to disappoint the listeners. This is the most destructive rebellious approach you could ever take. It is sowing poison into your heart while talking Jesus's words.

?

Complete nonsense! He never said to ignore all the sermon on the mount and that it is just an exercise in condemnation. This is a "construct" of your mind. Anyone that listens to the video will not come up with this deduction.

Where in the world you come up with these strange deductions in your mind is a complete mystery to me.

But you are free to think and believe whatever you want and I won't call you a heretic or satanic or that you love to sin. I'll leave you alone and pray for you and ask the Lord to bless you as I do whenever I think about you.

I ask that you do the same for those that may have different beliefs then you. Pray for us Peter!

 

[PeterJens]

Complete nonsense! He never said to ignore all the sermon on the mount and that it is just an exercise in condemnation. This is a "construct" of your mind. Anyone that listens to the video will not come up with this deduction.

Where in the world you come up with these strange deductions in your mind is a complete mystery to me.

But you are free to think and believe whatever you want and I won't call you a heretic or satanic or that you love to sin. I'll leave you alone and pray for you and ask the Lord to bless you as I do whenever I think about you.

I ask that you do the same for those that may have different beliefs then you. Pray for us Peter!

The reality is Andrew Farley uses these words "The impossibility of the law"

Now maybe because you want to believe this doctrine so badly you did not hear the words.
Lying about this reality is just foolishness. People can listen to the video for themselves.

Now everyone who takes Jesus seriously and the sermon on the mount says the things I
am saying.

Andrew confesses in another video either he would go nuts because his behaviour was in
conflict with the word of God or he found grace abounding resolved the issue ie compromise.

Deep in all of us is this place. Either we break and call to God or we change our theology.
You guys have called Jesus a liar.

"A man who puts these words into practice is like a man who built their house upon a rock..."

The real problem is about who we are inside, repression or acceptance, cleansing or feeding the
carnal desires.

Which sins pushed you into hyper-grace Grace7?

What has really been the issue is about one word, love, and how it works out in people.
All humans are born into love.

Our greatest ethic is to find a soul mate who loves us, and we can love them.
The symbol of the heart of man, is love.

It is no mistake or error that is who we are. But one mistake, one error or divergence,
then as my daughter quickly says "I hate people, they are so evil."

We so quickly go from love to hatred, anger, lust, desire and death. This is the problem
of not knowing Christ, deep down inside us, in the core of who we are.

 

[PeterJens]

Grace7 - I do not know how to pray for you. I do not know you, you claim to know Christ
yet speak against his most fundamental concepts.

What I point out the obvious flaws in the argument, you just say I am deluded and making
it up.

If I talk about sin, your group denies conviction of sin is from God.
If I talk about walking in purity and righteousness, it is mockery.

When I quote word for word of Andrew it is my invention.

People doing good is impossible, because good only exists in people of faith.

Your group claim mystical, face to face communication with the prophets, going to
the 3rd heaven. People speak with the dead, and claim they know the truth.

Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.
Rev 3:19

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Jude 1:4

These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
Jude 1:19

 

[JaumeJ]

My understanding of the sermon of Christ on the mount is a great break from what had been being taught by certain Pharisees, perhaps most.

Jesus begins to teach us how the commandments and the law should be approached in order to truly understand the wisdom in the law.

The law says an eye for an eye, while our blessed Lord who desires mercy and not sacrifice, and Who came to forgive and not to condemn teaches in plain words to turn the other cheek.

He teaches us to love our enemies, and to pray for those who spitefully abuse and use us.

Later He gives the three major points to always consider when reading and studying God's laws which are faith(i Jesus I believe), mercy and justice.

It becomes crystal clear how all are to approach the law as we live in grace, always considering these three important and forgotten by the hypocrites points.

Because the law is not inscribed on our inward parts on the tablets of our hearts, using the law lawfully, that is full of mercy, justice and faith, we will always show and extend mercy when need be automatically because our new nature under grace will know by the Holy Spirit.

Look through the gospels of Matthew, Mark, luke and Joh, and see how Jesus Christ understood and practiced the Law, after all He gave the law first and then grace.
Another good example of Christ's going against the dictates of the law is the woman caught in the act of adultery, with many witnesses. Our Lord argued her case and won mercy for her because of His teaching and understand of all.......

The laws are not a buren to any who love God, thought we have not mastered them, we have a Savior Who did it for us......

Beware of condemning the law to obsolescence, for you are condemning the wisdom of God and His Salvation, both of which are heralded within it.

 

[DP]

Peter please take the time to listen to this about the sermon on the mount as it talks about a lot of the things we say. There are great things in the sermon on the mount as it describes what the life in Christ looks like and it also reveals our complete need for a Savior too.

Please watch this video so that you can see what is really being said " in context" because there is so much in the Lord's teaching that day on the side of the hill. Thank you.

[video=youtube;Ujyb683RNtM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujyb683RNtM[/video]

Sorry man, I believe the guy is just totally... off base in those Matthew Scriptures, even to the extreme.

Those Scriptures were not just for Jews of that period.

Jesus was giving the spirit of many of God's laws to show the difference between the Jews who thought to follow the law by rote, vs. the heart in wanting to do what is righteous in God's eyes, which of course will always align with His laws. Apostle Paul even parlays this in Galatians 5 when he showed the difference between walking by the flesh vs. walking by The Spirit, and when he said about the good works there is no law against.

What I see with this video and the doctrines it is following is a denial that we can still have future sin after having believed and been baptized in Christ Jesus. That idea is part of a 'movement' from men, and is not Scriptural. And for that reason they treat The Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6 as if it were taboo, even to the point of telling lies about that Scripture with saying one will condemn themselves by praying it!!! That is is a huge sign of devils at work in that man and in that movement.

 

[Grace777x70]

Sorry man, I believe the guy is just totally... off base in those Matthew Scriptures, even to the extreme.

Those Scriptures were not just for Jews of that period.

Jesus was giving the spirit of many of God's laws to show the difference between the Jews who thought to follow the law by rote, vs. the heart in wanting to do what is righteous in God's eyes, which of course will always align with His laws. Apostle Paul even parlays this in Galatians 5 when he showed the difference between walking by the flesh vs. walking by The Spirit, and when he said about the good works there is no law against.

What I see with this video and the doctrines it is following is a denial that we can still have future sin after having believed and been baptized in Christ Jesus. That idea is part of a 'movement' from men, and is not Scriptural. And for that reason they treat The Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6 as if it were taboo, even to the point of telling lies about that Scripture with saying one will condemn themselves by praying it!!! That is is a huge sign of devils at work in that man and in that movement.

nonsense..it's obvious you are not understanding what is really being said.....Jesus elevated the Law to show that no one can really do it and obtain righteousness and the way of living changed after the cross to rely on Christ alone for justification and salvation.

There was a change of the covenants from the Old to the New which started after Jesus shed His blood and rose again from the dead. Jesus was born under the law to those who were also under the law so that he could redeem them.

All scripture is to be viewed through the lens of the finished work of Christ, if not then we end up mixing up the covenants and we are teaching mixture which is the real leaven.

And no one treats the Lord's prayer as if it is taboo..that's complete nonsense again - we say that there is much to glean from it but certain elements of it have been fulfilled already as it was a transitional prayer between Jesus' time and when He rose from the grace.

But everyone is free to believe what they want but to say that people that believe in interpreting scripture through the finished work of Christ and in which covenant we are in at the time being spoken - and that it is a sign of devils at work is just spiritual ignorance gone to seed. In reality it's people's religious traditions that are being offended and they pass it off as being devilish. It's complete nonsense.

 

[DP]

nonsense..it's obvious you are not understanding what is really being said.....Jesus elevated the Law to show that no one can really do it and obtain righteousness and the way of living changed after the cross to rely on Christ alone for justification and salvation.

There was a change of the covenants from the Old to the New which started after Jesus shed His blood and rose again from the dead. Jesus was born under the law to those who were also under the law so that he could redeem them.

All scripture is to be viewed through the lens of the finished work of Christ, if not then we end up mixing up the covenants and we are teaching mixture which is the real leaven.

And no one treats the Lord's prayer as if it is taboo..that's complete nonsense again - we say that there is much to glean from it but certain elements of it have been fulfilled already as it was a transitional prayer between Jesus' time and when He rose from the grace.

But everyone is free to believe what they want but to say that people that believe in interpreting scripture through the finished work of Christ and in which covenant we are in at the time being spoken - and that it is a sign of devils at work is just spiritual ignorance gone to seed. In reality it's people's religious traditions that are being offended and they pass it off as being devilish. It's complete nonsense.

The false doctrines that guy is preaching is going to lead you off the cliff. Those are charlatans going directly against God's Word. One can easily and simply go to Paul's Epistles and hear Paul preaching those same concepts that Jesus preached there.

The doctrines of those men happened as an offshoot of 1830's Dispensationalism, and then Bullinger's Hyper-Dispensationalism which created the doctrine that ONLY Paul's Epistles are relevant to Christ's Church, and that is where today's various Grace Movements originated. That is why that guy would say those Matthew Scriptures were only for Jews, and not Christ's Church, just as they also do with other chapters in the Four Gospels, and with the Book of Hebrews, Peter's and John's Epistles, and with some of them even the Book of Revelation given through John!

Those cats might as well just tear out everything from their Bible except Paul's Epistles and play church with that, because that's the origin of those kind of movements, they are from men, and not from God.

 

[PeterJens]

Andrew Farley - Is the gospel if you have not forgiven others you will not be forgiven?

He is arguing it is ok to hold unforgiveness in your heart, God will forgive you anyway.

Jesus does not say that. The parables do not say that. The apostles do not say that.

Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Col 3:13

We get forgiveness for our sins on the cross through repentance, confession and trusting in the cross to cleanse us and pay the price for our sins.

God says His heart is forgiving if we also are forgiving.

A trick of a teacher is to say words like, does this sound like ... using a cultural understanding but not actually quoting it or truly justifying his point. That is pure deception.

 

[garee]

In the whole of theology, one critical failure distorts everything, just 4 words, "future sin is forgiven."

Yes he is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world (the six days he did work)The seventh day he rested as the rest we do have in Christ.

He forgives all our sin. This is I believe knowing if we violate the least of his law we are guilty of the whole. Every sin carries the eternal damnation, as the wage due. Therefore every thing that is not of His faith is sin.

Surely that cannot be important.
1. It is not a scriptural concept, in fact it is the sin Israel always used to justify their behaviour

It is how natural man works without the Spirit of Christ. We do not look at their behavior but the behavior of those who have been born again. If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to Him.

2. It allows believers to continue in sin and not aspire to the kingdom

It allows natural, unconverted man without the Spirit of Christ to continue in sin and not aspire to the kingdom

3. It changes morality, the role of the law, sacrifices, relationships, repentance, confession
4. It means relationships do not matter, because the ticket is bought

I see that a little differently knowing our confidence in Christ as new creatures makes us complete or perfect. It’s our relationship with Him that does matter because he paid the eternal wage.

According to Galatians 3, Christ’s first work, working in us is called the hearing of faith (His faith)This is not from our own conscience as a faith that comes from us imagining through our fleshly minds. If he has begun it according to Galatians 3 we do not look to our flesh to finish it. That would prove to be an empty boast in vain.

If he has begun making us perfect (complete in Him) he will finish the work And forgive us of all our sin past, present and future. It is why called it is called gospel (good news) and not good advice on how to be saved as a work we could do till the end.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

It means because the ticket was bought with a work of His own faith as a labor of His love. We therefore have His confidence to know it is not a ticket that allows us to sin but when we do deny his grace when we sin and he turns us back to himself by the grace we did deny , after he turns us we then can repent. Seeing our sin has been paid in full and there would be nothing restricting us from being with him eternally. .

 

[RBA238]

The main reason Scriptures are mis understood, or taken say Literally, when in fact the verse has a type & shadow, or other meaning, is simply the fact the person is not in possession of being in dwelled with The Spirit of God within them. Did not Jesus declare: " The FATHER, he shall teach you all things"?!!
The Father is The Spirit..John 4 verse 24. Unless a person has his Spirit in dwelled within in him/ her they cannot correctly in many cases properly interpret scripture which has a deeper meaning.

 

[Grace777x70]

We forgive in the New Covenant because we know we are forgiven and it is out of love from our hearts - not a commandment to fulfill. Jesus said "He that has been forgiven much - loves much".

The Cross changed things and the New Covenant was brought into effect. Here is what forgiveness looks like in the New Covenant after Jesus' death and resurrection and now He lives in our new hearts created in righteousness and holiness.

Ephesians 4:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Colossians 3:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

 

[Grace777x70]

I wonder why Peter and Paul never said anything about having to forgive before we receive forgiveness from God when they preached the gospel?

( the truth is that Jesus elevated the law as He often did to show people that they really couldn't keep it and that they needed a Savior )

People who lived under the Old Covenant did not have a means of lasting forgiveness as a part of the covenant under which they lived which is why it was "conditional."

Here are the very scriptures again - remember these are word-for-word accounts of the true gospel of the grace of Christ being preached.

Here's Peter....shouldn't he have said "You need to forgive anyone first before you can receive God's forgiveness by the blood of Jesus"??

Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."


And the same thing for Paul - he didn't say 'You need to forgive first before we you can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus" ??


Acts 13:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Or is it possible Jesus was talking about the law and He elevated the true meaning of the law when He gave those words out for His disciples at the time they were still under law then?

The New Covenant didn't come into effect until Jesus died and rose again to obtain our eternal forgiveness.

Here Paul says that forgiveness is all based on "according to the riches of His grace "..not if we forgive first.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

 

[PeterJens]

I wonder why Peter and Paul never said anything about having to forgive before we receive forgiveness from God when they preached the gospel?

This is a good point. Until you have experienced forgiveness yourself, and started to forgive others, none of this makes sense. Much of following Jesus is about learning spiritual realities after you have been born again.

It would be meaningless for people to desire to forgive, if they themselves have never experienced it or even see a need.

But God is 100% conditional on, just as we have been forgiven we must forgive. Forgiveness is connected to understanding who we are as sinners who have been redeemed, the insanity of sin and its destructive nature. How can you love your enemies unless you can exercise forgiveness and walk in mercy and peace.

 

[Dan_473]

Grace7 - I do not know how to pray for you. I do not know you...

we can pray for people we don't know

1 TIMOTHY 2:1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and givings of thanks, be made for all men.

 

[JaumeJ]

Yes, we should pray for all people always, especially the lost to see the Light of Jesus Christ and cme to It and dwell forever.......increase the family in Christ, amen.

we can pray for people we don't know

1 TIMOTHY 2:1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and givings of thanks, be made for all men.

 

[Grace777x70]

I wonder why Peter and Paul never said anything about having to forgive before we receive forgiveness from God when they preached the gospel?

And I also wonder why Paul in all this 13 epistles to the church never once mentioned that in order to experience God's forgiveness you need to forgive others.

If having any "more" forgiveness is on the complete reliance of having forgiven others then Paul should have doubly warned the saints.

But there is no such thing because the reality of Christ's magnificent work is that sin has been dealt with on the cross. Let's believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ!


In fact he said the complete opposite. Paul said to forgive because you have already been forgiven by God because of the blood of Jesus.

( which is why there are self-proclaimed heretic hunters websites dedicated to Paul being a heretic because he "conflicted" with Jesus' words )

This "conflicts" with what we have been taught in our religious upbringing. Jesus said the traditions of men make void the word of God in our lives.