Whats the deal with Catholics?
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Not only does the Catholics teach Mary can hear our Prayers and answer them, they also believe we can ONLY come to Jesus through Mary!
If a Catholic wants to talk to Jesus they need to go through Mary first! They teach Mary Intercedes for us through Her to reach God.
How can any Catholic enter into Heaven with all this Mary Worshiping they do?
If a Catholic wants to talk to Jesus they need to go through Mary first! They teach Mary Intercedes for us through Her to reach God.
How can any Catholic enter into Heaven with all this Mary Worshiping they do?
So what? Tell me about what you know from the bible. All that other stuff is just dung according to Paul.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Ask yourself a simple question. If you died right now would you go to heaven. You need to have full assurance that you would go to heaven or be fully assured that you won't. There is no middle ground. If you can say with full assurance that you will go to heaven then provide scripture to support your hope.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Ask yourself a simple question. If you died right now would you go to heaven. You need to have full assurance that you would go to heaven or be fully assured that you won't. There is no middle ground. If you can say with full assurance that you will go to heaven then provide scripture to support your hope.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Dear Lady Blue
The Catholic Church dousnt teach that saints answers prayers. Only God can do that What the Church does teach is we are called to ask each other to pray for each other. That's what Catholics do if we asks saint to pray for us if any prayers are answered it is a result of God answering them.
The Catholic Church dousnt teach that saints answers prayers. Only God can do that What the Church does teach is we are called to ask each other to pray for each other. That's what Catholics do if we asks saint to pray for us if any prayers are answered it is a result of God answering them.
How can you ask someone dead and in the Grave to Pray for you DeaconMike????
1 Thessalonians 4:3-18
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Mary is dead and in the Grave and so are the Saints. You are Praying to dead people DeaconMike which is a Mortal sin that will destroy your Soul.
Mary is not in Heaven, Mary is dead and in the Grave. Your are Worshiping a Demon DeaconMike.
I follow God only. I have absolutely no need for Mary. Mary is worthless to me. Only God and God only is who i Worship.
Long gone are my days of being in the Corrupted Catholic Church. It was not until after God removed me from the Catholic Church that i found Jesus!
1 Thessalonians 4:3-18
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Mary is dead and in the Grave and so are the Saints. You are Praying to dead people DeaconMike which is a Mortal sin that will destroy your Soul.
Mary is not in Heaven, Mary is dead and in the Grave. Your are Worshiping a Demon DeaconMike.
I follow God only. I have absolutely no need for Mary. Mary is worthless to me. Only God and God only is who i Worship.
Long gone are my days of being in the Corrupted Catholic Church. It was not until after God removed me from the Catholic Church that i found Jesus!
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Who does prayer edify?
Heb 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Who does prayer edify?
Heb 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We pray for those who ask us to pray for them.
We REFUSE to ask Mary to pray for us because she is dead and in the grave.
I ask you, is Mary alive or dead? She is dead. Therefore its a Mortal sin to ask dead people to pray for you.
When i stand next to you and ask you to pray for me that is not a sin. It is a sin to Pray to dead people like Mary. AND its a sin that does destroy the Soul.
We REFUSE to ask Mary to pray for us because she is dead and in the grave.
I ask you, is Mary alive or dead? She is dead. Therefore its a Mortal sin to ask dead people to pray for you.
When i stand next to you and ask you to pray for me that is not a sin. It is a sin to Pray to dead people like Mary. AND its a sin that does destroy the Soul.
Dear Lady Blue
Ok we are getting somewhere. You seem to recognize that if you pray for someone that does not interfere with Christ primary mediatorship. If you pray for someone, you are inteceding on behalf for them. To be healed of a sickness or whatever. Why should they ask you when they can go t
straight to Jesus?
So lets look at 1 Tim
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4).
Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
The problem I think your having is that the saints are dead. Lets look at this objection.
The Catholic rational for asking someone that has died to pray for us is simple and biblical.
1. We are all part of the Body of Christ
" No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
New American Bible. (2011). (Revised Edition, Ro 8:37–39).
So death does not make us "get out of Christ."
2. We ought to pray for each other (much biblical proof).
3. “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16; cf. 5:17–18).
4. Therefore it makes eminent sense to ask more righteous people to pray for us (implied in same passage), because the possibility of a positive result is greater.
5. Dead saints are more alive than we ourselves are (e.g., Matt 22:32).
6. Dead saints are aware of what happens on the earth (Heb 12:1 etc.), and indeed, are portrayed as praying for us in heaven (Rev 6:9–10).
7. Dead saints are exceptionally, if not wholly, righteous and holy, since they have been delivered from sin and are present with God (21:27, 22:14).
As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
.
Ok we are getting somewhere. You seem to recognize that if you pray for someone that does not interfere with Christ primary mediatorship. If you pray for someone, you are inteceding on behalf for them. To be healed of a sickness or whatever. Why should they ask you when they can go t
straight to Jesus?
So lets look at 1 Tim
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4).
Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
The problem I think your having is that the saints are dead. Lets look at this objection.
The Catholic rational for asking someone that has died to pray for us is simple and biblical.
1. We are all part of the Body of Christ
" No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
New American Bible. (2011). (Revised Edition, Ro 8:37–39).
So death does not make us "get out of Christ."
2. We ought to pray for each other (much biblical proof).
3. “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16; cf. 5:17–18).
4. Therefore it makes eminent sense to ask more righteous people to pray for us (implied in same passage), because the possibility of a positive result is greater.
5. Dead saints are more alive than we ourselves are (e.g., Matt 22:32).
6. Dead saints are aware of what happens on the earth (Heb 12:1 etc.), and indeed, are portrayed as praying for us in heaven (Rev 6:9–10).
7. Dead saints are exceptionally, if not wholly, righteous and holy, since they have been delivered from sin and are present with God (21:27, 22:14).
As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
.
Dear VDP and Lady Blue
Sounds like you believe in "soul sleep." Verses that speak of the dead sleeping use phenomenological language. For example, Daniel 12:2 states, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." This image is of people getting up much as a sleeper rises in the morning. The sleep being discussed is phenomenological sleep, not literal sleep (Daniel is not talking about living people who sleep on the ground). Because dead people look like they are sleeping, especially when lying on their deathbeds (and notice that people often die on beds, enhancing the sleep analogy), the Bible often uses "sleep" as a euphemism for "death." In fact, this euphemism is common today.
In Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, "When he [Christ] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'" Here John sees the disembodied souls of early Christian martyrs. The fact they are disembodied is known because they have been slain. Thus disembodied souls exist. The fact they are conscious is known because they cry out to God for vengeance. Unconscious people can't do that. Thus conscious, disembodied souls exist.
In Revelation 20:4 John sees these souls again: "Then I saw . . . the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Here again we have disembodied souls (they had been beheaded). John sees them coming to life to reign with Christ--hence they are in a pre-resurrection state. Some scholars argue that this is a spiritual resurrection rather than a physical one. Even if that were so, it would only strengthen the case for conscious, disembodied souls because, after having been beheaded, they would be reigning with Christ in heaven in a disembodied state.
Sounds like you believe in "soul sleep." Verses that speak of the dead sleeping use phenomenological language. For example, Daniel 12:2 states, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." This image is of people getting up much as a sleeper rises in the morning. The sleep being discussed is phenomenological sleep, not literal sleep (Daniel is not talking about living people who sleep on the ground). Because dead people look like they are sleeping, especially when lying on their deathbeds (and notice that people often die on beds, enhancing the sleep analogy), the Bible often uses "sleep" as a euphemism for "death." In fact, this euphemism is common today.
In Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, "When he [Christ] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'" Here John sees the disembodied souls of early Christian martyrs. The fact they are disembodied is known because they have been slain. Thus disembodied souls exist. The fact they are conscious is known because they cry out to God for vengeance. Unconscious people can't do that. Thus conscious, disembodied souls exist.
In Revelation 20:4 John sees these souls again: "Then I saw . . . the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Here again we have disembodied souls (they had been beheaded). John sees them coming to life to reign with Christ--hence they are in a pre-resurrection state. Some scholars argue that this is a spiritual resurrection rather than a physical one. Even if that were so, it would only strengthen the case for conscious, disembodied souls because, after having been beheaded, they would be reigning with Christ in heaven in a disembodied state.
Dear VDP
again at the risk of repeating myself The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
When i stand next to you and ask you to pray for me that is not a sin. It is a sin to Pray to dead people like Mary. AND its a sin that does destroy the Soul.[/QUOTE]
again at the risk of repeating myself The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
When i stand next to you and ask you to pray for me that is not a sin. It is a sin to Pray to dead people like Mary. AND its a sin that does destroy the Soul.[/QUOTE]
Dear VDP
The word worship has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means “the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity.” To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.
For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods. It means that they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.
Outside of this example, however, the English term worship has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use worship in the older, broader sense. This can lead to confusion when people who are familiar with only the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.
In Scripture, the term worship was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make clearer which is due to God and which is not.
As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (cf. Matt. 10:41). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than] + dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor due to her is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.
All of these terms—latria, dulia, and hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word worship. Sometimes when one reads old books discussing how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word worship by referring to “the worship of latria” or “the worship of dulia.” To contemporaries and those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.
Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God, and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due to humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, “We adore God but we honor his saints.”
Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics “worship” Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God. The Church is very clear about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call “worship”—is to be given only to God.
Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term.
The word worship has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means “the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity.” To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.
For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods. It means that they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.
Outside of this example, however, the English term worship has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use worship in the older, broader sense. This can lead to confusion when people who are familiar with only the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.
In Scripture, the term worship was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make clearer which is due to God and which is not.
As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (cf. Matt. 10:41). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than] + dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor due to her is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.
All of these terms—latria, dulia, and hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word worship. Sometimes when one reads old books discussing how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word worship by referring to “the worship of latria” or “the worship of dulia.” To contemporaries and those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.
Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God, and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due to humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, “We adore God but we honor his saints.”
Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics “worship” Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God. The Church is very clear about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call “worship”—is to be given only to God.
Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term.