Whats the deal with Catholics?

[DeaconMike]

What did the early Church believe about praying to saints ( asking their intercession) It was the accepted practice and the Christians inherited the basic theology from later Judaism. Naturally they applies it to their own practice. Below are "quotes" from early Church documents addressing the intercession of the saints. Please note the dates written.

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

Hermas

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Anonymous

"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).
"Mother of God,
[listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Methodius

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).
"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).

 

[God4me]

What did the early Church believe about praying to saints ( asking their intercession) It was the accepted practice and the Christians inherited the basic theology from later Judaism. Naturally they applies it to their own practice. Below are "quotes" from early Church documents addressing the intercession of the saints. Please note the dates written.

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

Hermas

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Anonymous

"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).
"Mother of God,
[listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Methodius

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).
"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).

Nowhere does the Bible say that we should pray to the Angeles, Mary or the departed saints, or they pray for us.
The Catholics believe that Mary is God, as there are many people from all over the world praying to her at the some time, making her omnipresent, But only God is omnipresent.
Mary wasn't an ever virgin, she had at least seven other children apart from Jesus.

 

[Katy-follower]

Just to clear any confusion....... it all comes down to salvation.

There cannot be unity between two different gospels. This is the core of the issue - the gospel being taught. Catholicism does teach a different gospel. If you are catholic then presumably you believe the teachings of catholicism.

Simply put - it's JESUS, with nothing & no one else added.

Picture Jesus standing between you and hell, and you're hanging from monkey bars. Those monkey bars represent sacraments and various traditions that are required by catholicism. If you let go of the monkey bars do you trust that Jesus will catch you and stop you from falling into hell? By gripping to the monkey bars (and refusing to let go) you do not have faith that Jesus ALONE will save you. By clinging to these "works" you are rejecting Christ's ONE PERFECT sacrifice as being sufficient to save you. You are saying "Yes, Lord, but I must do these things also"

The problem so many have is that they just cannot believe how easy it is. They really believe that they must do something also. But how embarrassing to think that we can do anything, since we're described in the scriptures as filthy rags (the equivalent of a used tampon!) You must let go of all things and see that only Christ can save you. It's by grace through faith ALONE IN HIS WORK, not ours. It is not His work + ours.

This is the big road block with catholicism. I have seen the zeal that catholics have, but they are being kept from the truth.

Some of us on here are ex catholics, we have catholic family and have attended catholic schools and churches. I've researched catholicism in great depth and even have been to a catholic church, just to hear the teachings from the priest's mouth, making notes on all of the errors of this different gospel being taught. I even spoke with a priest, telling him how the teachings did not agree with the scriptures. His response to me sharing the word of God was "Baloney". Anyway, I share this just so you don't assume that those who are anti-catholic teachings (not the people, the teachings) are misguided or deceived about the teachings of the catholic church.

Yes, all the Mary prayers and adoration is wrong, as are the traditions and teachings of catholicism, but it all comes down to salvation. This is why there can never be unity among "christian" systems - because only the one gospel can unite believers. You cannot unite both light and darkness. There is no unity between truth and falsehoods, especially when it comes to the gospel.

Nothing changes. History repeats itself. Have a read of this....

Hebrews 10:11-18: "And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man (Jesus), after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin"

I would recommend listening to Richard Bennett, an ex catholic priest. This is worth listening to....



[video=youtube;AzLmyjVWCaQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzLmyjVWCaQ[/video]

 

[FranC]

Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Keep in mind that the Pharisees worshipped God but not according to knowledge of the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I keep everything in mind when I answer to a post.

I like to keep in mind that we're supposed to love each other, not tear each other down.

And regarding God not hearing sinners:

Are you not a sinner??
Do you suppose he hears YOU??

Fran

 

[mailmandan]

Just to clear any confusion....... it all comes down to salvation.

There cannot be unity between two different gospels. This is the core of the issue - the gospel being taught. Catholicism does teach a different gospel. If you are catholic then presumably you believe the teachings of catholicism.

Simply put - it's JESUS, with nothing & no one else added.

Picture Jesus standing between you and hell, and you're hanging from monkey bars. Those monkey bars represent sacraments and various traditions that are required by catholicism. If you let go of the monkey bars do you trust that Jesus will catch you and stop you from falling into hell? By gripping to the monkey bars (and refusing to let go) you do not have faith that Jesus ALONE will save you. By clinging to these "works" you are rejecting Christ's ONE PERFECT sacrifice as being sufficient to save you. You are saying "Yes, Lord, but I must do these things also"

Amen! Well said. Christ's ONE PERFECT sacrifice is sufficient and complete to save us. No supplements needed. Roman Catholicism "adds" supplements/works (sacraments, traditions etc..) to the gospel of Christ which makes Christ's ALL-sufficient sacrifice IN-sufficient to save us. The blood of Christ is sufficient to purify us from all sin (1 John 1:7) yet Catholicism says purgatory is further needed in order to purify us from all sin. Though Catholics are sincere, they are sincerely wrong about the plan of salvation and need to hear the truth.

 

[DeaconMike]

Dear Mail maiden
The Carholic Church believes Christ's sacrifice is all sufficient. The Church also teaches that we are saved by grace alone through faith.
What we don't believe is we are saved by " faith alone". Let me qualify here for you.
Sacraments like baptism are not looked at as "works". In fact baptism is neccesssry for salvation. Cathoilic s do not believe you " earn your way into Heaven. In fact that is a herasy condemned back in the 4th century by the Church
A good way to explain it is look at Eph 2 8:11
St. Paul saysw
" for it is by grace you have been saved through faith "
St Paul is talking about a chronological period of time " before we are saved" In other words nothing we can do can put God under obligation to pay us for doing good works.now look at the rest of the verses.
" and this is not from yourself it is a work of God".
St Paul is now speaking about the moment we become children of God.
Now look at the next verses. So soon as we become children of God
Verse for we are his workmanship made for good works
I thought St Paul just said good works dousnt earn salvation!!
They don't. But once we become children of God ( saved in your language) good works are neccessary and very much apart of our salvation

If you look closely at Sacred Scripture you will find lots of things are " neccesssry for salvation "
Faith
Repentence
Keeping the commandments
Baptism
Loving our neighbor as ourself
Forgiving others
Confessing Christ

Scrioture teaches that all these things are neccessary.



Now I would like to challenge you to show me where in the Bible that it states that we are saved by " faith alone"?

 

[DeaconMike]

Dear Katie Follower
Can you show me where in the bible it says we
Are saved by " faith alone"

 

[notuptome]

I keep everything in mind when I answer to a post.

I like to keep in mind that we're supposed to love each other, not tear each other down.

And regarding God not hearing sinners:

Are you not a sinner??
Do you suppose he hears YOU??

Fran

The first prayer God hears is the prayer from the sinner seeking forgiveness of sin through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Our obligation is to be a witness of Gods saving grace in Jesus Christ. To testify of how Christ saved us and will save whosoever will call upon Christ for salvation through the forgiveness of sin.

Scripture says God does not hear the prayers of sinners as in unsaved people. God does not want His children to be separated from Him by sin. Christians are to pray for forgiveness for their sins everyday knowing God is faithful and just to forgive those sins.

Christians are to come boldly before the throne of grace.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So you tell me what is Gods word teaching on this matter?

Absolutely frightening to consider that God is separated from us by our sin. Part of eternal condemnation is the absolute loneness created by the complete absence of Gods presence.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DeaconMike]

Rodger
Please show me in Sacred Scripture where it states " God does not hear prayers from people who are not saved".
That certainly is a new one

 

[notuptome]

Dear Mail maiden
The Carholic Church believes Christ's sacrifice is all sufficient. The Church also teaches that we are saved by grace alone through faith.
What we don't believe is we are saved by " faith alone". Let me qualify here for you.
Sacraments like baptism are not looked at as "works". In fact baptism is neccesssry for salvation. Cathoilic s do not believe you " earn your way into Heaven. In fact that is a herasy condemned back in the 4th century by the Church
A good way to explain it is look at Eph 2 8:11
St. Paul saysw
" for it is by grace you have been saved through faith "
St Paul is talking about a chronological period of time " before we are saved" In other words nothing we can do can put God under obligation to pay us for doing good works.now look at the rest of the verses.
" and this is not from yourself it is a work of God".
St Paul is now speaking about the moment we become children of God.
Now look at the next verses. So soon as we become children of God
Verse for we are his workmanship made for good works
I thought St Paul just said good works dousnt earn salvation!!
They don't. But once we become children of God ( saved in your language) good works are neccessary and very much apart of our salvation

If you look closely at Sacred Scripture you will find lots of things are " neccesssry for salvation "
Faith
Repentence
Keeping the commandments
Baptism
Loving our neighbor as ourself
Forgiving others
Confessing Christ

Scrioture teaches that all these things are neccessary.



Now I would like to challenge you to show me where in the Bible that it states that we are saved by " faith alone"?

Slick how you lay out a laundry list of must do's for salvation and then say it's not by works.

We are not saved by faith alone that is a misleading statement. We are saved by grace alone. We are saved unto good works but works have no part in salvation or men would boast.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God expects you to receive His word not change it to suit your theology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Rodger
Please show me in Sacred Scripture where it states " God does not hear prayers from people who are not saved".
That certainly is a new one

It's in your bible. Do you ever read your bible?

Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PennEd]

Sorry, but every time I see this thread title I imagine Jerry Seinfeld saying it!

 

[DeaconMike]

Rodger
I agree. We are not saved by faith alone. Salvation is not just a one time event. As you just stated we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by grace through faith. And apparently you agree with the Catholic Church thst we cannot earn our salvation. The Catholic Church is very clear on that.
So we must continue in loving our neighbor
Keeping the commandments , seeking forgiveness.
And they do affect our future salvation. That is why St Paul says

Rom 2
" But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath against yourself for the dsy of Gods wrath when his righteous judgement will be revealed
God will repay each person according to his works.
To those who PERSIST in DOING GOOD seek glory honor and immortality. But to those who are self seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil there will be anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil. .....
Verse 13. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in Gods sight BUT THE DOERS of the law will be justiiyed"

Rodger
Note we are judged by what we do. Second note the Gr word dikiosona ( justified) is in the future sense ( will be) something that will be accomplished in the future

 

[PennEd]

Boy. My ignore list is getting long!

 

[notuptome]

Rodger
I agree. We are not saved by faith alone. Salvation is not just a one time event. As you just stated we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by grace through faith. And apparently you agree with the Catholic Church thst we cannot earn our salvation. The Catholic Church is very clear on that.
So we must continue in loving our neighbor
Keeping the commandments , seeking forgiveness.
And they do affect our future salvation. That is why St Paul says

Rom 2
" But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath against yourself for the dsy of Gods wrath when his righteous judgement will be revealed
God will repay each person according to his works.
To those who PERSIST in DOING GOOD seek glory honor and immortality. But to those who are self seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil there will be anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil. .....
Verse 13. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in Gods sight BUT THE DOERS of the law will be justiiyed"

Rodger
Note we are judged by what we do. Second note the Gr word dikiosona ( justified) is in the future sense ( will be) something that will be accomplished in the future

I must correct you again. Salvation is a singular event. Sanctification is an ongoing process.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Saved souls do not appear before the Great White Throne for judgment. Saved souls appear before the judgment seat of Christ where their works are judged but the believer is not judged.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

If the RCC were to agree with the bible they would agree with me. Since the RCC always changes what the bible teaches to mean something that God has not intended, it is not likely I will ever agree with the RCC.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[mailmandan]

Dear Mail maiden
The Carholic Church believes Christ's sacrifice is all sufficient.

Hello DeaconMike, if the Catholic Church believes that Christ's sacrifice is all sufficient, then why do they teach that salvation is through faith AND works and also why do they teach that purgatory is also necessary in order to purify us from all sin? You can't have it both ways.

The Church also teaches that we are saved by grace alone through faith.
What we don't believe is we are saved by " faith alone".

The Catholic Church teaches that man is saved through faith AND works. If it's of works then grace is no longer grace. Man is saved through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Ephesians 2:8,9). Man is not saved by an "empty profession of faith" that merely claims to be genuine (says he has faith) but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead (James 2:14-24).

Let me qualify here for you.
Sacraments like baptism are not looked at as "works".

If baptism is not a work then what is it? Just a nothing? No work is accomplished when one is water baptized? When John wanted to prevent Jesus from being baptized by him, Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. (Matthew 3:13-15). Obviously then, baptism is a "work of righteousness" and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) and the washing of regeneration is not accomplished by water baptism, but pictures it.

In fact baptism is neccesssry for salvation. Cathoilic s do not believe you " earn your way into Heaven. In fact that is a herasy condemned back in the 4th century by the Church

Water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation. Just ask the thief on the cross. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. There are certain verses in the Bible that "on the surface" appear to teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation, (just as there are certain verses in the Bible that "on the surface" appear to teach that we are saved by works) but that is not the case. Also see Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9. Saved through believing in Him/faith BEFORE water baptism.

A good way to explain it is look at Eph 2 8:11
St. Paul saysw
" for it is by grace you have been saved through faith "
St Paul is talking about a chronological period of time " before we are saved" In other words nothing we can do can put God under obligation to pay us for doing good works.now look at the rest of the verses.
" and this is not from yourself it is a work of God".
St Paul is now speaking about the moment we become children of God.
Now look at the next verses. So soon as we become children of God
Verse for we are his workmanship made for good works
I thought St Paul just said good works dousnt earn salvation!!
They don't. But once we become children of God ( saved in your language) good works are neccessary and very much apart of our salvation

Saved by grace through faith and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works is very clear. Paul said that we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:10). Good works are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. This is where Catholics error.

If you look closely at Sacred Scripture you will find lots of things are " neccesssry for salvation "
Faith
Repentence
Keeping the commandments
Baptism
Loving our neighbor as ourself
Forgiving others
Confessing Christ

Those who have placed their faith in Christ for salvation have already repented in the process of changing their mind and placing their faith in Christ for salvation. That does not change the fact that we are saved the moment that we place our faith IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation. Keeping the commandments is what believers do BECAUSE they are saved and not to become saved. You have this backwards. Water baptism follows saving faith in Christ. Loving our neighbor as ourself is what believers strive to do BECAUSE they are saved and not to become saved, yet believers are not sinless and perfect. Forgiving others is the mark of a child of God and so is practicing righteousness and loving our brother. See 1 John 3:10.

Scrioture teaches that all these things are neccessary.

Let me ask you. Have you perfectly obeyed ALL the commandments? By the way, the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" which means to keep, guard, watch over, preserve and is not teaching sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time. None of us are sinless 100% of the time. Have you perfectly loved your neighbor as yourself? Are you trusting 100% in Christ for salvation or are you also trusting in your performance/works?

Now I would like to challenge you to show me where in the Bible that it states that we are saved by " faith alone"?

The Bible clearly teaches in many passages of Scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9 Philippians 3:9 etc..). You don't need to add the word "alone" next to belief/faith in each of these passages to figure out that the words belief/faith "stand alone" in each of these many passages of Scripture in connection with receiving salvation. Do these passages say belief/faith "plus something else?" NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

Now I challenge you to show me where the Bible says that man is "saved by works" or "saved through faith AND works."

 

[mailmandan]

If you look closely at Sacred Scripture you will find lots of things are " neccesssry for salvation "
Faith
Repentence
Keeping the commandments
Baptism
Loving our neighbor as ourself
Forgiving others
Confessing Christ

Scrioture teaches that all these things are neccessary.

Sorry, I forgot to cover Confessing Christ.

In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 14:6).

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

 

[FranC]

The first prayer God hears is the prayer from the sinner seeking forgiveness of sin through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Our obligation is to be a witness of Gods saving grace in Jesus Christ. To testify of how Christ saved us and will save whosoever will call upon Christ for salvation through the forgiveness of sin.

Scripture says God does not hear the prayers of sinners as in unsaved people. God does not want His children to be separated from Him by sin. Christians are to pray for forgiveness for their sins everyday knowing God is faithful and just to forgive those sins.

Christians are to come boldly before the throne of grace.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So you tell me what is Gods word teaching on this matter?

Absolutely frightening to consider that God is separated from us by our sin. Part of eternal condemnation is the absolute loneness created by the complete absence of Gods presence.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I see you believe he hears you.
And do you not believe YOU are a sinner?
Oh. You mean the unsaved are not heard.
Interesting.
Then how do they get saved if they have no interaction with God?

Please reconsider your position.
God's grace falls on ALL, the saved and the unsaved.
God loves ALL his creation.

John 3:16 is complete.
Genesis 1:2 The spirit of God was already at work in the new earth.
Genesis 6:3 God did not want the H.S. to be disgraced, which means it was with sinful man
1 Corinthians 2:14 The Holy Spirit was with Paul to convict unbelievers.
2 Peter 3:9 God is waiting for sinners to repent.

Fran

 

[FranC]

Sorry, I forgot to cover Confessing Christ.

In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 14:6).

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

Hi Mailmandan,
I usually agree with you but I'd like to make something clear here.
There is initial salvation which requires to work. It is justification by faith, by believing. Ephesians 2:8
Okay.

But it IS true that we are to live in a certain manner in order to keep our salvation. Do you not believe this? Do you believe one could do whatever he wants to and still be saved? Are you OSAS?

I believe the hyper faith movement is ruining the church.
Jesus did NOT say all we needed to stay saved was to declare Him as Savior and believe in Him.

First of all the word Believe means to believe in the heart, not in the mind. It means to trust, to follow. to adhere to.
To follow what? To adhere to what?

On the Deacon's list is:
Faith. Yes. You must have faith.
Repentance. Yes. You must repent. TURN AROUND and go the other way. Toward God and not toward satan.
Follow Commandments: Yes. Jesus said He did not come to ABOLISH the law and that not one iota is to be removed. He came to fulfill the Law. What does this mean? To complete. To make whole. To make it possible to follow it. NOT to abolish it.
Loving Neighbor: Jesus said to do this.
Forgiving others: Ditto
Confessing Christ: yes. Paul spoke to this. And also Jesus. Who is not ashamed of me...

I think the church has been brainwashed and we're so afraid of WORKS that we tilt the tables too much to the side of DOING NOTHING!

What say you?

Fran

 

[FranC]

I must correct you again. Salvation is a singular event. Sanctification is an ongoing process.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Saved souls do not appear before the Great White Throne for judgment. Saved souls appear before the judgment seat of Christ where their works are judged but the believer is not judged.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

If the RCC were to agree with the bible they would agree with me. Since the RCC always changes what the bible teaches to mean something that God has not intended, it is not likely I will ever agree with the RCC.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are correct here.

The RCC does not teach Justification and Sanctification as two totally different concepts and this causes much confusion.
This can be seen in the CCC no. 1987 to 2000. Sanctification is not spoken of too much and I believe this is due to infant baptism. This baptism causes theological problems. The RCC has considered abolishing this practice but it is too deeply ingrained and would upset the laity. Also, they really do believe that the child receives the Holy Spirit and that he is sealed and receives a mark.

The Deacon may want to comment. My belief is that babies do not need to be baptized because they cannot believe in Christ. So they say that the parents ask on the child's behalf. The same parents who are never seen again at Mass.

Having said all this, I must also say that the explanation for Justification/Sanctification as given in the CCC paragraphs I stated above is very beautiful. It should be meant for an adult since the RCC believes this happens at baptism and not at the moment of conversion.

Fran