Whats the deal with Catholics?

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Jul 8, 2016
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I told you that Mary had to find favour with God because she was a sinner.
The tense has nothing to do with the fact that Mary was a sinner who needed God's grace.
Dear God for Me
Oh but it has everything to do with it. the perfect tense s used to show an action has been completed. Not just a simple past action Gr would use an aorist tense. St Luke uses a perfect passive participle showing past and ongoing. When I get a moment I will post it from several lexicons if you wish. Or you can look it up for yourself. Either way fine with me
 
T

TemporaryCircumstances

Guest
So, I have read some of the comments and I want to say;
Bestil_andno,
You are very mature in you're responses and answer in a very respectful way.
I may not believe some of the things that you do, as it usually is with many of people; but, you have very much respect from me for the mature and respectful way you answer posts.
Keep it up, and God bless!
 
Jul 8, 2016
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Thank you. That's because it's not about winning arguments. It's about explaining the fsith.
All the good arguments in the world is not Enough to change hearts. Good answers only go so far. The Holy Spirit is the one that changes hearts.
As a Catholic Deacon I don't speak privately I speak for the Church. I have many good protestsnt friends. And I know where they are coming from and how they think. I was ordained with a Pentecostal pastor who became Catholic. I studied Reformed theology so I'm familiar with many of the positions from point of view. I
Gods blessings
 

Vdp

Banned
Nov 18, 2015
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What Tradition of the Jewish Religion ever said Mary was born without original sin? There is no such tradition.

Also why did it take 1500 years after the Catholic Church was founded by the Romans for the Catholic Pope to declare Mary was without sin? It was in 1854 when the Pope declared Mary to be without sin. Its interesting that it was 1500 years after the Catholic Church was founded, why? Could it be because this was the point in time the Catholics walked away from God to follow Satan?

No matter how you try to explain it away DeaconMike, being on your knees before a statue of Mary is Idolatry! Personally i have seen this many times while i was still in the Catholic Church.

I believe the reason you cannot see nor understand that Mary was never sinless is because you personally have never accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Many of your posts and your doctrines in those posts do not speak of Jesus, instead they speak for Satan. Even Jesus Himself said there are many people like you who reject Him to follow Satan.

Matthew 7:15-16
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You will know them by their fruits.

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Sorry to say DeaconMike but you are not a Child of God. Your posts clearly prove you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You have been deceived, just like i was deceived when i was in the Catholic Church.

But i thank God that He came looking for me to remove me from the Catholic Church and to give me my Salvation!

Do you really want to be on the outside looking in? You do know everybody in Heaven can see and will see all those in the Lake of Fire. Also you too will be able to see us in Heaven. Unfortunately God will not allow you leave the Lake of Fire, so for all of Eternity you will see that which you so carelessly have tossed aside.

Repent DeaconMike, turn away from the lies of the Catholics, turn to Jesus, accept Him as your Lord and Savior. I cannot stress this enough that you really need to toss aside Mary, turn away from Mary, stop praying to Mary, and have nothing to do with Mary!

Follow Jesus only. Pray only to Jesus. Serve only Jesus before its too late and God removes you from this World.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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The informal discussions of Jesus and the apostles are dynamically and organically related to Tradition and Scripture
In a single night of discussion, Jesus—or Paul, or other apostles passing along what they learned from our Lord—could easily have spoken more words than we have in the entire New Testament. It is implausible to think none of that had any effect on the subsequent teaching of these same apostles and disciples. One can remember encounters with extraordinary people for a lifetime—at least the main ideas, if not all particulars. Here are several examples of life-changing encounters with the apostle Paul, as a result of his vigorously sharing the gospel and apostolic Tradition with his hearers, at the greatest length (not merely citing Bible verses or passing out Old Testaments):
Acts 17:1–4: Now when they had passed through Amphip’olis and Apollo’nia, they came to Thessaloni’ca, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and for three weeks he argued with them from the scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ." And some of them were persuaded, and joined Paul and Silas; as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.
Acts 17:17: So he argued in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the market place every day with those who chanced to be there (cf. 18:4, 19).
Acts 19:8–10: And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, arguing and pleading about the kingdom of God; but when some were stubborn and disbelieved, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them, taking the disciples with him, and argued daily in the hall of Tyran’nus. This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.
15. The Bible never says that oral tradition would cease
Protestants will often acknowledge, when pressed, that authoritative oral teachings existed before Scripture was compiled, but then are quick to add that the written Bible obviated the need for them (and indeed, sola scriptura holds this by definition), so they ceased. Yet, the Bible says no such thing. It can’t be found anywhere. Thus, the Protestant notion of "no tradition after Scripture" is itself a false "tradition of men."
16. The New Testament frequently cites Deuterocanonical books
Since Protestants consider the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament (which they term the "Apocrypha") to be non-inspired and thus not part of the Bible, to cite them is, from their perspective, to cite an extra-biblical tradition. Yet, from Jesus and the New Testament writer we find a multitude of allusions to and citations of the deuterocanonical books. Here is a selection of examples from just the Gospel of Matthew:
Matthew 4:4 (cites Wisdom 16:26)
Matthew 4:15 (1 Maccabees 5:15)
Matthew 5:18 (Baruch 4:1)
Matthew 5:28 (Sirach 9:8)
Matthew 5:4 (Sirach 48:24)
Matthew 6:7 (Sirach 7:14)
Matthew 6:9 (Sirach 23:1, 4)
Matthew 6:10 (1 Maccabees 3:60)
Matthew 6:12 (Sirach 28:2)
Matthew 6:13 (Sirach 33:1)
Matthew 6:20 (Sirach 29:10–12)
Matthew 7:12 (Tobit 4:15; Sirach 31:15)
Matthew 7:16 (Sirach 27:6)
Matthew 8:11 (Baruch 4:37)
Matthew 9:36 (Judith 11:19)
Matthew 10:16 (Sirach 13:17)
Matthew 11:14 (Sirach 48:1–10)
Matthew 11:29 (Sirach 6:23–31; 51:26–27)
Matthew 12:4 (2 Maccabees 10:3)
Matthew 13:44 (Sirach 20:30–31)
Matthew 16:18 (Wisdom 16:13)
Matthew 16:27 (Sirach 35:18–19)
Matthew 17:11 (Sirach 48:10)
Matthew 18:10 (Tobit 12:15)
Matthew 23:38 (Tobit 14:4)
Matthew 27:24 (Susanna 1:46; Daniel 13:46 in Catholic bibles)
Matthew 27:43 (Wisdom 2:12–22)
Hi Deacon Mike,
This thread is moving along too quickly and I don't have the time to keep up. I believe you also replied to me and I will make an effort to find the replies.

Re the above. I wanted to print this out and study it. But I'm having a problem. For instance for Mathew 4:15 you cite
1 Maccabees 5:15. Every bible I have, including a Catholic Good News Bible, gives me Isaiah 9:1-2 as a reference.
Could you explain please or tell me the source for the above? I've never heard of this and find it very interesting.

Thanks
Fran
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Dear Mail Maiden
Sounds like your confused and in a panic. Relax. I'm not judging you. St Paul " qualifies faith" with the " obedience of Faith Rom 2 or "faith working through charity" or " love.
This means the " quality " of faith includes hope and charity. That is why St James says faith without works cannot save you. Because St Paul if refering to this definition of faith.
As I said before of key importance is Gal 5:6 which refers to faith working in charity. In Catholic theology this is what is known as fides formata The alternative is fides informis or " unformed faith"
Faith working in obedience means we must keep the commandments love our neighbor so forth. "works for Catholics mean the " obedience of faith
Or faith hope and charity.
The Catholic Church as I said before makes very clear we cannt earn eternal life buy putting God under obligation to pay us. Salvation is by grace through faith.
I have a question:
Would you say that obedience of faith is the same as justification/sanctification?
Or do you understand it to be something different?

Fran
 
Apr 30, 2016
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His name is mailmandan, not Mail Maiden. Please show a little respect to a fellow member.
If we're going to show respect, let it be on all sides.
The Deacon got a name wrong. That is not disrespect but a mistake.

Some on this thread are calling Catholics devils and the religion of the devil.
Is this having respect??
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11). We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.
Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.
The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was "redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son" (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

Again, something the church has always taught
The Ascension of Isaiah

"[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

The Odes of Solomon

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr

"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).
LOL
Deacon Mike,
I used to be Catholic and taught there.
I have used the pit example.
of course, you're right - but I like to say that the one who fell in the pit appreciates being saved more!
As in the parable of the two debtors.
 
T

TemporaryCircumstances

Guest
In life there are going to be people who have a different belief than you. The way to point to the truth is not to use harsh words or bash them for their beliefs, but it is to speak words of love and show how God works in His children.
A man who was a Jew was once talking to me about Judiasm. I took notes and listened patiently waiting for an opportunity to speak to Him about Christianity. Well, during a conversation he used many words of hate and I wrote at the bottom of my notes for Judiasm;
"Not true for they say they speak words of love when i hear words of rejection and hate."
The same is happening to those who look to God. They long to see the Truth that we know but with our hateful words we push them away from that.
Is this what we want happening?
Please try to speak respectfully, and in a mature manner through everything you say so many will be warmly welcomed to the HEAVENLY FATHER! :)
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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Yes, name calling does nothing to promote one's faith nor edify God. We should, as adults, be able to have a civil conversation especially with respect to our beliefs. I work many hours this week but would enjoy discussing what I disagree with the catholic church about. I will try and keep up and if you have time will post after church Sunday. Shalom.
 
May 26, 2016
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Dear God for Me
Oh but it has everything to do with it. the perfect tense s used to show an action has been completed. Not just a simple past action Gr would use an aorist tense. St Luke uses a perfect passive participle showing past and ongoing. When I get a moment I will post it from several lexicons if you wish. Or you can look it up for yourself. Either way fine with me

The grace was given to Mary because she wasn't worthy, the point is, Mary needed grace, and she had to find favour with God, as she wasn't worthy being the sinner she was.
Nowhere does the Bible say Mary wasn't a sinner, because she always was.
Your Mary isn't the Biblical Mary, And that's a fact.
 
Feb 26, 2015
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Why DeaconMike if Mary was without sin, did it take the Catholic Church over 1500 years to remember this?

I find it a bit suspicious that all of a sudden 1500 years later the Catholics suddenly remember Mary was without sin.

No DeaconMike. The real reason was Satan was finally able to completely take over the Vatican and have the Popes do his bidding. This is the real reason why there was a 1500 year gap.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Dear Mail Maiden
Sounds like your confused and in a panic. Relax. I'm not judging you.
Not confused or in a panic at all and I'm perfectly relaxed.

St Paul " qualifies faith" with the " obedience of Faith Rom 2 or "faith working through charity" or " love.
As I already explained to you in post #583, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel” (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR or UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR or UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). We have access by FAITH into GRACE.. (Romans 5:2) not faith “and obedience.” We are saved through faith first (not faith and obedience), then "unto" obedience (good works). In a nutshell, saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation and obedience which follows and is produced out of faith is works.

In regards to Romans 2, if one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These workss done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

This means the " quality " of faith includes hope and charity. That is why St James says faith without works cannot save you. Because St Paul if refering to this definition of faith.
It's the object of our faith that saves us and the object of our faith in receiving salvation is CHRIST ALONE. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. If we have faith, then we have this hope. Faith works through love, but faith is not defined as love. See Romans 5:5. Faith works through love AFTER we have been saved through faith. We are not saved through faith + works of charity.

As I said before of key importance is Gal 5:6 which refers to faith working in charity. In Catholic theology this is what is known as fides formata The alternative is fides informis or " unformed faith"
Faith working in obedience means we must keep the commandments love our neighbor so forth. "works for Catholics mean the " obedience of faith
Or faith hope and charity.
This is salvation through faith + works. Must keep the commandments or will keep the commandments? BTY the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" which means to keep, guard, watch over, preserve and does not mean sinless perfect obedience. So you have man saved based on the merits of keeping His commandments/loving our neighbor and you still say that Catholics don't teach salvation by works? Sugar coated double talk.

The Catholic Church as I said before makes very clear we cannt earn eternal life buy putting God under obligation to pay us. Salvation is by grace through faith.
So we cannot earn eternal life by doing good works, but we must do good works (perform acts of charity, keep His commandments, love our neighbor etc..) in order to become saved? That is an oxymoron. You are confusing DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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We are made righteous by Gods grace. Gods grace makes us righteous like we had never sinned.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Fully justified.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jul 8, 2016
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Also why did it take 1500 years after the Catholic Church was founded by the Romans for the Catholic Pope to declare Mary was without sin? It was in 1854 when the Pope declared Mary to be without sin. Its interesting that it was 1500 years after the Catholic Church was founded, why? Could it be because this was the point in time the Catholics walked away from God to follow Satan?
Dear VDP


The Church did not wake up one morning in 1851and decide " hey look guys' a new doctrine, lets define it!"

When ever the Church defines anything, and believe me they don't define nearly as much as people think, ( Protestants are much more "dogmatic") it is because of controversy. Out of the 21 Ecumenical councils of the Church, only one has not been about defining an issue or settling a matter. Whether it be the trinity, the hypostatic union what ever. The II Vatican Council in 1962 -1965 was the only "Pastoral council' ever held.
So when the Church is defining something it usually because it has been challenged and the Church needs to protect the original deposit of Faith.


This defining doctrine however is different. There were no objections about the doctrine and belief in the Church. In fact the teaching has been around as far back as the 2nd century. ( a very large collection of the Church Fathers is available on this)

Ok, so why did the Church define it. Simply because the Church felt it was time.

So where on earth did the Church ever get the idea Mary was sinless? This is a big question and you have to like to read!! so be patient with me.

The Early Church fathers very early ( 2nd century) recognized a connection with Jesus the New Adam and the 1st Adam. ( Rom5) In fact this is so important because it is the basis of re generation. One is born in the Old Adam and through baptism one becomes or shares in the life of the New Adam.
So the connection was made, If Jesus was the new Adam and that parallels the Old Adam, what role did Eve play?

The Church at this stage was developing style of biblical interpretation ( mainly from the School of Alexandria) of typology. ( I will explain that further here.)

The question a Protestant would have is why on earth would God make Mary sinless?
To understand this I need to take you several places to connect the dots.

But first a good story to set the reason WHY GOD would do this.

. Indeed, Christ offered one perfect, super-sufficient and super abundant sacrifice on the cross. We are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. Our redemption in Christ has elevated us not to just the same natural righteousness or son-ship Adam enjoyed before the fall, but to supernatural righteousness as children of God. Jn 1:12.
The super-sufficient and super abundant merit of Christ’s life, death and resurrection have won the victory over sin, death, and the devil. God’s perfect plan of redemption.
So far we have
Christ alone saves
God’s perfect plan of redemption is perfect, and lacking in nothing.

Now, if you recall the fall, Satan didn’t go straight to Adam to accomplish his goal. He did it in little steps, first tempting Eve, step by step, until Adam finally cooperated.
So next, Im going to use an analogy to make my point. There is a difference between Super abundant Victory and Perfect Redemption.

John and ted are BIG football fans. For them, they lived it every day. Talking about it, matching scores. John’s favorite team was the hometown team, and Ted’s favorite was an out of town team. One day, the unimaginable happened. Both teams made the play off’s. The rivalry was intense. The championship game of nerve racking. Each team playwed flawlessly, even more the game was scoreless right until the last minute of the game.
Then John’s team was one yard from a touchdown. One yard away from the championship. The coach decided to throw the ball into the touchdown, but something happened. As the quarterback of John’s team thru the ball, the worst player on Ted’s team intercepted the ball, ran 100 yards for the winning touchdown as the clock ran out. Ted’s team has a Super abundant victory.
As you can imagine, the next week Ted was over John’s hose rubbing it in. How his team creamed his team. John’s only comment was wait until next year. What could John say after all?

What kind of victory could John’s team accomplish to get back at Ted’s team and truly be even. One scenario would be that the two teams played again, and John’s team won 128-0. However, Ted could still say to John, ya, you maybe beat us this time, but our worst player ever, intercepted your best player and ran 100 yards in one play.
The victory by John’s team would indeed be super sufficient for beating Ted’s team, but did not perfectly “redeem” or win back all the bragging rights because Ted had one humiliating event on John.

The only way John could really ‘redeem” their loss perfectly would be to win another championship game using all of Ted’s teams minor achievements to win the victory. Their quarterback would pass the ball to their best player and the worst player on John’s team would intercept the the ball and run over 100 yards for the winning touchdown, Only then, would the first loss be fully restored.

So lets look at Satans minor accomplishments
Eve was a virgin in the garden
Mary was a virgin in a garden
Eve told a lie
Mary told the truth
Eve believed the lie and dis obeyed god
Mary believed the angel and obeyed God
Eve became the source of spiritual death
Mary became the source of spiritual life.
Just as Eve was the instrument of the devil to bring about the fall, Mary is the instrument of God to bring about redemption. God not only super sufficiently defeated Satan, but Gosd “undid” all the little accomplishments that Satan had won and gave Satan absolutely No bragging rights. God perfectly defeated Satan, by un doing the fall.
So Mary was God’s INSTRUMENT to bring about our redemption. She like Eve, had to cooperate fully with God’s plan.

 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
If we're going to show respect, let it be on all sides.
The Deacon got a name wrong. That is not disrespect but a mistake.

Some on this thread are calling Catholics devils and the religion of the devil.
Is this having respect??
Apparently not.
 
Jul 8, 2016
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Dear VDP
Ok so far are you with me.

Mary the New Eve
How This Teaching Exalts Christ
It is based on and reaffirms the fact that Jesus is the New Adam, came to undo the Fall of the first Adam.
It also shows the kindness and generosity of Christ. Being God, He could have redeemed the world all alone; but He freely chose to associate a woman with His great work. As sin came into the world by the actions of both a man and a woman, so Jesus decreed that a woman would play a role in the work of redemption .
Gen 3:15 the Protoevangelium
The words "seed of the woman" in a collective sense refer to the promised line of the "holy seed," those men and women who, despite the difficulties imposed upon them through the curse of sin in the world, will remain faithful to knowing, loving, and serving Yahweh. It will be these men and woman who will stand in opposition to the "seed of the Serpent/Satan," the men and woman who oppose the will of God. But the "seed" of the woman can also be understood to refer to one individual who will battle Satan. In the Hebrew phrase it will bruise your head and you will strike its heel, the pronouns are in the singular and not in the plural, and the pronoun "it" can be translated "he, she, or it." In the Septuagint, the pronoun "it" was translated as the masculine pronoun "he." The Hebrew scholars who translated this Hebrew text into Greek in the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] century BC acknowledged that this passage offered the first promise of a future Redeemer who will be wounded in His struggle with the Serpent: you will strike its heel, a Semiticism for "do violence to, or to wound," but the promised Redeemer will crush the head of the Serpent: it [he] will bruise [crush] your head; a Semiticism for "to strike a mortal wound." The words "bruise" and "strike" in the New Jerusalem translation are the same two words in the Hebrew text.[SUP](3)[/SUP]
The Church Fathers called Genesis 3:15 the Protoevangelium, "the first Gospel/ Good news." Genesis 3:15 is the first promise of the coming of the Messiah-Redeemer, born from a woman chosen by God. The Doctors and Fathers of the Church have always identified this woman as the Virgin Mary, who in her perfect obedience to the will of God untied the knot of disobedience of the virgin Eve - the Virgin Mary is the "new Eve:" As Eve was seduced by the word of a [fallen] angel to flee from God, having rebelled against his word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his word. The former was seduced to disobey God [and so fell], but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through the act of a virgin, so was it saved by a virgin, and thus the disobedience of one virgin was precisely balanced by the obedience of another (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.19.1). Genesis 3:15 is the proof that God was not willing to abandon mankind to the rule of sin and death.

the enmity between the ‘woman’ and the serpent cannot be reconciled with sin in the woman: not only with original sin, but with any sin whatsoever,. Any sin at all would constitute a victory for the serpent. This is a basis for ascribing to Mary an immunity from every sin. ( this does not make Mary “sinless” in the sense of a god, but God “persevered” or “saved” Mary prior to her birth.
Whereas Eve helped to plunge the world into sin, and she went along with the serpent, Mary did not go along with the Serpent. In fact Eve was not at enmity with the devil as v. 15 indicates. She was at full enmity with the devil prior to her and Adam's sin. When she sinned, she befriended the devil. When we sin, we befriend the devil. Eve’s disobedience to God but befriending the devil, led to the world’s downfall. Mary’s obedience led to the birth of our Lord and Messiah Jesus Christ. Again, see the contrast of blessing with the woman of v. 15 with the penalties given to Eve:

John 2:2-5

Wedding Feast of Cana

2 Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples. 3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." 4 And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come." 5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

Notice before any miracles had happened, on the eve of beginning his ministry, the specific way that Jesus addresses his mother. He does not address her as ‘mother’, even though she definitely was his mother. He identifies her as ‘Woman’. Of course modern readers can read this as Jesus even being curt with his own Mother. However, it is important that he addresses her in this fashion. Before he goes to Calvary, and even before he goes to begin his mission, he calls his mother as ‘woman’. Now of course Mary had just known that the wine run out and made him aware of that fact. Obviously she expected something to come of her passing this on to Jesus. Although Jesus responded that it was not yet his time her prompting (even if it seems just to inform Jesus that they had run out of wine) actually ends up with Jesus providing his first miracle and apparently the beginning of his ministry to the people. There is much more than that, ‘Woman’. This unmistakingly refers us back to the ‘woman’ of Genesis 3:15.

John 19:25-27

25 So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

Just as Mary was one who was present at the beginning of Jesus’ ministry in Cana, at the end of his life, Mary is right at his side with the apostle John, the only one left of the apostles during his crucifixion. Just before he is about to breathe his last breath, he mentions her as Mother of John, the disciple that he loved, but also directly spoke to her as ‘woman’

Galatians 4:4

4 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law

This is Paul’s only direct reference to Mary, but he knows to refer to her as ‘woman’. Here he indicates implicitly the fact of the virginal conception of Jesus. He writes born of ‘a woman’ in a Semitic society that would usually say ‘born of Jesse’ or born of whoever the man is. Pointing to Jesus as born of a ‘woman’ instead of a man indicates the uniqueness of the incarnation. However, again, Mary is again referred to as a woman, even outside a Johannine context. Thus, the phraseology of ‘a woman’ being tied to Mary has been passed on to Paul, who passes it on to his readers.

Genesis 3/ Revelation 12

, which speaks of a ‘woman’, and Revelation 12, which also speaks of a ‘woman’. The beginning of the passage echoes the prophecy of Is. 7:14 taken up by Micah 5:1-2. As the almah of Isaiah, the woman of the Apocalypse is a sign (semeion). But here she appears in her triumph; the moon “under her feet” seems to indicate that she is raised above the vicissitude of which this constantly changing planet is the symbol. As with Mary in Jn 19:25-27 this heavenly personage is repeatedly designated by the word ‘woman’ (Apoc. 12:1, 4, 12, 13-17). As with Mary, who is taken to be the Mother of Christ, and mother of the disciples of Christ, who are called “the rest of her children” (Apoc. 12-17). This last term is an echo of Gn. 3:14-15, where also the serpent (Apoc. 12:9 and 14) is at war against “the woman” and “her descendants”. Genesis 3:14-15

1) God said to the serpent...

Revelation. 12:9

The great dragon, the primeval serpent known as the devil or Satan...

Genesis 3:15

2) I will make you enemies of each other: you and the woman

Rev. 12:13-14

sprang in pursuit of the woman ... but she was given a huge pair of eagle’s wings to fly away from the serpent into the desert.

Genesis 3:15

3) your offspring and her offspring.

Revelation 12:17

The dragon was enraged with the woman and went away to make war on the rest of her children, (or offspring) that is, all who obey God’s commandments and bear witness for Jesus.[6]

Another parallel between Genesis 3 and Revelation 12

Gen. 3:15

4) he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Rev. 12:5, 11

The seed of the woman, who happens to be Jesus, ascends into heaven, and the Devil is defeated, and it is by his blood (called the blood of the Lamb) through which he crushes the dragon.

The parallels are obvious. First, the devil is spoken of in both Revelation and Genesis. The devil is intricately involved in both of these passages at war with both the Son and woman. The devil is at war both with the woman of Genesis 3:15, and the woman in Revelation 12, who bore a Son, who will be victorious in both passages. The devil will be defeated as both prophesied in Genesis 3, and fulfilled in Revelation 12. In this victory, The ‘woman’ is at the center of both passages. This woman in both instances are mothers.

Since Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is undoubtedly linked, and the person of the woman, is a central figure in both passages, the identity of the woman of Genesis 3 is absolutely important. Now, since Christians identify the seed of the ‘woman’ in Genesis 3:15 as Jesus, it is important to see who this woman is.





 
Jul 8, 2016
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Dear VDP
We also need to see the link between why the Church calls Mary the “New Ark of the Covenant.”

[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"] Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"] The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1-11).

Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"] Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14).

John the Baptist - of priestly lineage - leapt in his mother's womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"] David asks, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9).

Elizabeth asks, "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43).
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"] David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15).

Elizabeth "exclaimed with a loud cry" in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]
The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11).

Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"] The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11).

The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39-45).
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[TR]
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The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God's presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9-11).

Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21-22).
[/TD]
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[/TABLE]
Mary as the Ark Revealed by Items inside the Ark
[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable"]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"] Inside the Ark of the Old Covenant
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"] The stone tablets of the law - the word of God inscribed on stone
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"] The urn filled with manna from the wilderness - the miraculous bread come down from heaven
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"] The rod of Aaron that budded to prove and defend the true high priest
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"] Inside Mary, Ark of the New Covenant
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"] The body of Jesus Christ - the word of God in the flesh
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"] The womb containing Jesus, the bread of life come down from heaven (John 6:41)
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"] The actual and eternal High Priest
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]





 
Jul 8, 2016
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Ok Do I have anyone slightly interested yet!!
1. Mary is revealed to be "full of grace" in Luke 1:28.
2. Mary is revealed to be the fulfillment of the prophetic "Daughter of Zion" of Zech. 2:10; Zeph. 3:14-16; Isaiah 12:1-6, etc.
3. Mary is revealed to be "the beginning of the new creation" in fufillment of the prophecy of Jer. 31:22.
4. Mary is revealed to possess a "blessed state" parallel with Christ's in Luke 1:42.
5. Mary is not just called "blessed" among women, but "more blessed than all women" (including Eve) in Luke 1:42.
6. Mary is revealed to be the spotless "Ark of the Covenant" in Luke 1.
7. Mary is revealed to be the "New Eve" in Luke 1:37-38; John 2:4; 19:26-27; Rev. 12, and elsewhere.
8. Mary is revealed to be free from the pangs of labor in fulfillment of Isaiah 66:7-8.


But what about “all have sinned,” and “if any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him?” Wouldn’t “all” and/or “any man” include Mary? On the surface, this sounds reasonable. But this way of thinking carried to its logical conclusion would list Jesus Christ in the company of sinners as well. No Christian would dare say that! Yet, no Christian can deny the plain texts of Scripture declaring Christ’s full humanity either. Thus, if one is going to take I John 1:8 in a strict, literal sense, then any man would apply to Jesus as well!
The truth is—and all Christians agree—Jesus Christ was an exception to Romans 3:23 and I John 1:8. And the Bible tells us he was in Hebrews 4:15: “Christ was tempted in all points even as we are and yet he was without sin.” The real question now is: are there any other exceptions to this rule? Yes, there are. In fact, there are millions of them.
First of all, we need to recall that both of these texts—Romans 3:23 and I John 1:8—are dealing with personal rather than original sin. Romans 5:12 will deal with original sin. And there are two exceptions to that general biblical norm as well. But for now, we will simply deal with Romans 3:23 and I John 1:8. I John 1:8 obviously refers to personal sin because in the very next verse, St. John tells us, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins…” We do not confess original sin; we confess personal sins.
The context of Romans 3:23 makes clear that it too refers to personal sin:
None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness (Romans 3:10-14).
Original sin is not something we do; it is something we’ve inherited. Romans chapter three deals with personal sin because it speaks of sins committed by the sinner. With this in mind, consider this: Has a baby in the womb or a child of two ever committed a personal sin? No, they haven’t (see Romans 9:11)! Or, how about the mentally challenged who do not have the use of their intellects and wills? These cannot sin because in order to sin a person has to know the act he is about to perform is sinful while freely engaging his will in carrying it out. Without the proper faculties to enable them to sin, children before the age of accountability and anyone who does not have the use of his intellect and will cannot sin. Right there you have millions of exceptions to Romans 3:23 and I John 1:8.
The question remains: how do we know Mary is an exception to the norm of “all have sinned?” And more specifically, is there biblical support for this claim? Yes, there is. Indeed, there is much biblical support, but in this brief post I shall cite just three examples, among the eight, as I said before, that give us biblical support for this ancient doctrine of the Faith.
1. LUKE 1:28:
And [the angel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.”
Many Protestants will insist this text to be little more than a common greeting of the Archangel Gabriel to Mary. “What would this have to do with Mary being without sin?” Yet, the truth is, according to Mary herself, this was no common greeting. The text reveals Mary to have been “greatly troubled at the saying and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be” (Luke 1:29, emphasis added). What was it about this greeting that was so uncommon for Mary to react this way? There are at least two key reasons:
First, according to many biblical scholars as well as Pope St. John Paul II, the angel did more than simply greet Mary. The angel actually communicated a new name or title to her. In Greek, the greeting was kaire, kekaritomene, or “Hail, full of grace.” Generally speaking, when one greeted another with kaire, a name or title would almost be expected to be found in the immediate context. “Hail, king of the Jews” in John 19:3 and “Claudias Lysias, to his Excellency the governor Felix, greeting” (Acts 23:26) are two biblical examples of this. The fact that the angel replaces Mary’s name in the greeting with “full of grace” was anything but common. This would be analogous to me speaking to one of our tech guys at Catholics answers and saying, “Hello, he who fixes computers.” In our culture, I would just be considered weird. But in Hebrew culture, names, and name changes, tell us something that is permanent about the character and calling of the one named. Just recall the name changes of Abram to Abraham (changed from “father” to “father of the multitudes”) in Gen. 17:5, Saray to Sarah (“my princess” to “princess”) in Gen. 17:15, and Jacob to Israel (“supplanter” to “he who prevails with God”) in Gen. 32:28.

the word "hail full of Grace" or "Highly favored One" is difficult to translate into English .
The morphology is verb, perfect, passive, participle, singular, nominative, feminine

Basically means " you who have been graced by God and continues in that grace."
 
Jul 8, 2016
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I have a question:
Would you say that obedience of faith is the same as justification/sanctification?
Or do you understand it to be something different?

Fran
Dear Fran
No, obedience means

THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH
144 To obey (from the Latin ob-audire, to “hear or listen to”) in faith is to submit freely to the word that has been heard, because its truth is guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself. Abraham is the model of such obedience offered us by Sacred Scripture. The Virgin Mary is its most perfect embodiment.

Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 39). Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference.

Justification and sanctification are something different. Catholics do use the terms “justification” and “sanctification” interchangeably, but they distinguish two (actually, more than two) senses in which these joint-terms can be applied.
First, they recognize what is called “initial justification,” which is a single event that happens to a person once, at the beginning of the Christian life and by which one is given righteous before God. Second, they recognize what is called “progressive justification,” which occurs over the course of the Christian life and by which one grows in righteousness.
The Protestant apologist, out of lack of familiarity with the Catholic position, usually jumps on this second phenomenon–progressive justification–and says, “Aha! You see! That’s sanctification! Catholics confuse justification with sanctification!”
But in fact no confusion is going on. Catholics recognize that there are two phenomena; that is why they have given them two different names — initial versus progressive justification. They are not confusing the two events, one instantaneous and one stretched out over time, nor are they confusing the terms; they use the terms consistently, one name for one event, another name for the other. They are simply using the terms differently than Protestants, but it is a logical fallacy of the first caliber to confusing a difference in the use of terms with a confusion in the use of terms.
But there is a second reason why the Protestant apologist’s assertion is false, and this one again springs from a lack of familiarity with the Catholic position, and it concerns the different senses in which the term “righteousness” can be used. Even the Protestants who get past the initial versus progressive issue tend to wrongly assume that what Catholics mean when they talk about progressive justification is what Protestants mean when they talk about sanctification. It isn’t, and the difference between the two turns on the meaning of the term “righteousness.”
For Protestants, the term “righteousness” tends to be used in one of two senses–legal and behavioral. Although they do not always express it in this manner, Protestants will say that in justification one is made legally righteous (i.e., is given legal righteousness by God), but in sanctification one is made behaviorally righteous (i.e., is given behavioral righteousness[2] by God, so that one behaves more righteously than one did before).
The misunderstanding Protestants get into when they look at the Catholic doctrines of initial justification(/sanctification) and progressive justification(/sanctification) is caused by the assumption that Catholic thought on these issues is dominated by the same legal vs. behavioral understanding of righteousness that Protestant thought is dominated by.
Thus the Protestant apologist often reasons to himself like this:
“Catholics believe we are made righteous when we are initially justified, but they do not believe we are made legally righteous, so they must mean that we are made behaviorally righteous at initial justification. They also believe that we grow in righteousness during progressive justification. This has to be growth in behavioral righteousness, because legal righteousness before God cannot grow; you are either legally righteous or you are not. Thus Catholics must mean by ‘progressive justification’ what I mean by ‘sanctification’–that is, growth in behavioral righteousness. However, if it is possible to grow in behavioral righteousness after initial justification, that must mean the Catholic does not believe he was made completely righteous in initial justification. Thus Catholics must believe they are made partially behaviorally righteous during initial justification and then they grow in righteousness during progressive justification, which I call sanctification. Thus they confuse justification and sanctification.”
This is an elegant piece of reasoning, and except for a couple of qualifiers I would want thrown in[3], I would not fault it as a piece of logic. However, like all pieces of logic, its soundness is contingent on the truth of its premises, and the Protestant apologist’s piece of logic is based on a hugely, whoppingly false premise–the idea that Catholics are talking about legal and behavioral justification when they are talking about initial and progressive justification.
Because the Protestant’s thought world is dominated–so far as the idea of righteousness goes–by the concepts of legal and behavioral righteousness, he naturally assumes that when Catholic theologians are thinking about righteousness in the same sort of way. This is the false premise the cases the entire argument to go askew. Catholic thought in connection with the terms “justification” and “sanctification” is not dominated by the ideas of legal and behavioral righteousness. Instead, it focuses on a third kind of righteousness which may be called ontological or real righteousness.
Ontological or real righteousness is the quality which adheres to the soul when one does righteous acts. Its opposite, ontological or real unrighteousness, is the quality which adheres to the soul when one does unrighteous acts. Catholics conceive of guilt and innocence as objectively real properties which cling to our souls just like colors cling to the surface of objects. When we sin, we become guilty and our souls grow dark and dirty before God. But when we are justified, God purifies us and our souls become brilliant and clean before him. Guilt and innocence, righteousness and unrighteousness, are therefore conceived of as properties of our souls
Even though Protestants do not normally use this language to talk about justification, there is no reason why they cannot. In fact, the Catholic will point out that there are very good reasons for Protestants to accept the claim that when we are justified God removes one objectively real property of our souls and replaces it with another.
First, moral realism demands it. Protestants are firm believers in moral realism. Our actions are either right or wrong, good or bad, and they are that way objectively, regardless of how we feel about it. Protestants are the first to agree that moral relativism is a crock. If you commit a homosexual act, it is simply wrong and perverted, no matter what you think about it. It’s just wrong. Wrongness is an objectively real moral property that attaches itself to certain actions.
But for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you intentionally commit a objectively wrong act, then you become objectively guilty. Guilt is therefore an objectively real moral property as well. The same goes for positive moral properties, like righteousness. If you intentionally perform an objectively righteous act then you become objectively righteous. Righteousness, like guilt, is an objective property just as guilt is, and it clings to your soul just in the same way that guilt does.